Lucina: Match-Up Discussion (UPDATE: Kirby!)

[spiderfreak1011]

I will say one last thing about the Match up, although i might be a bit biased. I think this match up might honestly be in Shulk's favor over Lucina's given how he can switch things up alot to catch her off guard and use them to take heavy advantage of the range he has over her honestly. She can punish him pretty well though, when he does try using his laggy attacks.

 

[TrueSapphire]

As a Shulk main, I just stumbled here curiously so I can offer my input! This post will highlight Shulk's Monado Arts. (Note: My first time doing something like this.)

Str: Strength
Neu: Neutral
Weak: Weakness

I) Switching Monado Arts

• Most Shulk players will switch Arts at the start of the match (most likely Speed or Buster)
  • Weak: Attack Shulk immediately in the middle of the battle. That will disrupt Shulk's rhythm.
• Monado Art active: (16?) seconds.
• Monado Art cooldown: 10 seconds; now ready.

II) Jump [(+2) Jump Height, (-1) Knockback Defense, (-2) Damage Defense]

Str:

• Recovers very easily, especially with Air Slash.
• Air speed increased.
• Will focus a bit more on air attacks (stylish air game).
• Strong off-stage tactics.

Weak:

• His defense is down! Attack/launch him!

III) Speed [(+2) Run Speed, (-1/2) Knockback, (-2) Damage, (-2) Jump Height]

Str:

• Aerial attacks are more common due to Shulk's low jump height; aggressive playstyle (like me).
• Grabs are common because he's fast.
• The safest Monado Art.

Weak:

• Shield-grab Shulk's aggressive aerial attacks (while I weep...)
• Shulk's damage decreased than normal.
• Off-stage, jump height has decreased a tiny bit when he does Air Slash, but very rare for Shulk to fail.

IV) Shield [(+2) Damage Defense and Knockback Defense, (-1/2) Knockback, (-1) Damage, (-2) Run Speed, (-2) Jump Height]

Str:

• Shulk takes less damage and is harder to launch. Focuses on living and hitting you significantly until you KO him.
• Knockback may have decreased, but can still KO you at high %.
• Literally, his bubble shield is stronger now.

Weak:

• He's very slow! Grab him!
  • But Shulk will jump to avoid being grabbed.
• At higher %, throw/launch him off-stage.
  • Str: A good Shulk player can switch to Jump Art and recover back.
  • Bad Shulk player will fall and fail.

V) Buster [(+2) Damage, (-1) Knockback Defense, (-2) Knockback and Damage Defense)]

Str:

• Attacks increased significantly; aggressive playstyle (like me)
• Continuous grabs and throws are dangerous.

Neu:

• Knockback decreased, but Shulk wants to damage you closely.

Weak:

• His defense is down! Attack/launch him! More effective than Jump Art's debuff.
  • If Shulk takes more hit after Buster mode expires, Shulk failed his Buster strategy!

VI) Smash [(+2) Knockback, (-2) Damage, (-2) Knockback Defense]

Str:

• Attacks (especially KO moves) have more launch power; the most aggressive playstyle.
  • Only used around 80% or above.
• Shulk's Vision is deadly, especially Forward Vision (FV only on ground).

Weak:

• He can be easily launched around 90%! Launch him away!
• Due to Shulk being aggressive/reckless the most in this mode, punish his laggy attacks.

Edit: Decided to remove my final thoughts. I had a suspicious feeling about it ending in a sour note (and I was right after rereading the Shulk discussion), so I sincerely apologize if I have not contribute this Shulk discussion effectively to you Lucina players.

Think of this post as a simplified way to understand Monado Arts when someone explained his post earlier. This is all I can come up with.

 

[Zano]

we know how monado works, we've known since 3ds, people don't need to keep posting what every mode does over and over lol

Also to use a statement like "I don't lose the MU often", you aren't providing MU insight, you're just being obnoxious. Anyone can beat any ol random player regardless of who they use. It's not the character you beat, it's the player. Instead, specifically point out what of yours beats out what of ours in what situations and why it's a big deal and puts the MU in your favor.

 

[Virum]

I will say one last thing about the Match up, although i might be a bit biased. I think this match up might honestly be in Shulk's favor over Lucina's given how he can switch things up alot to catch her off guard and use them to take heavy advantage of the range he has over her honestly. She can punish him pretty well though, when he does try using his laggy attacks.

I actually disagree with this. I feel that both Marth and Lucina beat Shulk in this matchup. While he has the range advantage over both, they have the attack speed advantage and a lot of the time they have the mobility advantage. Unless Shulk's spacing is constantly immaculate (which it won't be as Marth/Lucina can force their way in if they react to how Shulk is spacing) they can pretty much ALWAYS beat Shulk in the air with any properly placed aerial (FAir and BAir being the go to aerials obviously). Let's compare the starting frames of all of Marth and Lucina's aerials compared to Shulk's (note that UAir and DAir are basically irrelevant for Shulk as he's never going to use them to space, pretty much only as finishers.):

NAir: = 6 = 13
FAir: = 6 = 14
BAir: = 7 = 18
UAir: = 5 = 14
DAir: = 9 = 14

And remember, while they don't have as much range as Shulk the range of Marth and Lucina's aerials is still very impressive especially for how quick they come out.

Aside from this, both Marth and Lucina are amazing at capitalising on Shulk's whiffed attacks and pressuring him. Shulk has very few fast options out of shield barring jab and grab, and proper spacing from Marth and Lucina allow them to avoid these as both have poor reach. In addition, Shulk is pretty susceptible to UAir juggles unless he's in Jump. Now the main difference I'd say is that Lucina can get more consistent punishes from various ranges of mis-spacing, while Marth can get stronger tipper punishes if Shulk has mis-spaced himself within a certain range. I'm not quite sure in the end who is slightly better at the match-up though.

The main advantage I feel Shulk has in this match-up is his offstage game is much better and he can edgeguard very well. Consequently forcing Marth and Lucina offstage is going to be a priority as both are quite susceptible to being gimped. In addition while Shulk is susceptible to juggles, the same can be said about Marth and Lucina as well. Shulk's UTilt beats any aerial that either try to throw out and since they're not all that fast or mobile in the air alongside being fairly floaty it's relatively easy for Shulk to read their landing.

As a result I feel this match-up is maybe 60:40 in Marth/Lucina's favour. Though there maybe discrepancies here and there. Feel free to correct me on any of my observations with regards to Lucina by the way Lucina mains. I'm a Shulk main that knows a decent amount about Marth as I've played a lot more as and against him than I have Lucina, so if I'm unjustly conflating information between the two please correct me.

 

[Locuan]

Alright everyone! Thank you for your input on the Shulk match-up! There are differing viewpoints. Therefore, I believe we should return to this match-up discussion at a later date! This discussion period we face off against !

 

[PKBeam]

ok... a good Lucina can make it hard for Ness with her disjoints. I'm pretty sure your Fair beats ours by a hair. so never neglect your spacing. also because you don't want to get grabbed by Ness at any time. 0-50% means comboes, 50-90% means Uthrow juggling and 90 above means Bthrow.

PKF is an excellent setup into a grab. You can up-B or counter out of PKF and comboes but just be sure we aren't foxing you because PKT2 kills at 40 and you don't want to die at 40.

For kill moves, we have Uair, Bair, Bthrow, Fsmash, and PKT2. Dsmash can semispike you and kill at 140. Uair kills at 120 on the ground.

Offstage, don't be too afraid to chase us offstage with Fair/Nair. but be careful if you try to Down-B PKT2. Don't take any risks, even if you are at low %. 25% damage is nothing to laugh at. Likewise, be careful when you're offstage because PKT messes with your Up-B and Uair/Fair/Nair can kill you outright at 130-140, stagespike Bair and Dair spike even earlier.

don't challenge PK Flash unless you are right next to Ness. if that thing is coming down, get away from it because it can kill you at 90. same for PKT, except it kills you at 40.

i haven't played this MU much but i think it's pretty close to even. Lucina has better range but Ness kills better. Both can harass the other offstage.

 

[spiderfreak1011]

Well this is definitely a match up i've come across often (although more often as Marth than Lucina as he's one of my primaries, but despite that i think i can definitely help with this match up), and as i've used Ness and Marth/Lucina before, i think i can definitely help with this.

First off, when it comes to edge guarding Ness, this is something you (as Lucina) NEED to capitalize on, as in the neutral game, i think honestly Ness has the advantage due to his projectiles and grabs. He's pretty easy enough to Gimp anyway, first off, you should know that his Second Jump helps him go up very high compared to other characters and may help his recovery, although if he's launched far enough he'll still have to resort to his recovery move, which for Lucina is really easy to punish. Either:
A) You can go and attack/counter the PK Thunder orb before Ness hits himself, thus letting him fall to his death
Or the more safe option
B) You can walk off the ledge of the stage and time your counter/position so that if Ness hits you, Lucina will counter him and he'll be basically finished with the countered damage/knockback of Thunder Rocket, as it does ridiculous knockback and even if he does survive, Thunder Rocket won't have enough range to come back a second time.
PK Thunder takes about a second to aim before Ness will come back to the stage with THunder rocket, and it's pretty obvious when he's going to use it given that it's his only option. He could try coming directly upwards onto the ledge from below, but you can still counter that easily enough. Although it is a bit risky at higher percents for Lucina, but given how early Ness can kill, you might want to take the chance, depending on your situation.

As for dealing with his Neutral game, i think Ness definitely has the advantage here in keeping you out of range of hitting him and dealing damage to you from his safe range aswell. His
tilts arent much to note, other than his D-tilt can be comboed into a few hits if used repeatedly. His smash attacks are pretty good, Side Smash is really strong but has some start up, so you can block that easy enough. U-Smash has a hitbox that goes around Ness, and can deal damage even when being charged. Same goes for D-Smash, except it starts behidn Ness and covers everything below his hitbox. His grabs are pretty powerful and deadly at high percents (mostly U-throw and B-throw in this case), and a typical combo that you can't get out of with Lucina's hitbox if used at low percents is basically: D-throw > F-air > Ness Short hops/F-air again > F-air a third time. So watch out for his grabs all around.

His specials are also troublesome. You probably won't have to worry about Neutral Special (just stay away from it if he tries to use it, it can kill at 90%, and is risky to try to COunter and hit Ness with it, or punish him when he charges it and itsnot within range of Lucina) and definitely wont have to worry about D-Special (PSI Magnet), but U-Special and especially S-Special are the main obstacles Lucina has to get over in order to rack up damage on Ness. You can dash > shield to get in when he hits you with PK Fire but you will have to watch out in case he tries to grab you. Plus if you get trapped in the Fire, Ness can either hit you with his Side Smash, trap you with another PK Fire, or grab you for more damage. PK Thunder isn't really good as an approaching option on the ground, but when Ness knocks you into the air and he can't get to you easily, he'll typically juggle you with PK Thunder. You can air dodge it, but a good Ness will know to do a loop de loop with the attack so the tail of PK Thunder will trap you and then he can hit you with the actual attack. Although, while Ness may have the advantage on the ground, in the air Lucina/Marth's aerials take priority due to their speed and range, and can rack up damage while they can there.

I'd say definitely on the grounded neutral game, Ness definitely has the advantage, the only real thing you can do is try to get in and deal damage with the tilts/smash attacks when you can. Lucina/Marth's real advantage comes when Ness is in the air to rack up damage with their quick aerials and range, or when Ness gets off stage, as his recovery isn't really that good and he can be gimped by Lucina/Marth pretty easily.

 

[Luco]

You have to be careful where you counter. Trying to counter Ness' PKT2 in its sweetspot will do nothing for you because Ness is invincible during the first half of PKT2 (not sure if it's actually the first half but it's somewhere around there). Thus you should be positioning yourself near the ledge most of the time to get the counter. It's a good strategy though.

Onstage, PK Fire is unsafe for us. People with counters can make following up on PK Fire risky for us; and if we whiff it on your shield then you can punish us accordingly (not usually a fatal mistake but meah). That said; a Ness grabbing you is a bad, bad bad bad bad position for you to be in for obvious reasons. And I'm not so sure that you outrange us in the air anymore. On the contrary, my suspicion is our Fair beats you out; but this could just be the fact that our Fair is a lingering hitbox that comes out quickly and you have to time yours. Anyway, your biggest advantage is probably juggling us; i've felt for a while like we had mediocre tools at best to counter juggling and usually our best bet is to reset to the ledge and try to get back into neutral from there. So that's something you want to capitalise on. Still, delaying a kill on us may prove fatal, as Lucina happens to be very light and Bthrow can and will kill you below 100% with high rage from centre of BF. When edge-guarding, my suggestion is to Fair us out of range of getting the edge with PKT2 - i.e. go for the edge-guard early.

My knowledge of this MU is mostly based around versing Marth (who i've faced in tournament before); my suspicion is that the MU probably isn't too different, the exception being that you guys will likely struggle to handle spacing and killing us more which is two areas you need to win in to make this MU doable. If we're sitting back shielding your Fairs and getting our own in because you're less safe - and killing you more easily whilst living longer ourselves, then yes this MU is an uphill battle for you guys. You want us above you and offstage, basically.

I don't know what i'd put this MU at; but i'd also like to know exactly what the results of Lucina's Fair vs Ness' Fair are because I feel that might actually be reasonably important. Anyway, i'd be happy to listen to other's comments and see what you guys have to say on it. The meta is still very young, all the options aren't necessarily accounted for.

 

[Ranias]

I (a Ness main) haven't played against Lucina or Marth in tournament yet, but fighting them in For Glory nets me a win almost all the time because of projectile abuse and the absence of platforms. I think @ spiderfreak1011 did a pretty good job at explaining the matchup overall.

Lucina trying to land can be covered by either a shield grab or a PK Fire. But I would imagine, like Luco said, that PK Fire would be less safe against high-level players. If the Ness gets shield grab happy, throw in some shield breakers.

If Lucina is far in the air, I always try to go for PK Thunder juggling. Lucina should try to land and punish the Ness for PK Thundering whenever possible. Lucina needs to get out of the air ASAP unless Ness is there too. DO NOT carelessly counter or airdodge; you will get punished.

 

[Shaya]

Nah, you have to counter low/close to Ness, because otherwise Ness will travel through counter to ledge snap faster than we can hit him most of the time.
Maybe it was a bug in 3DS, but if you counter Ness up-b on WiiU he definitely goes into the "I hit something" state.

Ness fair is definitely bigger, it's a pretty obvious thing. It's stupidly huge, it reliably outspaces counter.

 

[Uffe]

I tend to poke at Lucina with PKT at the start of a match to see her reaction. Ness really doesn't have to approach, but when Lucina does get close, her blade can be pretty effective in terms of range compared to Ness' range. Ness' PKF can get Lucina, and rather than countering, she should either pull away or Dolphin Slash out of it. That move is especially good since a lot of Ness' like to PKF > grab. But don't expect them to fall for it if they've dealt with that situation more than once. I think Lucina can do pretty good against Ness. I've faced a lot of Lucina's and I beat them every time. But there was this one Lucina that actually managed to beat me a few times, so I wouldn't exactly say it's in Ness' favor. He does have a lot more options, but a good Lucina can be quite deadly.

I'm not sure how effective her counter is against Ness' PKT2. I know for Marth, it just slaps Ness hard. Of course, Ness can also drop off stage and use nair against Lucina, even when she uses her Dolphin Slash, so recovering low with her might not be a good idea. PKF against her off stage can also be an issue. I can't really say anything else about this match up. What I will say is that it's one that I enjoy.

 

[PKBeam]

I remember that time I Fsmashed a Lucina cause she Up-B'd too high and didn't sweetspot the ledge. That was fun.

 

[Luco]

Nah, you have to counter low/close to Ness, because otherwise Ness will travel through counter to ledge snap faster than we can hit him most of the time.
Maybe it was a bug in 3DS, but if you counter Ness up-b on WiiU he definitely goes into the "I hit something" state.

Ness fair is definitely bigger, it's a pretty obvious thing. It's stupidly huge, it reliably outspaces counter.

Ah, we're talking about two different situations... kinda. If Ness is significantly far away from the stage then yep, counter close to him so that his PKT2 distance is shortened. If Ness is closer to the edge and your first statement is true, then I see no way to edge-guard Ness using counter in that position. I went through our matches a while back and there was a point where I used PKT2 to get back to the ledge. You came out to edge-guard and used counter but Ness went straight through it with the beginning of PKT2 - i.e. it's invincible. I assume Lucina is no different in this regard. :/

 

[PKBeam]

i.e. it's invincible. I assume Lucina is no different in this regard. :/

yep. Ness will hit Counter, the counterer will attack and both have invincibility frames so both of them are unharmed. Because Ness hit a hitbox his distance will be shortened. That's it.

 

[Hyrule Candy]

I don't see this as a good matchup for Lucina

 

[Shaya]

The truth:

We can't beat Ness' aerials head on.
We have to bait and punish his second jump. So know the arc/curve in which it travels and be ready to cover that path when attempting to punish. Either way, it has to be in an advantageous position for juggle attempts and you need to be able to bait a second jump.
Any up/neutral/down air attempts against a ness in the air have to be very careful, him fast falling through you into up air is dumb and reliable as we lag too much and it's hugeeeeeee (especially if he jumps into it from below us).

So shield forward airs, expect dash attacks. You have to go deep every time you get ness off stage. You have to hit him before he can PKT2 or if he's far away from the ledge enough either take the hit and tech or counter at the right time to take his stock.

Ness' "slowness" in some aspects gives us a bit more prep time if you can keep your cool through the sparkles. You should always try to be in a position to back air as it's practically the same frame data as forward air but you can auto cancel it, and it reaches further away and higher, it can definitely outspace nair/fair in a lot of situations.

Get the forward smash punish however you possibly can near or around the edge of the stage at 90%, don't let rage back throw become a fear.

Counter is pretty okay in this match up.
Shield PK-Fire so it doesn't activate. You need to power shield it too if you want to actually gain a positional advantage over Ness for using it (note I say positional advantage and not punish, that move needs more lag )

 

[Zano]

I (a Ness main) haven't played against Lucina or Marth in tournament yet, but fighting them in For Glory nets me a win almost all the time because of projectile abuse and the absence of platforms. I think @ spiderfreak1011 did a pretty good job at explaining the matchup overall.

Swear to ****ing god the next time I have to read a comment like this I'm just going to unsubscribe from here.

WE DO NOT CARE ABOUT FOR GLORY

WE DO NOT CARE ABOUT HOW YOU PERSONALLY BEAT RANDOM PEOPLE OF NO SIGNIFICANCE

WE DON'T CARE IF THEY GET HIT BY YOUR PK THUNDER 20,000 TIMES IN A MATCH

WE WANT ACTUAL REASONING

WE WANT TO KNOW HOW X OPTION BEATS Y

WE DON'T CARE IF YOU MAIN THE CHARACTER BECAUSE QUITE FRANKLY WE DON'T KNOW WHO YOU ARE

He didn't really do a good job explaining the MU because for some reason he thinks we are going to try to counter pkt2.


Ok I'm done being a jerk for now.


Ness does not beat us on the ground, the ground is the **** we control the best. His smashes aren't hitting us, pk fire is laggy as ****, dash attack is w/e and he just has absolutely no way to approach us grounded in general. Idk how his fair matches up to ours, but if it's anything like brawl then he can't beat it out. Space wise we control the MU, but if that was all it took to make a mu in our favor then we would win a lot more.

The important part about Ness is that he's safe with low risk high reward, we're safe if we space correctly, with no real high reward situations. We get a grab at high % against him? Cool, we can maybe get a followup if we get a read. He gets a grab at high %? Cool, you just died. The hard part about this MU is that we have to think about what we do, unlike him, we can't just throw out lagless aerials and follow up, but ness sorta still has the same weakness of being vulnerable offstage. Unfortunately as easy as it looks to just run off and hit him, he's going to know you want to hit him and will react accordingly to you. some examples off the top of my head might be stuff like

if he sees you coming straight at him offstage, he might throw out a fair if he still has his double jump, if you beat him out, he still has his jump and will be able to recover before you can react again depending on %s

if he sees you going above him, he'll assume you are going to try to get hit by the pk thunder and let him fall, so he will either fast fall double jump bair/uair, or simply jump airdodge away from you, the only way that his pk thunder will get hit by you is if he has no double jump to avoid the option

Other players might react differently, people are known to get creative and with ness being dumb and having the ability to pk thunder if he hits a wall during a first one, he can be annoying to deal with on select stages.

I'd say this MU is either 50/50 or 60/40 ness' favor. Nothing overwhelming considering how this MU played out in brawl even without the grab release gimmick, but the nerfs to marth's air game make this a more balanced out match compared to before where we could basically decide the match soley on fair.

 

[spiderfreak1011]

Swear to ****ing god the next time I have to read a comment like this I'm just going to unsubscribe from here.

WE DO NOT CARE ABOUT FOR GLORY

WE DO NOT CARE ABOUT HOW YOU PERSONALLY BEAT RANDOM PEOPLE OF NO SIGNIFICANCE

WE DON'T CARE IF THEY GET HIT BY YOUR PK THUNDER 20,000 TIMES IN A MATCH

WE WANT ACTUAL REASONING

WE WANT TO KNOW HOW X OPTION BEATS Y

WE DON'T CARE IF YOU MAIN THE CHARACTER BECAUSE QUITE FRANKLY WE DON'T KNOW WHO YOU ARE

He didn't really do a good job explaining the MU because for some reason he thinks we are going to try to counter pkt2.


Ok I'm done being a jerk for now.


Ness does not beat us on the ground, the ground is the **** we control the best. His smashes aren't hitting us, pk fire is laggy as ****, dash attack is w/e and he just has absolutely no way to approach us grounded in general. Idk how his fair matches up to ours, but if it's anything like brawl then he can't beat it out. Space wise we control the MU, but if that was all it took to make a mu in our favor then we would win a lot more.

The important part about Ness is that he's safe with low risk high reward, we're safe if we space correctly, with no real high reward situations. We get a grab at high % against him? Cool, we can maybe get a followup if we get a read. He gets a grab at high %? Cool, you just died. The hard part about this MU is that we have to think about what we do, unlike him, we can't just throw out lagless aerials and follow up, but ness sorta still has the same weakness of being vulnerable offstage. Unfortunately as easy as it looks to just run off and hit him, he's going to know you want to hit him and will react accordingly to you. some examples off the top of my head might be stuff like

if he sees you coming straight at him offstage, he might throw out a fair if he still has his double jump, if you beat him out, he still has his jump and will be able to recover before you can react again depending on %s

if he sees you going above him, he'll assume you are going to try to get hit by the pk thunder and let him fall, so he will either fast fall double jump bair/uair, or simply jump airdodge away from you, the only way that his pk thunder will get hit by you is if he has no double jump to avoid the option

Other players might react differently, people are known to get creative and with ness being dumb and having the ability to pk thunder if he hits a wall during a first one, he can be annoying to deal with on select stages.

I'd say this MU is either 50/50 or 60/40 ness' favor. Nothing overwhelming considering how this MU played out in brawl even without the grab release gimmick, but the nerfs to marth's air game make this a more balanced out match compared to before where we could basically decide the match soley on fair.

I agree with your reasoning, and i definitely think you know more on this match up than i do, but i will say that while countering PKT2 might not be an option alot of Lucina's/Marth's may use, it's still useful in slowing down Ness's Recovery and getting a KO, as it's basically a body block without taking the damage or knockback from the attack. Besides, it's useful in taking him out if you're willing to be a bit risky. Also, how does me stating that option = i did a bad job explaining the MU? If you're going to critique my take on this MU, you should probably get a bit more specific on what i failed to explain well, lol.

 

[PKBeam]

I'm pretty sure he was talking to the person he quoted.
EDIT: oh one last thing Lucinas. Never ever ever ever try to counter PK Flash.

 

[spiderfreak1011]

I'm pretty sure he was talking to the person he quoted.
EDIT: oh one last thing Lucinas. Never ever ever ever try to counter PK Flash.

Nope, the last person he quoted never brought up countering PKT2, he was talking about me.

 

[PKBeam]

Nope, the last person he quoted never brought up countering PKT2, he was talking about me.

Look through their whole post.

anyway this is going off topic, so....

er.... our Uair kills you at 120 from the ground.
oh and Nair beats Fair.

 

[spiderfreak1011]

Look through their whole post.

anyway this is going off topic, so....

er.... our Uair kills you at 120 from the ground.
oh and Nair beats Fair.

Well thing is, Zano only quoted this part of his post: "I (a Ness main) haven't played against Lucina or Marth in tournament yet, but fighting them in For Glory nets me a win almost all the time because of projectile abuse and the absence of platforms. I think @@spiderfreak1011 did a pretty good job at explaining the matchup overall."

He brought me up in his post, and Zano said that he/she didn't think that i did a good job of explaining the MU and brought up that one piece of my advice in the MU is to counter his PKT2 when recovering. In Ranias's full post, he didnt once bring up PKT2. So, i logically came to the conclusion that Zano was referring to me in the last sentence. : \

But yeah, off topic, back to the MU. Sorry guys.

 

[Ranias]

Swear to ****ing god the next time I have to read a comment like this I'm just going to unsubscribe from here.

WE DO NOT CARE ABOUT FOR GLORY

WE DO NOT CARE ABOUT HOW YOU PERSONALLY BEAT RANDOM PEOPLE OF NO SIGNIFICANCE

WE DON'T CARE IF THEY GET HIT BY YOUR PK THUNDER 20,000 TIMES IN A MATCH

WE WANT ACTUAL REASONING

WE WANT TO KNOW HOW X OPTION BEATS Y

WE DON'T CARE IF YOU MAIN THE CHARACTER BECAUSE QUITE FRANKLY WE DON'T KNOW WHO YOU ARE

He didn't really do a good job explaining the MU because for some reason he thinks we are going to try to counter pkt2.


Ok I'm done being a jerk for now.

Wow, I didn't expect to get such a negative reaction. I didn't mean to sound braggy about beating randoms. I only talked about For Glory because that is the only place I've played vs. Marth/Lucina. I'd rather talk from experience than from conjecture.

You also talk as if you are everyone, but you really are just one person with one opinion. As am I. I could be wrong. You don't need to get so worked up about it. (All caps? Really?)

I thought that with a great number of opinions, you all could come up with a better conclusion. After all, the only reason I posted was because I was asked to.

 

[Locuan]

Happy new years everyone! It's time!

 

[Hyrule Candy]

I think the Matchups in lucinas favor because she has more range and kill power. Even though he got heavier slightly, Hes still light which is good and he lost a lot of kill power. Lucina is also faster which is good. I see it as 60to40 in lucinas favor

 

[Locuan]

Sorry for the delay everyone but I was caught up this weekend on a tournament where I both competed and commentated. Back on topic, there was no discussion for Meta Knight so we will have to come back to this match-up at a later date. This discussion period we will focus on the character match-up for Mega Man! Let's get started!

 

[CopShowGuy]

I was summoned here from the Mega Man boards. For now, all I'll say is don't think catching Mega Man's Metal Blade is going to harm him much. Sometimes we count on the opponent catching them so that we may rob them of their standard attacks.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I believe this one is slightly in Mega Man's favor, in the realm of 6-4.

Marth and Lucina are fast and powerful, but they have a heck of a time dealing with all of Mega's zoning options, and they have to take risks to approach, which Mega can exploit.

Offstage, Mega is surprisingly hard to edgeguard as his recovery is really not 1-dimensional (although some worse Mega man players do the same thing over and over). He can also recover from lower than Marth/Lucina can safely chase him. Mega can edgeguard Lucina somewhat but same story, it's a bit of a guessing game and risk.

So:
Mega wins the neutral somewhat
Lucina wins the damage output war slightly
Mega wins the offstage game slightly.

 

[ChopperDave]

Hello Lucina boards! Another Mega Man main here.

I feel like this is a pretty tough matchup for Lucina, and definitely in MM's favor (though I won't attempt a guess at how much).

At the end of the day both characters are spacers, and Mega Man simply has more range on his spacing tools. Our pellets outrange your jabs, ftilts, and nairs, our uair beats your dair and can be a deadly approach tool, our fsmash outranges yours and has transcendent priority, and our flame sword has more or less the same range as your sword (maybe a little less). Z-dropped Metal Blades and Leaf Shield give us additional ways to approach safely. Meanwhile, our standing grab range is really good, meaning that if you don't space your approaches well, we gon' grab ya. In general, I think Mega Man's spacing game is more forgiving than Lucina's and he doesn't have to work as hard to maintain the optimal range.

We've also got solid offstage game. When returning to the stage you need to be wary of z-dropped Metal Blades, which can be used to clash with your hitboxes, bait air dodges, and/or hold you in place before we fair/bair/dair you. Leaf Shield aided footstools are also a gimping tool we can bring against you, though Lucina's UpB gives her better defense against that technique than most characters. Meanwhile, our recovery is gimpable by your dair but can also be unpredictable, especially since we can wall jump.

Also, be careful using Counter in this MU, especially when MM has Leaf Shield up. Mega Man can easily shield/dodge and then punish Counters triggered by Leaf Shield.

My advice to a Lucina would be to stick to the air, as we can lock down your ground game fairly easily. I played a good Lucina once who would jump up and bait my fair, staying just out of range, then punish with a fair. In general that's the kind of game you have to play against MM--bait him into making a mistake, then punish him during the end lag.

 

[Langston777]

6-4 megaman.

this is a very long and patience requiring MU for both characters. neither have reliable kill options for either one. megas tend to go for a random uncharged fsmash to knock marth/lucy off stage. it's hard to punish but hard to get hit by as well unless you dash right into it or short hop towards it. as people have stated before, expect to see a lot of offstage gimp attempts. that's really how the match up is going to go down.

i fought a mega that was trying to force a wall with metal blades and fh fairs. got too predictable and ran right under him for a few usmashs. a hard read, but it worked. since both character's fairs are roughly the same in range, it's just a matter of who swung first.

i've also found nair to be quite useful for approaching lemons. it covers short hopping lemons and grounded lemons both pretty well, and when spaced well is safe on block(?).

since metalblade, lemon, and fsmash mixups can be troublesome with approaching, my best advice to marth/lucy's is to just be very patient and bait as many approaches as you can from megaman. if you get momentum, do not lose it. be very diligent in your spacing. you really have to use all your tools here.


I REALLY want to fight another megaman soon though, i feel like megaman has some holes in his wall that would allow for good trades with Marth and Lucy, like the tipper usmash i mentioned before.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Here I come !
Like @ ChopperDave said, the best thing to do is to approach MM from the air, but be careful or you might just end up eating our Nair.
Try to get close since Lucina wins at close range if we don't stay mobile ( can't say for Marth cuz tippers ). Overall, megaman has the advantage, but it isn't an impossible matchup at all ^^

 

[Zano]

>approaching megaman from the air

ok, have fun with that

 

[ChopperDave]

>approaching megaman from the air

ok, have fun with that

Hey, I said it was probably your best option

I never said it was a particularly good or fun one

 

[Zano]

you don't really have a good approach option against megaman, but the air is by far your worst choice. You never ever want to be in the air against megaman unless you like to give him free damage.

 

[ChopperDave]

you don't really have a good approach option against megaman, but the air is by far your worst choice. You never ever want to be in the air against megaman unless you like to give him free damage.

Speaking as a MM player, that's not true. I tend to have much more trouble dealing with air approaches than ground approaches.

Fair is decent anti air, but only if it comes out first and if I don't whiff. If I do whiff it's easy to punish.

Diagonally thrown MB can be caught, oftentimes as a happy (for the approacher) side effect of using an aerial against me.

Uair can be decent antiair, but doesn't have a big enough hitbox to stop many disjointed approaches.

Usmash can be good but the hitboxes are unreliable and it's very punishable on whiff.

Dsmash and utilt are SUPER punishable on whiff.

Nair can be jumped over or batted away by meaty disjoint attacks, including Lucina's fair.

My best option is usually to shield and then grab or JC usmash, both of which can be baited or punished.

Basically the common refrain here is that Mega Man has some decent but not great antiair options, all of which are situational and all of which can be baited and punished. The opposite is also true: MM has a LOT of approach options, so it can be easy for him to bait and punish bad reactions. The best opponents I've encountered (including Marths and Lucinas) are the ones who pressure me hard, bait me into using the wrong defensive option, and punish me for it. If I'm the one doing the pressuring and my opponent is the one defending, that usually means he's losing.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Gotta disagree there. I think Megaman has a stellar anti air game.

imo Lucina is going to be approaching with a lot of dash shield in the matchup.

 

[Zano]

maining a character doesn't not mean you are a know all of the character, and if air approaches are what you have trouble with you're clearly playing the character wrong, or don't realize that pellets are one of the best moves in the game.

 

[ChopperDave]

I'll defer to you guys' experience on this one. I guess my antiair game needs some work.

I do agree that pellets are one of the best moves in the game and a solid antiair threat.

In my experience, a solid disjoint -- like most sword users' fairs -- is still threatening because they can both space MM's nair sweetspot and power through the pellets, hitting him safely. But that may just be poor timing or spacing on my part.

 

[Langston777]

i agree with these guys as well. against megaman, i find myself doing a lot of mid-range shielding and reacting to megaman's followups on his projectiles. if i'm in the air in footsies, it's usually a defensive nair, to hopefully stuff megaman's fair.

 

[CopShowGuy]

Nair and usmash are some of my favorite anti-air attacks for Mega Man. Nair can frequently be beaten out by disjoints like ChopperDave said. Usmash is fantastic, but only if it hits. If it misses, you'll be hurt.