Lucina: Match-Up Discussion (UPDATE: Kirby!)

[Esquire]

Hi guys! Mii Brawlers are pretty rare due to both the budding/uncomfortable shift to Custom rulesets and the general inconsistency of Mii formats at tournaments. However, I have some good experience with the character (I wrote the Mii Brawler guide on-site), so I'll try my best to highlight what Mii Brawler can do in this match-up. I can't really speak for what Lucina can do in practice, but I'll try my best to approximate the match-up.

For reference, if you're discussing Mii Brawler, you should be discussing SHORT/THIN. This is by far the most prominent Mii Brawler custom size selection. Short/Fat is also viable and has certain advantages and disadvantages. Short/Fat has more hitstun and damage than Short/Thin, but Short/Thin is super mobile (arguably the most mobile character in the game). Both Short/Fat and Short/Thin have roughly the same gameplan and tactics, though, so you could get away with a general analysis for both at the same time.

As for customs, here's a list of the common custom moves you'll be seeing in a competitive environment:

Shotput (Neutral 1) - A heavy projectile that has two purposes: one is for spacing (it can be B-reversed), and the other [most useful] is for gimping.
Ultimate Uppercut (Neutral 2) - A chargeable punch that is used for its general utility. Kills at around 85-90% on most characters and has super armor that allows it to act as a pseudo-counter.
Onslaught (Side 1) - Most comparable to Captain Falcon's Raptor Boost, this is used to punish rolls and spot dodges. Deceptively strong knockback-wise, can kill in the 105-110% range.
Helicopter Kick (Up 2) - This is Mii Brawler's most powerful Special move and is infamously known for being his combo ender. Kills extremely early as a combo ender, as low as 50-55% near the edge of stages. Also can catch air dodges. Recovery is generally horizontal in nature with little vertical movement.
Piston Punch (Up 3) - Infamous due to the One Inch Punch tech, but is really only useful against extremely light characters. Helicopter Kick is generally superior.
Feint Jump (Down 2) - Most comparable to ZSS' Flip Jump. Covers less vertical height and is much, much less invincible. However, covers more horizontal distance and the kick can also be used to travel further for recovery purposes. One of Brawler's most useful mobility/recovery moves.

BEST SET AGAINST LUCINA: I would say that you will be seeing 1122. Shotput helps against Marth and Lucina's vertical recovery options and prevents them from playing the spacing game all day. 2122 is also good for super armor, however, so prepare for both.

Let's now get into the specifics of the Mii Brawler MU:

Brawler's General Gameplan: Brawler will want to literally have you in his hands (that means a grab). DThrow is a crucial part of Mii Brawler's gameplan, and thanks to his insane mobility and amazing pivot grab, it is not really hard to land a grab. Lucina in the air above Mii Brawler is also really good for it, as you pretty much cut out the need to use DThrow by putting yourself in range of UAir and FAir. In general, DTilt, UTilt, DThrow, and the Dash attack are used to start aerial combos, so being in these short ranges is a bad idea for Lucina. Since Mii Brawler is one of the few characters in the game that has multiple true combo set-ups, Lucina can't do a whole lot to combat combo strings as she lacks a quick "get off me" aerial interrupter. In short, if Brawler is in Lucina's face or has you in a grab, you're going to be taking either a lot of damage or will be KO'd.

Ground Game: Mii Brawler's ground game strategy against Lucina is all about waiting for Lucina to commit to a move and miss. Lucina, as a sword user, naturally has the reach advantage against (especially) a Short/Thin Mii Brawler, so an aggressive Mii Brawler actually struggles to simply run in and get a hit or grab. However, Mii Brawler is extremely fast (Captain Falcon fast on the ground), so as stated, waiting for Lucina to make the first mistake is the right choice for Brawler. I am unsure if you've had this MU discussion yet, but playing Mii Brawler on the ground is like playing Little Mac on the ground. You must play /very/ conservatively, emphasizing your safe options over trying to make hard reads and punishes. Creating a wall of space between Mii Brawler and your body by using safe sword swings is your best bet on the ground, and it does work wonders. I will say, though, that Lucina isn't really as threatening as Marth when it comes to hindering Mii Brawler's approaching options on the ground, as precise spacing for Mii Brawler becomes less of a burden/risk when there's no tipper involved.

Air Game: Mii Brawler's air game is arguably better than his ground game. NAir is stupidly active (starts on Frame 3 and ends on Frame 28), FAir combos into everything (including itself), UAir is the same, BAir is a solid, meaty move, DAir is safe and can spike: Mii Brawler in the air is frightening. Luckily, much like his ground game, his reach is still subpar, so the ability to out-range him with FAir, BAir and UAir comes in handy. You must also treat Lucina's air game like her ground game by making sure you swing your sword at the correct length, as swinging too early or too late means you'll at best eat a sourspot NAir. Mii Brawler does struggle to approach vertically from the air against sword characters in general, so use that to your advantage. Basically, when Mii Brawler is in the air, you either want to stay on the ground and use your long anti-airs or try and FAir its NAir precisely.

KO Options: Mii Brawler has three primary ways of killing. One, Mii Brawler can kill through his confirmed combos. DThrow -> FAir -> Helicopter Kick is an example of a quick and easy KO set-up for Mii Brawler at lower percentages. In truth, once you're locked into a DThrow, you have to pray to the DI gods that you pick the right direction to DI in and hope the Brawler chooses the incorrect aerial. DTilt -> FAir, UTilt -> UAir, etc. can also lead into Helicopter Kick KO's. Two, Mii Brawler has strong Smash attacks. This is probably the less effective way of the two to secure a KO, but Mii Brawler's Smash attacks are very powerful and can kill at low percentages. FSmash kills as early as 85%, DSmash at 110% with the sweetspot back hit, and USmash 115%. Thing is, these options are generally unsafe and/or telegraphed. If a Brawler is throwing out Smash attacks without it being a punish, feel free to Counter it for a free hit. Otherwise, punish the misses however you see fit. Three, Onslaught and Ultimate Uppercut can kill on their own. For Onslaught, Shielding is your best option. Do not roll or spotdodge, or else the animation will catch you. It is hugely punishable if completely shielded. Ultimate Uppercut can be treated like a Smash attack. If it's charged up, DO NOT THROW OUT SMASH ATTACKS. UU can eat an attack and retaliate for massive damage/a KO. Mii Brawler will try to Jab -> Jab -> Ultimate Uppercut. Use the slight break in between to use Counter if you feel like this is coming, but watch out for grab mix-ups.

Offstage and Ledge: Mii Brawler has fantastic horizontal recovery. Feint Jump + Helicopter Kick pretty much ensures that Mii Brawler is returning to stage (if not Feint Jump alone). The area in which Mii Brawler is most vulnerable is at the end of Feint Jump. Try to score a FAir here, as after Feint Jump has been used once in the air, it cannot be used again. Gimping Brawler for the KO is not easy, but hitting him while he's offstage for damage is not if you can manage to eliminate his Feint Jump. Lucina's long sword is good, as it can hit Brawler before his kick can connect with Lucina. On the ledge, Mii Brawler has both a short attack get-up and a short roll animation. Take advantage of this by standing a few feet away from the ledge, so that the tip of Lucina's blade can hit the ledge. Brawler will struggle with any recovery except jumping from the ledge. With Lucina recovering or on the ledge, expect tons of Shotput action. Gage the distance that Mii Brawler is from the ledge and study the arc in which the ball will travel. Good Mii Brawlers will let the ball bounce once or twice to make it behave like Villager's FSmash, so your best bet is to read the distance of the projectile. If far, air dodge and then recover. If short (like the bowling ball), recover quickly and above the ledge (Shotput's recovery frames mean that you won't get punished for going over). Mii Brawler can gimp and specializes in BAir pressure to stage spike, but against Lucina and her increased sword range, he's probably better off letting you recover to the stage if he lacks Shotput.

MATCH-UP CONCLUSION: This is a tricky one. I think that Lucina, in essence, is a lot like Marth for Mii Brawler, but with less fear of her spacing options. The fact that spacing doesn't reward Lucina as much as Marth, and doesn't hinder Brawler nearly as much, allows Brawler to throw out his bread and butter with a bit of impunity. With that said, sword users naturally have the reach advantage against Mii Brawler. If you want to beat Brawler with Lucina, ironically, you need to start playing her like Marth and space her attacks precisely. Otherwise, an aggressive or ill-spaced playstyle means that Mii Brawler can quickly punish mistakes and set up combo strings.

I'd give this match-up a 45:55 Mii Brawler. Marth I see as 50:50 due to the threat of his tipper and ability to space, while Lucina has the latter only. When Brawler is in advantage, Lucina struggles mightily and have little recourse to escape. Lucina in advantage is very good, being able to space out and avoid most of what Mii Brawler throws out. The issue is that patient Mii Brawler play will counter good sword spacing, and Lucina's sword and general mobility is not enough pressure for Mii Brawler.

Phew! Hope this helps, and if you have any questions, feel free to ask!

 

[Macchiato]

@ Locuan I think we should start add customs to the discussion since they seem to be starting to get popular.

 

[Locuan]

@ Locuan I think we should start add customs to the discussion since they seem to be starting to get popular.

We should. The discussion has always been allowed but people never really got to saying much about customs. But yes, the next discussion period I will mention it once more.

 

[Locuan]

Hey guys, double post, but it's an update. First, thanks @ Esquire for your post. It was incredibly informative. This discussion period though, we focus on the Charizard match-up everyone. Lets get started!

 

[ZephyrZ]

Not a matchup I'm super familiar with, but I'll throw in my input anyway.

Charizard's not actually a dragon type, so don't make the mistake of expecting bonus damage when you attack with the Falchion. Instead you should send in your archers to shoot him down, since he's a flying unit. I recommend bringing Noire.

Careful with your aerial attacks, Lucina mains, because between his awesome dash speed and Flare Blitz(or Dragon Rush in customs), Charizard is great at punishing landing lag. I think this is especially important in this match-up because Marth and Lucy got really screwed over with landing lag in this game.

Lucina doesn't have many true combos, does she? Watch out for Charizard's Rock Smash/Hurl then, because when you're on the offensive, those moves can really turn your momentum against you if you're not careful.

I'm not familiar enough with this matchup to put a number on it, but I feel like this may actually be one of Charizard's better matchups, since he doesn't have to worry about his opponent forcing him to approach. Of course, you shouldn't take my word for it entirely. I'm certainly no expert at match-ups.

 

[Davregis]

Charizard can easily get wrecked by the abominable strength of Marth's tippers. Because he depends so much on living to higher percents, this is very, very bad for Charizard.

However, this isn't Marth and Charizard gets to consistently live over 100%. If nothing else, that skews the matchup incredibly far, as Charizard can outrange and outpunish given the constant threat of Flamethrower and his ease of rushing in with Dash Attack to punish lag. Against a Charizard, Lucinas, you either have to go in or keep him at the tip, because trading with the dragon is not favorable. Watch out for his Rock Smash and Flamethrower, and be wary of doing anything in the air because Flare Blitz will eat aerials. Charizard is somewhat weak to rushdowns and juggles.

 

[Macchiato]

Charizard IMO is a near even match. Lucina can keep him out with fairs but they must be spaced precisely. Charizard is also kinda laggy and we can punish. We can kill him at decent percents. A hard read will kill us early and its hard to gimp him due to having super armor on both recovery moves. I think we also rack up damage faster. I think we kill him around 110% and he can kill us at like 100% with dthrow at the ledge. We should just avoid a grab at high percents. Rock smash is a scary defensive tool. Oos is also scary at high percents so we don't want to be too close when we go near him or fly will kill us. Countering his flare blitz is a smart move to do and Charizard shouldn't shield a lot of we'll get a shield breaker off. We should just space carefully to win the match. Default 60-40 Lucina

With Customs he gets a safe punish tool, Dragon Rush, with the same endlag so we can punish. I wouldn't give up fly and he does get variety of rocks. We get an approach tool and and Tech chaser, dashing assault. The big thing is we get the ability to kill as early at 60% with CS. A Fthrow near the ledge at mid percents is a free kill for Lucina. From center stage, Fthrow to CS kills at 90% to 100%. Though Dragon Rush does kill at like 90% and is pretty safe, With Customs I say its 63-37 Lucina.

 

[charizardbro]

I use Lucina as a pocket character sometimes so I'm probably not your #1 guy for this matchup but these are my thoughts.
Stages: Much like Lucina, Charizard likes stages with platforms that aren't particularly wide (Battlefield, Smashville) so I fail to see any clear counterpicks for this matchup. Both characters have good moves for hitting opponents that are on platforms and both don't like getting pelted with projectiles (not that either of them have one to threaten the other with).

Neutral: Neither character has a projectile so this should be interesting. I'll cover notable options first. Scroll a down a bit to get straight to the comparison.

Lucina Approaching Charizard
Approaching with retreating short hop (SH) Fairs should be relatively safe for Lucina. Charizard is the perfect height to hit the Fair and land without lag. You could also approach with a fox trot and pivots to bait something sloppy from Charizard. Zard doesn't have a projectile to interrupt your foxtrot with so Lucina may even be able to abuse that option to decent effect. You all know what to do when Charizard lands with a laggy aerial or whiffs a grab. Focus on outranging Charizard when you get close.

Charizard Approaching Lucina
Charizard typically approaches with a dash into shield or a SH Nair, most other options aren't entirely safe and require a read of some kind or for the opponent to make a mistake. Charizard will want Lucina offstage to Dair Lucina's vertical recovery and generally rack up damage so Fthrow and Bthrow towards the nearest blast zone will be the go to punishes for 10% apiece. DI accordingly. Charizard has other tools in neutral like jab combos, Ftilt, and Dtilt but Lucina should generally be able to outrange or hit first by nature of her better frame data and disjointed hitbox. Charizard will definitely make you pay if you give him an opening though.

Comparison:

The short answer is...
Lucina generally does a bit better in neutral. She has more/better options to play with and generally has an easier time reading and punishing Charizard. At the same time, Charizard's reads hurt more and but they're harder to pull of and a bit more risky.

The long answer is...
She has a bit better range with her Fair but the hitbox doesn't stay out as long as Charizard's Nair so the timing will be pretty strict for Lucina. Charizard's Nair is active for 20 frames starting on the 8th frame and Lucina's Fair is active for 3 frames starting on the 6th frame. The best Charizard can hope to do in an aerial clash from neutral is throw out the Nair hitbox in time and hope Lucina messes up her Fair timing. Keep in mind that Charizard's tail is not a hurtbox so Lucina has to time her aerial to outreach Charizard's tail and hit his body before his tail can hit her. Charizard's Nair can be safe on shield if the spacing is really good since it can autocancel after frame 31 but Lucina can Fsmash him out of it with a good read. Lucina has more neutral options so Charizard is comparatively easier to read than Lucina. Lucina's hardest punishes like Fsmash are easier to land (quicker startup) but don't KO as early as those of Charizard.

Offstage/Aerials (that aren't from neutral)
Lucina outranges everything Charizard carries other than Charizard's Bair. Charizard's aerials kill a lot earlier though. I also think Zard's Dair has a little more forgiving sweet spot than that of Lucina but that's anecdotal. Flamethrower edge guards should be pretty easy for Charizard since Lucina almost always recovers low. Charizard has armored recovery options so that complicates offstage followups for Lucina; Lucina probably won't be able to stage spike or Dair as well. No advantage to either character unless one of the players is a Dair wizard. Lucina will outrange Charizard (and vice versa) with Utilt when Charizard is descending. Nobody really has better anti-air options.

Overall Rating:
At the end of the day, I would give it a solid 55:45 in favor of Lucina. This is easily turned into a 60:40 if Lucina has some sort of guaranteed combo on Charizard due to his weight and size that I'm unaware of. The lack of guaranteed combos means that Lucina has to work a bit harder and make more reads to put Charizard at KO percent which gives Charizard more time to make reads of his own. All it takes is a single Dair or Fsmash at 60-70% to put a damper on Lucina's game. But if Lucina is especially careful not to give up any major reads between, say, 50 and 80%, I think Lucina would win in the long run.

 

[KingsHaki]

Charizard IMO is a near even match. Lucina can keep him out with fairs but they must be spaced precisely. Charizard is also kinda laggy and we can punish. We can kill him at decent percents. A hard read will kill us early and its hard to gimp him due to having super armor on both recovery moves. I think we also rack up damage faster. I think we kill him around 110% and he can kill us at like 100% with dthrow at the ledge. We should just avoid a grab at high percents. Rock smash is a scary defensive tool. Oos is also scary at high percents so we don't want to be too close when we go near him or fly will kill us. Countering his flare blitz is a smart move to do and Charizard shouldn't shield a lot of we'll get a shield breaker off. We should just space carefully to win the match. Default 60-40 Lucina

With Customs he gets a safe punish tool, Dragon Rush, with the same endlag so we can punish. I wouldn't give up fly and he does get variety of rocks. We get an approach tool and and Tech chaser, dashing assault. The big thing is we get the ability to kill as early at 60% with CS. A Fthrow near the ledge at mid percents is a free kill for Lucina. From center stage, Fthrow to CS kills at 90% to 100%. Though Dragon Rush does kill at like 90% and is pretty safe, With Customs I say its 63-37 Lucina.

I agree with a lot of this as a Charizard main. I want to particularly point out that a HUGE part of the mind game should be whether the Charizard feels good about his flare blitz reads. Flare blitz can be disorienting to the Lucina player if the Zard lands it several times succesfully because then the threat is looming, on the other hand, it can be equally disorienting if the Lucina shuts down flare blitz consistently to the point where it takes out a key tool in Charizard's arsenal. So I want to second that countering the flare blitz is worth it if only to impose your will mentally as the Lucina player and making the right reads as well as not giving up on flare blitz even if it feels like you should for Charizard is key because without it Lucina feels a lot more free.

Other than that...Charizard's safest option is to approach/defend with flamethrower when possible. The game goes like this:
(outside of using flare blitz)

flamethrower once or twice every now and then when its at full strength

once flamethrower is low-ish, lucina can approach with a well spaced f-air which should not be beaten with Zard's normals but if read and avoided Zard can pressure on her landing

Zard will space auto canceled n-airs to try to bait lucina to coming in too fast and catch her with a jab or even an f-tilt

On knockdown for her, lucina can move in fast and apply pressure but be careful of shield grab or OoS fly at high percents

On knockdown for him, Zard can pressure with more flamethrower, auto-cancel n-air, jab, grab, dash attack, rock smash

When above Zard should try and land with b-reverse rock smash on occasion to put it in the opponent's mind

Zard can pressure and even spike Lucina off-stage if she is predictable so that's something BUT she can counter his flare blitz if he tries to recover horizontally, it can be harder to pressure his fly.

ALL in ALL I think this matchup is as close to 5-5 as it can be. Charizard's key to success is flare blitz because he loses the neutral game by a bit but shutting that down early puts it in wraps for Lucina.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Rosalina is now analyzing Lucina at her match-up analysis thread. If you have anything to contribute for the Rosalina vs. Lucina match-up, Lucina will be analyzed until the end of 3/30.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Lucina needs to watch out for flamethrower.

I've fought so many Lucinas that forget I have that option.

 

[Locuan]

Updated, it's Lucario time!

Also, I adopted Mario and Sonic Guy's match-up ratings so I will be using them for future discussions.

 

[ReRaze]

Pros
-Lucario is pretty floaty so he's easy to juggle.
-His weight means its not that difficult to combo, pull of strings against him
-Marcina disjoints beat out all his and outrange all of his aerials.
-Marcina can kill very early making it hard for him to go super saiyan
-Lucario's fastest move is frame 5 which is his jab. All his other moves are slower than that especially his smash attacks. This compared to most of our moves generally being faster than him and having longer reach leave him at a disadvantage. (Most of Marcina's attacks are frame 5-10 Lucario is from 5-25 (rough estimate) Knowing which of his moves come out slow and acting accordingly is helpful.
-His slow attacks mean its hard for him to punish our attacks. He also has a slow running speed.
-Very easy to counter his moves as they last pretty long, reach far and are very strong meaning marcina can get easy kills using counter.
-He can only combo you to a certain extent as Marcina is pretty light.
-You have a faster recovery than him so you might find it a little easier to stage spike him than other characters.

Cons
-Force palm and aura sphere are really hard to beat out since they outrange Marcina and can throw off your spacing due to how large they are. Dont spot dodge, shield or roll AWAY from aura sphere as it will most likely hit you or break a weakend shield at higher percents. Roll towards Aura Sphere with careful timing or Jump while still far away (Aura sphere can somtimes catch your jump if you do it too late). Dont shield forcepalm (it pushes you really far back when you shield making it hard to punish and it can obviously grab you too). Just time your dodge really well and you can get an easy punish otherwise force palm will still hit you even if you dodge. Aura sphere and Forcepalm are very easy to punish with the proper approach (perfect shielding is the ideal option). Another option is running and doing a short hop air dodge followed by an aerial to punish, just be careful with your timing though because at higher oercents aura sphere might still hit you if you air dodge too early. And just make sure your close enough to punish lucario before you try. A good kill combo is sh air dodge through aura spher then nair and fsmash, try it it works almost every time but only use it at higher percents for the kill. At lower percents you can use uair to start combos instead of nair.
Learn how to foxtrot fsmash to really punish lucario. Also note that Aura sphere can hit you while your on the ledge.
-Near impossible to gimp and can in return easily gimp you as well. Dont try and gimp lucario its pointless. Just try set yourself upfor a stagespike or meteor smash. You can also punish his recovery as he reaches for the ledge if you time fsmash perfectly.
-His aerials can frame trap as they are some of his fastest moves so try not to air dodge or spot dodge. Your aerials are most likely faster and outrange his so use that instead.
-He can kill you very easily as well since Marcina arent exactly heavy (Heck heavy or not youll die to lucario)
-His boxing game is slightly better than Marcina so keep him at bay.
-His counter may be slow but it lasts long, is VERY strong and very hard to punish due to invincibility frames. Attempt to punish at your own risk.

Lucarios kill moves:

Insane:
-Uair
-Counter
-Fsmash, Usmash, Dsmash
-Bair
-Aura Sphere
-Forcepalm (Grab)

Strong (with decent aura+rage):
-Dair (doesnt need to stage spike it can gimp if it doesnt kill you)
-Forcepalm (sweetspot closer you are to lucario)
-U-tilt (yes it can kill).
-F-tilt (not that strong but it can kill)


Honestly You shouldnt have much trouble against lucario id say its 60/40 in Marcina's favour as long as you dont let him live in the 100% range you should be fine. If he does live just dont make any mistakes.

 

[Steam]

dunno where the 6-4 figure comes from but it's probably 6-4 the other way. Lucina has no way to reliably kill lucario as long as he doesn't get janked by upsmash. Fsmash is good too but any situation it would kill lucario he can punish with a sideB kill on shield. Once lucario is past 110 or so lucina can't make a single mistake or have anything power shielded or it means she dies to sideB starting at around 60%. Lucario's AS quite effectively shuts down lucina's SH game because even when she can beat it with an aerial she's forced to use her one aerial per short hop to deal with it or air dodge through it and get wrecked. Lucina owns lucario in the air but no lucario generally stays grounded in any case.

a few other things:

-Lucario abuses lucina's landing for days
- Lucario can make himself nearly ungimpable by recovering low every time
- Lucina deals with ASC cheese really well
- Lucina is really risky to go for AURABOYZ jank against because she can counter your hard reads.

Overall assuming lucario can react to shield breaker, he pretty reliably gets to high %, and once he gets to that point he = doom. Once it gets to the point where aurasphere beats lucina's aerials she ends up glued to the stage against a boxer with gorilla arms. not a good time.

 

[ReRaze]

dunno where the 6-4 figure comes from but it's probably 6-4 the other way. Lucina has no way to reliably kill lucario as long as he doesn't get janked by upsmash. Fsmash is good too but any situation it would kill lucario he can punish with a sideB kill on shield. Once lucario is past 110 or so lucina can't make a single mistake or have anything power shielded or it means she dies to sideB starting at around 60%. Lucario's AS quite effectively shuts down lucina's SH game because even when she can beat it with an aerial she's forced to use her one aerial per short hop to deal with it or air dodge through it and get wrecked. Lucina owns lucario in the air but no lucario generally stays grounded in any case.

a few other things:

-Lucario abuses lucina's landing for days
- Lucario can make himself nearly ungimpable by recovering low every time
- Lucina deals with ASC cheese really well
- Lucina is really risky to go for AURABOYZ jank against because she can counter your hard reads.

Overall assuming lucario can react to shield breaker, he pretty reliably gets to high %, and once he gets to that point he = doom. Once it gets to the point where aurasphere beats lucina's aerials she ends up glued to the stage against a boxer with gorilla arms. not a good time.

6-4 Figure is only if the marcina player doesnt make mistakes and spaces properly; plays well consistently. Unless the lucario manages to live up to higher percents THEN its the other way around (pretty much the same for every matchup as lucario). Lucina has plenty of ways to kill lucario. Speaking of power shielding lucina can pretty easily do a foxtrot fsmash to punish most of lucario's laggy kill moves as well. Also, dealing with aura sphere, short hopping, air dodging then attacking with nair or uair can be used to start combos or as a kill setup. If the lucina lands it, it can kill lucario from around 85% at the ledge. These moves also have very little landing lag meaning lucario would have to power shield them which is quite difficult since they come out around frame 5 all the more easier to land considering how much lag aura sphere has. Also, recovering low can be very dangerous for lucario as Marcina is one of the few characters in the game with a faster recovery than lucario, this can lead to stagespikes if your not careful with how you recover. Your right though, one mistake and the Marcina player dies at higher percents.

 

[M@v]

One bright side of this matchup is Lucario needs to be scared of you with rage as well. I feel Rage is Lucina's best friend in smash 4; it makes a ton of her moves that are already good at killing that much better at killing. High percent Lucario vs High percent Lucina basically comes down to "first good read gets the kill." Fsmash and edgeguarding can let you snatch stocks early as well.

 

[acetuner]

Greninja is just so fast and almost no lag his moves.

Honestly I see why he gets nerfed.

 

[Locuan]

@ A acetuner , I moved your post to the Lucina match-up thread. The Greninja match-up was the first one we discussed. If you go to the original post in this thread, you will be able to find links to the analysis. Although, this was prior to patch 1.04 if I'm not mistaken and has to be touched upon once more. Alternatively, you can also ask on the Greninja Match-Up Thread for help.
http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...up-thread-general-discussion-4-3-4-20.369356/

 

[acetuner]

@ Locuan Thanks! Although I think I should wait till v1.06.

I'm new to this but Iet me give it a shot. Lucario has a bunch of quick moves that have range to them. However he's very floaty so Lucina can juggle.

Punish the Extremespeed with Usmash

 

[Locuan]

Hey everyone thanks for the discussion on the Lucario match-up. For the following week, we will have a User Choice period! Since patch 1.06 will be out soon, match-ups might change. So instead of focusing on a specific character I decided that it would be best if we all could discuss the match-ups we find difficult. With that, I hope I can hear all of your future inputs!

 

[ReRaze]

I havent played many Rosalumas so I'm curious... how does it go for Lucina?

 

[DrCactus]

Rosalina is a pretty even MU for Marth, so I assume it would be almost the same for Lucina minus tippers

 

[AufWiedersehen]

Just watch out for Luma, get rid of him as soon as you can.

Some of my tougher matchups for Lucina (at least in the non-custom meta) are:

Yoshi - Possibly my worst matchup. He hits hard, spikes effortless, protects himself with eggs.
Fox - He's so fast, has some nasty combos out of throws, and has some powerful attacks.
Luigi - He's so hard to hit since he's borderline floaty. Also combos out of throws, and has sick recovery.

Anyone have any tips (heh) against these matchups?

 

[BSXDrayden]

I really struggle against Sheik due to her speed and her ability to easily rush you down coupled with the really hard to see bombs and needles.

 

[Locuan]

Hey everyone. It's time to discuss the ROB match-up. Let's get started!

 

[Shaya]

Know how to walk and power shield.

 

[eshu125]

Downthrow is the main tool. Once he's in the air it's extremely hard for him to land, and once he's off-stage (at least without customs( it's very easy to keep him away from the ledge. With customs it's a lot harder but he can still be pressured in the air and forced to land to regain his fuel.

 

[Crome]

Lucina doesn't really have the options to keep us off the stage or to deal with our projectiles. I don't have a lot of expierence with Lucina specifically, but I have fought quite a few marths. So if you have any questions, AMA.

Also, "Walk and powershield" is a gross understatement of the R.O.B neutral game.

 

[Shaya]

I didn't say that means "we win".
Just me emphasising that's very very important.
Before someone comes in and goes "can't deal with his projectiles at all". Or grossly over exaggerates how well Rob can keep someone out.

I am a Brawl-era player and using walking and powershielding actually is a really big factor of this match up. They have the best walks in the game and some of the best immediate attacks in the game that outrange you/can be used in your blind spots.
You aren't getting off a ledge easily against Lucina or Marth, please. You have less juice than in Brawl for off stage stuff and our bair is more than capable of outdoing all of your aerial actions.

 

[Crome]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, when that was your only comment on the MU I assumed you thought that was the entire game.

I do think R.O.B can keep Lucina out fairly well, and she's too laggy to actually juggle or combo us well (when compared to sheik and falcon).

I highly doubt Bair beats out Uair and laser, it might clank with fair and gyro. Lucina might have an easy time stopping us from getting off the ledge, but I feel the punish game is lacking.

I'm honestly no expert in the MU, these are just some of my impressions. I just figured I'd come by and try to contribute.

 

[Langston777]

what do you mean you doubt bair beats uair? why would lucina bair if rob is under her

 

[Crome]

what do you mean you doubt bair beats uair? why would lucina bair if rob is under her

our bair is more than capable of outdoing all of your aerial actions.

 

[aBlackCat]

I feel like all Lucina matchups come down to both characters throwing out an attack and by the time Lucina recovers the other guy is already hitting you again. ROB looks super fluid and I don't see Lucina winning without playing defensively. Lucina should definitely stick to the skies in this one, and focus on punishing if ROB ever moves toward you on the ground.

 

[acetuner]

Dtilt will be Lucina's friend here. Its fast and long and safe. Also it reduce her hurtbox a bit. ROB hits high bar his dtilt.

Our juggle with Dblade up to uair is pretty good. Just like Shaya said though we got to power shield and walk. (Or jog)

Forgot to mention Shield Breaker. Learning how to reverse SB will come in handy. Just input the opposite direction before hitting b.

At high % its a kill move and its shield damage will force ROB to move.

Its laggy though so be careful.

 

[Locuan]

It's time to discuss the Kirby match-up. Let's get started!

 

[Shaya]

I would have no experience in this match up on a Poyo/MikeKirby level, but did abhor this match up in Brawl (thought it was even if not slight kirby favour, as did a few others).

But from my experiences Kirby has less grab follow ups and pressure than he did in Brawl, and his back air is seemingly easier for us to get around. We can play a match of just walking and be up to pace and usually reactively swat Kirby's actions.

Customs could really change it up, but I do think it's at least a slight favour at least in terms of design for Lucina/Mars.

 

[Nilloce]

Hello trying to help out from the Kirby boards.

From the experience I've had facing Lucina I would say its slightly in Lucina's favor. With Kirby's slow air speed and limited range on his attacks, It is fairly easy to space him out with disjointed attacks. I have played Lucina's with very good spacing before and it can be challenging especially when they fade back with F-air.

Because Kirby's air speed cannot compete with her disjointed attacks he will likely be forced to approach from the ground. The constant bombardment of disjointed attacks will condition a Kirby into running up and shielding, hoping to punish an attack afterwards. However, Lucina can take advantage of this with sneaking in a quick shield breaker. This has happened to me before multiple times and its terrible (for Kirby) because it effectively makes my shield useless for a while if it doesn't break. The thing is if it was constantly abused from attacks before than it will break and well... bye bye Kirby. A forward smash will take can of him with his light weight.

The advantage Kirby has is defiantly edge guarding. Kirby's recovery is outstanding while Lucina's isn't very much. If Lucina falls too far off the ledge, Kirby can take advantage of her limited recovery into an easy edge guard. Also Kirby has excellent combos that can rack up damage quickly if you give him the chance.

Lucina's spacing is very important if you want to do good in the match up.

 

[RedNova]

Greeting from the Kirby boards!

I haven't fought so much Lucinas, but here's some of my thought. Apologies if it's not 100% accurate

Kirby - Lucy is a tricky matchup. The Lucina player can space Kirby all day, but the high lag aerials can open an opportunity for a punish.

-Pros: The Falchion gives Lucy a great disjointed hitbox that is very difficult to beat. With all that space, Kirby will have a tough time getting in and start his combos

-Cons: If Kirbs does get in, however, he can rack up damage really fast. He can take advantage of the high lag attacks to sneak up an up-tilt or d-air to start the string. Also, Kirby can go really deep to fish for that edgeguard, so if you use your double jump, it's gonna be difficult to get back on stage. Fortunately, Dolphin Slash comes out very fast, so it should be no problem.

-Customs: Upper Cutter is Kirby copying Lucina's Dolphin Slash, and it's a perfect tool to stage spike, so be careful. Also, Jumping Inhale can be used to bypass Lucy's great range, so keep that in mind.

-Overall: I'm gonna go with 40-60 in Kirby's favor. Although Lucina's range is really goood, the high lag in her attacks could be punished really hard. With good reads and a decent amount of (perfect) shielding, the Kirby player can quickly give some damage, retreat, and then go for the kill.

The match is far from unwinnable, so you can practically consider it a 50-50

 

[Langston777]

@ RedNova

you pretty much just stated that lucina is a spacing character while kirby is a short range combo character.

kirby does not win this match up. this is actually one of marth's best match ups imo, and i'd expect that to carry over to someone playing lucina though i don't have much experience with her. kirby's terrible air speed sticks him to the ground. all kirby can do is mix up rolls and shield on approach and at that point is helplessly victim to lucina's grab and shieldbreaker game. lucina is not as easy to gimp as falcon or ganon since dolphin slash snaps to the ledge so quickly that it can be mixed up to prevent being daired. plus dolphin slash can stage spike kirby so without uppercutter, kirby's dead. it would only be easy for kirby to gimp lucina if she would barely make it back from being knocked off stage because we outrange you by the metric unit of 2 Kirbys with our fair.

Kirby can't footsie lucina, can't approach lucina without putting himself at huge risk, and can't easily kill lucina unless he land's an offstage dair. the best thing kirby has is that he can punish a parried ftilt with dash grab. this is even worse with marth though because of tippers. Kirby loses.

customs will balance the match up to give Kirby some extra edge (custom kirby is GOAT). upper cutter would help with KOing as well as protecting him of being outplayed offstage. still, i don't think kirby has much going for him onstage in the neutral.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I'm using knowledge that I know
Lucian is fast and has great range in her attacks so she can space Kirby for days.
However her range isn't the scariest and when we get in, we're gonna do some seriouse damage, it's not too difficult to shield and roll and get closer to Lucy unless she SH her ariels and space with her ground attacks then, that's where things get difficult.
She doesn't really KO well(what are her KO moves?) We can KO onstage slightly better and we dominate her offstage, you guys will rely on dolphin slash to recover almost always, and because it mostly gives vertical distance, you will do it from below the edge,
That's where stone comes in and demolish your recovery.
The side special can be annoying to get around, but it is possible.
Also if they attempt shield breaker, unlike most characters who would roll or sidestep, we can just crouch under it then punish it's ending lag.

Customs? I think we need meteor stone here, yea upper cutter, jumping inhale? Idk which hammer however.

Overall I think this is somewhat in Lucy's favor, but only slightly
55:45 ?