Lucina: Match-Up Discussion (UPDATE: Kirby!)

[Ultimastrike]

Ok, so we finally got some information regarding vs. .

I will be posting from the Robin's side, Locuan will post from Lucina's.

Robin and Projectiles

Robins need to abuse every chance they have to landing trap Lucina using Elthunder or Thoron, considering Lucina does not have any options that are safe(countering gives Robin stage control vs. Elthunder, Thoron just plain grills through her but does less damage if countered) other than a double-jump mindgame or Up B. Patience is key here as Lucina may attempt to make an approach from the air(which is still unsafe since Levin UAir is a threat and outranges Lucina's DAir), but her only options to get down are Counter or Dodging, just like Shulk.

Arcfire needs to be used as a spacing tool as always, but on places like FD he needs to be careful where he throws it out and when, since Lucina's fast enough(and can duck low enough) to get under Arcfire before it gets in her path. Retreating Arcfire is a good solution in some situations.

Advantage Time

Aight. So this is where things get good. Advantage Time happens whenever your opponent is in a bad position. The best position for Robin to be in is right below her butt, allowing Levin UAir attacks and mix-ups. It even extends to whenever Lucina has used her Double Jump, leaving her to a vulnerable Up B to avoid eating Thoron, granting Robin some stage control.

Levin Sword

The Levin(Leffin) Sword is one of Robin's most powerful weapons. However, Robin and Lucina are about even when it comes to FAirs, as they both have the same reach. Only difference is Lucina has the frame advantage horizontally with about half the frames Robin has to bring out a FAir.

-Robin's FAir: 12 Frames
-Lucina's FAir: 6 Frames

Just one thing: DON'T USE DAIR AT ALL. It's a bad move anyway for Robin as its horizontal hitbox isn't really good and leaves Robin with landing lag.

The Power of Knowledge

This is something that is very useful for Robin. The books he drops can be obtained as items mainly by doing a Z-Catch, and by obtaining it Robin poses a heavy threat to Lucina. The book/sword deals a good amount of shield damage, and also can be re-obtained should Lucina shield it. Lucina's Counters have no effect here except to give Robin stage control, as the book bounces just outside of Counter's range to be thrown again. It can be used for Shield Breaks, which leaves them open to a free Charged Smash. It's probably a good idea to throw that book up high so that you can get a good chance of getting it back though to gimp Lucina. You'll see why in a second.

Edgeguarding

Things are quite tricky when it comes to Robin edgeguarding against Lucina. For one, Lucina can use FAir to get back, and that doesn't do Robin any good considering he has frame disadvantage. Even then, it's very scary to attempt an Elwind Spike on Lucina as Dolphin Slash causes more knockback the closer you are. This can lead to unneeded stage spikes and make Robin unable to recover. The safest things you can use are Arcfire and Elwind. Regarding Elwind, you can't just FF onto her and expect a spike. If you can, attempt to stage spike her when she's low. You can do this by facing away from the stage and having the second Elwind shot hit Lucina.

Disadvantage Time

Bad news. You're above Lucina, or Lucina got past Arcfire somehow. How to shake her off? Well, for one NAir is a good option as something to give Robin space. You can attempt a cross-up using NAir as well to put him on the other side and give him a bit of stage to work with if Lucina is near you. Another option is to roll past, but that can lead to repercussions provided they're not blind to how to punish a roll.

If you're above Lucina, DO NOT DAIR. Robin will not hit with it, since it's only directly below him(and it's more than likely Lucina will attempt UAir). If Lucina is getting on your nerves, attempt Elwind if you want and try to move away some to mix up your landing. FFing after Elwind is a must, as Lucina has a good fall speed that's about the same as Marth's.

Nosferatu

This is Robin's healing move, and recovers depending on if Robin is losing on the current stock(in the case of opponent on fresh stock). If you have 100% Damage and your opponent got a fresh stock, try to mix in a Nosferatu. You'll get a good amount of health back(1/3rd) and do a good life swing unless they mash really fast.

Conclusion

My thoughts on this? Robin has a slight advantage against Lucina, just like he does Marth. He zones out Lucina to a good extent, and can trap their landings easily if they don't Dolphin Slash or have already used their Double-Jump. Books are the major threat due to how it can Shield Break and cause 15-19% damage on hit plus good knockback.

The best I can find it as is 55-45, Robin Favor.

P.S. Videos uploaded by @Locuan will be uploaded when he's ready.

 

[Locuan]

Mind setting up a separate one with customs on? I'm trying to see what MUs get easier with/without them... Crew battles seem like a perfect idea for data analysis.

I just want customs to be legalized for good, I'm hoping having MU changing options on the MU boards will help with that.

This is a great idea as well. We could organize something similar too. Hm, I'm starting to like these ideas of crew battles.

 

[Freelance Spy]

This is a great idea as well. We could organize something similar too. Hm, I'm starting to like these ideas of crew battles.

Way ahead of you, I'm starting a skype group and I have talked to a guy about getting it to be a sheduled weekly RECORDED (to show how things actually AFFECT the mus)

I'm getting players from here, reddit, etc... Heck I'm besties with a mod on /r/smashbros (the power to corrupt is in my grasp mruhahaha!)

I'm pretty exited.

 

[bur]

@ Locuan great games to you as well.
And noted, thanks for the advice.
I'll write out my thoughts on the lucina-pit match up in more detail once I feel like I actually have solid advice to give.
but as for now, the only things I can say are, watch out for her aerials because they have a lot of range on pit and she moves pretty quick in the air. I feel like if I threw out fairs and nairs as an approach, she could immediately act on it and fair me out of them.

 

[Locuan]

Alright time for the Robin Match-Up analysis.

vs.

This is an interesting match-up and I must say it is incredibly fun as well. I won't go into as an extensive analysis as @ Ultimastrike mentions since I believe he covers a lot of what I would say in terms of Robin's play.

Things to watch out for:

• Robin's Thoron: When you are landing, Robin's Thoron will hit. If you see Robin has charged Thoron try to bait him/her into using it as it might become a liability later on.
• Robin's U-air: Avoid trying to be above Robin. Levin Sword U-air is incredibly good at juggling Lucina and it is also a kill move. Keep in mind that when in stages with floors that can be attacked through (Delfino, Halberd, Skyloft, Wuhu) Robin may attempt to hit you from under the stage as well. This can lead to losing a match if you overlook this fact.
• Robin's Arcfire: This is a good zoning tool that Robin has against Lucina and can lead into multiple follow ups if it connects. However, it can also leave Robin open for attack. If you are close to Robin when he lets go of the attack, you have more than enough time to punish him/her for the use of Arcfire.
• Robin's Books: If Robin is able to catch his/her books after their durability has run off they can be a really good tool to bait Lucina into traps. If you shield, said shield will be taking a lot of damage and Robin has the ability to re-catch the book and reset the scenario. If you roll towards Robin, he/she will be able to follow up in any way Robin seems fit. Spot-dodging might be a better option in this case if Robin is far away from you, same with short hop airdodge.

Lucina's options to come out ahead of her opponent:

• Short Hop Airdodges: This is a great tool for going through Robins projectiles and punishing Robin's recovery on those moves. These include Arcfire, Thunder spell variations (except Thoron due to its multiple hitboxes and wide range).
• Juggling variations: Like Lucina, Robin really dislikes being above his/her opponent. If you are able to get Robin in the air this means you can follow up with moves such as U-air if he/she is above you or Fair chains if he/she is further to the right. Robin can't really contest your F-air. Robin could use his/her N-air since it's their fastest aerial move (frame 9) but Lucina's fair will both out range his N-air and the hit-box also comes out faster (frame 6). Lucina's ability to juggle Robin effectively is her strongest asset. Try to use setups to make this happen. Throws, DB1 > upward DB2 > some follow up for juggling. Things of that nature.
  
• Edgeguarding: Robin does not want to be off stage against Lucina at any point. If Robin is below you, D-air is a great option to spike his/her attempt at getting back on-stage. While we only have one frame for the spike hit-box (frame 11) it is not difficult to connect with practice. Use it to your advantage. Another tool to utilize if Robin is coming from below for his recovery is to attempt a Stage Spike with Dolphin Slash. This would be the easiest way to edgeguard Robin as it is more reliable than a D-air spike. If Robin is away from you but at a mid altitude, both Lucina's F-air and B-air are dangerous tools that can gimp Robin's recovery or reset the edgeguard situation. Use these moves when you face these situations. If Robin is above you when out of stage, he/she will more than likely be able to recover on to the stage. However, Lucina still holds the advantage. Again Lucina is great at juggling Robin. U-air is a great tool, if you can bait an airdodge into the ground, this means you are more than likely able to get an U-smash against Robin if he recovered on a platform, or the attack of your choice if he/she recovered on the ground. Edgeguarding coupled with Lucina's juggling ability are what makes her shine in this match-up.

SideNotes:

While Robin's Nosferatu is a good tool. I do not think it gives him an advantage or disadvantage in the match-up. It is another option he can utilize to capitalize on shields but nothing that came off as threatening. However, be wary of shielding too much, Robin can recover a lot of percentage if you are baited into the situations where he/she would want to be using Nosferatu.

Conclusion

I believe this match-up has a slight advantage to Robin due to his ability to zone out Lucina with his projectiles in the neutral game. However, Lucina has the options to get through these and threaten Robin once she is at Robin's no-go zone or in edge-guarding situations. Due to these observations, the match-up is 45:55 in Robin's favor.

Anyone who has more input please feel free to add your thoughts.

 

[Locuan]

Hey guys. (Double Post sorry but this is an update). We are currently still playing the crew battle with the Pit character boards. As soon as that is done the Pit character match-up information will start flowing in and I will update the thread accordingly. I also updated the Robin match-up with the information we got from myself and @ Ultimastrike . This discussion period we will focus on the Zelda Match-Up. Lets get started!

 

[BJN39]

Be prepared for our healthy banter! ^ ^

Calling all Zeldas!

 

[Locuan]

Be prepared for our healthy banter! ^ ^

Calling all Zeldas!

Keep it focused on match-up discussion though

 

[SBphiloz4]

[Image Removed]

I'll post my actual MU thoughts when I get back.

Mod Edit: Images referencing illegal substance use are against the Smashboards Terms of Service and Rules. Keep it family friendly guys.
-locuan128

 

[CommanderRin]

Hey guys. (Double Post sorry but this is an update). We are currently still playing the crew battle with the Pit character boards. As soon as that is done the Pit character match-up information will start flowing in and I will update the thread accordingly. I also updated the Robin match-up with the information we got from myself and @ Ultimastrike . This discussion period we will focus on the Zelda Match-Up. Lets get started!

Who am I supposed to be up against on the Pit side?

 

[Locuan]

Who am I supposed to be up against on the Pit side?

I contacted @ GrayFox8983 yesterday after I got back home for our match but he did not respond. Also I have a tournament today so this might be a bit delayed.

 

[Macchiato]

Ok since lucinas moves are unsafe on shield zelda can easily punish her and in kill power zelda still has the upper hand. She can also spike lucina. Practically lucina has to mix it up with some shieldbreakers. MU 65-35 Zelda

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Hi mops Lucinas! I'm going to say this matchup is slightly in Lucina's favor or even.

What Zelda has against Lucina:

• Can zone with Phantom
• KO's Lucina extremely early: 80-ish with a lightning kick, 60 with the elevator (idk if the Lucina's know what that is but it's just her Farore's Wind disappear to reappear)
• Tall and somewhat light, making her a prime candidate to get destroyed by LK's
• Can combo slightly better than Lucina (has dthrow to nair/bair/uair, utilt to another utilt or aerials, dtilt to grab/aerials/smashes, and jab to grab/dash attack) Lucina only has dthrow to uair, fthrow to fair (?), Dancing Blade and dtilt to grab
• Better recovery, making it hard to be edgeguarded.
• Can gimp Lucina extremely early with a sweetspot dair.
• Many of Lucina's moves are unsafe on shield, meaning they can be punished easily with an oos elevator for an early KO.

What Lucina has against Zelda:

• Can outrange all of Zelda's moves (except for Din's and Phantom but those are lol)
• Can also kill Zelda extremely early (a rage fsmash kills at like 80-90% iirc)
• Zelda suffers from the same thing as Lucina: she is tall, slightly lighter, and is additionally floaty. This means she'll be dying off the top from an usmash fairly easily.
• If you can somehow counter a LK or the reappearing hit of Farore's, it'll do a lot of damage and knockback.
• Since Zelda is a defensive/reactive character, she relies on her shield a lot. Abuse this by approaching with a short hop Shield Breaker. Once your opponent begins to catch on, mix it up with an empty jump grab/whatever.
• Zelda has a gigantic problem approaching. Abuse this and bait Zelda into using an unsafe option.
• A lot of Zelda's moves have very high ending lag, specifically bair, fair, fsmash, usmash, a fastfalled dair, and the reappearing hit of Farore's if they reappear in place or miss the elevator.
• When Zelda is being juggled she can have a hard time getting down. Use those uairs allll day :^)
• Likewise, Zelda also has many unsafe moves on shield that Lucina can punish.

tldr; Lucina will dominate the neutral with her pressure and range. Zelda will kill Lucina extremely early and has the better hand offstage and with combos. Once she gets in, she will do some major damage. However, Lucina has the range to keep her out and also has amazing kill power that tends to be underestimated.

50:50

 

[Furret]

If it were marth I would say easily in his Favor. Lucina is funny because her less range gives Zelda a lot of breathing room and with only one tipper in Lucina's kit there isn't enough early kill threat with out a shield breaker, which Zelda can punish from 3/4 away on the stage. On top of Zelda's poor approach it doesn't feel like either character beats the other outright.
I also don't know enough about Lucina to give a score in either character's favor.

Be prepared for our healthy banter! ^ ^

Calling all Zeldas!

but I was sledding

Ok since lucinas moves are unsafe on shield zelda can easily punish her and in kill power zelda still has the upper hand. She can also spike lucina. Practically lucina has to mix it up with some shieldbreakers. MU 65-35 Zelda

that's a bold statement with the discussion only started

 

[BJN39]

Keep it focused on match-up discussion though

Of course of course

I was just thinking of the Rosalina MU discussion. (Read: Not the GD visit. A legitimate invite to their MU thread happened.) it was pretty interesting imo to see the good discussion/arguments there.

 

[SBphiloz4]

Personal thoughts on the Lucina vs. Zelda MU, separated into parts.

Ground Game
One major part of this match-up is the fact that both characters are ground fighters. They want to have control of the stage and stay on their toes for most of the match. Zelda can zone Lucina with Din's and Phantom's, but this zoning is not exactly sustainable. On the other hand, Lucina has range thanks to her sword, and those who can outrange Zelda can easily get the upper hand in the neutral game and cut Zelda's approach short. Fsmash, Usmash and Dtilt can work wonders against the Hyrule princess. Both characters will be shielding a lot, so getting well-timed grabs is key. Lucina can use her speed to close the distance and get Zelda off the stage. Likewise, a well-timed grab from Zelda can seriously change the tides of the game. In general, Zelda has more options and comboability after a grab, but Lucina will most likely go for more grabs to change the momentum. Whoever can maintain the ground game in this match better usually will come out on top.

Air Game
In the air, Lucina has the fortunate stance that Fair and Nair are good at keeping Zelda at bay in aerial combat. Although they aren't incredibly strong, every hit counts. Lucina should try and capitalize every opportunity she gets to rack up damage when Zelda is in the air. Lucina will be doing more of the hitting in general in this MU; if you can zone out Zelda's approach with a mix of your ground normals, speed and aerial moves, Zelda will have difficulty trying to keep up. For Zelda, she can't directly challenge against Lucina's aerials, but well-placed aerial moves can lead to an early kill and change the tides. In general though, Zelda should stay away from directly committing to aerial combat, whereas Lucina should try and make the best out of her aerials to do damage.

KO Power
Both characters have pretty good ways to kill, and it all starts with rage. Lucina has the advantage on the ground to kill, as Usmash and Fsmash will kill pretty early if spaced properly. Zelda will most likely get her kills from Fsmash, Farore's Wind, and well timed aerials should Lucina is not wary. It's a game of hot potato in this MU where the characters slowly build up each other's percentage, putting them at an advantage to kill early or get killed. Zelda in general has an advantage in this aspect due to having more options and the ability to kill extremely early, so Lucinas must try and get the KO as soon as they can before rage rears its head and works the other way.

Ledge Game
This is where a potential gamebreaker can happen. Zelda can net her kills very well if Lucina does not safely get back onstage from the ledge. However, Lucina has more options to get back on due to her fast aerials and Counter. Mixing these options up and keep the Zelda player guessing and get back on stage to regain stage control. This cannot be said the same for Zelda, as most of the time, she will be doing a normal get-up, being her "safest" option. A well timed Fsmash from Lucina can get her an early kill and the advantage for the rest of the match, which is probably where Lucina should try and fish for kills.

EdgeguardingZelda's edgeguard game is better than some people think she does. Her aerials can kill extremely early should Lucina not be wary of how she's recovering. Dsmash is a great punish if Lucina does not properly sweetspot the ledge with UpB. Luckily, Zelda's Dtilt doesn't work as well on Lucina as the sword protects the ledge relatively well. But as Lucina's recovery is subpar at best, Zelda will be fishing for kills and gimps in this aspect. On the other hand, Lucina can use Dtilt or a hard read Fsmash/USmash to edgeguard onstage, but Zelda's recovery is very solid, so it might be better to stay on stage and punish on the ledge get-up rather than risking getting gimped yourself for overcommitting.

Other Notes
- As shields will be up for a lot of the MU, Lucina's SideB is great for shield pressure, and B can potentially catch a Zelda sleeping and break her shield.
- SideB in general for Lucina can juggle Zelda well, as Zelda lacks much aerial options.
- Patience is key. Zelda can be zoning to her heart's content, but the Lucina player must be patient about it. Likewise, approaching with Zelda on Lucina's sword is not exactly easy.
- Both characters want momentum and stage control. Whoever can do that better and net the early kills will be victorious.
- In general, platforms help Lucina more than Zelda, but be wary that Zelda can use platforms to mix up her recovery and go under Lucina for a Uair or Lightning Kick kill.
- Zelda prefers stages with low ceilings, so Lucina should avoid such stages to prevent getting killed early by a Farore's Wind.

STAGE BANS
Neutral: Battlefield, Smashville
: Final Destination, Halberd, Duck Hunt
: Town and City, Lylat Cruise


VERDICT
55 : 45

... and I promise to behave from now on. :^(

 

[Macchiato]

Neutral Game
Due to Lucina's moves not safe on shield, we can punish hard. Also since her range is shorter than marth's, it won't be that hard. We don't need to approach because we have a projectile and she doesn't forcing Lucina to approach. Fortunately for Lucina, Zelda is defensive and Lucina has the ShieldBreaker. A good read could easily get a kill for Lucina. Lucina doesn't have combos unless Zeldas at 0%. Zelda does so she can rack up damage much faster. Due to her size we can throw out Lightning kicks oos. Lucina should mix up her attacks, grab, and shield breaker. We just need to be cautious and not be too predictable.

Edgeguarding
Zelda is probably one of the best edgeguarders in the game. Lucina isn't affected by her Dtilt at the ledge. Zelda still can dair so Lucina has to watch out but he recovery is pretty predictable. Lucina can't edgeguard zelda well because Zeldas is super safe. Though if she gets us in a fair chain, she can ken combo us. Also if we miss the edge, she can punish us. Zelda will be fine if she always sweetspots the edge.

Kill Power
I would say they're pretty similar but zelda has a small advantage. She has the elevator which kills fast. We do need to watch for her Usmash because that is her strongest kill move. Due to her unsafe attacks, we can punish with a smash attack also. Lucina's kill moves are Usmash, Shield Breaker, Fsmash, Uthrow, Uair, and Dsmash to some extent. She has no kill combos so her kills will most likely be off of a read or punish.

Sass
Lucina loses because she's a Mop

Score
65-35 Zelda

 

[BJN39]

Also, to be more specific on what I think @ SBphiloz4 means when saying "Farore's Wind" in his notes is our Farore's Wind Elevator. The first hit grounded combos into the second hit (DI dependent. For both Lucina AND Zelda.) and KOs quite early. It also hits frame 7 OoS and has very large hit-boxes all around. Just about never will Zelda be using FW reappear as an offensive option unless you're sitting around charging smashes and shield breaker.

 

[Ultimastrike]

I think I'll point out a few things that should be said(unless I missed them).

Ground Game:

1. Zelda's grabs always lead to potential combos. DThrow->NAir being her main damage racker(unless she wants to DThrow->UAir at low percent with a Full Hop so it auto cancels). If they DI wrong, BAir/FAir to attempt to sweetspot. Lucina's Grabs give her a free pummel before throwing, unless they mash out of it fast enough at low percent. Lucina can only combo DThrow-> UAir at 0-30%. Afterward, she cannot combo out of any of her throws.
2. Zelda's DTilt is great, but Lucina's reaches out farther than hers and is faster. If Zelda manages a DTilt at 20-40%, she can DTilt>...>FTilt if she wanted for a free combo.
3. Lucina's FTilt outranges Zelda's slightly.

Air Game:

1. All of Zelda's Aerials are laggy as heck(except for NAir) and require a full hop to auto cancel. This leads to commitment, but her UAir is very powerful when fresh and can lead to kills at 100%. Lucina's however are fast, and FAir outranges Zelda's own FAir(even BAir if Lucina's behind her).

Edgeguarding:

1. Zelda has the best Edgeguard against Lucina, as Din's Fire is able to be moved up and down as it moves forward. If Lucina's recovering high, Zelda's Phantom will intercept before Lucina manages to catch the ledge, potentially gimping her. Lucina on the other hand does not do well edgeguarding Zelda, as Zelda's Farore's Wind teleports her towards the direction that is inputted(which would be the ledge), so it'd be futile to go offstage and attempt a gimp(unless you want to attempt a DAir Spike, which is a potential hazard to Zelda should it be close to the ledge).

KO Potential:

1. Zelda's KO Potential is a above Lucina's, as Zelda has a powerful UAir, her sweetspots, and a DAir that can spike hard on a sweetspot. Lucina's, compared to Zelda's, isn't great, but she makes up for it in speed. FSmash is a good move, along with USmash(Roll punisher), and Shield Breaker. If Zelda's holding her shield when Shield Breaker comes out(at about half charge), she's going to get broken. Lucina's Dolphin Slash also has KO potential, provided Zelda's at high percents. Zelda's Farore's Wind, however, will KO at 90%(if both hits connect).

 

[Macchiato]

I think I'll point out a few things that should be said(unless I missed them).

Ground Game:

1. Zelda's grabs always lead to potential combos. DThrow->NAir being her main damage racker(unless she wants to DThrow->UAir at low percent with a Full Hop so it auto cancels). If they DI wrong, BAir/FAir to attempt to sweetspot. Lucina's Grabs give her a free pummel before throwing, unless they mash out of it fast enough at low percent. Lucina can only combo DThrow-> UAir at 0-30%. Afterward, she cannot combo out of any of her throws.
2. Zelda's DTilt is great, but Lucina's reaches out farther than hers and is faster. If Zelda manages a DTilt at 20-40%, she can DTilt>...>FTilt if she wanted for a free combo.
3. Lucina's FTilt outranges Zelda's slightly.

Air Game:

1. All of Zelda's Aerials are laggy as heck(except for NAir) and require a full hop to auto cancel. This leads to commitment, but her UAir is very powerful when fresh and can lead to kills at 100%. Lucina's however are fast, and FAir outranges Zelda's own FAir(even BAir if Lucina's behind her).

Edgeguarding:

1. Zelda has the best Edgeguard against Lucina, as Din's Fire is able to be moved up and down as it moves forward. If Lucina's recovering high, Zelda's Phantom will intercept before Lucina manages to catch the ledge, potentially gimping her. Lucina on the other hand does not do well edgeguarding Zelda, as Zelda's Farore's Wind teleports her towards the direction that is inputted(which would be the ledge), so it'd be futile to go offstage and attempt a gimp(unless you want to attempt a DAir Spike, which is a potential hazard to Zelda should it be close to the ledge).

KO Potential:

1. Zelda's KO Potential is a above Lucina's, as Zelda has a powerful UAir, her sweetspots, and a DAir that can spike hard on a sweetspot. Lucina's, compared to Zelda's, isn't great, but she makes up for it in speed. FSmash is a good move, along with USmash(Roll punisher), and Shield Breaker. If Zelda's holding her shield when Shield Breaker comes out(at about half charge), she's going to get broken. Lucina's Dolphin Slash also has KO potential, provided Zelda's at high percents. Zelda's Farore's Wind, however, will KO at 90%(if both hits connect).

Actually the Farores wind oos kills at like 75%

 

[Ultimastrike]

Thought it was something like 90. Oh well, at least there's plenty of information here.

 

[GrayFox8983]

I contacted @ GrayFox8983 yesterday after I got back home for our match but he did not respond. Also I have a tournament today so this might be a bit delayed.

Was busy with family business all day yesterday so I didn't have the time to get to the match. Sorry bud ^^; Also, I work over night so the best times to catch me are usually during the day. Looking forward to doing this crew battle with you. We just need to agree on a time.... again.. >> xD

 

[Locuan]

Was busy with family business all day yesterday so I didn't have the time to get to the match. Sorry bud ^^; Also, I work over night so the best times to catch me are usually during the day. Looking forward to doing this crew battle with you. We just need to agree on a time.... again.. >> xD

Yes definitely. We should look to speed up the process.

 

[GrayFox8983]

Yes definitely. We should look to speed up the process.

You're at a tournament correct? Perhaps we can set a time for sometime during the day tomorrow?

 

[Locuan]

You're at a tournament correct? Perhaps we can set a time for sometime during the day tomorrow?

No I am not at a tournament. That was yesterday.

 

[GrayFox8983]

No I am not at a tournament. That was yesterday.

oh. LOL! ok xD no problem. when would you like to play? ^^

 

[Locuan]

oh. LOL! ok xD no problem. when would you like to play? ^^

Tomorrow will be a good day. After 5PM CST.

Thanks for the discussion on the Zelda Match-Up! This week we will focus on the Donkey Kong Match-Up. Let's get started!

 

[Big O]

DK vs Lucina/Marth is one of my most played MU's. The only things that scare me when I play against a Lucina are Shieldbreaker and Counter. It might just be a personal thing, but anytime I play one that uses Counter intelligently I play much safer and respect your landings. Your best bet in terms of winning is to force DK into juggle traps or offstage. Overall, the MU is mostly footsies and DK has the upper hand in a battle of attrition.

On the ground DK has the advantage. He has more range than you, more power, and more useful tools. His Down B gets around all grounded defensive options and is a good poke. His punch KO's as early as 60% while being safe on block. He can shield break with Headbutt if your shield is even lightly damaged.

In the air DK is at a disadvantage if he isn't facing backwards. His Bair demands respect and can trade favorably with your Fair/Nair. In juggle scenarios he can't really do much to protect himself other than try to jump away/grab a ledge or desperation Dairs and air dodges.

Offstage you can't really gimp DK outside of footstools, Dair spikes, and random unteched stage spikes. If you go really deep you can KO with Fair/Bair at higher %'s. If you aren't careful offstage DK can easily gimp you horizontally with Bair/Nair, especially if he intercepts you shortly after your double jump. DK's Fair/Dair spikes are pretty much KO's past like 20%, so getting hit with those will usually end your stock.

I'd say DK has the advantage in this MU. Somewhere between 65:35 and 55:45. I'd probably stick with 6:4.

 

[RomanceDawn]

I've been playing this match up with DK a lot recently and the one thing I can add is about the off stage counter when DK recovers. When DK is far and you know he has to recover with spinning kong counter can very reliably keep him off the stage. A few people I played could get me over and over again.

Be mindful however, as long as DK isn't too far, he can use his up B and stall in place for just a moment letting a countering Lucina just fall right past him.

 

[AufWiedersehen]

Just wondering: would it be helpful for match-up discussion if we collected videos of specific Lucina matchups in this thread? Or should videos remain in the thread dedicated to videos?

 

[Locuan]

Alright guys, thanks for your input. This discussion period we will focus on the King Dedede match-up. I also extended the days for the discussion periods since work has gotten a bit hectic over the past few weeks and will probably remain in that manner for a few months.

Just wondering: would it be helpful for match-up discussion if we collected videos of specific Lucina matchups in this thread? Or should videos remain in the thread dedicated to videos?

If it's to reinforce the discussion you are building, it is suggested that you use videos to highlight your points.

 

[DrCactus]

Don't have much experience with it, but this MU seems kinda tough. DDD will probably be able to out space us. but DDD is also a big guy, so he'll probably be able to get juggled easily. Nair is pretty handy against tall characters. Shield Breaker might help if they're ftilt happy. Smart counters will also help, since some of his attacks seem kinda slow.

Hopefully some of the good king's mains will be able to shed some more light on this MU.

 

[Flawed]

I'm pretty sure we win. Double jab > grab > one aerial > one trading aerial string is like 36%.

We outrange Lucina with f-tilt, we live a whole lot longer and we can trade Nair with lucinas up b
I bait counters like mad, since I love to grab as well.

The only thing that makes gives lucina an edge, is that b reversed shield breaker, since D3 has trouble approaching (most are going to run up and shield) that is super rough...

 

[TMJ_Jack]

I'll be brief. If you ever see His Majesty charging the jet hammer, don't be a smartass and try to counter it.I absolutely love to stall my attacks, especially the jet hammer. If a Lucina or really anyone counters, all I have to do is wait an extra couple frames to staight murder the dummy who tried to counter. If the counter arrives, you get an insta-kill, but it never does. Do yourself a favor and use a jab to cancel the jet hammer. Long live the King!

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

D3 is a pain to attempt outrange: he has plenty of power to top that and grab strings aren't fun to watch.
Good spacing to weave into him and not his hammer or similar hits can be good here.
Observe also his aerial movement as he's rather nasty there, and with multiple jumps, can easily bait you to try attacking and react appropriately. (B-Airs or FF NAirs come to mind)

His hammer can deal annoying shield damage too with some moves, so it's best not to getting in his range incase he readies some of 'em. A well-read counter to D3's hard hitters can be a game changer though, but as long as you can anticipate the attack properly and don't apply it to extendable moves (Jet Hammer).

You can juggle or poke him around nicely due his big size though, so don't hold back too much with those when you close in. I like to use some of the specials, along with F-Airs or U-Airs with U-Tilts in good measure. His rolls are also a bit on the slow side too. The sword hits can also help dealing with Gordo Spamming or similar (Jab and F-Tilt).
A bit of a biggie to take out tho, his weight might make him difficult to kill. At least Lucy's F-Smash will be more reliable than Marth's here, probably.

Gimping D3 isn't recommended, unless you can ensure he runs out of jumps or can punish his Up B on the way on stage. The former is more unprobable to happen though.

I think the MU on this might favor D3 somewhat more than Lucy, but gladly there are reliable options and factors to fight back and potentially trump the king. Dunno on good D3s though, they could potentially round up the weaknesses with better play and make it difficult to get in. We just fight back.

 

[slavoslav]

I main Dedede and I rarely have trouble with Lucina. The King outranges her and most importantly she can't reliably shut down his gordo game. In theory she should have a relatively easy time reflecting them with her disjoints but in practice it's always a risk or commitment if you lack a spammable projectile. Despite Lucina's decent gimping game, attempting to challenge the King off-stage is generally a horrible idea since a well-spaced fair or uair will easily outprioritize anything Lucina can do in the air, not to mention the risk of getting gordo'd. Baiting Dedede's fair off-stage and going in for a counter might be Lucina's best option but that takes balls and it's probably not going to work more than once on a good opponent lel.
Without gimps she has to rely on damage-racking and hard reads to get those kills. However, Dedede is known for his huge amount of body fat muscle mass so he tends to live forever. On the downside he can be juggled for days. Unfortunately for Lucina, she isn't exactly the best at juggling.

I just don't feel like I have to respect anything Lucina can do in this match-up. I'd argue it's at least 60:40 in Dedede's favor.

 

[Locuan]

Hey everyone, thank you all for the input. This discussion period, we will focus on the Mii Brawler Match-Up. Let's get started!

 

[AufWiedersehen]

We making any assumptions about Mii Brawler's moveset or size?

I'm experimenting with Mii Brawler as a secondary, running the 2122 moveset (Ultimate Uppercut, Onslaught, Helicopter Kick, Feint Jump) with minimum height/weight.
I believe Mii Brawler is the fastest walker in the game when min height/weight, and can Fair combo to Helicopter Kick for the kill.

(X-post from Mii Brawler boards, not my video or Mii)

I dunno what standards are going to be enforced about size and shape for Mii's, maybe EVO will set some sort of de facto standard but it might be in the best interest of Mii Brawler mains to push for a min height/weight standard.

Anyway, min/height Mii Brawler is very powerful, but has very little attack range, and has insane ending lag from smash attacks. Onslaught can close the gap when she's too far away, and kill at high enough percentage. Think of Mii Brawler as sort of like a short Little Mac with slightly better recovery capability but not all of the super armor. Feint Jump is sort of like ZSS's down b but much less powerful.

I'll admit I've never played against a Mii Brawler as Lucina, and if I was against another Lucina I would just go for the ditto match instead of using Mii Brawler.

 

[Locuan]

There's a lot to cover about Mii Brawler. And since a lot of things still aren't set in stone we can discuss all the variations that are tournament legal at the moment. However, it would be best to focus on those that are the most prominent throughout tournaments.

 

[Macchiato]

I wish I could distribute but I haven't played one mii brawler