Lucina: Match-Up Discussion (UPDATE: Kirby!)

[Macchiato]

She doesn't really KO well(what are her KO moves?) We can KO onstage better

WAT

Lucinas Usmash and Fsmash are both MUCH stronger than all of kirbys smashes. Her Fsmash kills Mario in the middle of FD with no rage at 90%, Usmash at 95%. Due to Kirby being much lighter, they probably kill him at like 70%. NO. Killing Kirby is much easier

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

WAT

Lucinas Usmash and Fsmash are both MUCH stronger than all of kirbys smashes. Her Fsmash kills Mario in the middle of FD with no rage at 90%, Usmash at 95%. Due to Kirby being much lighter, they probably kill him at like 70%. NO. Killing Kirby is much easier

Um if that's the case wow, but Kirbys smashes are nearly just as powerful so......you can't say hers are MUCH stronger, at least only slightly, plus that Usmash can't really send grounded opponents high right? Only when they are above her.
Do any of her Ariel's KO? Does her Dair meteor smash? idk....

 

[Macchiato]

Um if that's the case wow, but Kirbys smashes are nearly just as powerful so......you can't say hers are MUCH stronger, at least only slightly, plus that Usmash can't really send grounded opponents high right? Only when they are above her.
Do any of her Ariel's KO? Does her Dair meteor smash? idk....

Actually yes they kill about 20% earlier than Kirby kills her. Usmash can bring grounded opponents up to the second Hitbox, the ground Hitbox is huge. Uair kills depending on how high she is, and yes Dair spikes. Also stone isn't a good edgegaurd tool on her, Kirby transforming is slow and Lucinas recovery is very fast and fast enough before stone tranforms and gets down.

 

[Nilloce]

Please stop. The last thing we need is a flame war over this, every character has their differences. (talking to Dee-SmashinBoss btw not Macchiato)

 

[Macchiato]

Please stop. The last thing we need is a flame war over this, every character has their differences.

Lol we're not starting a flame war, I'm just informing him some stuff that he didn't know. It's not like we're actually arguing. We're just telling each other probably what we don't know about each character. We won't start a flame war.

 

[Nilloce]

Lol we're not starting a flame war, I'm just informing him some stuff that he didn't know. It's not like we're actually arguing. We're just telling each other probably what we don't know about each character. We won't start a flame war.

Alright my bad, for some reason when I read Dee-Smash's comments I felt they had this rude attitude toward them, but hey its just text so... My B

 

[Macchiato]

Alright my bad, for some reason when I read Dee-Smash's comments I felt they had this rude attitude toward them, but hey its just text so... My B

It's fine, I see why. I've seen some flame wars and it ain't pretty. There was a thread that was like "I want to destroy Rosalina" I would say that things like that would be a bait for a flame war. I think a flame war is if someone insults their character like if one of us says "Lucina/Kirby sucks and can't do anything"

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Actually yes they kill about 20% earlier than Kirby kills her. Usmash can bring grounded opponents up to the second Hitbox, the ground Hitbox is huge. Uair kills depending on how high she is, and yes Dair spikes. Also stone isn't a good edgegaurd tool on her, Kirby transforming is slow and Lucinas recovery is very fast and fast enough before stone tranforms and gets down.

I just tested and Kirby Usmash kills Mario at about 100%.........Fsmash at 107%
On Lucina, Usmash 98% Fsmash 103% so meh...?
There are 2 hotboxes on Usmash? Wow that's weird

 

[Macchiato]

I just tested and Kirby Usmash kills Mario at about 100%.........Fsmash at 107%
On Lucina, Usmash 98% Fsmash 103% so meh...?

I just tested for Lucina and
Usmash 85% on FD
Fsmash 77% on FD
Lucina can gimp Kirby. Kirby can too but with Dair and not stone due to Dolphin slash being insanely fast while Kirby has to transform before he actually goes down.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I just tested for Lucina and
Usmash 85% on FD
Fsmash 77% on FD
Lucina can gimp Kirby. Kirby can too but with Dair and not stone due to Dolphin slash being insanely fast while Kirby has to transform before he actually goes down.

So her power is the same no matter where it hits? Or is that just for damage?
Idk if Dair is best option we either trade or you out prioritize us, plus with good timing before DS it is actually a great option and
Very possible, though I should mention this is FG perspective which is all I can do unfortunately, I know its bad but........what else can a kid do? :\
Man typing on this tablet SUCKS

 

[Macchiato]

So her power is the same no matter where it hits? Or is that just for damage?
Idk if Dair is best option we either trade or you out prioritize us, plus with good timing before DS it is actually a great option and
Very possible, though I should mention this is FG perspective which is all I can do unfortunately, I know its bad but........what else can a kid do? :\
Man typing on this tablet SUCKS

It is always the same power.

I'll do this post on Tournament or Friendly Experience

Lucina outranges Kirby, she can fair but must be precise. She can combo him at low percents. Dair is kirbys main combo starter and our Uair outranges his legs and we can just shield than grab. Due to Lucinas superior range, landing is hard for Kirby here. Lucina can just space with ftilt, fair, and dtilt which if are spaced right, are safe on shield. If Kirby keeps shielding we can mix it up with shield breaker. Kirby must be very patient for Lucina to mess up and he can get a combo. The only advantage he has here is if he gets Lucina in the air. Due to her lack of landing options, Kirby can keep uairing. Lucina can kill Kirby earlier than he can kill her with Usmash and Fsmash which kills him really early. It outranges all of his moves I think. Kirbys main kill moves are smashes and Bair. Bair is a good oos if the Lucina is reckless on her spacing. Dsmash and Fsmash will kill at a good read, or a bad roll from Lucina. Edgeguarding is pretty even between them two. Lucina can spike or Fsmash Kirby since his recovery doesn't sweetspot. Kirbys Nair and Dair trades with Lucinas dolphin slash which I think could gimp her. I would say that they equally benefit from customs. Kirby gets a better command grab which might help. It also improves his horizontal recovery if I'm not mistaken. He also gets a better and hard to edgegaurd recover and kill move. Lucina gets dashing assault which is great for punishes and a better approach and recovery. Crescent slash gives Lucina combos which racks up damage fast. It kills Kirby on the ledge at around 40% which is insane. Iai counter is stronger and sends Kirby behind her which could be handy if he goes to edgegaurd her.
I'd say that with or without customs, it's 65-35 benefiting lucina

 

[Unknownkid]

Both Kirby and Marth lost things made them shine in Brawl. Kirby manages to bounce back not sure about Marth. Anyways...

Pro:
I always felt this was in Lucina's Favor more so than the Marth's MU. With Marth, I want to be hit with the bane of the sword. Avoid the tipper as best as possible. However, with Lucina I need to be extremely careful. Any hit from the sword is dangerous and a good Fsmash or Up Smash will kill me. Do you know how stupid Lucina's Upsmash is against Kirby? Luckily enough, Lucina falls apart to shielding but this adds more to her mixup. Is Kirby going to Shield? I'll better grab him. Is he going to attack? I can counter or space with my attacks. His shield is small? I bait him and Shield Break. I can totally understand why Hype Nova believe Lucina as a spacing character. But She can do it pretty well against Kirby. And man does it hurts.

Cons:
Hmm... Thanks to the patch, our grab is good, inhale has a reason and our Dsmash and Upsmash kills sooner. We can duck your Grab, Dash Grab and Dash Attack(?). So take note of that. Few of our moves will make us shorter than we appeal. We also have good Air to Ground transition with Nair and Uair being our shortest landing lag moves. If you see a Charging Hammer, don't counter it. That is what we want. Either smack us with something simple or bait into grab. If you do something noticeable like Fsmash or Fair I can kill you and survive thanks to Super Armor on the swing. Also, Counter occurs so fast that Kirby tanks the hit if he whiff his Full Charged Swing. It happen to me 3 times Haha! If we get your power, we have another move to break your shield and a Flaming Hammer with your name on it. Kirby's offstage game is pretty good. I don't mind trading Dolphin Slash with an Aerial, Inhale or Stone. Also, Shield work wonders against you and your wonderful hitlag modifier.

Stage: I don't know.

Custom: I think this where it gets interesting and I believe this is where Marth's excel more than Lucina. Crescent Slash! That move hurts. One good grab on the edge and we are gone. I will be wary of Kirby's Jumping Inhale and Upper Cutter. That is our main sets. I believe we have a set just for your guys or counter user in general. I forgot which it is.

Ratio: Hmm... I know don't if we allow to do ratio. Competitive Impression Thread is discussing about it. I will say that Lucina has the advantage or could be slight advantage. I don't know. You are a problem to Kirby in my opinion.

Wait... Macchiato switch to Lucina? Damnit Gorl stick with one character already.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Both Kirby and Marth lost things made them shine in Brawl. Kirby manages to bounce back not sure about Marth. Anyways...

Pro:
I always felt this was in Lucina's Favor more so than the Marth's MU. With Marth, I want to be hit with the bane of the sword. Avoid the tipper as best as possible. However, with Lucina I need to be extremely careful. Any hit from the sword is dangerous and a good Fsmash or Up Smash will kill me. Do you know how stupid Lucina's Upsmash is against Kirby? Luckily enough, Lucina falls apart to shielding but this adds more to her mixup. Is Kirby going to Shield? I'll better grab him. Is he going to attack? I can counter or space with my attacks. His shield is small? I bait him and Shield Break. I can totally understand why Hype Nova believe Lucina as a spacing character. But She can do it pretty well against Kirby. And man does it hurts.

Cons:
Hmm... Thanks to the patch, our grab is good, inhale has a reason and our Dsmash and Upsmash kills sooner. We can duck your Grab, Dash Grab and Dash Attack(?). So take note of that. Few of our moves will make us shorter than we appeal. We also have good Air to Ground transition with Nair and Uair being our shortest landing lag moves. If you see a Charging Hammer, don't counter it. That is what we want. Either smack us with something simple or bait into grab. If you do something noticeable like Fsmash or Fair I can kill you and survive thanks to Super Armor on the swing. Also, Counter occurs so fast that Kirby tanks the hit if he whiff his Full Charged Swing. It happen to me 3 times Haha! If we get your power, we have another move to break your shield and a Flaming Hammer with your name on it. Kirby's offstage game is pretty good. I don't mind trading Dolphin Slash with an Aerial, Inhale or Stone. Also, Shield work wonders against you and your wonderful hitlag modifier.

Stage: I don't know.

Custom: I think this where it gets interesting and I believe this is where Marth's excel more than Lucina. Crescent Slash! That move hurts. One good grab on the edge and we are gone. I will be wary of Kirby's Jumping Inhale and Upper Cutter. That is our main sets. I believe we have a set just for your guys or counter user in general. I forgot which it is.

Ratio: Hmm... I know don't if we allow to do ratio. Competitive Impression Thread is discussing about it. I will say that Lucina has the advantage or could be slight advantage. I don't know. You are a problem to Kirby in my opinion.

Wait... Macchiato switch to Lucina? Damnit Gorl stick with one character already.

I like to use final cutter on characters that like to rush me or do shorthop Ariel's, its surprisingly effective if timed and spaced right.
But basically this is.....?.ANOTHER patient MU.....
Idk I think its near 60:40 in her favor actually, thankfully we won't have the worst amount of troubles because she has no projectile.

 

[Unknownkid]

I like to use final cutter on characters that like to rush me or do shorthop Ariel's, its surprisingly effective if timed and spaced right.
But basically this is.....?.ANOTHER patient MU.....
Idk I think its near 60:40 in her favor actually, thankfully we won't have the worst amount of troubles because she has no projectile.

Hmm... I stop using Final Cutter because how punishable it is. But if one use it unexpectedly, then I can see how effective it is.
Haha pretty much. A lot of our MU involved around being patient. It is weird way Sakurai design Kirby. Don't get me wrong though. Kirby can be very aggressive. Asdioh, Triple R, and myself are very offensive, and "in your face" fighter while Mikekirby and Kirbyfan66 are more defensive warriors. It is good to master both styles to help in MUs. I often switch styles to throw off my opponents.

Yeah, I know. Lucina with a projectile will be hell. It is weird. I can deal with Lucina/Marth fine but King Dedede still bothers me. I feel Lucina/Marth should be a harder MU than Dedede.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Hmm... I stop using Final Cutter because how punishable it is. But if one use it unexpectedly, then I can see how effective it is.
Haha pretty much. A lot of our MU involved around being patient. It is weird way Sakurai design Kirby. Don't get me wrong though. Kirby can be very aggressive. Asdioh, Triple R, and myself are very offensive, and "in your face" fighter while Mikekirby and Kirbyfan66 are more defensive warriors. It is good to master both styles to help in MUs. I often switch styles to throw off my opponents.

Yeah, I know. Lucina with a projectile will be hell. It is weird. I can deal with Lucina/Marth fine but King Dedede still bothers me. I feel Lucina/Marth should be a harder MU than Dedede.

In a way yes, I swear a good DDD can demolish me, but Idk if lucina and marth should be that tough its like almost all of Kirby's MU
Where he either has a slight advantage or slight disadvantage or even. Literally that's next to all of his MUs so far and idk if others are ecxeptions.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Could I add discussion to past MUs?

 

[Locuan]

Could I add discussion to past MUs?

Yep, feel free. We allow all discussions regardless of the discussion period.

 

[Agent Emerald]

What I think what Lucina should be doing in the Kirby MU is to not end up in a position where Kirby can easily get in, which isn't that hard because of the disjointed hitboxes she packs. Always be ready for Kirby to attempt gimping you, especially in customs. If he gets a fair or bair in on you're offstage, it's over.

Also don't get your Shield broken by Kirby you'll have a hammer that doesn't care about the weapon triangle in your face

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Kirby's small size used to be annoying when I played as Marth on him because with multiple jumps + airdodges, a very good Kirby can approach with almost no risk. Kirby has good mobility, his attacks come fast and have decent range (Jab is difficult to DI out of), good set-ups via D-Air, U-Tilt, F-Air + Throws, reliable ways to rack damage and is a decent gimper.

Against Kirby, it's best to be patient, and watch him very carefully when in the air or engaging yourself there with him. While Kirby's easy to combo in low percents and Lucina's disjointed hitboxes can be good advantage in this matchup, he can easily jump out of the way in higher percents which resets game easily into neutral, or even keep getting in close with aforementioned jumping airdodges. These can be very recurring and easy way to punish Lucy by Kirby's fast attacks, especially if she uses her laggy aerials in regular basis. B-Air can be nasty, and F-Air-strings aren't fun to deal with either. Kirby can also DI out of Dancing Blade, so don't try to use it too much in higher percents.

D-Air-setups aren't gladly too hard to deal with due Lucy's anti-air tools (U-Tilt, DB, U-Air). Wonder if you can Counter after DI:ing out of D-Air to punish F-Smash or similar - Grabs can come in way though if Kirby wants to mix-up or counter after reading your method out of it

Killing Kirby shouldn't be difficult due his light weight - but it's best to kill him on-stage rather than send him horizontally off-stage. Up-Smash can ensure good and secured kills, especially when he tries to attack or approach from air often. D-Smash can be also good near ledges if read well, it sends Kirby angled up. Countering Kirby's stronger attacks against him can be good mixups to turn the table, but it's best done via observing the player's habits when doing certain strings (like D-Air, maybe).. Also, like some said, Kirby can't footsie well against Lucy (But TBH, he excels on air, so concentrate on playing more mindfully there.)

Also with Kirby's throws getting buffed, it's better to not attack him on shield anymore as before. A good Lucina should be mindful with Shield Breaker to look for shield approaches or blocks, but try to adjust it on punishing Kirby using it in case he tries to play defensive to chip damage in further. After all, a dizzy Kirby will be both cute and satisfying sight to kill with a strong attack.

I think I might put 55:45 - While Kirby has plenty tools to gain advantage of the match, Lucy being more well-equipped than Hero King turns this match into her favor probably more. It asks for good reads and observing of Kirby while playing careful spacing on air the higher percentages on Kirby goes and avoid his attempts to bait your laggy attacks across the board for easy damage racking.
He's easy to combo and kill, but TBH, he can do all same back to you if you ain't careful. Lucy gladly enough can ensure more than enough to get back at him when you know the matchup. Interesting matches might come out of this, potentially.

 

[Xisin]

sorry this is so late but I Juuuuust noticed this.

Let's talk ROB!

I play mainly Marth but the match ups are so darn similar it's worth talking about. I've probably played this match up more than any other Marth in the world against good robs.

When playing against rob there are two things you MUST keep in mind,

1. Gyro placement, know how charged it is, or where it is at at all times. ROB's laser isn't that big of a deal and you can punish him pretty easily for it if he uses it too close, and too close is about 2-3 sword lengths away. So back to gyro, a smart rob will use his gyro to get grabs off of you, he will also keep you on or near the leadge with gyro throws, I've had upwards of 40% racked on me from one gyro in smash 4... Gyro is insanely good. Other janky gyro things: If ROB has gyro in hand and you are own ledge, you need not to ledge roll, or HE WILL throw the gyro down on the stage and you will get spiked to oblivion. If he spaces the spin well we'll create a situation where it can become very difficult to approach without getting hit by hard read smash attack or a grab, both are obviously bad. which leads to point 2 on what to avoid, RoB's silly grab game!

2. RoB's grab game is pretty good in this game and nets him reliable kos. while it's not as bad as it once was... (thanks to up throw nerfs) it's still pretty bad, at high percents if he throws you with dtrhow, simply jump away, be weary though if he tosses you up at 70% he may just ko you with the up air that follows. if customs are on robs d-throw becomes a 50/50 guessing game at pretty much any percent due to his enhanced jet booster.

So marth/lucina's objective on this match up is fairly simple, get ROB either off the stage or above you. Bair beats EVERY Aerial he has, no question, if you space it properly bair beats out robs nair every time, if you play marth, due to the spacing that bair requires to out space nair it will always tip. Up air will also beat nair if spaced properly. Pretty much all of marths aerials wreck rob if you space them really tight. If you are reckless however you will eat every nair he throws out while trying to get aerials... spacing, spacing, spacing. If you see him flub out really bad land a sour fair on him (if marth) this will lead into up air or fair, abuse this.

If Rob is off stage and recovering, he must use one his aerials in order to spot dodge, remember this well as this is where you will rob most of the time, I've lost track of how many robs i've forced into a no fuel to death situation since he has such a hard time getting back. If he is in jet boost, jump at him swat at him, the worst he can do is try to throw out an aerial back, and remember all of our aerials beat his, as long as we're not challenging his up air with our dair, but for bonus points, if rob is recovering full vertical to the ledge, simply drop down and feign a dair, wait til he throws the up air out then spike him. He'll recover back but often in a panic at that point, dolphin slash him to kill him after that. Speaking of dolphin slash if he is under the stage you get repeated stage spikes on rob, hope rob is good at teching! Most RoB's however won't recover down like that.

ROB does nasty stuff to marth in the air too though, it can be very hard to land against a rob that knows whats up, also he ledge guards and ledge traps marth really well due to gyro.

This whole match up is about getting rob in the air or off the stage, problem is, is that he's fairly good at staying on the ground and has really fast frame data, such as a dtilt that comes out on frame 3 (wtf) a jab that he can use to get grabs off of (also comes out stupid fast.) and a pretty damn good gimp game. Dthrow is your friend as marth/lucy in this game as it sets up our trap game fairly well. Also blue dancing blades, abuse them hard. Regardless though RoB stays on the stage slightly better than we are capable of launching them off it (not by much) the problem lies in how hard rob punishes us for our mistakes as opposed to the way we punish him. ROB simply kills us easier, that is unless rob screws the pooch hard and runs head lon into a tipper or gets shield broken (don't be afraid to use short hop shield breaker into a shield happy anything btw)

ROB wins either 60/40 or 65/35. Not sure yet.

 

[t!MmY]

Kirby vs Lucina
Kirby's favor, but probably only slightly. I guess you guys might call it 55:45 in Kirby's favor.

Yes, Kirby is light and slow, but he has all the tools he needs to take on Lucina. How early Smash Attacks KO isn't even a big issue since this game revolves around knocking the opponent off-stage or launching them for juggles/sharking. Lucina is terrible both off-stage and when launched above the opponent and Kirby can do both to her fairly easily.

What favors Kirby so much is Lucina's lack of ranged attacks. She has enough speed to deal with Kirby, but without a projectile (even a bad one) one of Kirby's biggest weaknesses is non-existent. It also seems that Lucina's leads and approaches are not very strong against Kirby as he can react well enough to them.

One of Lucina's stronger mix-ups - her Shield Breaker - is completely nullified when Kirby is crouching. After ducking a Shield Breaker Kirby can either F-smash or Dash Grab for strong punish options. This gives Kirby strong defensive options against Lucina because he can Shield as necessary and crouch instead of trying to Dodge/Perfect Shield when a Shield Breaker crops up.

Lucina's Size & Weight is favorable for Kirby as well with her being tallish and fairly light. The height gives him an easier time landing Short Hopped Aerials and can also utilize Full Jumps with his Aerials to change up spacing and timing of his attacks. Her light weight gets her off-stage or nets him KO's should he land something strong.

In general disjointed attacks can give Kirby trouble, but Lucina's range doesn't seem to make her disjoints especially threatening nor difficult to deal with. Kirby's range is only somewhat shorter but he gets a lot more off landing his attacks. Kirby's combos can rack up damage quickly while Lucina seems to rely more on footsies and pokes (well, the bad Lucina's just rely on throwing out Smash Attacks, but I'm not going there).

Kirby's offensive approaches are also a little on the weak side due to his slow speed and lack of safe disjointed attacks. He can take more risks at lower percents since Smash Attacks wouldn't be dangerous and Kirby can get a lot of damage off even if he has to take a few hits himself. Most of his hits will probably be from baiting or punishing since his footsies aren't as strong as Lucina's.

Smaller stages favor Kirby more as they keep the fight closer which can put pressure on Lucina due to Kirby's attack options and small size. Some platforms seem to be better for Kirby, though I think it depends on the formation. Lylat, for instance, seems to have platforms that would favor Lucina but Battlefield would be better for Kirby. Smashville and Town & City seem more even as far as size and platforms go.

Kirby's Copy nets him the Shield Breaker. This isn't an especially good Neutral Special for Kirby to have - Inhale itself may be about as good - but Shield Breaker definitely allows for different uses. Having the ability to weaken/break Shields is nice to have in the match-up, and charging it off-stage for horizontal movement might be useful as well. In general Kirby won't get a Copy on Lucina very often, so it might not even be seen in most matches.

It seems like most of this match would come down to either Lucina/Kirby waiting for the other to make a mistake (a patient game) or Lucina keeping Kirby at sword-tip range. Lucina could go offensive due to her speed, but she'd be taking a gamble with choosing between aerial approaches, ground approaches, and grab mix-ups, none of which are especially damaging or threatening. Kirby is likely to move in with something - probably something to bait Lucina - at least when he's at low damage since he has a lot to gain with combos and gimps.

 

[Streamline]

Cool, thanks for taking your time and creating this.

 

[Locuan]

We have a new match-up thread!
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-falchions-marth-lucina-match-up-discussion.402246/

We are currently discussing Shiek:
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-falchions-match-up-discussion-week-1-sheik.402251/

Forgot to lock this one earlier. Regardless feel free to keep utilizing this one to read any of the information we have covered in the past.