Lucas: Official Character Discussion

[Ulevo]

Discussion for Lucas. Anyone can suggest anything for any of these topics, and it'll be noted. Popular suggestions/values will be marked as such. Final values will be determined by popularity, so voice your opinion!

Suggested Offensive Modifications:

Suggested Defensive Modifications:


Default Physics:
SH:
FH:
FF:
DGrav:
Grav:

Physics Changes:

Specific Move Fixes:


Anything else:

 

[goodoldganon]

Here are the community suggestions from the Lucas topic. King DeDeDe will be next.

1. U-Smash :: Launch Power should be increased, and this is supposed to be a killer at ~80% on midweights on Final Destination. It's not as powerful with the higher gravities.

2. PK Freeze: Lower the knockback. It's useless as an edgeguard.

3. D-Tilt: Alter it to make it more combo friendly.

 

[kupo15]

Doesn't the dtilt trip people? How is it not combo friendly? Usmash would be somewhat fixed if we globally change the trajectories of all moves like I mentioned earlier. Then it would send more up instead of to the sides.

 

[shanus]

Man most people completely overexaggerate the effect gravity has on kill percent. Its pretty funny that they say that. Only 3 characters have gravities which make them die 5-7% later, and 12 others which die 3-5% later off the top. Its pretty funny how they post that consistently even though its far less than they think lol.

 

[kupo15]

Only 3 characters have gravity and the rest are vbrawl? What?

 

[shanus]

No, thats normgravity, not downgravity. Downgravity doesn't effect their kill percents. Normgrav does.

15/35 or so have amounts of normgrav that alter their kill percents. Most of which is around 3%.

 

[Almas]

DGrav modifies the point at which a person dies.

 

[shanus]

I tested 1.00 and 1.25 on a char and witnessed 0 change on a pure vert kill. Maybe was that when it was broken?

I was under the assumption that Dgrav is not applies till apex is reached, so how can that effect a pure vert kill if their dgrav is not applied since they never reach apex till they are off the ceiling?

 

[shanus]

edit: chatted with almas about it is, during knockback you are effected by dgrav, so I take back what I said.

I do wonder why my old tests didnt show anything, but it could have been during the whole gravity is broken shenanigans.

 

[kupo15]

Yea thats what I thought. The game registers you as falling upwards. I still think we need to fix the launch angles since I think we can. We can fix this move with the global change

 

[shanus]

I wonder if we can just take a moves hit and globally scale its vertical vector by X%.

 

[Ulevo]

I would say decrease the start up time of the Usmash. As it stands now, Lucas seems to really need some changes, and making a move that rarely hits stronger doesn't really seem promising to his character.

I believe either his Dthrow, Uthrow or both are lacking in combo potential because they send too far upward. In contrast his Bthrow and Fthrow don't kill very well from what I remember.

Oh, I did have one idea to really make Lucas better. What if we made his down special jump cancelable?

 

[Revven]

What does everyone think of Lucas' Nair? I think it's a bit too safe on shield. It ACs and while can be DI'd easily to escape, it is REALLY easy to spam it. I was playing today with a Lucas vBrawl main in Brawl+ and his MAIN approach was AC'd Nairs, and that's all he did ALL DAY. I would shield it and I couldn't shield grab it, it's way too safe on shields and makes it hard to get inside Lucas, especially for taller characters.

Thoughts? Other than that, Lucas is fine we just gotta fix his throws somehow.

 

[CT Chia]

i would say keep it as is. lucas isnt that great of a character so why make him worse? its not like he can spam nair all day and win. just cause u cant shield grab it doesnt mean its broken. its kind of low priority as it is u can just attack back at it. or shield and roll away. and keep space.

 

[Almas]

Last I checked, characters were allowed to have strengths.

Most moves have a "special" launch angle of like 363 degrees, which is registered as 20 or something. Changing trajectories could end up getting messy.

 

[Revven]

I was just asking what everyone thought about it was all, not that I wanted to change Nair haha.

 

[Ulevo]

Nair is only good in close quarters. It can't control space at all, and is a terrible approach since any attack can intercept it. Leave it alone.

 

[CT Chia]

some of the recent buffs to lucas need to be toned down. imo he literally went from however he was before (lowish?) to top tier. he insane now. it was just too much all at once.one of the things that needs to be toned down is how fast his pk fire is

 

[shanus]

SheLL is working on it last time I spoke with him.

 

[kupo15]

I did some testing with globally speeding up all first jumps and there was no difference at all. Why is the dj sped up? Is there something different about the double jump that works or are people under the placebo of it actually being faster?

 

[CT Chia]

working on it? just slow down is pk fire a bit

 

[goodoldganon]

some of the recent buffs to lucas need to be toned down. imo he literally went from however he was before (lowish?) to top tier. he insane now. it was just too much all at once.one of the things that needs to be toned down is how fast his pk fire is

Finally got a taste of what Chibo was saying.

We way overbuffed Lucas. His PK Fire is way to spammable preventing any form of a ground approach. His F-tilt is safe on block and is also way to fast. Same goes for the dash attack. His N-air locks people in shields, still. His U-tilt prevents most aerial approaches since its fast enough to just keep throwing out. That and his PKT2 is amazing at gimping people now a days thanks to hitstun.

It is literally an uphill battle for almost every character in the game because you can't even projectile spam him, he'll just eat it for health. Lucas needed help but playing as and against him tonight I realize we helped him too much. I'm sure he has some poor matchups right now, but I sure wasn't finding them. Either way, most of the matchups are horribly one sided in Lucas's favor. I'd argue to remove everyone of his frame speed changes, except the grab and U-smash.

EDIT: In retrospect asking to take all the buffs away is as bad as how massively we buffed him. The PK fire has to go for sure as does the F-tilt or dash attack. We also need to do something about N-air.

 

[kupo15]

Ive been trying to say this for a while. I think usmash is good and grab (although I think it could be toned down)

 

[Blank Mauser]

So the potential is here now, does anyone else think Lucas may also be deserving of DJC? He certainly would fit the bill, but would he need it now? A lot of people regard Lucas as a pretty solid character after previous changes, but these could always be toned down if DJC was implemented. I think it'd make Lucas pretty interesting.

 

[Shell]

DJC Uair would be hella ****. It wouldn't be of as much use for his Dair or Nair. Fair is already about perfect in height and usage for his SH. Bair could be interesting, though.

I'd say let's test it on any character that might be able to use it, assess the new options relative to the placement of the character, and then decide whether to leave it in for public testing.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I think at most it'd definitely help with Fair and Bair, Dair and Nair we'd have to see. I don't think Lucas would need a tone down to deserve it, since it may not help too much.

Giving more accuracy and pressure at the risk of a limited recovery is a pretty good tradeoff with just about any character. Obviously the next prime candidate for DJC after Ness would probably be Yoshi, but Lucas is someone who doesn't have this precedence so it'd be interesting to see what could be done if we went this route.

 

[Veril]

I fail at reading dates.

 

[Shell]

Veril, those are mostly old posts and old sentiments that you just replied to.

The dash attack was either safe on block, or very close to it. Post-recent-changes it's a very balanced move right now, with a large reward of being a good setup even into kill percents, but requiring you to hit with the hand and having moderate lag when missed.

PK Fire isn't "slowed down" per se, it's just vanilla speed again.

And by f-tilt, GoG actually meant u-tilt.

U-tilt was a little too fast for the size / disjointedness of the move, but this has been addressed.

Strangely enough, Lucas has gone from the bottom, to top, and back to who knows where. I think he's pretty well balanced, but he's got three votes right now as being bottom 10.

=/

 

[Veril]

Whoops. :embarrass

I'm glad DJC didn't get implemented, what a confusing mess that would have been.

Wow, my first serious post... fail.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Well actually DJC is up in the air, and its being tested with Ness right now. Thats why I wanted to get an opinion of how you guys feel about Lucas' tier placement.

I think hes got a few things going for him, but nothing too special yet. DJC in itself is a tradeoff in my opinion though. While he gets to pressure better and more accurate, using it requires him to use his double jump and he risks limited recovery if he gets hit.

 

[leafgreen386]

Well actually DJC is up in the air, and its being tested with Ness right now. Thats why I wanted to get an opinion of how you guys feel about Lucas' tier placement.

I think hes got a few things going for him, but nothing too special yet. DJC in itself is a tradeoff in my opinion though. While he gets to pressure better and more accurate, using it requires him to use his double jump and he risks limited recovery if he gets hit.

Actually, this isn't true. The way DJC was implemented means that you keep your DJ even after using it, since it just plain skips the DJ animation and instead goes into the "soft hit wall" animation. The way we're implementing it, the character sacrifices nothing but gains a valuable tool. So that's something to think about as well.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Hm that certainly does change things. Ideally it'd be nice if we could change that counter when DJC is used...

Well, does anyone have thoughts on its actual applications? I think it'd fit fine with Lucas, and that he may not need any toning down at all to receive it. I'd even argue that Ness is better then Lucas, so Lucas getting DJC along with him to keep the trend isn't so far fetched.