[M-1,7,15,18] PikMafia - The End! Scum Wins!

[SwordsRbroken]

Hey guys, i'm replacing tom. Give me time to read up on the thread (say sometime by tomorrow) and i will post something.

 

[vanderzant]

@Vand: If you are a girl, I want you to have my babies at this moment. If not, a simple man-hug would suffice.

LOL, I'm all man.

 

[Greenstreet]

Your right pressure doesn't equal lynching. So why knock on my pressuring of actives?

Kirbyoshi, buddying much?

 

[Xivii]

Green it's pretty much because you're not pressuring actives. You saying that you want to lynch somebody inactive does very little in terms of putting pressure on people. Singling people out is what puts pressure on people. I agree with Vanz, what you were doing basically had no effect.


McFox & Sword I'd like to hear your thoughts on everything that has happened so far. Particularly on the discussion between Kat, Swiss, and Vanz about Swiss's vote on Jungle; and the wagon on Green.

 

[Swiss]

I'm not understanding how almost immediately AFTER Green said he wanted to lynch an active, Vanz has thrown a case at him saying he hasn't done anything.

The purpose of what green did, according to him, was to make sure nobody was safe from the lynch (pro town) he deliberately did not state an immediate lynch target as this would have detracted from suspecting everyone (pro town). Had he immediately said he wanted to lynch player X this could ONLY have been pro town had he pushed HARD for a read (almost irrelevant, since he didn't). I think you're being pretty tunnelly at a perceived threat to your scum hunting abilities, and really aren't seeing the big picture.

I agree with this "Pressuring =/= Lynching" but pressure is still unambiguously pro town.

I entirely agree with the principal of what he did, and if people think it wasn't very effective..well that doesn't count as a scum tell imo.


@ Vanz, I'm not buddying. I am however pointing out that I think your case on Green isn't anywhere near as solid as you think it is.

Also, can we look at something else now? TvT guys.

 

[vanderzant]

@Swiss/Green: PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, if either of you can point out WHERE Green went after, or put pressure on an active, I'd be more than glad to see it. If not, we can lynch you.

Unvote

Vote: Riddle

RIDDLE

Just keen for a wagon, after more?

If you want me lynched why? If you just want information from me, carry on.

Good reasoning IMO. Out of the inactive wagons, I like this one the most, because for some reason:

I'm much more down for a Kirby bandwagon out of those. I don't see why you would pick tandora.

There is way too much inactivity in this. tbh I expected a lot more from Jungle and Tom.

unvote vote Ermac

@Zensei: I think we should wagon someone like Tom or Riddle if we're to go the inactive route... especially considering they've been playing in other games. Though Riddle's more active. Also because Jungle's V/LA.

Dark Ermac or Junglefever would be good choices. I am leaning towards Dark Ermac.

I'm fine with Jungle, Tom, or Ermac.

No one really wants in on Riddle. Ermac can get replaced if he's going to ignore this game.

 

[Swiss]

K, I feel you Vanzy baby, get where yo' coming from.

Will vote Riddle once Kat answers me.

 

[Riddle]

I don't like that post at ALL Swiss. In that 2 sentences I see THREE scumtells.

1) Buddying of Vanz. Lots of people think Vanz is town so its beneficial to get on Vanz good side

2) Hopping on an easy wagon. I don't think anyone can disagree that I've been somewhat inactive.

3) WAITING to hop on the wagon. This is the biggest of them all tbh. It gives you a chance to test the waters and see if anyone disapproves of your action discretely while not being on a bandwagon that might not take-off.

Unvote, Vote: Swiss

 

[Swiss]

1) Don't say Vanz is town. He's done scummy things.

2) Well that's your fault.

3) As I want Kat to answer my questions, and feel you could be scum. I have more than one thing going on here, you know.

Strange how you only find scum tells in me when I state I want to vote you. OMGUS much?


Unvote vote Riddle

Kat better answer whatever the hell it was I asked him.

 

[Riddle]

1) You are still buddying him
2) Its my fault you are hopping on an easy wagon with no reasoning of your own?
3) So you think Kat won't answer your questions if you vote me?

Learn to use OMGUS correctly please. OMGUS is voting someone who voted you or suspected you simply because they voted you or suspected you. I pointed out specific scumtells I found.

 

[Swiss]

If they're scumtells I'm a banana.

1) I said Vanz had done scummy things, which is distancing - please read properly.

2) I used my own reasoning in the previous post.

3) Evidently not, seeing as I HAVE voted you and still expect him to answer my quetions. I asked you if you OMGUS'd, I didn't accuse you - why so defensive?

 

[Riddle]

If they're scumtells I'm a banana.

1) I said Vanz had done scummy things, which is distancing - please read properly.

2) I used my own reasoning in the previous post.

3) Evidently not, seeing as I HAVE voted you and still expect him to answer my quetions. I asked you if you OMGUS'd, I didn't accuse you - why so defensive?

1) Saying "K I feel you Vanzy baby, I get where yo' comin from" is buddying
2) You didn't mention me at ALL in your previous post
3) Then why didn't you vote me in the first post? Because you were looking for confirmation, thats why.

Saying 'Omgus Much?' is not asking me if I Omgus'd. Its clearly a rhetorical question.

 

[Swiss]

1) Saying "K I feel you Vanzy baby, I get where yo' comin from" is buddying
2) You didn't mention me at ALL in your previous post
3) Then why didn't you vote me in the first post? Because you were looking for confirmation, thats why.

Saying 'Omgus Much?' is not asking me if I Omgus'd. Its clearly a rhetorical question.

1) Saying he's done scummy things and may not be town is NOT buddying. You're the one who said he was town, so you're buddying him and setting him up for a night kill - pro gaming.


2) I did, I voted for you and gave reasons, you're looking at the post BEFORE my previous post.

3) As I did and still do want Kat to answer me, but the way in which you posted was scummy, as opposed to merely a point of clarification from Kat.

Calling for a Riddle wagon.

 

[Riddle]

1) Saying he's done scummy things and may not be town is NOT buddying. You're the one who said he was town, so you're buddying him and setting him up for a night kill - pro gaming.


2) I did, I voted for you and gave reasons, you're looking at the post BEFORE my previous post.

3) As I did and still do want Kat to answer me, but the way in which you posted was scummy, as opposed to merely a point of clarification from Kat.

Calling for a Riddle wagon.

1) You aren't addressing my point. I'm saying the way in which you said you'd join the bandwagon was buddying vanz. What you say after that is irrelevant because obviously scum would try to seem like they are done buddying.

2) You didn't give your reasons until I called it scummy for you to not have reasons.

3) Then why didn't you vote me the first time? Saying oh I'll wait to vote him because I want Kat to answer a question doesn't make sense. Waiting to get approval for your vote DOES make sense.

 

[Swiss]

You think my reasonaly light hearted post was buddying Vanz, regardless of the fact that I'd spent the last several pages arguing AGAINST his main post.

I wasn't voting you as I wanted to keep some pressure on Kat. However when you made your scummy posts I swapped earlier than I would have.

I fail to see how STATING I would soon be voting for you is seeking approval from anyone.

 

[Riddle]

Because you can back out of it much more easily than you can a vote.

Putting pressure on Kat so he can answer a question?

Yes, I think that specific post was buddying Vanz

 

[Swiss]

I COULD, but it's what I HAVE done you should be looking at, not what I MIGHT have done. Why did you not wait and see what I did, as opposed to having a go at me now? If you really were scum hunting, we both know that's what you would have done, not making a point based on possibilities that didn't occur.

Well I don't think it was buddying. We finally managed to get some common ground in our argument and as such you accuse me of buddying. I've played with him before so may type in a more familiar way with him, but you should know the difference between that and buddying.

 

[Riddle]

I COULD, but it's what I HAVE done you should be looking at, not what I MIGHT have done. Why did you not wait and see what I did, as opposed to having a go at me now? If you really were scum hunting, we both know that's what you would have done, not making a point based on possibilities that didn't occur.

Well I don't think it was buddying. We finally managed to get some common ground in our argument and as such you accuse me of buddying. I've played with him before so may type in a more familiar way with him, but you should know the difference between that and buddying.

Because chances are you would have voted me since nobody would have opposed my wagon. I'm not saying you might have retracted your vote, I'm saying you posted in such a way that you could which is, in and of itself, scummy.

Fine, don't post like that it seems like you are buddying.

 

[Kataefi]

@GreenStreet:- I am not a woman.

I think the best solution to kat-is-woman syndrome is to change my name to DarkLord666 and have a manly avi as opposed to amy winehouse. Who agrees?!

I cited Twilight because everyone's lynchpools in that game became supermassive, reminiscent of what your cross-section might grow into, and town simply lost sight. Adding to this, some cases were made 'just because' and this, imo, served as the platform for scum to jump on/start many optional wagons and keep their options safely open. I felt NKs were made easier because they left very little trails leading to scum resultantly.

Btw, wouldn't you say voting yoshikirby goes against your philosophy of hunting down actives? Your comment that Yoshikirby "leaped from inactivity" is hardly true.
_

@Swiss:- keep defending Green. Swiss/Greenstreet interference is visible. As a sidethought!, this post caught me: #142, notably the wording:

...it was simply necessary for the case on Jungle to have any merit.

Presenting info that was "simply necessary to have any merit" (considering RVS) sounds more like jungle wasn't scummy to you, rather you wanted jungle to be painted as scummy. What do you have to say about this? Also if you were simply pressuring, why didn't you mention that sooner the moment I called you out?

I'm starting to move on now to recent events... what don't you specifically like about the green wagon and the 3 players you gave the finger of ultimate suspicion to? Personally, I see lots of options open to you:- not only do you have 3 people to pick scum from now, but you're also interested in inactives... I think you're the player with the biggest spread of votes across the player list. So who is the play toDay? who are you considering seriously? Could you point out the scummy things Vanz has done?
_

@Riddle:- Since when was Vanz considered town by many? Could you elaborate?

 

[Swiss]

Considering I'm the only guy that's stood against a popular wagon, that's not great reasoning. You're making assumptions on what I could have done if I were scum, and using them as arguments against me.

I wasn't buddying, you either have an incorrect definition or we yet again have a case of you misreading, misunderstanding or skimming posts.

 

[Swiss]

@ Kat the players I FoS'd I did for the reasons I stated, I want a wagon (don't lynch him yet) on Riddle.

I didn't think Jungle was overly scummy, but wanted to pressure him as much as I could (good thing too seeing as he's V/LA for the rest of the day). I thought I did clarify I didn't really think he was that scummy when asked, I couldn't say it too soon as, obv, it would defet the purpose of pressuring him.

Will make a more concise post soon, but I need to pick up a pizza (ftw).


Also, I asked you a question - please answer it (and quote me the question, I have a note of you not answering it but didn't write down what the question was)

 

[Kataefi]

where did you ask me a question?

=?

 

[SwordsRbroken]

I'm wanting to lynch Green because of his "give inactives a chance! Let's lynch an active" attitude. Green, even if hardcore lurkers are town, that is one less useless person to deal with in endgame. Even still, i've been in several games in which scum has lurked to victory. If you need an example, look at newbie mafia 3. Mr. eric was scum, and he lurked most of the game. Whenever he posted, he gave some excuse which was okay at first, but it got to the point where a few people wanted to lynch him. (including me.)

Ermac can go also, as his posts are weaksauce, and he is only posting to avoid prod.

Riddle, your case on Swiss is fail. Kat at least gave some good reasoning to back up his. You are seriously taking Swiss's one comment relating to Vander as buddying?

 

[SwordsRbroken]

Also, Green, defend yourself instead of relying on a claim to save your rear.

@mod request votecount

 

[Greenstreet]

I'm wanting to lynch Green because of his "give inactives a chance! Let's lynch an active" attitude. Green, even if hardcore lurkers are town, that is one less useless person to deal with in endgame. Even still, i've been in several games in which scum has lurked to victory. If you need an example, look at newbie mafia 3. Mr. eric was scum, and he lurked most of the game. Whenever he posted, he gave some excuse which was okay at first, but it got to the point where a few people wanted to lynch him. (including me.)

Ermac can go also, as his posts are weaksauce, and he is only posting to avoid prod.

Riddle, your case on Swiss is fail. Kat at least gave some good reasoning to back up his. You are seriously taking Swiss's one comment relating to Vander as buddying?

Dear this guy, read my wall of text and tell me I haven't tried to defend myself.

Sincerely, Greenstreet

P.S. I never said to give inactives a chance. FUU everyone is equally likely to be scum, people need to stop twisting my words.

 

[Greenstreet]

Green it's pretty much because you're not pressuring actives. You saying that you want to lynch somebody inactive does very little in terms of putting pressure on people. Singling people out is what puts pressure on people. I agree with Vanz, what you were doing basically had no effect.


McFox & Sword I'd like to hear your thoughts on everything that has happened so far. Particularly on the discussion between Kat, Swiss, and Vanz about Swiss's vote on Jungle; and the wagon on Green.

To an extent I agree with this, and am starting to put my view down to bad play, which is a shame, considering the time people have spent focused on it.

The scum are laughing.

 

[SwordsRbroken]

Dear this guy, read my wall of text and tell me I haven't tried to defend myself.

Sincerely, Greenstreet

P.S. I never said to give inactives a chance. FUU everyone is equally likely to be scum, people need to stop twisting my words.

It's mafia, deal with it. Words are always going to get twisted. I wouldn't have jumped on you if you hadn't said just actives blatantly and mentioned swiss or someone else instead, but you just said actives.

I want to see a votecount before i vote greenstreet, just to make sure.

 

[vanderzant]

Well the Green wagon went 1. Me 2. Kirby 3. Tanny 4. Riddle 5. Kat

And I unvoted so I think it's L-3 now. Don't quote me on it though.

Also swords, if you think Green is scummy, do you also think Swiss is scum for buddying/defending him?

 

[SwordsRbroken]

To me, swiss is semi-scummy. Kat's case does have some merit and if green flips scum, Swiss will go higher on my scumlist because of green defending swiss out of the blue.

 

[Tandora]

To me, swiss is semi-scummy. Kat's case does have some merit and if green flips scum, Swiss will go higher on my scumlist because of green defending swiss out of the blue.

I agree with this comment. Swiss and Green have been defending each other throughout the game. I find this extremely suspicious.

Bottom line is Green's behavior is not pro-town. He went a very, very long time on making vague arguments of inactives versus actives while never FOS or VOTING on anyone. He only made arguments on the people who voted against him and never pointed a figure at any other player. And then he taunts the lynch by saying "Put me at L-1 so I can claim."

Swiss and Riddle's long exchange feels like S-v-T to deflect attention from Green's bandwagon.

 

[vanderzant]

Swiss and Riddle's long exchange feels like S-v-T to deflect attention from Green's bandwagon.

Tanny, which would you pin as the scum? Swiss or Riddle?

The exchange seemed almost "forced" to me. Could very well be Scum vs Scum

 

[Swiss]

I fail to see what I have done which is scummy other than defending a player against a bandwagon I honestly didn't believe was in the best interests of town.

Me 'trying to deflect attention' is actually me 'scumhunting' - but I agree what I did to riddle is entirely dependent on my alignment, as scum it would be pure deflecting away from Green. Which could also mean that, as you say; Green, Riddle and I are scum. Is it not curious that whoever I'm interacting with is getting scum accusations thrown at them? Why must I be scum, why must suspicion be thrust upon me?

I can admit that my defending (not buddying, they ARE DIFFERENT) of Green could be taken as a scum move, but yet again there is a more than reasonable town explanation for it - I just didn't agree with the wagon.

Look at my meta game - In newbie 6 I let our scum get lynched D1 and contributed to the lynch, I'm not afraid to let a scum buddy die D1 - I just don't see why the case meant he was scum. Not many scum would stand up against the entire board to defend a scum buddy on D1, let's be honest here..although it's approaching WIFOM, wtf scum would play as I have? It has served ONLY to bring attention to me and not made people less suspicious of Green.

I'm NOT saying Green is certainly town, I AM saying that I DID NOT see why the case = Green lynch.

As for my Riddle encounter, had the Green malarkie not occurred it would look like normal scumhunting - you're using an incorrect suspicion and READING scum into what I did.

 

[Greenstreet]

I agree with this comment. Swiss and Green have been defending each other throughout the game. I find this extremely suspicious.

Bottom line is Green's behavior is not pro-town. He went a very, very long time on making vague arguments of inactives versus actives while never FOS or VOTING on anyone.

I wouldn't have mentioned it again if I hadn't been questioned about it by every active player in the game..

If you think I went on for a long time, look to the people who caused it. As for vagueness, I'll accept the adjective if with reasonable evidence. How was I vague, and if I was, I was only as vague as the questions asked of me.

 

[Riddle]

As for my Riddle encounter, had the Green malarkie not occurred it would look like normal scumhunting - you're using an incorrect suspicion and READING scum into what I did.

You weren't scum hunting. You posted a one-liner saying you were going to vote you and then when I accused you of scumminess you started defending yourself.

@Swords

You can buddy someone in 1 post even if you haven't buddied them the rest of the game.

 

[Swiss]

You weren't scum hunting. You posted a one-liner saying you were going to vote you and then when I accused you of scumminess you started defending yourself.

I was scum hunting.

What do we think looks more likely people, Green or Riddle lynch?

 

[vanderzant]

I fail to see what I have done which is scummy other than defending a player against a bandwagon I honestly didn't believe was in the best interests of town.

Swiss, here are my general notes that I've taken throughout the Day on you (about things I don't like)

-Assumed some players alignments
-Wants to lynch a random lurker
-Kind of dodged questions aimed at him
-Severe lack of suspicion from most people, with regards to the early case on him. Only two people were willing to vote him, yet 5 (and 2 others) jumped at the chance of the Green wagon
-Buddying the **** out of Greenstreet
-Unvoted Jungle once he got a response
-Says tan seems 'townie'
-Defends green. Very blatantly.

It's somewhat chronological, and probably misses a few recent things, but you keep doing 'little things' that send off alarm bells in my head.

I don't expect you to necessarily refute the above, most of it is just my opinion, or what I've summarised, but I can elaborate if necessary.

Me 'trying to deflect attention' is actually me 'scumhunting' - but I agree what I did to riddle is entirely dependent on my alignment, as scum it would be pure deflecting away from Green. Which could also mean that, as you say; Green, Riddle and I are scum. Is it not curious that whoever I'm interacting with is getting scum accusations thrown at them? Why must I be scum, why must suspicion be thrust upon me?

Can you clarify the first sentence (do you mean deflecting attention away from Green?)

To answer your question, suspicion is being thrust on you (by me personally) because I generally don't like a lot of the connections I see between you and other players.

Look at Riddle's #169 for example. He says that he doesn't think that anything scummy came from Kat or Swiss in there earlier argument. Yet, later on in #208 Riddle somehow sees all of these scum tells that swiss has shown, and votes him.

Look at my meta game - In newbie 6 I let our scum get lynched D1 and contributed to the lynch, I'm not afraid to let a scum buddy die D1

I KNOW you're not afraid to bus your scum buddies. And while we're on the subject of meta, I know that as scum you like orchestrating "disagreements" with your scum mates as a bit of a distancing attempt. In newbie 6, you and Clown seemed to quite often disagree on weird stuff, but your disagreements never were substantial enough to garner suspicion from other players.

I can admit that my defending (not buddying, they ARE DIFFERENT) of Green could be taken as a scum move, but yet again there is a more than reasonable town explanation for it - I just didn't agree with the wagon.

Partly why I prefer a Riddle wagon at the moment. Green, while he has made a few questionable plays (or lack of good ones), could be Town, and scum could be trying to bus on him. It's pretty odd to me that no matter how hard Kat (iirc) pushed to get a wagon on you, no one else wanted to join in, even if it was just for pressure.

Yet, green managed to be put at L-2 quite quickly.

As for my Riddle encounter, had the Green malarkie not occurred it would look like normal scumhunting - you're using an incorrect suspicion and READING scum into what I did.

Not sure if this is addressed at me, but I was reffering to where Tandora said that it's Town vs Scum.

I was scum hunting.

What do we think looks more likely people, Green or Riddle lynch?

Riddle imo, but I want to see what everyone else thinks too.

 

[Riddle]

How were you scum hunting?

 

[Riddle]

Look at Riddle's #169 for example. He says that he doesn't think that anything scummy came from Kat or Swiss in there earlier argument. Yet, later on in #208 Riddle somehow sees all of these scum tells that swiss has shown, and votes him.

Those were COMPLETELY separate incidents. Either you are skimming or intentionally misrepresenting my posts. Swiss showed scumtells in that post not in the argument with Kat.

 

[vanderzant]

Those were COMPLETELY separate incidents. Either you are skimming or intentionally misrepresenting my posts. Swiss showed scumtells in that post not in the argument with Kat.

I know they were separate. I'm calling it how I see it. Where and what is a scum tell comes down to opinion as well.

 

[SwordsRbroken]

I'm for lynching either or, preferably green though.