Lucario vs. Peach (17) Export

[phi1ny3]

Peach

​

Matchup:

60:40

General info:

Ok, since I am free now, I will write up the matchup. For this one though, we might have to test out a few things.

Peach matchup:

Well, shes cute? but looks are always deceiving. Anyway, Peach's Fair is a pretty good attack in this matchup, esp. with good range to actually rush her down. Her main attack will he Dair, and turnips. The turnips are mainly just for an obstacle, so just avoid them. While they don't hurt as much, it leads to setups, mainly if she glide tosses and hits you with it, while that can lead to a grab if it connects. From 0 she has a few combos that work on a few characters that will take them to about 35-45%. Combos are:

Dair>Falling Nair>Rising Uair
Dair>Falling Nair> Utilt
Dair>Uair

Each combo varries on the character, but on most characters Dair to Nair will be the main set 0 to w/e combo.

Peach from melee got nurfed pretty hard, the one noticeable is her kill power, she not lacks a lot of it, and all of her kill moves need to be sweet-spotted in order to kill. Her kill moves are Fair, Nair, Bair, Usmash, Utilt, and Fsmash. I will go over how to DI each attack, and give some more info on them right... Now:

Fair: This is her most used attack from her killing set. You need to DI this move into the corner of the screen in order to live at max %. She will stale this move throughout the matchup, so its not as scary as it thinks. Just remember to DI it.

Bair: This move is actually pretty scary. She doesn't use this as much for approaches, or even followups, so this move will be relatively fresh if you get hit by it. The DI is the same as Fair. DI into the corner of the screen for max %.

Usmash: This is her strongest killing move, and it will kill early. The bad part about this move (But good for us) is that it is a hard move to land, and it is kind of perdictable. Usmash has 3 different hit boxes. She has a side hit box that doesn't kill at all, and is weak. her next hit hit box are in the corners of her hand while she is spinning, also a weak spot. Her last hit box is around her head, which will kill you. Basiclly she really needs to touch you in order to kill u with this move. But if she does touch you, and you are over 100-ish% don't expect to live. If you have god-DI however, you can survive by DI to the far right or far left as much as possible.

Utilt: Pretty much the same as Usmash, except with less killing power and easier to land. DI is the same also. Far left and far right as much as possible.

Fsmash: This move requires a fast eye to DI, as each of the different items carry a different trajectory of which u get hit.

Frying pan: Hits you up

(I might have these last 2 backwards, so someone test this)
tennis racket: Hits Straight
Golf Club: Hits diagonal

Out of these 3, the tennis racket and the frying pan you will want to aim to the corner of the screen. The Golf Club however (Or which ever sends u diagonal), you will want to aim for the roof, or influence its trajectory and continue to aim for the corner, since its the farthest point from dying.

Peach's edge hogging game is not bad, and she can chase you out of she wants to. Most Peach's prefer to stay near the ledge and guard it with turnips, while also using her supreme ability to refresh the ledge with Invincibility frames. (If you have not seen it, go into training and fall from the ledge, then jump back to the ledge. You will be surprised)

Helpful tips: Normally I charge AS in matches, but for this match I prefer just to BAS her, as it shuts down her floating game kind of bad. For this match I would actually keep a mid range distance, not to far so she can't pressure you with her turnips, but not to close so she can combo the piss out of you either. Just far enough so she can't float in, and dodge the BAS and punish you for it. But, If you want to charge an AS, feel free to do so. After all, if u space right and she is floating, she has to dodge and that's never a bad thing.

If peach is going towards you, you can space Bair and be safe. Fairing her constantly is not a good idea, as well as following up anything you might think is not legit. Shes pretty light, so she bounces out easily from potential combos.

Peach is light, and she does die pretty easily from out hits. If you think you can land an Uair, do so. It kills her pretty early, even if we are at low %.

Peach is fast, if you need to punish, always consider Dair as your first option. It doesn't take much to kill her, so just rack up damage every which way you can.

As for a number I am not to sure. I want to say 60:40 in Lucario's favor,but some might consider it 55:45. Hell, It can even be a 50:50 matchup, but of course that will be up to you, right?

Peach's ability to rack up damage quickly but having trouble landing a KO move really hurts her in this match up.

Lucario vs. Peach:

First off, Peaches are taught that Lucarios will roll a LOT. Though this is dated information, as we all know that rolling should be used sparingly. This will make them prepare to punish your roll, (commonly with a Usmash), which you can punish easily by just not rolling. Peaches will attempt to kill you early, as to avoid our aura. The only problem being that Peach can't kill well. They're best kill moves are Usmash and Fair, but Dair outdoes Usmash, so you only need to worry about Fair killing you. This is where our AS comes into play. Peaches HATE a campy Lucario. This shifts the match up slightly to out favor.
As for stages:

What to avoid:

Oh I feel so special now <3

Unfortunetly I don't really play any Lucario's so I know very little about this match up. If you're lacking info I would definitly give Praxis a shout since he fights Lucario all the time. I'll try give some generic useful info

Peach will be mainly using Fair Dair and Turnips. DI out of Dair (DI up) and if you do get hit with Fair, DI up (diagonally up will probably let you live longer). Watch out for Glide Tossing and the very currently uncommon Turnip slide pull and be aware of defensive Turnip use such as OoS Turnips

If Peach has spaced her Floating Dairs correctly then F Smash won't hit her. Aura sphere's will stop Floating approaches although Peach shouldn't really be approaching with her Float anyway. Her airdodge is the worst in the game so take advantage of that. I don't know how Aura works for Lucario but I can tell you that Peach can cancel out weak Aura Spheres (e.g. Lucario at 0%) with her Nair but she can't against stronger ones (e.g. Lucario at 999%). Again, I don't know the limit but as Lucario's Aura gets stronger, so does the force of the Nair Peach is using. So a strong Nair will stop Lucario's fully charged Aura Sphere when he's at 100% but a weak Nair won't

She's got two other options. Obviously airdodge but she's also got Toad if she isn't willing to take that risk. Speaking of Toad, watch out she doesn't use it to stop any obvious and predictable attack patterns. If she gets predictable with Toad then it's your chance for some serious damage or a free grab

Peach's Fair just outranges Lucario's but his outspeeds hers. I think her Bair and his Fair have similar range. Her Fair and his Bair have similar range aswell

Another factor in this match up is that Peach's killing power isn't very good, especially if she's using her Fair for damage racking or if the other player knows how to DI and momentum cancel well. I know Lucario gets stronger as he takes more damage but I don't know how much that would affect this match up. Ask an expert of something

Sorry, like I said I don't much about Lucario. Just watch out for Fair, Dair, Turnips, don't make obvious aerial approaches or her Up/F Tilt will get you...and that's all I can think of right now

Lucario killing with anything not named Aurasphere, fsmash, dair, or uair...is pretty rare.

Peach's fair is powerful but, you'll end up staling it a lot as it's the only move Peach really has that is safe in range and on block. It does outrange a lot of Luc's moveset, barring aurasphere (obviously), fsmash, and bair. The last two are somewhat irrelevant as fsmash can be floated over easily and bair isn't really a good move to combat against other characters..it's more of an airdodge trap, hitting with the latter hit.

what sucks for Peach is she really can't save the fair for the kill in this matchup.

How to win:

Lucci has this thing called a bair, I hear. It's pretty cool. You should check it out.

Quoted because it really does help, A LOT.

Either 60:40 or 55:45. I lean towards 55:45 but I'm probably clouded as I know this matchup re-e-eaaallly well.

Biggest problem is if your moves get stale. Best aspect is that she's got a really good gimp game, especially against Lucario.

Fsmash is less effective than usual. You can just space and float over it to a fair or dair- personally, I like to just run into it with a powershield and then dash grab OOS (Lucario's always look shocked when I do this xD ). Ftilt shuts down any floated approaches and utilt punishes consecutive dairs on shield, so Peach shouldn't be forcing approaches with dairs. Lucario cannot punish a properly spaced fair on shield to jab, but he CAN ftilt her as she comes in for the fair.

Basically, Lucario should focus on camping the Peach this whole match. This will force Peach to stale her fair in desperation to land hits. But if the Peach approaches slowly and powershields everything, she has her own tools to punish everything. I find jab to be very, very effective. And Peach can nair in between consecutive fair hits.

From the characters' aspects, this matchup is really even. Until you factor the aura. Fact is that Peach has a hard time killing. Good DI and reading will let Lucario live to 150-180% every stick, which makes him really powerful, and overall, swings this into his favor.


And hello again, phi1ny3. Don't make me three stock you again. <3<3

Helpful tips:

As a Peach main, I would say that if the Lucario player knows how Peach works, then I agree on 55:45 Lucario's favour. For a start, Aura Spheres really muck up our approach and force us to float higher, and that means that our floated Dairs won't reach you, making campy Lucarios much harder to beat. You lot probably know not to roll too much, and against Peach that's especially important, since if she predicts where you go, she'll hit you with USmash, which is pretty much the one move Peach has that kills reliably below 100%. However, apart from the occasional USmash, Peach really can't kill very well. Once you get to about 120% or so, then Lucario can expect a Fair, which the Peach player will likely keep fresh, because they want to try and kill Lucario early so that his aura advantage doesn't last too long. However, be aware that around 140% or so, she may mix in Nair and Bair to throw you off guard. Still, Lucario can survive agaisnt her fairly long, which is always a good thing for him. However, once she kills Lucario once, she can get some momentum going and make it much easier for herself. In other words, getting the first kill is tough, but if she can get that first kill, it becomes easier for her.

Also, it's worth noting that Lucario's Dair will outdo our USmash, but NOT our UTilt, but since UTilt doesn't really kill uintil around 150%, in a sense that's almost better for you in a way. And some of Peach's attacks are very fast (e.g. Nair and neutral A both come out on frame 2), which can make it easier for her to disrupt your smash attacks, though she can't really punish them if they whiff or hit her shield. So yeah, all in all, both sides have advantages over each other, but Lucario's aura mixed with Peach's lack of kill power means that it's slightly in your favour, hence 55:45 for Lucario.

Peaches airdodge is notorious for having only 16 invulnerable frames (IIRC) and 1-4, 19-49 are vulnerable. if thats not it, either way its extremely low. Omfg i was right lol!

A full charge aura sphere at any moderate or higher % should be unavoidable. when i play against other characters i often hit them out of airdodge vulnerability frames with it. Peach should be twice as easy to do it to, given the massive vulnerable lag period

---

oh **** lol i forgot i posted here only a few mins ago >_<

As a Peach main, I can confirm that, unfortunately, this is all correct.

Actually, most of Lucario's moves outrange ours. The range on our Fair isn't that great.

Nair only kills at like 150% (even higher with good DI). Fair only kills at 120% (again, higher with good DI), USmash has to be sweetspotted and her FSmash is unpredictable.

Lucario can kill with all of his smashes, Dair and Bair. And a fully charged Aura Sphere too.

That's true. Extra weight is a double-edged sword, but overall I would say that the extra survivability he gets makes up for it.

You do realise that the chances of getting those other three items from turnips are like 1 in 300, right?

Lucario can't really combo Peach that well. He can sort of do it, but the combos he has do minimal damage overall.

He means that Peach can rack up damage well but doesn't kill so well.

what sucks for Peach is she really can't save the fair for the kill in this matchup.

Also, on the peach matchup (Praxis, this is a bat signal for you) I want to rematch you, 3-stock @ Jan. = no fair! T.T

Bair, AS, jab, and utilt (more or less) are the moves for this matchup imo. Bair works very similar to Peaches, but essentially yours if used correctly is safer with a longer range and lingering hitbox (and maybe speed, I'd have to check), AS combats with turnips in camping prowess, and can be used as a crude control device if the peach happens to show a weak pattern, jab is naturally pretty good, decent speed, can fan turnips, and has a pretty large range for a jab (I've muddled through with it, and it's pretty deceptive), and utilt is gonna be a good staple oos/anti air response. Uair is good if you can land it for a kill, but don't rely on it because of her dair's ability is stronger overall than uair. This is a pretty even matchup, and I think that the previous notion of 50:50 is not as exact as I think it could be.
Also, fair gets range mainly due to the float momentum, actual range is meh.
I'm going to say 55:45, possibly 50:50.

Stages:

(From Peach's stage thread.)
Lucario
Counterpick: Green Greens, Rainbow Cruise
Ban: Luigi's Mansion, Frigate Orpheon, Pictochat, Yoshi's Island, Final Destination

Actually, iirc, Rainbow Cruise is actually WORST for Peach because of how the stage forces her to use her recovery more often (due to her horrible second jump's vertical height). Sounds dumb, but it makes sense if you play it right.

I approve of 60-40 or possibly 65-45.

Gimps CAN happen though. It's important to watch out for the turnips. Don't use your second jump in range of a turnip, because if it gets you, you could be in trouble. When recovering, use the 2nd jump either very early or very close to the edge.

Fair will eat turnips on stage, so that's good. Fair is pretty **** against Peach in general, since she's generally hanging out at just the right height for some fair combos.

I think I would advise Frigate Orpheon as a counterpick. It doesn't help Peach's already mediocre recovery, and it improves our own. If not that, then Final Destination would probably be a good spot. Lucario can make better use of it's length and flatness.

And Bear I would attempt to discourage you from saying "If _____ happens, ur doin it wrong", because of the vast potential of minddgames/variety/whatever they call it nowadays and also simple thoughtless mistakes made by either player. In smash, anything can happen.

Disclaimer: This thread is made for the sole purpose of keeping matchup discussing clean and organized. If people wish to discuss a past matchup, they may do so in this thread without cluttering the current discussion.

 

[phi1ny3]

Lots of info, except on stage discussion, this is more like it .

 

[RT]

I would just like to add that Peach really doesn't have safe options from the edge. If you space yourself so that a fsmash hits over the edge, there's pretty much nothing safe she can do. You don't have to actually fsmash, but putting yourself in the position really limits how she can get back up.

 

[ckm]

praxis ***** me at go2.5

he knows the matchup well. ill get him next time though. think i coulda used my tilts more effectively, and maybe played a lil more campy.

my biggest frustration is that peach actually wins in the air (far/dair) and if we approach from the air, our dair actually loses to his uptilt/upsmash. Peach can edgeguard us pretty easily too.

Aura definitely helps. shing your AS will make him less likely to approach via float, which can be helpful. I think nair OoS might be better than usual in this matchup.

 

[phi1ny3]

Gotta save that 2nd jump because those turnips can gimp.
Utilt imo was the biggest move I used last time I was against Praxis besides jab and ftilt, so yeah, tilt power is essential.
BAS does really, really well in this MU, something I didn't take advantage enough of last time I played Praxis.

 

[Praxis]

But it's still not gonna help you

Add Stauffy to my list of Lucario victims too. *evil laughter*

 

[phi1ny3]

Har har, but I've been having a sparring buddy.
Who would've known Bowser could look so good in a pink dress + crown...
O NOES I SAID TOO MUCH, Praxis better not know.

 

[Aurasmash14]

Har har, but I've been having a sparring buddy.
Who would've known Bowser could look so good in a pink dress + crown...
O NOES I SAID TOO MUCH, Praxis better not know.

I Lol'd my head off XD

Praxis is a guy???

 

[RT]

Praxis, come back to Houston for another Hobo. We didn't get enough friendlies. I still remember the ending to our first match. Too good.

 

[ckm]

yeah, well the first match i got beat up pretty bad, second match was last stock, very high percent... which means i'm learning.

I'd also like to point out that I chose not to use MK because I want to learn to play peach with Lucario and become less reliant on MK for the matchup.

Like i said, no johns but ill get you next time.

 

[D. Disciple]

But it's still not gonna help you

Add Stauffy to my list of Lucario victims too. *evil laughter*

We never got to finish our match at Genesis

 

[UTDZac]

I Lol'd my head off XD

Praxis is a guy???

Lol @ people who don't know this.

Praxis is one of the coolest guys I know. No seriously, he gave me a cookie at Genesis!

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, the "Praxis is a girl" thing was a joke.
He's pretty chill, for being a non-lucario.

 

[Praxis]

Why are you guys lying to him?? lolol

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Praxis is pretty hawt. Just sayin.

 

[Aurasmash14]

Lol @ people who don't know this.

Praxis is one of the coolest guys I know. No seriously, he gave me a cookie at Genesis!

Lol i dont live in America. sorry....

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm still questioning this being a 60:40 Lucario, at worst for Peach it feels like a 55:45.

She doesn't get really frustrated by Lucario's range or Aura like other characters do; Mario, Ness, Ike, etc.

 

[xxpatgxx]

Peachkid is a really good Peach(obviously) user. Although I've never lost to him in a tournament set, I'll have even more tricks up my sleeve, to use against him.

 

[iRJi]

I'm still questioning this being a 60:40 Lucario, at worst for Peach it feels like a 55:45.

She doesn't get really frustrated by Lucario's range or Aura like other characters do; Mario, Ness, Ike, etc.

I think the listing off of low tiers being examples aren't that good of a use. For one Mario could give a **** about Lucarios range on most occasions and Ike for a fact doesn't get bothered by it as much as other characters do lolol.

 

[Zucco]

this matchup feels more like 55-45 Lucario to me now, though I'm pretty inexperienced with the entire matchup

 

[Aurasmash14]

I never really understood how we have the advantage in this MU. but then again i just plain suck against peach players XD

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Peach doesn't kill us until high unless we do something dumb and get gimped or sweetspotted by her USmash.

Oh and let's not forget about Aura Sphere.

Data found by John12346 (assume fully charged fresh Aura Sphere)
46% beats Peach's =) Turnip.
46% beats Peach's -.- Turnip.
46% beats Peach's ^o^ Turnip.
46% beats Peach's O.O Turnip.
89% beats Peach's >.o Turnip.
Can't beat Peach's stitchface Turnip.

Most of those turnips are beat by 16% Aura Spheres (>.o is beat by a 20% one). At higher percents even partial charges will be able to beat most of Peach's turnips. Even if she pulls out Toad that could give you more than enough time to throw at least a BAS at her.

In short if you start getting campy to her when you are around 50%-60% she will have trouble getting around AS. Let's not forget about her horrible air dodge is.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Funny how in Melee her airdodge was amazing yet it brawl it sucks balls.

I think the listing off of low tiers being examples aren't that good of a use. For one Mario could give a **** about Lucarios range on most occasions and Ike for a fact doesn't get bothered by it as much as other characters do lolol.

Mostly I'm trying to state that Peach really isn't shut down or is noticeable that Lucario has a solid advantage on her. Other lower tiered characters it's apparent Lucario has a solid advantage.

Peach seems to lack this, she can work around Lucario Camping.

The main problem I see her having is kill power which is why I think she might have a slight disadvantage.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Probably gonna make Peach mains hate me, but...

Yep, pretty much a c/p from my post on AiB, but still, we should do better than 60:40.

I've been thinking about this extensively recently and the more I think about it the more we should mathematically beat a lot of what she does easily and we should just destroy her.

1. Let's take a look at some of our old data:

46%(16) beats Peach's =) Turnip.
46%(16) beats Peach's -.- Turnip.
46%(16) beats Peach's ^o^ Turnip.
46%(16) beats Peach's O.O Turnip.
89%(20) beats Peach's >.o Turnip.

Note: Don't bother battling stichface, it outprioritizes almost everything Lucario has.

Peach:
bair, weak hit:49(16)
nair, weak hit:91(20)
ftilt:91(20)
nair, strong hit:117(22)
bair, strong hit:129(23)
fair:142(24)

I've said before we beat most of what she throws at us if we have a fully charged Aura Sphere charged up starting at around ~50-60% onward.

2. Glidetoss:
a. If she's doing a forward glidetoss and does anything other than an attempted grab out of it you should be able to shield and grab her.
b. Surely we deal with more Diddys, so we can just grab the thrown items in midair while airdodging or an FAir without too much hassle, right? Grabbing stuff via dash attack is nice too.
c. Practice glidetossing: If you do manage to catch something and have a fairly large Aura Sphere at hand say goodbye to a lot of her shield or you will get some nice damage on her (watch out for Toad). The best way to practice might be to go into training mode, generate two bananas (this helps train you against Diddy too) and practice glidetosses.
d. If you do have ninja reflexes you might want to occasionally try a reverse Double Team if she forward glidetosses.

3. Approach:
a. Peach is forced to approach you in most situations, use this to your advantage. You can outcamp her.
b. On many stages she should rarely be able to effectively gimp you. You can cling on FD/BF/YI and her second jump isn't great. Don't forget how our DAir can help air stall a bit to help us recover after her float wears off.
c. If she is offstage fire Aura Spheres at her, her crappy air dodge will benefit us greatly here.
d. 95% of the time you shouldn't chase her offstage. Its best for you to just throw Aura Spheres at her.

4. Aura Sphere is my BFF:
a. Know when you win the spam battle. Fully charge Aura Spheres when you're above 60% considering decay should beat most of what she throws at you. When you're above 150% or 160% you pretty much beat everything, so fire away!
b. "When in doubt aim for the head." Consider the trajectory of the stuff she throws. You might be able to hit her in the head even while she throws something.
c. Remember that slight charges can have a big impact.
d. If she uses Toad to protect herself just throw a BAS at her, it should hit.

5. Responding to Peach's killing moves:
a. Her strongest killing move besides a lucky pull is... USmash, which has a very precise sweetspot in the middle. Don't fastfall without attacking or air dodging if you're close to her. Otherwise she could try something like a glidetoss to a USmash.
b. We all know she loves to try to kill with FAir, right? Remember that advanced tech that I talked about awhile back? Learn it, use it, and make her think twice about using her best kill move.
c. Her fresh Fair shouldn't kill you until roughly 140% or higher (with proper DI/SDI) if you hang out in the middle of most stages.
d. Her Golf Club FSmash has a wtf hitbox that hits behind her. Be careful if you like to roll.

5. Tips:
a. Her Dair om noms shields, but if she spaces wrongly you should be able to hit her with a Fair or NAir OoS.
b. If you get caught in her DAir, DI and SDI Up and hit her with a UAir. I mean we all do this vs. MK's Tornado, right?
c. DI/SDIing up when she DSmashes is a given, right?
d. She has a lot of up close options, but you can just camp and she'll have trouble avoiding all of it.
e. Staying underneath her is asking for trouble, so distance yourself accordingly. You might trade hits if you use Utilt and she is floating around. Not wise since she will likely do more.

So yeah, Lucario can shut down just about anything she does and this is one of the characters Lucario can live forever against. I feel this should be at least 65:35 us.

 

[solecalibur]

-Peach's will normally wait for a move then punish instead of just going in and throwing out random -Dairs (if so PS then Utilt works nicely)

-When there umbrella is backwards (rarely but look out for it) when recovering be sure to attempt to make your move when trying to gimp her

-60:40 imo as they aura makes this MU much more difficult for peach

Don't have much information in this MU with lucario but I know for sure Peach's love BF and they love punishing that fsmash

 

[phi1ny3]

Yet another MU where FH fair hasn't failed me.

I was skeptic, as fair is normally horrible against peach.

Then I figured out why this mere change in height is soooooo good.