Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy

[ToxiCrow]

zelda.
10char

 

[Luur3]

Yeah, I vote for Zelda as well. Din's Fire isnt a problem for me but her **** smashes >.<

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

nooooooooooo... i remember the last time this was discussed...

 

[lil cj]

Those Zelda mains
are passionate about their character
and it seems like they are all experts
IMO Zelda is one of the best characters in the game
A majority of her match ups are neutral(even against Lucas)
and she only has like 3 bad match ups Snake, Olimar, and G&W
Why am I discussing Zelda on the Lucas boards...lol....I guess the Zelda main in me is coming out....
yeah lets discuss Zelda next

 

[ToxiCrow]

i think lucas might hav the advantage, but i'll wait until we discuss it =]

 

[Chuee]

Blackbelt needs to put who has the advantage in the first post.

 

[Blackbelt]

Ok, we'll talk Zelda, than after that Sheik, than after that whoever's left.


And I'm putting ZSS at 55-45.



Now let's talk Zelda.

 

[Neon Ness]

BLACKBELT!!! You're alive!

I've only fought one good Zelda consistently. But 2 good ones total...

Recovering near ther stage is tough. Her sweetspot aerials come quick and hard, making it pretty much fatal trying to recover at close range. PSI Magnet shuts down Din's Fire, and Nayru's Love is a pain. Stops Fire, Freeze, and Thunder, and juggles at close range leading into a down or up smash. Edgeguarding against her is... moot, to be honest. Spacing is important, and Lucas excels at it. Ftilt and grabs outrange her on land for the most part, if I recall correctly. Nair combos are tough to pull off since you have to get close... and getting close means risking a down tilt trap, which is baaaaad. Her feet are lethal.

 

[Blackbelt]

Of course I'm alive.



I'm just really ****ing busy with work.

 

[Kataefi]

Hi! ^^ They pretty much run even. Her ground game is slightly superior with the added range. His dair goes through her upsmash, but she can use it OoS or from a spotdodge to catch you offguard in between the multiple hits and suck you in. But it's possible for him to SDI out of her smashes quite well.

Din's is rarely used. I personally like to detonate it straight away as lucas players tend to immediately throw out their psimagnet which slows down any momentum they might have had.

He has this amazing vertical recovery which allows her to chase with uairs (they will definitely kill you early - think your USmash but the aerial version =O ). Her recovery can also be punished but you'll need to predict her teleport landing.

And she has a very annoying dtilt lock and Lucas, being small, can get caught in it quite well. Dtilt is like a secret hidden move she throws out every so often that chains itself together and links so well to DSmash or Utilt, which are both killer moves at moderately high percents - and Dtilt outranges a lot of what Lucas has on the ground =o so you must take care!

 

[S.D]

Watch out for the hitbox at the end of Zelda's upb, a lot of Zelda players will try to catch you out with this so I generally put myself in range as bait then spotdodge giving you time to punish with anything you like. Her recovery doesn't sweetspot well either so you can take her out with a dsmash at times too. Vertically think of her recovery like Wolf's, no momentum change after the recover move, simple to edgeguard. Try not to use pkt2 to recover, din's fire will shut it down every time. Magnet pulling eliminates this option. Wavebounce PK fire to stay out of range of neutral b reflection. Dair is a weapon of choice in this match and seems to beat out most of her attacks. Tilts jabs and anything that comes out fast works a treat. When in the air or recovering watch out for her up air. You're best served dodging that bad boy than trying to beat it with anything. Absorb dins fire if she is stupid enough to spam it, but most won't. In Lucas' favour in my experience.

 

[GodAtHand]

Lucas can be one of the most annoying fights, but it is certainly not one of the most difficult fights for a Zelda main. Din's fire is completely useless unless he is recovering, Lucas has options to recover without Pkt2 but if hit by a Dsmash he will most likely have to use it in order to gain the height he needs to reach the edge, and that is the only time you should use Din's. In this situation Din's will either kill him or do about 15% damage while popping him up allowing him to recover.

Dtilt lock is awesome in this match because Lucas really can't do much about it. It also leads into a Dsmash which as said before equals a dead Lucas or 15% damage.

As Zelda what I fear most from Lucas is his quick hitting tilts. Most of his other moves are easy enough to see coming but these ones can get quite obnoxious. His kill moves are usually rather easy to avoid. His Fsmash is fast but it completely outranged on the ground, and his UpSmash and Dsmash are slow and require a really good setup.

That said Lucas is also able to get into Zelda's comfort zone easier than most characters with his ariels. But careful blocking and a well-timed spot-dodge can lead into that Dtilt combo...

Nayru's can stop a lot of what Lucas has to offer on the ground, but Lucas's absorb nulls our Din's...

Hmm... 50-50 I say.

 

[ToxiCrow]

her downsmash is fast.
does her neutral b hav a little ending lag?

she's a great character. her smash attacks are all brutal
her u-b-d-f-air are all good
but this is winnable.

anyway, we like G.A.H said, Lucas has a bunch of moves annoy the crap out of zelda.
nair, dair, jab, ftilt, utilt, dtilt all come out pretty fast . and while her neutral B reflects PKF, chances are it wont make it back to you if ur spacing properly.
Lucas also has a downtilt lock =]
however, zelda's is easier to do i think.... i used to play zelda but i havent used her in awhile.
naryu isnt so bad. PSI-M . if you're near the stage, just use you're rope snake. also, watch out for dair. u wont recover if you're hit by it (mid percentage)
when she's off the stage, try to predict when and where farore's wind is going to land. maybe u can grab the ledge before she does. dont do it too early, because it'll attack when she reappear's.
if think she's not going to land on the edge, then try to predict where she'll land on the stage and get an attack in. this is probably one of the few times u can actually grab too (shield grab tho)
zelda's good... but this match-up is winnable

i'm stuck between even/slight advantage for Ryuka
and i need to learn the ways of zelda again. i'll be lurking the zelda boards soon =]
represent

 

[lil cj]

Good summary ToxiCrow
Make sure u learn Sheik too
I agree with G.A.H. with this match up being 50-50...or maybe 55-45 Lucas' favor
As a main of both its hard to say who's better...like Ive pointed out before they are similar
But it can go either way...Lucas has more faster moves,can destroy Zelda off stage while she is trying to recover, and can KO her easily due to her light weight...Zelda can do the same to Lucas with Din's fire,she outrages him, and that dtilt lock is a killer

The way I see it is:

Agressive Lucas < Defensive Zelda
Defensive Lucas > Agressive Zelda
Agressive Lucas = Agressive Zelda
Defensive Lucas = Defensive Zelda

represent

 

[Chuee]

Lucas can be one of the most annoying fights, but it is certainly not one of the most difficult fights for a Zelda main. Din's fire is completely useless unless he is recovering, Lucas has options to recover without Pkt2 but if hit by a Dsmash he will most likely have to use it in order to gain the height he needs to reach the edge,

We have zap jump.
Naryu is annoying, lets put it at that since i dont know **** about zelda. Ive only played noob zeldas that spam dins.
represent

 

[MrEh]

Instead of spamming Din's, Zelda should be spamming her Dsmash. ^^

Too good.

 

[Neon Ness]

Sad but true.

"Spotdodge-down smash!"

...That's like the motto of our club.

~Original Gangsta.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I could say stuff in this matchup... but as long as it's seen as even I need not.

I'll just kind of lurk lest either side attempt to claim an advantage.

 

[Neon Ness]

I could say stuff in this matchup... but as long as it's seen as even I need not.

I'll just kind of lurk lest either side attempt to claim an advantage.

OH EM GEE SKRUB.

Zeld4 haz nothing on Lewk1s. If u try 2 hit us with Denny's ph1r3, Luk4z can hit h3rself with PEEk Liteneng and aviod it. U cant stawp upsamsh, it wil kil u at 0% lololol. Advantage Luc4s, 110:-10.

...Now will you contribute? I'd like as much input from Zeldas as we can get, since I have so little experience against them. Since it's even, knowing what and what not to do is even more important since the match could really go either way.

Or maybe you're hiding some fatal advantage Zelda has over us...!?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

OH EM GEE SKRUB.

Zeld4 haz nothing on Lewk1s. If u try 2 hit us with Denny's ph1r3, Luk4z can hit h3rself with PEEk Liteneng and aviod it. U cant stawp upsamsh, it wil kil u at 0% lololol. Advantage Luc4s, 110:-10.

...Now will you contribute? I'd like as much input from Zeldas as we can get, since I have so little experience against them. Since it's even, knowing what and what not to do is even more important since the match could really go either way.

Or maybe you're hiding some fatal advantage Zelda has over us...!?

heh fine fine. later then. I have lots on my plate for the next day or so. if you're still discussing come this weekend, I'll weigh in with my opinions based on what's been said already. but I think I already said stuff in our matchup thread.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190698&page=102
^It starts here and goes on for maybe 5 pages^

 

[ö&ö&ö&ö]

Zelda's projectile game is shot because of the Psi Magnet. Lucas's projectiles are limited to Wave-Bounced PK Fires and seldom PK Freezes. In close-combat, Zelda's f-smash and u-smash will trap Lucas if he tries to approach. I think the advantage is 62 - 38 for Zelda.

 

[ZMan]

You can DI out of d and f smash

 

[ToxiCrow]

I think the advantage is 62 - 38 for Zelda.

where'd you get those numbers from? gamefaqs? the match up is either 50-50 or 55-45 in Lucas' favor.
lucas' dair (which is his main approach) overrides zelda's upsmash. lucas has no trouble approaching her.
also, his recovery options are superior than zelda's.

You can DI out of d and f smash

amen dear brother.
but i think you mean Usmash.
but if u do mean Dsmash, then wow i didnt know that.

 

[Levitas]

You can't DI out of dsmash.


ö&ö&ö&ö: those numbers don't really make sense. It looks like you took 3 posts from july and smashed them together, one of which was someone using numbers that they don't understand.

 

[Blackbelt]

Alright, Mr. One Post aside, I think we can agree with 50-50 at this time.


I will be switching over to the Sheik matchup in about two hours, so if anyone wants to say something, say it now.

 

[ToxiCrow]

i think it's 55-45

 

[Blackbelt]

no one likes a smartass, kid.


And I'm going with 50-50.

 

[ToxiCrow]

i'm not trying to be a smartass.
i'm telling you i think it's 55-45.
but hey, i dont call the shots around here

 

[Kataefi]

We've got 50:50 on our boards if that helps? Though we don't mind either way ^^ I can see 55:45 for both of them if they build some momentum.

I quite enjoy fighting Lucas, always a good fight ^^

 

[Blackbelt]

We've got 50:50 on our boards if that helps? Though we don't mind either way ^^ I can see 55:45 for both of them if they build some momentum.

I quite enjoy fighting Lucas, always a good fight ^^

Yeah, but than again, Zelda isn't the problem.



Let's start discussing Sheik.


And I'm just gonna say one thing right now: Sheik beats Lucas. Seriously.

 

[Kataefi]

Lmao this is very true =O You shouldn't really be seeing Zelda anyways in this matchup if the player has half a brain cell.

 

[Luur3]

I dont have experience with Shiek, but we do have the projectile advantage. Shiek seems to have a good approach plan and decent damage racking skill. Im gonna say 60-40 Shiek until I look further into Shiek's game

 

[Kataefi]

Out of curiousity - are you going to discuss the combination of the duo? Because I believe they have a larger advantage than Sheik alone.

 

[Voyeur]

Lmao this is very true =O You shouldn't really be seeing Zelda anyways in this matchup if the player has half a brain cell.

which I guess brings us into the next matchup you're discussing; Sheik.
Going against Lucas with Sheik is one of the more favorable matches for us. And camping out with some needle abuse is always a thorn in Lucas' side. The 'geography' of any stage won't be putting either at an advantage, though Smashville, YI & Norfair always seem to play nicely to Sheik's strengths. Ftilt lock will do it's justice of course, & gimping due do Lucas poor recovery compared to Tether Chain. Really aggressive Sheik's can swarm in with great spacing Bairs and just stomp over a lot of Lucas' moves.

overall it's going to be about 40:60 or 35:65 Sheik's favor and solid 35:65 if it is Sheik/Zelda.
(you can't just rule out that option)

 

[Levitas]

I'd agree with that likelyhood.

 

[Neon Ness]

I dont have experience with Shiek, but we do have the projectile advantage.

Umm... how? If Lucas tries to hit with a projectile like PK Freeze/Thunder from a distance, Shiek could find a number of ways to avoid. Throw needles at Lucas to stop said projectile, or simply run up and cut his

while he's vulnerable. PK Fire is an exception to these conditions, but that alone isn't an 'advantage'. PK Fire is just an effective move on its own.

Blah. I have trouble with speed charcaters... Sonic, Shiek, Meta... They're tough. Lucas should keep the pressure on at close range to win this fight, I think... Like I was saying before, it looks like a stalemate at a distance. Do not grab. Ever. One missed grab = tilt lock 4 u. Approach with full hopped down airs; I can't think of a move of Sheik's that could outprioritize it from above. Beware up smash, though, the first hit goes above her... Shiek's needles will gimp a traditional PKT2, so it's best to zap jump when recovering. When Sheik is forced to aim for the ledge, a rope snake tether should edgehog her good. Beware the evil dash attack. It's... so... fast. And leads into other junk. Sidestepping it should work, but if Lucas sidesteps too often in this match, he'll eat needles more than he should.

 

[pyrotek7x7]

*cough* somebody do Mario *cough*

I'm a Mario main who was wondering what Lucas players thought of the matchup. I'm very offended that he isn't on the list yet. >_>

 

[Neon Ness]

*cough* somebody do Mario *cough*

I'm a Mario main who was wondering what Lucas players thought of the matchup. I'm very offended that he isn't on the list yet. >_>

HEY, YOU. STOP INTERRUPTING OUR IMPORTANT DISCUSSION.

We'll get there... unfortunately. The Mario matchup seems to be a touchy subject here...

 

[Voyeur]

I'd agree with that likelyhood.

oh I said something correct! Awesome, maybe my Sheik isn't as bad as I thought.

and @ Neon Ness' post be careful not to stay on the ledge of course if you're in range of Vanish getting a stage spike. Also, tethering there yourself could get you a needle tossed your way or reverse B to Bair then vanish for the recover. Fair also gives us 1/3 frame movement to get some possible leverage so we're not at a complete edge hogged disadvantage.
I'm also not sure if the chain's tip/stun effect would cancel out and out prioritize Lucas' Dairs. But it might

side note: some one posted in our board and I'm hoping other Sheik mains come with their input, but over all I think they'll agree on the matchup I posted. 40-60 or 35-65. Peace out

 

[Brinzy]

60:40 Sheik seems good to me. 65:35 seems possible, but his aerials CAN keep her out with proper spacing.