Lucina: Match-Up Discussion (UPDATE: Kirby!)

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Shaya

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#84
From wifi experience, roll, boomerang and jab is a pretty alright character.
I can't really put anything else to it but knowing most of the stuff I find annoying is considerably easier with power shielding (and his stuff is still slow enough to react to). Just the amount of times I've dash shielded into point blank range boomerang and haven't been able to grab him [def blame lag] and then whoop 5 rolls McGee just generally has me avoid playing it at all online, if they play the lamest way, I just quit out or go Falco and 2 stock them while only taking sub 20%.

I think his weight + better kill power will edge it in his favour, but Lucina shouldn't have much issues approaching, but has to be careful of Link's speed and range of sword attacks which can easily trade/out reach if you're not precise. He doesn't really have any answer to full hop fair (his mobility doesn't let him capitalise on having 3 projectiles in an area at once like Toon Link, and he can't really dash forward and try to do anything either) that I've seen except maybe in customs-land.
 
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Locuan

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#85
I will try to offer my input as objectively as possible since this is the match-up I have the most experience with. Link is a difficult match-up for Lucina for various reasons:
  1. Projectiles
  2. His sword moves have good range.
  3. Zair is also added into the spacing move-set Link has.
In other words, Lucina has to approach Link. Now Lucina does indeed have moves that cancel out Link's boomerangs and arrows. And yes you are able to catch bombs. However, a good Link player will mix up how he uses his projectiles which will mess up your timings. You will be hit with projectiles throughout the match.

I have found it to be most effective by having Link be in D-Tilt range and moving back and forth in between this area. While he has moves that can out range Lucina's D-Tilt, this range can give you more breathing room. You are cutting Links projectile options. If the Link player decides to use one you can punish him/her at this range. However, a good Link player knows how powerful his jab's are and the setups that these can lead into. Don't underestimate the range on those jabs either! There are many jab setups, jab > Dsmash, jab > grab, traditional jab x3 etc. This range can go pretty much even for both in the neutral game. The one who lands the first hit ends up having the advantage. You have plenty of options too though, Fairs, D-Tilts, retreating Dancing Blades etc. The link player will want to reset this range against you though so be wary.


Another important observation regarding has been Link's Dair. It is very difficult to trade with this move in the air if you space incorrectly. Additionally, the hit-box seems to be out eternally and it will catch the opponent off guard if not expecting it. If the Link player hits your shield with Dair he can bounce off twice on it. Yet, if you time it correctly and drop the shield after the first bounce, you can Usmash out of shield to punish effectively.

As Lucina, you need to walk. Never dash in this match-up. You are cutting off a lot of moves against a Link player who has many against you. You need to be able to jab, F-Tilt, D-Tilt etc. etc. at a moments notice. Every second counts on this match-up.

Due to the amount of tools Link has, and the constant nature of Lucina having to be the one to approach against such a character Link is clearly in the advantage. His projectile game makes it even more annoying on the long run. However, if Lucina is able to get into the D-Tilt spacing zone against Link, it turns into an even-ish neutral game. For these reasons, Id have to say the match-up is 35-65, 40-60 at the least, in Link's advantage.

EDIT:
maybe in customs-land.
Adding to my original analysis. With customs, the match-up becomes way easier. I have plenty of games with custom moves on against Link and Dash Assault does wonders in the match-up. It's way easier to get in the range you need to be to cut Link's options. In all honesty, while I still believe Link has the advantage it would be closer to a 45-55 match-up. Lucina's recovery becomes even better with just Dash Assault alone. Adding upB3 makes it even better.
 
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#86
He doesn't really have any answer to full hop fair (his mobility doesn't let him capitalise on having 3 projectiles in an area at once like Toon Link, and he can't really dash forward and try to do anything either) that I've seen except maybe in customs-land.
He has zair, nuff' said. Unless Lucina is fairing right on top of him in a way where he can't hop out and beat it out, zair outranges her fair completely. Lots of people tend to forget that tool exists. lol
 

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#89
This one can be annoying if you are playing it in For Glory mode. Lag plus being forced on FD? eeek. I think Lucina does fine overall in the MU, but that's just an example how it can get really dumb and turn into cat n mouse...in lag.
 

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#91
Yeah, nothing about this match up screams abusive on any side. Weight/power is the only thing that's going to be making Lucina work harder than Link is. I otherwise feel that if you're confident in this match up offline, you'll be power shielding a lot of his projectiles and only otherwise have to respect Jab's range, which I think considering it's one of those "only options" (even if it is really good), it just isn't great enough to dissolve higher level play by itself.
 

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#93
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#94
Hey I just posted that you guys were looking for Link matchup vs Lucina in the group social, hopefully you'll get more people talking here.

Also this thread is really good.

Here's some vids from our video thread.

Powerstar9:4link: vs. Elessar :4lucina: [1 on FD G&W] - http://youtu.be/iWom_6zhlR8
Powerstar9:4link: vs. Elessar :4lucina: [2 on FD G&W] - http://youtu.be/HNKynRg-Kd0
Powerstar9:4link: vs. Elessar :4lucina: [3 on Battlefield] - http://youtu.be/ec_MhcL91SE

thedoctr :4link: vs. Mike :4lucina:
http://youtu.be/OI28t51UpKs
Eh, I don't think these were the best example of the matchup tbh. Elessar kinda threw out moves randomly and got punished for them (sideB and counter), while thedoctr over-committed on a lot of "followups". His dair edgeguard was really good, though.
 

Locuan

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#95
The discussion period for Link is now over. During the weekend we will focus on the match-ups that where previously discussed.
 

IzE

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#98
I think our best bet is shield breaker or dancing blades to either stun, knock away, or lock up luma while still pressuring Rosalina shielding option. Luma really puts a damper on the punishment game with spaced jabbing, breaking/punishing our throws, and disjointed uair juggles preventing us from hitting the ground.
 
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IzE

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Rosa stuff: (Tested mostly by me, write up courtesy of Xaltis)


Rosalina:

Nair damage got a slight nerf in percent it does.

Grab got a cooldown increase

Down Smash cooldown increase

Forward Smash Slight start up Increase? (We couldn't get a 100% for sure answer on this)

Luma:

Gains 15 more HP

Shoots a shorter distance with fully charge Luma shot. (Which is better)

Comes back faster when you call him back.

Luma shot got cooldown decrease.

Can still break grabs.

Doesn't do anything that the Wii U help tip says about him.

On stages with walls that go all the way down. (Yoshi's Island Brawl, and other Omegas) if Luma doesn't make it back to the stage with his 3 jumps, he will fall to his death, but on stages with these walls instead of dying, he glitches back to the middle of the stage.
Reevaluation?
 
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In the interests of full disclosure, my Lucina experience is basically all For Glory, so keep that in mind for this post. FD only, no customs, etc.

Truthfully...I've never struggled against a Lucina. Her lack of tippers means that I don't have to worry about my spacing as much as when I'm facing Marth, and Shield Breaker needs at least a partial charge to oneshot a shield (unless that got changed in 1.0.4). Simply shielding an approach and then grabbing or poking back with my own tilts is usually enough, at which point all I really have to fear is Lucina grabbing me out of shield and being overzealous with followups and eating a Counter.

Without Luma it is harder for me to properly space myself so that you can't hit me right back since Rosalina likes to extend her body for a lot of attacks.

Also even if you do get a shield break, Luma can still use jab and tilts while Rosalina is stunned so she's not completely free.

I'm unfamiliar with any buffs Lucina may have gotten in 1.0.4 so apologies if something is outdated.
 

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I've heard that Lucina has a much better time dealing with campers than Marth does, given that she is faster and can afford to play aggressively, though I could be wrong. I'd say the match up vs is like 35 - 65 in Rosalina's favor.
 

Locuan

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I've heard that Lucina has a much better time dealing with campers than Marth does, given that she is faster and can afford to play aggressively, though I could be wrong. I'd say the match up vs is like 35 - 65 in Rosalina's favor.
Lucina and Marth both have the same run speed and walk speed. You can find any differences, similarities between them here.
 

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Really don't think this one will be bad on wii u. 3DS controls drive me nuts in this MU though because you need to be really precise with your movement and where you decide to land. Upair out ranges all of our moves though I think. You either need to shield it or get out of the way.
 
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M@v

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Well I mean, Rosalina actually gets punished now for over extending with Luma now, aka the way it was supposed to be from the beginning. So there's that at least!
 
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Well I mean, Rosalina actually gets punished now for over extending with Luma now, aka the way it was supposed to be from the beginning. So there's that at least!
FWIW I didn't notice a massive difference in my brief For Glory stint after the update. Luma took a bit longer to come back but Rosalina can play defense just fine on her own. The rest of the nerfs...eh, maybe? I'm more interested in the removal of vectoring, that'll open up a lot of possibilities for everyone.

Does anyone know the hitboxes on Lucina's Counter move? It occurs to me that Rosalina has a bunch of disjoints and may or may not be able to space herself or Luma to trigger the counterattack but not get herself hit by it. Mostly utilt/uair/dair/Luma in general, I can't see it working with her tilts or something like that.
 
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Locuan

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Alright, on the weekend we will focus on previous match-ups. There should be a few things to discuss due to all of the patch changes!
 

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Ok, so due to the patch changes last week I do not know if it would be wise to start the match-up discussion for other characters this week. So I would like to take this week to review the previous match-ups and how the changes went for those other characters. I will also not update the OP with the information for Rosalina because of the same reason.

If possible I would like everyone to engage in discussions for the previous characters and Rosalina this week to see if any changes have to be made and then start the discussion for another character next week.

However, if most of you decide its better to go with another character discussion I will retract the previous statements and go on with the next character discussion.
 
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So I was watching the Zerg vlog from earlier this week (you can find it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GBrXwQnv6w ) where he talks with people from the first weekend Wii U Invitational hosted by Sky about the tournament and Smash 4 in general. At 3:30 in the video he talks to Salem about learning how to beat Rosalina and he mentions that he thinks Marth and Lucina have a good matchup against her.

Do you guys know what would make him think that? It seems like you guys have generally agreed that Rosalina has the advantage against Lucina but here's a video where players far better than me think the opposite. Personally I've had little trouble with Rosalinas online since the nerf (being able to actually take advantage of a dead Luma is nice), but that's just my personal experience and not necessarily a great reflection of the matchup as a whole.

Any thoughts on what advantages Lucina could have on Rosalina that would make a top-level player claim she has an advantage in the matchup?
 

Locuan

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Why is that Banana peel on the floor? Ah I see, it's :4diddy:week!
Any thoughts on what advantages Lucina could have on Rosalina that would make a top-level player claim she has an advantage in the matchup?
There has not been much discussion on Rosalina & Luma here. Hopefully, in the future, we will get more discussion going on as more tournament results, experience, etc., start coming in.
 

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Ugh I think poor Lucina has trouble with Diddy, but I don't think it's impossible, not by any means.

Lucina has great aerial follow ups, and I think a key point in the Lucina Diddy match up, is for Lucina to stay grounded, much like many of her match ups.

Now on the ground, the main issue is Diddy's grab, which you can stop via dtilt and jab, or a well timed grounded up B, when diddy is above mid %. Otherwise this match up is trouble. Another thing that works is that Lucina can go offstage and hit Diddy away, might even be able to counter his barrels and side b recovery.

I can see this in Diddy's favor 55-45 or even 60-40 at worst.
 

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I think in reality, without customs around, it's probably 65-35 Marth's favour, if not worse. Customs help even it out considerably as dash assault can be played to its strength and doesn't benefit one character over the other. But even then... yuck...
It's almost impossible not to trade hits in Marth dittos, it's what makes them stupidly fun, scary and dumb at the same time, when the power of a tipper that looms over your general reach that can kill well before your current actions; I've probably played tens of thousands of Marth dittos and this dynamic of "any miss use of commitment is perfectly spacing yourself for getting killed as early as half the percent I'm currently at" is what defines it, and when one character has that while the other does not... Lucina feels excruciatingly gimped.

If you're a better Marth player, than you can out play your opponent with Lucina no problem, you're likely a better spacer and can continually punish/out do them in such a way that the tipper advantage is nullified. But the moment I think of two even-ish players, I see almost no hope for her.

I legitimately would not be surprised if Marth ends up being one of if not Lucina's worst match up in the game. The risk/reward factor at both character's optimal play is just disgustingly skewed in Marth's favour.

If you experience this match up just once in tournament I would not be surprised if you swear off it forever. Enough Marth mains past and present outright refuse to play Marth dittos in tournament because of how volatile they are due to tippers; I really cannot see why you would want to put yourself through it ever when you cannot do the same thing back to him.

And on a personal level, Marth dittos would have to be close to my most played match up throughout my entire smash history. I decided early on I would play it in tournament and that I refuse on my pride to ever lose one. it takes a lot of work to be confident enough to play a match up that is ultimately extremely close to gambling 50/50s with your stock on every action you take.
When I see you again, let's mm brawl marth ditto. I've actually been priding myself on being great at the Marth ditto and have been challenging every competent marth I can find, and winning to boot. I actually like Marth dittoes, I dont get the hate haha, I trust my spacing to get me through
 
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Having played around 1000 games on just lucina (700 on 3ds and the rest on wiiu), my friend gave me trouble on his first few games ever on diddy. I may have won most times, but It feels very uphill, I'd give it a 60-40 in favor of diddy.

Assuming both players are decent at conditioning the other, diddy gains much more from the trade. Having banana and a command grab leaves him with so many more approach options than Lucina.

Lucina
- Fair/Bair
- Side B
- Grab

Diddy
- Banana throw
- Side B (non kick)
- Side B (kick)
- Grab
- Fair
- Popgun

This is an example of the two being in neutral in VERY layman terms, where they hard approach and use a basic move, so I'm not counting reads, predictions, pokes, or strings or any kind. Just by looking you can see diddy has so many options open to him, without a doubt he will have the advantage if Lucina is even slightly predictable or off her game. Counting poke doesn't open many doors for us either, as diddy's poke game is fairly strong and sets up into easy strings.

The game is also as good as done if diddy also conditions or reads any up-b's used to break strings or used in desperation.
Dthrow to uair/fair kills are obviously a problem, but that goes for most of the cast. It's fortunately one of his few reliable kill moves, so on the receiving end at higher percents, you can be sure that an approaching diddy is going to fish for it over other options.

Overall a doable match-up, but it's looking pretty gloom without nerfs to dthrow or uair anytime soon.
 

Locuan

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Eh, not enough discussion. While there is good information on this match-up I feel inclined not to go ahead and update the OP just yet with Diddy data. Regardless, it is time to move on to the next discussion. As such, :4falco: has come to grace us with his presence. It's Falco week!

NOTE: I will be out next Monday for the whole day. I will be traveling back home. For this reason, the thread might not be updated on Monday with the new match-up discussion. You guys can take that day to decide on the next match-up and discuss it if you would like and I will update the thread accordingly on the following Tuesday.
 
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eshu125

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I actually struggle a bit in this matchup. Jab, bair and ftilt make it hard to approach and I sort of just get walled out. Before I know it I've taken a ton of damage. The good news is that falco has virtually no way of edgeguarding lucina so she has that going for her
 
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