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Lucario's Traps and Brickwalls

NESSBOUNDER

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This is a Lucario-flavored hack of Emblem Lord's rather excellent explanation of traps and brickwalls in Brawl. For information on this, check out the original thread which should explain all you need to know about these very important concepts.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=183816

Now then, on to business. A lot of Lucario players will probably have done plenty of trapping and brickwalling subconsciously, as his gameplay lends itself to such tactics due to his relatively low-lag high-range/priority attacks as well as his projectile game.

First of all, Lucario is quite adept at brickwalling and decent at trapping. Some Lucario players playfully refer to this as "aura fortress". His brickwalling game mostly revolves around his large lingering hitboxes and slow moving projectile.

Aura sphere is critical for many of Lucario's traps and brickwalls.

Even so, I think it'd be more appropriate to start with his traps.

LUCARIO'S TRAPS

1) ftilt/dtilt trap
This one's very simple and effective to perform. Basically, both of these moves have hardly any ending lag and decent range/priority. Lucario's dtilt finishes only slightly slower than Marth's dtilt for comparison reasons, although it lacks the range. Even so, both these tilts are quite effective for this basic trap.

How to perform it: approach the opponent and use the attack. watch for the opponent's reaction. Providing that they aren't attacking you themselves, the opponent will either block the move, roll behind you, jump, or roll away from you.

If they block the move: both these attacks are safe on block, and few characters can punish you for landing these attacks on a shield, especially Ftilt.

If they dodge behind you: simply turn around while doing a jab combo, or use a force palm grab behind you. If they're a character with a short roll, then an uptilt will sometimes work too.

If they dodge away from you: chase and apply pressure, or move to a better position on the map. You could even throw an aura sphere and start a brickwall from this position too.

If they jump over it: lead into a string of aerials and set up for an aerial trap. Lucario is quite good at these, or get ready to shield if they seem like they're going to attack you.

2) Aura sphere trap

I can't decide whether to classify this as a trap or a brickwall since it can be used as both. Aura sphere is a very slow, large projectile. When you throw an aura sphere at an opponent, you set a hitbox between you and them, making it so that they can't continue a frontal approach.

How to perform it: make sure that you have a reasonable amount of space between you and the opponent. Enough room so that if they were to roll around the projectile, they would end up either in front of behind you. When faced with a projectile, the opponent can block it, attack it, roll behind it, jump over it or reflect it. They can't roll away due to the slow moving nature of aura sphere.

if they block it: throw another one.

if they roll past it: you may choose to already have an Fsmash ready if you predict that the opponent will do this. Other than that, you can grab them, use an AAA combo on them, or even use a force palm grab.

if they jump over it: get ready to intercept them in the air, or block and punish any aerials that come your way. Aura sphere is quite safe even if evaded, unless it's at close range. And you shouldn't be trying to use it at super close proximity in the first place.

if they jab it: throw another one. It's a stalemate situation but you can use it to move to a better position or continue the pressure.

if they reflect it: if your opponent is gifted enough to have a reflector, You should still have enough distance between you and them to perform a reverse double team and use it as an option to close in. Otherwise you could just shield it.

3) fsmash trap

Lucario's Fsmash is pretty amazing. It has hardly any ending lag. By the time your opponent sees it coming and rolls/blocks it, you have plenty of time to move again, making it really hard to punish.

How to do it: just fsmash in the direction of your opponent, making sure to space yourself properly, and watch for their reaction.

If they roll behind you: use uptilt. Even if they start the roll at the beginning of your Fsmash animation, not many characters will be able to punish you with anything faster than a 4-frame attack. I tested this using Marth's side dodge and dancing blade, and it was powershielded even though I had Marth dodge as soon as I started the attack.

If they shield: Fsmash again or throw an aura sphere.

If they spot dodge: use Dtilt or go for a force palm grab.

If they short hop: now this is the tricky part of using fsmash. If your opponent jumps over the attack, then you're open for an aerial. However, due to the height of the hitbox, the attack can still catch your opponent when they're in the air at the start of their jump. Given human reaction time, and the fact that a jump starts in 6 frames, your opponent will have had to begin their jump just as you started the Fsmash. Discourage them from jumping by throwing a shorthopped aura sphere first or something.

more coming later.
 

Browny

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lol interesting, shortly after reading that thread i just had to test it on wifi

http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=2a6qk2s&s=4

the result. beware its EXTREMELY spammy/campy, and the marth wasnt a pro by any means (im not either) but i think that shows pretty well how lucario can brickwall with AS and fsmash
 

NESSBOUNDER

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lol interesting, shortly after reading that thread i just had to test it on wifi

http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=2a6qk2s&s=4

the result. beware its EXTREMELY spammy/campy, and the marth wasnt a pro by any means (im not either) but i think that shows pretty well how lucario can brickwall with AS and fsmash
Not bad! There were lots of times when he rolled in front of you and you could have grabbed him or use an AAA combo, but you've got the right idea.

That Marth was using dancing blade a bit too much though. D: Did you know that move is unsafe on block?
 

Timbers

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I'm glad someone made this post, and saved me the trouble of doing it xD. It's really late here right now, so I can't go in depth on what I want to say. I'll put my thought in tomorrow.
 

Mamba

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lol interesting, shortly after reading that thread i just had to test it on wifi

http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=2a6qk2s&s=4

the result. beware its EXTREMELY spammy/campy, and the marth wasnt a pro by any means (im not either) but i think that shows pretty well how lucario can brickwall with AS and fsmash
Definitely a fine example regardless, you were very clearly in control throughout that match and could clearly see much of the tactics described being used.

This is the sort of thing I really need to work on, at this point I'm thinking mostly about how I'm going to get my offense in/approach etc. rather than trying to force my opponent into any decision making.

So many facets of my game to work on. :p
 

Kappie

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This is certainly a very interesting post, I heard of this concept earlier, but didn't understand it. This clears up alot. It will take a while to put into your gameplay effectively I guess, but that's what practice is for.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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Fffff wow Lucario has way too many small and insignificant "traps" and even MORE brickwalling tactics. It's going to be a huge chore to list them all in this format...

I could actually use some help, lol.

*snaps fingers* JEEPY...MILLLLN...

loljk.
 

Kitamerby

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Fffff wow Lucario has way too many small and insignificant "traps" and even MORE brickwalling tactics. It's going to be a huge chore to list them all in this format...

I could actually use some help, lol.

*snaps fingers* JEEPY...MILLLLN...

loljk.
You might as well list his entire moveset. >.>

I swear, every single move Lucario has (even Utilt possibly) can be used for a trap or brick wall.

Well, aside from Force Palm Flame, but that move just sucks. >>


Also, Usmash deserves its own slot as a trap. I don't know where the hell the hitbox is anymore, but nowadays, just hitting it is a mindgame in its own right. >>
 

hough123

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This topic should be pretty helpfull.
Might deserve a sticky eventually.
 

betterthanbonds9

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Bair has a handy brickwall in it (somewhat litterally). The hitbox stays out for quite awhile and if you fastfall with the hitbox out, it takes a well timed fair from marth to get through without taking a hit too. You can literally make an aura wall with it and keep it up pretty well. It basically forces the opponent to the ground and once they are there it's just a matter of aurasphere/fsmash/utilt depending on the distance with utilt being if they are getting too close for comfort. Just make sure they aren't coming from above and you miss, you will be punished by some kind of aerial attack. Of course, because this makes a wall of aura you can get people on the way down and follow it up with an ftlit or dtilt just because they're so quick.

And while im talking about the air game, why not try uair? Like zelda (who has an amazing uair) Lucario can fastfall after his uair is out and according to jeepy's awesome frame data it's out there for a good 7 frames while lucario is just going to the ground safely. So, why is this a trap? It forces the opponent to airdodge or second jump if they still have it, during the time you are fastfalling, you can (if the uair hitbox is well placed) start a usmash while they are coming out of the airdodge, you can miss and still have usmashes amazingly undying hitbox hit them or if you hit them with the flame, they could die or simply repeat the trap. Other options are to uair>utilt or uair>shnair or anything else that comes into your head. Lucario is full of invisible hitboxes and it's our job to abuse that as much as possible.
 

Ark22

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That marth fell for every single trap you put out. I doubt that traps and brickwalls will be that effective in matches, but the video does demonstrate their power fairly well.

Lucario's aerials can definitely be used as brickwalls. Fair leads to Nair which can be cancelled into another attack of your choice. They are all disjointed which limits your opponents options for a counter attack and forces your opponent to find another way to deal with it.

Edit: then again, pretty much everyone already knows this about Luc's aerials.
 

Timbers

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First some things I want to question regarding Luc's dtilt. I've fiddled with it already, and...kind of deemed it useless. I know.. <_<

Ahem. Uh. So yeah it does lack range. That's one negative aspect on it. More to follow. Marth, for example, is able to fully capitalize on his opponent's reactions. Rolls get eaten by dancing blades, spotdodges get eaten by..dtilts...and any sort of aerial attempt is run down by Marth's usually-superior air game.

Lucario's dtilt does lack range and it is slower. He does have lag on his moves, even dtilt. That makes it hard for him to capitalize on an opponent rolling behind him, as none of his moves are phenomenally fast. He can't poke shields and/or spotdodges as effectively as Marth's. He doesn't have the air or ground speed that Marth does to pressure those who roll or jump away, and his own fair does get beat by a decent amount of moves in the event that they try approaching with an aerial.

I personally feel that Luc's traps are heavily based around aurasphere, and a select few of his aerials (dair, bair). The brickwalls are aurasphere, bair, and fsmash. His ground game has never screamed "hey look at me I'm pressure." Again, I'm not attentive enough to write an entire novel on how Godwin aurasphere's potential is, but that's definitely the heart of his traps and brickwalls.
 

Emblem Lord

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Lucario is more of a brickwaller then a trapper honestly.

F-tilt is pretty good as a trap move though, since it hits twice.
 

Ark22

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I agree that his dtilt is pretty useless. Anything it can do, Ftilt or Utilt can do better.
 

betterthanbonds9

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First some things I want to question regarding Luc's dtilt. I've fiddled with it already, and...kind of deemed it useless. I know.. <_<

Ahem. Uh. So yeah it does lack range. That's one negative aspect on it. More to follow. Marth, for example, is able to fully capitalize on his opponent's reactions. Rolls get eaten by dancing blades, spotdodges get eaten by..dtilts...and any sort of aerial attempt is run down by Marth's usually-superior air game.

Lucario's dtilt does lack range and it is slower. He does have lag on his moves, even dtilt. That makes it hard for him to capitalize on an opponent rolling behind him, as none of his moves are phenomenally fast. He can't poke shields and/or spotdodges as effectively as Marth's. He doesn't have the air or ground speed that Marth does to pressure those who roll or jump away, and his own fair does get beat by a decent amount of moves in the event that they try approaching with an aerial.

I personally feel that Luc's traps are heavily based around aurasphere, and a select few of his aerials (dair, bair). The brickwalls are aurasphere, bair, and fsmash. His ground game has never screamed "hey look at me I'm pressure." Again, I'm not attentive enough to write an entire novel on how Godwin aurasphere's potential is, but that's definitely the heart of his traps and brickwalls.
ftilt is pretty fast, and an awesome move all around, fast enough to punish a roller now and then (DB is just a godly move for that, so personally i think that using that as an example is just going to end in it being a moot point) plus the 2 hitboxes can be used defensively much like dair's hitbox, especially when angled upwards. Only times I'll use dtilt are: 1. if I'm on a platform and they're coming from that angle and 2. misclick (mistap?). It's poor range, bad combo potential, and an overall suckiness make it not so good for offense, but i guess every move can be used for some sort of mindgame
 

Jeepy Sol

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Overall, d-tilt is Lucario's fastest tilt (it's hitbox only comes out 2 frames later than f-tilt's), and it's range is not that bad. It outranges u-smash, grab, u-tilt, d-smash, and Jab A. So, comparatively speaking, d-tilt is not a useless move. Still, f-tilt is 10 times better for trapping.

Just playing Devil's Advocate, here.
 

Timbers

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I just rarely ever find myself in a position where I'm too far away to jab, yet they're too close to ftilt (i.e. dtilt range) considering ftilt can also be angled just makes it feel inferior.

Not useless, but it's not..great.

As of now, dtilt doesn't really have the potential that say, MK's, ROBs, or Marth's would. Or even Zelda or something.

Ftilt is a good move. It's safe when spaced, but you can't really use it in conjunction with any other move except itself. That's the only reason I don't personally consider it a move that actually limits an opponents options.
 

Ark22

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Whoa Jeepy, you need to chill. We don't want any dangerous ideas about dtilt being useful. People might actually start using it.
 

Zero_Gamer

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I use it quite a bit because it sets things up so beautifully :)
C-stick to "tilt" setting = (>^.^)> ))))))))O))
Overall, tilts are better than smashes for Lucario. Ftilt is good spacing and damage, Dtilt is good spacing and setup, Uptilt is a very fast move that strikes all around Lucario and can be chained for more attacks.
 

Ark22

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Its funny, I've always wanted to incorporate dtilt into my game, but I've never been able to do it. Its not that its bad, its just that you are right, and ftilt is just too good.
 

Kitamerby

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I use it quite a bit because it sets things up so beautifully :)
C-stick to "tilt" setting = (>^.^)> ))))))))O))
Overall, tilts are better than smashes for Lucario. Ftilt is good spacing and damage, Dtilt is good spacing and setup, Uptilt is a very fast move that strikes all around Lucario and can be chained for more attacks.
Fsmash, Usmash, and Dsmash disagree.
 

Timbers

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No he's right. Fsmash is truly the only decent smash that Luc has.

Dsmash is powerful but leaves you so open to be punished that it's usually not worth it to take the risk. Usmash is cool but, you honestly are going to use it what, 1-2 times a match at the most?
 

NESSBOUNDER

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Timbers: Lucario has less lag on his attacks in general than Marth does, but less startup time/shield pressure.

Lucario's walling and trapping options rely mainly on his lingering hitboxes, which Marth doesn't have.

And yah. Dtilt trap is just an inferior version of Marth's, but there's only a few frame's difference really. The hitbox stays out for Longer, and Lucario also has the ability to crawl.

But I generally prefer Ftilt or Fsmash for trapping.

Lucario can just flow from one wall/trap to the other. It's awesome.

But anyway: I'll update soon with a Utilt trap that I've been testing.

And Dtilt is not useless at all. It's faster than and has just as much range as Ftilt and not as laggy as Utilt.

But seriously, Fsmash and ftilt are the best for trapping, especially with aura sphere support.
 

Timbers

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I'm talking about the scenario of trapping with dtilt, not their entire moveset. However it is true that Marth's moves are quicker than ours, but the ending lag on some of his moves are inferior to Luc's.

There's a lot of things about dtilt that I don't like in this setup, but it's not because of the actual move. It's just hard for him to pressure nearly as well as Marth can with dtilt's setup.

Since when did dtilt have as much range as ftilt?

I agree that lingering hitboxes are what works so well for Lucario, namely aurasphere. Fsmash too, of course. It completely demolishes characters that have low shorthops or can't make a good use of their shorthopped approach. Ftilt I don't feel has as much capability as the other two, but you obviously have your reasons in saying so. I look forward to the utilt description. I have a rough idea on what it's about, but it's certainly a good one against characters that are virtually defenseless when caught.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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Well ftilt has its perks when it comes to trapping for the following reasons:

1. it double-hits. It can't be powershielded and is hard to punish on block.

2. starts and finishes faster than aura sphere, and you can advance with it. It has decent range and if rolled, the opponent ends up behind you for a 3-frame uptilt.

3. it can be angled up and down. Angled ftilt is great for stopping pesky shorthoppers. AS and Fsmash can't do this.

And yeah: when you hit with the FRONT of utilt, you can move and attack before your opponent can jump, so the only things they can do to avoid an aerial is attack or air dodge. Airdodge can be punished, but if you think they'll attack, you can shield and grab them, or do another uptilt.

40/50 for most characters.
 

betterthanbonds9

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well, i dont hate dtilt it's just that when you have the option of starting Nolan Ryan, you realize that it's ****ing Nolan Ryan and you use him.
Nolan Ryan is ftilt

does dtilt have any ability to edgeguard or can it not hit that low?

and since when was this thread about comparing us to marth, we should compare our stuff to pit so that we feel as manly as possible. Or is marth the god of the lucario boards? Curse jeepy's rotation six.
 

Timbers

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Well ftilt has its perks when it comes to trapping for the following reasons:

1. it double-hits. It can't be powershielded and is hard to punish on block.

2. starts and finishes faster than aura sphere, and you can advance with it. It has decent range and if rolled, the opponent ends up behind you for a 3-frame uptilt.

3. it can be angled up and down. Angled ftilt is great for stopping pesky shorthoppers. AS and Fsmash can't do this.

And yeah: when you hit with the FRONT of utilt, you can move and attack before your opponent can jump, so the only things they can do to avoid an aerial is attack or air dodge. Airdodge can be punished, but if you think they'll attack, you can shield and grab them, or do another uptilt.

40/50 for most characters.
I see where you're coming with it, I just wish you could use ftilt in succession with his other moves, making a very nice brickwall. Emblem Lord's example on Marth is what I'm trying to say. Fair/jab/ftilt/dtilt, all give Marth a very effective wall when used simutaneously. Luc's ftilt just doesn't have that potential, but it's still good. As a brickwall though, I'm not so sure. Ftilt can combo into itself, that's really all there is. At ftilt's pinnacle range, there is nothing you can do to that opponent except ftilt.

It's a good move, I love it, but I'm a bit hesitant to consider it an ideal use for brickwalling a character. I think I'm also playing too many characters with obscenely dominant aerials. GaW bair, TL nair/bair, etc. I guess what you're saying would be much more effective on characters who do lack that sort of range and quickness in their aerials.
well, i dont hate dtilt it's just that when you have the option of starting Nolan Ryan, you realize that it's ****ing Nolan Ryan and you use him.
Nolan Ryan is ftilt

does dtilt have any ability to edgeguard or can it not hit that low?

and since when was this thread about comparing us to marth, we should compare our stuff to pit so that we feel as manly as possible. Or is marth the god of the lucario boards? Curse jeepy's rotation six.
Marth's being compared probably due to the initial brickwall/trap thread created by Emblem Lord. His examples revolved mainly around Marth, and this topic as well was hinted towards Marth's capabilities and relation to Lucario.
 

betterthanbonds9

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Marth's being compared probably due to the initial brickwall/trap thread created by Emblem Lord. His examples revolved mainly around Marth, and this topic as well was hinted towards Marth's capabilities and relation to Lucario.
i understand why marth keeps coming up. I read EL's thread a bit ago, very well written, conceived, and organized good read. It's just that as long as we compare lucario to marth (60:40 him) we're simply not going to win and it makes the thread go into a constant and somewhat unnecesary argument of whether ftilt/dtilt beat out marth in both tactics and attacking. And judging by the lack of disagreement in this thread, I'd say we agree, marth's are better.

It's far more useful to discuss other effective ways of bricking and trapping characters and critiquing (sp?) those mentioned than to compare ourselves to a character and complain that he does it better and just giving up on the idea of making Lucario work at a higher level.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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i understand why marth keeps coming up. I read EL's thread a bit ago, very well written, conceived, and organized good read. It's just that as long as we compare lucario to marth (60:40 him) we're simply not going to win and it makes the thread go into a constant and somewhat unnecesary argument of whether ftilt/dtilt beat out marth in both tactics and attacking. And judging by the lack of disagreement in this thread, I'd say we agree, marth's are better.

It's far more useful to discuss other effective ways of bricking and trapping characters and critiquing (sp?) those mentioned than to compare ourselves to a character and complain that he does it better and just giving up on the idea of making Lucario work at a higher level.
I compare Lucario to Marth because when it comes to spacing and pressuring, they share similar traits.

And I don't agree that Marth's are better. Marth sorely lacks lingering hitboxes and a projectile for a start. Marth's are different and his primary traps are more effective, but Lucario can move from trap to trap and he has more of them as well as superior brickwalling options.

And Timbers: have you tried using Aurasphere, Fsmash, Ftilt and Utilt in quick succession? More often than not, this combination of moves will have your opponent rolling all over the place and into your lingering hitboxes. Lucario's moves can support him just as well as Marth's can. Marth can't even use Ftilt because it's horribly unsafe on block.

And Ftilt can often combo into a force palm grab just so you know. Or a running attack. Both these are pretty good.

Marth may be able to swing his sword around to protect himself, but the key problem with Marth's brickwalling game is that each of his hitboxes only stay out for a very short amount of time. Lucario's hitboxes linger, actually diminishing the amount of lag he has in between attacks. Blow for blow, Lucario's attacks are actually much safer on block and when used in combination, are a lot harder to get through.

Lucario's Ftilt is much better than you're giving it credit for. You used Mr. Game and Watch as an example right? Lucario's Ftilt can trade hits with his fishbowl if you angle it upwards slightly. This move has hardly any ending lag, making it very hard to punish, ESPECIALLY since it double-hits and pushes back quite far, which is excellent on block and prevents powershielding.

And also, the hitbox is huge.

Lucario also has an excellent jab to work with. Marth uses his dancing blade in place of a jab, but said attack is unsafe on block, whereas Lucario has plenty of grab mixups that he can do from a jab cancel.
 

Browny

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does lucario even have any unsafe moves on block... provided you dont use usmash/dsmash for no reason, you rarely have to put tourself in a risky position.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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does lucario even have any unsafe moves on block... provided you dont use usmash/dsmash for no reason, you rarely have to put tourself in a risky position.
Up smash, Up tilt (blocked from behind), landing Uair, landing Bair, landing Fair, running attack, forcepalm flame, point blank aura sphere.

These are the only unsafe on block attacks that he has.
 

Emblem Lord

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Marth's D-tilt trap >>>>>>>> all Lucario's traps and brickwalls.

A hard dose of reality before NESSBOUNDER goes off into his land of happiness where Lucario is better then Marth.

Seriously every post you make about Lucario and Marth reeks of your opinion that Lucario is superior.

It's full of much lulz.

I like Timbers. He is logical.

Logic = win.
 

Zero_Gamer

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NESSBOUNDER is just arguing about Lucario's moves. Logic favorable to Lucario is no different from logic favorable to Marth.
As for the Dtilt, it is a very good move for Marth, but it can still be punished by a projectile. The contrast between Marth's Dtilt and Lucario's other tilts is the cooldown lag. Marth's Dtilt has a little bit of cooldown lag, despite it's good IASA frames so he may be unable to defend himself against a projectile when he whiffs.
 

Browny

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Seriously every post you make about Lucario and Marth reeks of your opinion that Lucario is superior.

It's full of much lulz.
Same applies to you? Its not exactly uncommon that people will think their main is better than other characters, im sure marth mainers are no different. Also i fail to see how marths dtilt is >>>>> anything lucario can do (AS, fsmash) to stop an approaching snake, for example.
 
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