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Lucario Stage Discussion: Reviewing information

iRJi

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
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Lylat is MK's worse neutral, believe it or not. (Next to FD)
I am being vague on purpose. I am lazy now like most of you =]. I am just here for guidance, and putting out little information.

I was looking for the post by Pierce explaining why Smashvile was a very bad choice, but I couldn't find it again. Oh wellz.
 

hough123

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
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I don't see why you would be vague when you know you are, and could share more info =\
It hardly matters, anyway. This thread serves more as a guideline for people's own discovery, much like the MU thread. In both, more info allows for quicker accustoming to stages (and match-ups) before you are inevitably forced to learn on your own.

Oh, and this thread will have one week discussions before the new discussion is opened and the previous one pends. The exception would be when there is not enough info, or if discussion is ongoing.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Anyone who says MK doesn't have a bad stage is silly.

Otherwise why would stages like FD be consistently banned by MK mains?

FD is a bad stage for MK. The open space makes it so much easier to face him. Dunno about the rest, I usually jump on FD for MK, if not I try PS1 or Lylat.
 

iRJi

Smash Champion
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Messages
2,423
Anyone who says MK doesn't have a bad stage is silly.

Otherwise why would stages like FD be consistently banned by MK mains?

FD is a bad stage for MK. The open space makes it so much easier to face him. Dunno about the rest, I usually jump on FD for MK, if not I try PS1 or Lylat.
Just because it makes it a bit easier, does not mean it is a bad stage for him. FD actually isn't bad for him at all, it just helps you more then normal lol.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Just because it makes it a bit easier, does not mean it is a bad stage for him. FD actually isn't bad for him at all, it just helps you more then normal lol.
The thing is, I hear this for a lot of characters against MK.

The fact so many do better here than he does here proves the point it's a bad stage for him.
 

hough123

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
627
I just went over the info we have so far. Here are my notes:
Battlefield-Strike|Platforms help his aerials|
Final Destination-Good|Best Lucario stage vs MK|Likely striked by MK|
?Smashville-Strike|Good MK stage|MK makes good use of platform, becomes unusable|
?Yoshi's Island-Bad|Best nuetral|Not enough room to charge AS|Platforms help him more than us|


Castle Siege-Ok|1 has little room|2 can be risky|3 is in our favor|3's stage tilting can eat AS|
Halberd-Bad|
Lylat Cruise-Ok|Tilting may eat AS|
Pokémon Stadium 1-Good|Mixups possible|Size helps|MK can stall|


Brinstar-Bad|Nado traps|Easy kills|Tight blast zones|
Delfino-Bad|Tight blast zones on transformations|
?Frigate Orpheon-Bad|
Jungle Japes-Good|LIve long|Room to run|Not much abusable|
Pictochat-Good|
Pirate Ship
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise-Ban|


Distant Planet
Green Greens
Luigi's Mansion-Even when known|
Port Town Aero Dive
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)
Norfair
As you can see, I need confirmation on the viability of frigate, yoshi's, and definitely SV O.O
So far, FD, PS1, and Japes seem like good choices. Pictochat, Lylat, and Castle Siege seem to be OK choices, but some don't have enough info for me to definitively say.
 

culexus・wau

Purchased premium only to change name ><
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As soon as I get my wii fixed/this go**** USB loader working.


I cannot theorycraft without a physical source!

But a few things I know for sure.

- You have plenty of space to Roll away and charge aurasphere.

- Some of the Transformations are double edge'd swords

- CONTROL THE LEFT SIDE/MIDDLE.

- There boundaries are short, so be wary of SHUTTLE LOOP,
however the area below is pretty small so recovering from below aint such a bad idea.
 

hough123

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
627
I still need info on picto and halberd. I also need what to do if you're ever on on of the bad stages, or why it screws us over.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
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Halberd is meh, lets him use SL as a pretty reliable killer plus all the dumb uair sharking (both to get death and underneath the stage itself.

Picto's pretty good.

I actually really like the idea of SV overall, that plat actually can give use a little edge in defense if used correctly and add a couple of recovery options. I'd prefer FD, but in my region sometimes we can only pick 3 neutrals, so I've come to like the stage and get more familiar.
 

culexus・wau

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1st a little overview about Picto:

Can Kill You - 3
Spikes (ground)
Piranha plant
Minecart

Can Hurt You - 3
Spikes (sides)
Rockets
Fireballs

Contain Wall(s) -5
Box/Bricks
Singing guy
Whale
Boat
Large slanted line with eyes

Other - 16
Clock
Side flags
Swinging platform
Five slanted lines
Farm with platform on the edges
Middle platform thing with flag
Platform with ladders
Fourteen small platforms
Side springs
Blowing face
Pine trees
House
Platform ferris wheel
Two slanted platforms/Boobs/Bra/Slanted Eyes
Umbrella stand
Tree

Theres a 6/27 chance of a Hazard that can damage you

a 3/27 chance that a Hazard may kill you

and a 5/27 chance that a wall will appear for you to get dtilt *****/a free aurasphere charge.

1st Change is in 2 seconds or so in the match.

The stage won't repeat another drawing until all 27 have passed, each drawing appearing every 13.333 seconds and lasting 13.333 seconds.

in an 8 minute match there are 24 drawings [tested this myself] So a drawing will NEVER repeat.

the stage will NOT end on a transformation. ... but if you have the lead you can just roll away those last seconds anyway lolzzzzzz

Individual Information regarding drawings in next post.
 

culexus・wau

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Spikes (ground)

Double Edged Sword here. if you grab MK you get a free throw into the spikes on him.

He can obviously Dtilt you for some damage and then dsmash when the drawing goes away.

Your Fsmash goes through the stage walls but so does his tilts/smashes.

Ussually if you don't end up next to the eachother the MK won't aggress you.

In that case, free Aurasphere charge.

if MK Grounded SLs here he risks getting hit by the spike.(theres an area where he can do it and be safe with the B/Jump Cancel but its small)


Piranha plant

Deals 10 Damage and has good KB

If he tries to uthrow you under the plant he gets hit.

if DI Fthrow AWAY can avoid the piranha from under it.

if you grab MK under you get a pretty inescapable uthrow/dthrow.

if you grab him from the sides he has to DI fthrow straight forward not to get hit by the plant.

if Meta grounded SLs under the piranha he gets hit by the plant.


Minecart


Does 10 damage on hit with good KB

Pretty suuuuuuuure he gets hit if he tries to uthrow you and you hit the cart.

You can get a pretty good uthrow set-up into the cart too.

If you're silly you can stand on the card and watch MK get hit when he tries to SL you lol.

Obvious can interfere with his Grounded SL


Spikes (sides)


Does 30% on hit

VERY GOOD FOR YOU

Lets you live longer ussually which is very good.

But you Take damage, which is both good and bad, depending on the situation.
[You're luc mains you should know this!]

MK can't really force you into this with throws besides dthrow [and SLing/Nairing you if you DI up] where you can with fthrow/backthrow [which throw in the PERFECT angles.

This Can save you from a gimp sometimes!

Remember to DI into the floor and tech it when hit.

Rockets


Both Rockets do 25% each.

You'll be happy when you're controlling the right side when these pop up [assuming MK is on the other side]

If you get hit, no real biggie. you can choose to SDI it so you don't get hit into the other rocket or not.

these don't really have enough hitstun to kill you.

so long as you momentum cancel you should be fine.



Fireballs


lolololol Fireballs.

People ***** about this even though it just does like 1% a hit.

anyways.

shuts down his UpB as an option while under him, while the right one can hit him sometimes if he SH aerials.

Boxes

If you're caught next to MK in this.

JUMP OUT.

if you're blocked by a wall roll away so you don't get hit by his tilts/smashes near you and just chill/charge aurasphere.

not much MK can do lol.

maybe hit him with fsmash when he's not looking?


Singing guy

Provides a wall on the right side.

similar to PS1's Ground Transformation except you can actually fight on the side where the majority of the ground is.

Not Too troublesome, but the chance of dtilt for 13 seconds or so is irking.

keep on the left I guess.


Whale
As always with these walls.

If your caught in throw MK out if you can, if not don't get tilted into it.

pretty easy to not get dtilt ***** here due to whale taking most of the middle tho~

Boat
I'M ON A BOAT
Ok I remember now

On this stage try to throw MK out, and he's not in there to begin with just chillax lol.

try to be under the boat though, so he can't poke you with a dair.

charge an AS or something man.


Large slanted line with eyes

Watch out you can Dtilt comboed on the left!

You won't get killed vertically though I guess.

MK doesn't really have a vertical killer besides Grounded SL tho so its not a huge gain.


Clock

bah

I think this one helps MK more tbh.

makes his SL a little safer/faster to get back to the ground >>

not TOO bad though.


Side flags


HELPS YOU RECOVER

but MK can SL you on them so don't Airdodge into them!


Swinging platform


Helps you get your feet planted on something solid and get away sometimes I suppose.

doesn't really help MK that much.


Five slanted lines


Mess with MK's SL

the 2 on the right can help you live as well.

Pretty decentttt


Farm with platform near the edges.


Helps You recover.

Better then the flags.

Sometimes you can get a grab kill on MK early here (!).


Middle platform thing with flag


Just your average platform.

nothing special.


Platform with ladders


You can do some ladder tricksies here.

hold on dair/hold on again

hold on/airdodge immeaditally

fair -> jump fair -> hold on -> get your jump restored.

but it doesn't really help VS MK lol.


Fourteen small platforms


uh these kinda mess with his SL but idk if you can really punish it here unless he gets forced into his techroll.


Side springs


You can Dair/Double Team off the platform, crouch and become virtually unhittable here LOL.

or you could roll away and Charge AS but that opens you up to spring -> dair [you can shield it if you reactions fast enough tho]

I am PRETTY sure MK can't hit you with spring dair if you crouch but someone test that.

I also think MK MIGHT be able to nab you with dtilt/dsmash on the spring below if you hug
the wall lol.

when it despawns it puts you at the ledge/a kinda bad position vs mk

You can remedy this by jumping into the spring [airdodge or wait or dair depending if you think he'll SL/Jump Aerial or not!]


Blowing face


Bad.

it forces you closer to the ledge.

even if you roll away to the right MKs fast enough that he can chase you with tornado


Pine trees


These can interfere with Grounded SL and force MK into the techroll thing at the right areas.

but besides that doesn't really add much besides platforms and places to land on.


House


Again Forces MK into that techroll/glide trip thing at certain places with a Grounded SL

doesn't really change that much.


Platform ferris wheel


SPIN SPIN SPIN

helps both sides equally IMO.

Can help you land sometimes I guess.


Two slanted platforms/Boobs/Bra/Slanted Eyes


Doesn't really change that much.

AGAIN forces MK into that techroll/glide/trip whatever at certain angles if he Grounded SLs


Umbrella stand


Forces MK into that whatever it is when he Grounded SLs at the right areas.

doesn't really change much.


Big *** Tree with 3 Platforms


if Grounded SLs under these platforms he's ALWAYS gonna get stuck in that whatever you want to call it animation.

abuse this.


**** THIS WAS A ***** TO FORMAT </3

Castle Siege later because I'm lazy after this hard work.


OH YEAH ANOTHER RANDOM PICTOCHAT TIBIT.

If its drawing you can react to the drawings of the drawings with hitboxes and Double Team them if your not in hitstun/lag or anything.

I've done it so can you!.
 

culexus・wau

Purchased premium only to change name ><
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Its Nothing.

also edited a random tidbit in the pictochat section that you might wanna check out again


Castle Siege:

starts to change every 40 seconds

transition is about 5+ seconds [depends on how scractchy the disc is, less scratches faster loading, more scratches more time in transition]

You can get a free stock on MK if you grab him during the transitions to Castle3 or Castle1's offstage zones [while still in the walkoff transition stage]

MK cannot glide under the stages here.

if he breaks out the bottom MK falls to his death and lucario pops right up.

However if MK tries this trick both characters can jump before they die, while this still might mean death on Castle3 [still try though!, I haven't been able to ACTUALLY try recover VS a MK that did this to me there.]

You can still recover on Castle1 via wallclinging or even regrabing the ledge again if you curve well enough.

however.. theres the MK to worry about so be careful.

you can try to dair him for lols I guess.

Does a whole cycle three and a half times [ending an 8 minute match on time out in Castle2]

Castle 1:

this has a normal ceiling and kinda medium small boundaries on the side.

Not a lot of space to roll away.

and if you're playing a more defensive MK its harder to fight him when he controls the left side.

However, its very hard to get gimped here if you DI towards the stage offstage.

If you can tech/keep on clinging.

sooner or later the transition will save you.

I've been able to survive dsf and tyrant 2 v 1 trying to edgeguard me on castle 1 and the transition ended up saving me.

So its definitely possible if a scrub like me can do it.

Castle 2:

Remember on the transition to castle2 you'll end up on the highest platform.

for this reason go to middle left if possible or roll all the way to the walk-off,or get ready to buffer a ledgedrop.

this has a higher ceiling then normal.

You got PLENTY of space to roll/space.

unstale your moves by jabbing the platform over and over.

Watch out for Extended hitbox Shuttle loop [both aerial/ground]

if mk does his shfl fair on the statue its a lot laggier because of the hitlag.

You can abuse the extended hitboxes on the statues too.


also

DO NOT BE AFRAID TO CAMP AT THE CORNER.

Just watch and bait that obvious dash grab.

and when they smarten up/lost their stock.

just play smart [shield/jump to the platform above when needed/roll/short hop air dodge]

and see if you get that grab/cross-up/crossing nair,dair,bair.

Castle3:


Easily the best part of the stage for lucario.

the ceiling is EVER SO SLIGHTLY lower but the boundaries on the side are more like FDs rather then being close to the edge.

Pretty much just flat with some tilts with a hump on the left.

You can't cling to the sides though.




and uh thats it.

CP CASTLE MORE GUYS ITS ONE OF LUCS BEST CPS :(
 

hichez50

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Castle is good. I think we have disscused a lot about Mk. Its about time to move on. I actually had fun reading post this time around.
 

hough123

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
627
Lets Discuss like

Climbers

Wario

Fox

or

Pit
It's Friday, so I'll give it one more day of discussion while I process the info. I'm still waiting for MK's to come over other than P4.

In the meantime, you guys can vote over whomever you'd like. Just a suggestion, but pick a character that you have trouble fighting =o

EDIT: Holy ***, it's Saturday. Pick a new character fast, guys.
 

hichez50

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I say fox. It crucial to pick the right stage since the match-up is even.
 

Zucco

Smash Master
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
4,162
Ban FD.

NO PROBLEM, next.
which one was this for? you should definitely ban FD against both fox and Iceys lol.

Ice climber stages

Personally, I like Battlefield, lylat, and Yoshi's island as neutrals. SV can work too but that platform isnt going to save you every time. Strike FD right away, you dont have a chance there at all. You should Ban that stage too.

Battlefield has all those platforms, which helps you never touch the ground but they do help the ice climber players who know how to use their character outside of just the chaingrab.

Lylat is basically the same thing, though since the floor moves that may save you if you are lucky. Ive never tried this stage against them actually but it doesnt seem like a bad idea

Yoshi's is the same concept as Lylat, but I think it hurts us alittle more.

As for Counterpicks:

Frigate- I always bring them here. I think we beat them pretty solidly here. Stage 1 can gimp nana very easily and stage 2 takes away their ice block camping for the most part. the slant on stage 2 can also save you.

Binstar- Crazy floor and objects that extend your already long hitboxes are sure to help you.

Rainbow cruise- I guess it could work, though you have better options.
 

culexus・wau

Purchased premium only to change name ><
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Brinstar- Crazy floor and objects that extend your already long hitboxes are sure to help you.

Don't forget Acid saving you from CGs.

Beware of the ICs that know the exact time to charge Upsmash -> kill on this stage though.

its lower then it usually is though.
 

hough123

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
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Sorry guys, my schedule's been packed. I'll update this with some picture and edit the title later.

Current Discussion:
Ice Climbers
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
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Okay, so it's pretty obvious for one that we're going to need platforms. ICs are very stage dependent, and we have a tool that's extremely abusable in the MU w/ plats: dair. Be aware that SV plat movement will NOT affect their infinite if they get you, so don't rely on that to save you lol. BF if they don't strike it, and SV are both very prime choices, as dair will pierce through the platforms if they're underneath to them if they're grounded. Another thing to take note of is what could ruin their straight lateral tools, like blizzard and Ice blocks. Lylat is another decent choice imo.

Be aware that on Frigate, if you do go there, the second transformation will NOT completely stop Ice block camping. If they stand back far enough from the dip, the blocks will continue on the other side. It's their choice whether they want to force an approach, however, in return for giving up the center, which is arguably very crucial. The middle plat can offer refuge from IB camping, make sure you steer clear of uair sharking in all these stage picks lol.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
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Well this is now dead, but I have a new assignment for people.

You don't necessarily have to do this in mms/tourney sets, but if you could that's up to you.

Test out how each stage works with Lucario vs. several characters you play against and find out more about the nuances.
I've heard a lot of "I dunnos", and imo stage pick is almost as important as character choice (in some ways more), if we have a really silly effect on a stage in terms of how well we control something (ex standing in a spot and fsmashing or bair camping) we need to know.

That is all.

Since Hough is gone, we might need a new owner YET AGAIN.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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vs Link.

Frigate is the best choice, it's one of his worst stages and it's on of our best.

Castle siege is another bad Link stage we do well on, first part forces close quarters, good for Lucario, second part wrecks his camping a bit, good for Lucario, the third is meh but the tilting can wreck Link, meh.
 

Aurasmash14

Smash Lord
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Jan 31, 2009
Messages
1,540
Well this is now dead, but I have a new assignment for people.

You don't necessarily have to do this in mms/tourney sets, but if you could that's up to you.

Test out how each stage works with Lucario vs. several characters you play against and find out more about the nuances.
I've heard a lot of "I dunnos", and imo stage pick is almost as important as character choice (in some ways more), if we have a really silly effect on a stage in terms of how well we control something (ex standing in a spot and fsmashing or bair camping) we need to know.

That is all.

Since Hough is gone, we might need a new owner YET AGAIN.
give it to the guy who was requested to takeover.

hinthint.
 

Aurasmash14

Smash Lord
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Messages
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aight. im just going on a day trip for a short time. ill update this thread on monday, tuesday at the absolute latest.

thanks to Phil and player-4 btw.

P.S i intend to continue the ice climber discussion. carry on as usual.
 

Steam

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random input

on picto if you dair on the springs on the transformation you can stand inside it and sorta lock people with utilt if they bounce on it
 

Aurasmash14

Smash Lord
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Messages
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uh... what?







oh look someone posted.





right. in case anyone else wont post, ill start with the IC's discussion. first, to get everything obvious out of the way.

1. Ban FD. (or smashville)
2. counterpick a stage with platforms.
3. for the love of God, get a stage where you'll have an easy time dodging their grab!


so what do you guys think about frigate as a cp?
 

Kitamerby

Smash Hero
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Aug 9, 2007
Messages
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Location
Las Vegas
You ever see what happens when ICs spam desynced ice blocks on part 2 of Frigate?


They slide back and forth and make a little fort. :V
 
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