Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy

[Blackbelt]

Sheesh, I disapear for awhile, and none of you have the testicular fortitude to start a new thread.


I'm kinda shocked, to be honest.


Whatever, since I noticed someone mention it, we'll discuss ZSS next.



And honestly, I shouldn't even be doing this still, since I honestly haven;t used Lucas in a good two months. I mean, I still like the guy, but I was never that good to begin with using him.

 

[Earthbound Zero]

You guys should have a vote on who would be the best to take over the new matchup thread.

 

[ZMan]

I'll make another one cause I have nothing better to do with my time.

And I misread the tiltile as Zero **** Samus

 

[Blackbelt]

I'll make another one cause I have nothing better to do with my time.

And I misread the tiltile as Zero **** Samus

I'll finish off the characters, simply because I have control of the thread, but I'm in no position to write summaries or contribute (for the most part)

 

[ToxiCrow]

Well, i have to do a little more testing, but i believe PSI-magnet comes out faster than ZSS's downsmash.
now eliminating downsmash doesnt cripple ZSS, but it has an effect on her because it's still a big part of her game.
expect a glide-toss in the very begining. shield for the 1st second of the match. if u can reflect, awesome(but i wouldnt count on it; shielding is safer)
i'll write up more during the week

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Well, i have to do a little more testing, but i believe PSI-magnet comes out faster than ZSS's downsmash.
now eliminating downsmash doesnt cripple ZSS, but it has an effect on her because it's still a big part of her game.
expect a glide-toss in the very begining. shield for the 1st second of the match. if u can reflect, awesome(but i wouldnt count on it; shielding is safer)
i'll write up more during the week

no testing is needed. psi-magnet absorbs on frame 10. the hitbox for her dsmash comes out on frame 20.

don't expect a gilde toss. that would put them in a position where the rest of the armor parts are away from them. Be wary of one, but don't expect it.

 

[_clinton]

I'm thinking the match is even...

 

[S.D]

Please ensure you are wary of her forward b, it is just about the best thing ZSS has against Lucas. PKT1 is a relatively reliable gimp late on her recovery if hovered around the edge and her recovery zones. Be wary of trying to gimp by grabbing the ledge for edgegaurd gimps as her recovery options are surprisingly numerous and varied, plus her down b or whatever that flip move is has a surprise spike on the end of it.

 

[TheRockSays]

Well, i have to do a little more testing, but i believe PSI-magnet comes out faster than ZSS's downsmash.
now eliminating downsmash doesnt cripple ZSS, but it has an effect on her because it's still a big part of her game.
expect a glide-toss in the very begining. shield for the 1st second of the match. if u can reflect, awesome(but i wouldnt count on it; shielding is safer)
i'll write up more during the week

Quite true but what kind of ZSS player would use down smash against healers O_o unless your my partner u wont be seeing it much.

And topic starter fix the name u messed up.

 

[LordMars]

Misscalculations of the psi magnet could have consequences, like a side-b right in your face, anyways, I use it unpredictable, so 99% of the time my opponent cannot absorb it and he's a good Lucas
PKT1 as edgeguarder? Won't help too much, good ZSS can get through and Lucas is in danger,

another thing you should be aware of is your second jump into snake at the edge, down-smash, bair or footstool, I sometimes got a k.o. because my opponents didn't expect that and you fall straight down, good edgeguard and you are history (if you don't know it, of course).

Lucas can kill ZSS pretty early, but ZSS can be dangerous, too.

50-50 in my eyes

 

[Earthbound Zero]

Misscalculations of the psi magnet could have consequences, like a side-b right in your face, anyways, I use it unpredictable, so 99% of the time my opponent cannot absorb it and he's a good Lucas
PKT1 as edgeguarder? Won't help too much, good ZSS can get through and Lucas is in danger,

another thing you should be aware of is your second jump into snake at the edge, down-smash, bair or footstool, I sometimes got a k.o. because my opponents didn't expect that and you fall straight down, good edgeguard and you are history (if you don't know it, of course).

Lucas' Tether isn't slow enough to punish like that, unless you're stupid enough to sit there and wait for ZSS to attack you. o_o;

And PKT1 Gimps aren't impossible, in fact, they aren't that hard to do on ZSS.

Also, Side-B has starting lag and can be shielded after Dsmash, as long as Lucas doesn't get hit with it.

ZSS Smaus has a supreior spacing game and lLucas will have to find a hole in her defense and punish.

 

[Tyr_03]

Lucas has a small advantage.

Catch a part. You can **** her with it. Best strategy once you have a ZSS part is full hop, throw it downward in front of her and then fast fall Uair behind her. If she shields she gets hit into her own bouncing part which will shield poke her. If she spotdodges, Ftilt. If she doesn't shield you just combo'd her with her own part. As soon as you get her off the ledge, go near the edge and throw a part downward on the ground near the ledge. It will bounce and keep her from getting on allowing you to PKT1, Bair or whatever you can with relative safety. A lot of ZSS players will throw away all but one part for this reason. But if you can catch a part when she throws it at you or stop it with a jab and then pick it up, do it.

A lot of ZSS players do really stupid stuff with side B like wait for you to approach and then just throw it out there. It's really easy to just perfect shield and then punish. I would assume better ZSS players won't let you for long though. If you get hit by side B, DI upwards to avoid the knockback hit. Dsmash is not easy to absorb or punish. It's a pretty gay move. Just try to stay out of its range. That's your best bet. Absorb her neutral B if she uses it.

Edgeguarding her actually is really difficult if she knows what she's doing. Her down B has stupid invincibility frames and priority. All she has to do is wait for PKT1 and hit it with that to knock it out. Don't depend on just hanging on the ledge either. She can B reverse an Up B to pull you down and then do one to save herself. Also watch out for wall jump recoveries which can put a Bair in your face, one of her kill moves. You're probably only going to be able to edgeguard her with PKT1 if she's recovering low because she won't be able to use down B.

If you're ever above her, just use Dair. There's nothing she has that can hit through it. Outprioritizes her Uair, Up B, Usmash etc. She can only really juggle you if she catches you off guard or out of a combo.

If she jabs you just jab her back. Her first jab comes out in one frame but after that her moves are slower and you can get in your 2 frame jab usually.

The key is to play more defensively than she does. Most of her approaches are extremely risky for her except for her side B. So just stay out of its range or punish her when she's predictable with it.

 

[ToxiCrow]

Quite true but what kind of ZSS player would use down smash against healers O_o unless your my partner u wont be seeing it much.

And topic starter fix the name u messed up.

tbh, i never played against a ZSS player before. i'm learning how to use her tho.
i was just saying we dont hav to worry about downsmash as much as other characters do (fox)
and judging by ur icon,i can see you use ZSS. what are her ko moves? right now, all i no are
-over b
-down b
- fair
-bair
-uair
what are her other ko-ing moves? (if she has any more)

Misscalculations of the psi magnet could have consequences, like a side-b right in your face, anyways, I use it unpredictable, so 99% of the time my opponent cannot absorb it and he's a good Lucas
PKT1 as edgeguarder? Won't help too much, good ZSS can get through and Lucas is in danger,

another thing you should be aware of is your second jump into snake at the edge, down-smash, bair or footstool, I sometimes got a k.o. because my opponents didn't expect that and you fall straight down, good edgeguard and you are history (if you don't know it, of course).

Lucas can kill ZSS pretty early, but ZSS can be dangerous, too.

50-50 in my eyes

PKT1 is amazing at edgeguarding, but i dont think lucas has to rely on it so much with this match up. he's got several moves that can ko: forward smash, downsmash, fair, uair, downthrow, and the occasional upsmash.
lucas' dair overides most moves, so he can meteor smash zss with that and spike with bair.
we can still use PKT1, but not as much as we would like to

i think Lucas has the advantage, but thats going with the data i hav right now

 

[prOAPC]

her down b kick is annoying

 

[Chuee]

Yeah it seems like lucas has the advantage.
At the beginning try to keep the parts away from her. Absorb the paralyzer and dsmash as often as you can. Never try to punish dsmash, it has no lag frames.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

If you're ever above her, just use Dair. There's nothing she has that can hit through it. Outprioritizes her Uair, Up B, Usmash etc. She can only really juggle you if she catches you off guard or out of a combo.

Dair beats ZSS usmash? This is news to me. That whip is definitely longer than our dinky little hexagons...

 

[thecatinthehat]

Am I really the only one who's going crazy over the typo in the title right now?

It's driving me insane.

 

[Neon Ness]

Am I really the only one who's going crazy over the typo in the title right now?

It's driving me insane.

Zero Siut... Well, I guess it's better than ZZS. People at the Zero Suit Boards hate that acronym.

 

[TheRockSays]

tbh, i never played against a ZSS player before. i'm learning how to use her tho.
i was just saying we dont hav to worry about downsmash as much as other characters do (fox)
and judging by ur icon,i can see you use ZSS. what are her ko moves? right now, all i no are
-over b
-down b
- fair
-bair
-uair
what are her other ko-ing moves? (if she has any more)



PKT1 is amazing at edgeguarding, but i dont think lucas has to rely on it so much with this match up. he's got several moves that can ko: forward smash, downsmash, fair, uair, downthrow, and the occasional upsmash.
lucas' dair overides most moves, so he can meteor smash zss with that and spike with bair.
we can still use PKT1, but not as much as we would like to

i think Lucas has the advantage, but thats going with the data i hav right now

ZSS has to much recovery can be seen in adapts new guide. For her ko moves are back air, up air, side b and down b(is the most unpredictable move so far weird hit boxes it can spike it can kill at about 90% plus if used right.) Down Smash you do have to worry about it about 90%.

 

[TheRockSays]

Am I really the only one who's going crazy over the typo in the title right now?

It's driving me insane.

Yes it driving me insane to i find it disrespectful. Lucas has only one advantage and that is up smash and down smash because it can kill at low percentage thats y side b is a better approach for a ZSS player.

 

[ToxiCrow]

^^^^
hey there's another Platano lover here!
i havent met many domicans on smashboards yet. it's always good to see my domician brothers playing smash lol
and i didnt say u dont hav to worry about downsmash, just not as much as fox owuld

and zero suit samus is so much a better character than zero siut samus

 

[Neon Ness]

Blackbelt's the only one who could change the typo, but he kind of... vanished.

Or, I guess a modurater could change it...

 

[prOAPC]

Am I really the only one who's going crazy over the typo in the title right now?

It's driving me insane.

i read it as zero **** samus >_>
60-40 Lucas wins

 

[Adapt]

Lucas has a small advantage.

Catch a part. You can **** her with it. Best strategy once you have a ZSS part is full hop, throw it downward in front of her and then fast fall Uair behind her. If she shields she gets hit into her own bouncing part which will shield poke her. If she spotdodges, Ftilt. If she doesn't shield you just combo'd her with her own part.

wait... why is ZSS letting you do this... rather than back up and maintain her medium range? or doing an up smash which would hit you and watch the part bounce in front of her...

As soon as you get her off the ledge, go near the edge and throw a part downward on the ground near the ledge. It will bounce and keep her from getting on allowing you to PKT1, Bair or whatever you can with relative safety.

ZSS will flipstool (down-B footstool) the part and sail across the stage far out of your range.

A lot of ZSS players do really stupid stuff with side B like wait for you to approach and then just throw it out there. It's really easy to just perfect shield and then punish. I would assume better ZSS players won't let you for long though. If you get hit by side B, DI upwards to avoid the knockback hit.

If you get hit by the weak portion of her side-B than the ZSS is stupid... it's a spacing move and you will likely get hit by the tip of the move which is much harder to punish and much stronger.

If you're ever above her, just use Dair. There's nothing she has that can hit through it. Outprioritizes her Uair, Up B, Usmash etc. She can only really juggle you if she catches you off guard or out of a combo.

up-B loses, but up-smash wins over your dair. I dunno about uair atm will get back to you when I get a chance to test.

If she jabs you just jab her back. Her first jab comes out in one frame but after that her moves are slower and you can get in your 2 frame jab usually.

I'm pretty sure she can jab again before you can jab or grab her if you shield the third hit of her jab combo

I tend to think this match is pretty even... but I am better than the only Lucas player I know so I can't really gauge the match properly...

 

[Tyr_03]

^^^^
I'm talking the first jab. you can get hit and then jab her before she gets her next jab or a jab cancelled move out.

The ZSS parts usually backs her up against the edge of the stage. And ZSS options above her suck. Her Usmash is slow as hell and you can just airdodge and fastfall to punish her.

Uair will hit through Dair but only when spaced just right. Usmash and Up B don't. And besides that it's really freaking easy to avoid her Usmash. Again, it's slow.

It's really easy to move inside the range of her side B. It's a slow move. You can always see it coming. It's easy to shield. It's easy to get inside its range. Get over it. Point is, if you do happen to get hit by it, you can DI up and unless it's sweetspotted escape the hit.

Footstool to down B? Please. Why the hell would I let her do that. It's called waiting for her invincibility frames to run out. Unless she can footstool me during my attack somehow (which she can't) that's not even possible. Let's assume not complete stupidity here.

I know she's your main but come on. Those aren't even good arguments. Best one was for her Uair which is actually decent. Still easily avoidable outside of combos though.

Again, I only think it's a slight advantage for Lucas. Just giving some things that work.

 

[Adapt]

^^^^
I'm talking the first jab. you can get hit and then jab her before she gets her next jab or a jab cancelled move out.

The ZSS parts usually backs her up against the edge of the stage. And ZSS options above her suck. Her Usmash is slow as hell and you can just airdodge and fastfall to punish her.

Uair will hit through Dair but only when spaced just right. Usmash and Up B don't. And besides that it's really freaking easy to avoid her Usmash. Again, it's slow.

It's really easy to move inside the range of her side B. It's a slow move. You can always see it coming. It's easy to shield. It's easy to get inside its range. Get over it. Point is, if you do happen to get hit by it, you can DI up and unless it's sweetspotted escape the hit.

Footstool to down B? Please. Why the hell would I let her do that. It's called waiting for her invincibility frames to run out. Unless she can footstool me during my attack somehow (which she can't) that's not even possible. Let's assume not complete stupidity here.

I know she's your main but come on. Those aren't even good arguments. Best one was for her Uair which is actually decent. Still easily avoidable outside of combos though.

Again, I only think it's a slight advantage for Lucas. Just giving some things that work.

1. you can't shield in between the first 2 jabs, only shield the third. I dunno if you can jab or not. Maybe you can, but it's after the second, not the first...

2. Upsmash comes out in 8 frames, this is fast for a smash... Lucas' smashes are all slower than that... make sure you check the available frame data before you say thing are slow.

3. I just tested usmash vs dair right before I posted that... It lost occasionally, but won most of the time.

4. the point is... a zss is not gonna send out a side-B when you are near by... the point is to keep you away, not really hit with it. The move just keeps you from running in too close where you can use you more powerful moves. Yes you can DI up if you get hit by the muzzle flash... but it rarely happens because ZSS won't throw the move out that close..

5. You clearly have no idea about ZSS's moveset... the flipstool is a special footstool built into the down-B. You can read this topic: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206384 to learn more about the down-B. You flipstool the armor piece and easily get onto the stage from the edge.

6. She can flipstool pretty much every move of Lucas' except for usmash and the projectiles without getting hit. Maybe not utilt, but I would bet she can.

 

[Blackbelt]

sheesh, friggin spelling nazis.


anyway, who should be discussed next?

 

[LittLeLives]

I suggest Pit. Just because I was playing a set against him today and nearly lost. Good thing Corneria and Norfair were there. 45-55 sounds about right.
I have trouble gimping him which is a huge part of my Lucas game.

 

[heytallman]

I suggest Pit. Just because I was playing a set against him today and nearly lost. Good thing Corneria and Norfair were there. 45-55 sounds about right.
I have trouble gimping him which is a huge part of my Lucas game.

I'm pretty sure we already dicussed Pit....it says 45/55 on the front page, in Pit's favor. I think there's only like, two characters we haven't done yet.

Also, I totally read your name as "Little Levitas" lol

 

[TheRockSays]

Lucas Players think they got it all figured out most of the time ZSS is one of those most unpredictable characters in the game. Seriously its very dumb to absorb her paralyzer shot it just leaves lucas open for a grab to get punish very hard for it.

 

[_Void_]

You can cancel the Magnet into a Spot Dodge or Side Roll, dodging the grab
Still, this matchup is even and not in Lucas' favour. In my opinion, at least.

 

[Irsic]

ZSS is probably one of the most frustrating match ups for me.

 

[ZMan]

ZZS is fun for me. I like Nairing her.

I think that when you absorb Zero **** Samus's dsmash, you get a free psi magnet off on her, oes anyone want to test that?

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

it depends on how far away you are when you absorb it. actually now that i think about it... i'm not sure. i am pretty sure that ZSS dsmash has like almost 0 lag. i would take the safe root and just cancel the psi magnet.

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

I've never fought a lucas player that beat me (which leads me to think he's the worst character, but that's my simple opinion) so I cant say if zss is better or if I am. so I cant add to this matchup. but I can add to Pink Fresh by saying zss has very little lag, if not none at all, after dsmash and could probably hit you with a jab right after it (and it comes out at frame 1) so I dont think absorbing it is a good Idea unless you REALLY need the percent taken off.

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

ZZS is fun for me. I like Nairing her.

I think that when you absorb Zero **** Samus's dsmash, you get a free psi magnet off on her, oes anyone want to test that?

*cough*

EDIT: While I'm here, why do people in forums hate double posts?

 

[Irsic]

I don't know, double posts don't bother me at all. Who cares, anyway?

And yes, ZSS's downsmash has 0 ending lag.

After finding this out, I don't try to absorb anymore.

 

[ZMan]

I'm probably wrong but since you can cancel magnet upon absorbing with shield you can just powershield the first hit of ZZS's jab. Someone should test this out though.

 

[S.D]

*cough*

EDIT: While I'm here, why do people in forums hate double posts?

Because you could just edit your last post...

 

[Blackbelt]

Moving on tomorrow. Still need a suggestion for the next guy.


Say it if you wanna say it.