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Garo

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Steve might just be Ridley's new best friend. Enabling wall slams is some good team synergy.

E: Yo, I just watched the Steve presentation and came up with an even better team combo: Dragging an opponent onto the TNT pressure plate with Space Pirate Rush.
 
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Minix0

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The more I play Ridley, the more I become aware of just how stupid his up-b is. It seems really hard to mess with, since the front of his body is basically intangible. Not to mention its range, size, and strength. You really need a counter to deal with it properly.

Combine that with Ridley's incredible ledge hang, Ridley might very well be a planking character lol.
 

Ridley_Prime

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With how Steve can just camp out the opponent unlike any character prior (building the blocks to block out their recovery, etc), pretty much every other character main be freaking out far as that matchup.

Can only hope the wing tipper hitbox of Rid's up B allows you to get through the blocks well enough. Ridley at least has one of the best directional airdodges in the game too in terms of travel distance, so he can just wait to DI airdodge when under the blocks and recover vertically if nothing else, but then there's the other Minecraft stuff he'll have to watch out for on his way up.

The characters whose up B don't have a hitbox (some of the teleporters and such) kinda feel the most screwed here.
 

Garo

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Makes sense. It's a "quake" hitbox after all.
 

Ridley_Prime

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From what I gather, we lose the extra damage from the shockwave on ground, but we do stop having those dumb moments where we should have spikes them but the shockwave cancels it.

So like skewer the last patch, it's kinda both a buff and a nerf. Other than that, just got a rapid jab fix like the other characters. I was expecting worse.
 

Dibble

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Speaking of rapid jab fixes, did the flurry attack to KO changes affect Ridley's guaranteed Skewer after shielding a rapid jab from certain characters?
 

Ridley_Prime

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Good question. Will need to find out.

edit: From the answers I'm getting, seems to have not affected that.

Oh yeah, we can properly parry projectiles now. The thing they thought they fixed in 3.0 has now actually been fixed, six main updates later. Also some more general online improvements that came with the update.
 
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Ridley_Prime

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A visual difference on the up B change, which again, is really nothing much.

Other than that, keep in mind what we can do to Steve with side B in these kind of instances.

 
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CamZilla94

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God it always seems I take such big hiatuses from this place. How's everyone been?
 

Constantini

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Yea, same here. There's little to no tournament representation for ridley, specially during these time, so there doesn't seem to be much to discuss. The discovery period was pretty cool but seems like this characters has been explored to his full capacity now. All of his changes, be it buffs or nerfs have not really been very substantial aside from when upB's startup was made quicker so tbh I don't know what is left to discuss. There's still 4 major balance patches ahead at least, so hopefully those bring some news for us!

I saw a couple of tournament vids on VGboot camp but both times the ridley players switched out immediately. Feels bad man ☹
 

Ridley_Prime

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I mean even Ridley's top players know he's better offline when there's no input lag stuff to deal with, but we're stuck in a wifi era for now, so...

Up B (startup and distance) was the most significant buff, but wouldn't say was the only substantial one. We used to have a side B that didn't kill, up smash had much more blindspots than it does now, pre-patch up air couldn't reliably sweetspot, etc.

Apart from fixing the damn down air, the most I would hope for is either getting some more air speed, or them shaving some end lag off some of his moves.

If we're stuck with quarantine Sakurai balancing though like with the last main update, then am really not expecting much for the next major balance patches. I knew not to expect much from 9.0 after he said it wasn't possible for him to balance by playtesting with the team during lunch like before, which I knew that wasn't a joke either. Fixing the projectile parrying was still a major win at least, that said... I'll take more fix patches if nothing else, like what we just got from 9.02 that removed unintended buffs from DHD and Zelda (no more of the phantom knight BS).
 

Constantini

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At this point I think everyone agrees on precisely what buffs he needs, but the dev team seems scared to buff him where most relevant. I've been playing fighting games forever and that seems to be a recurring theme; there's almost always a small handful of characters that get no significant changes while the rest of the cast get wildly redesigned in every iteration.
As long as some minor endlag and airspeed buffs aren't implemented we will unfortunately just get mopped by a lot of the fast upper tier characters.

On an isolated note, I've been playing against a lot of Shiek mains and after having an awful time, took to training. So, turns out shieks SH. Fair will beat any and every one of ridleys tilts, maybe trade at best. Unlike many characters, she'll flat out hop over Dtilt with that move so neutral is already compromised. A preemptive Nair is about the only decent answer to it yet it's a catch 22 as a single bad Nair means you'll be taking 20-35% plus end up offstage or in a tech chase scenario.
The matchup ends up being similar to ZSS or pikachu who can just run laps round you and just play "come catch me". A clear 6-4 in sheiks favor IMO, wouldn't go as far as 7-3 because my experience against her is fairly recent but man can it feel like it.
 
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meleebrawler

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At this point I think everyone agrees on precisely what buffs he needs, but the dev team seems scared to buff him where most relevant. I've been playing fighting games forever and that seems to be a recurring theme; there's almost always a small handful of characters that get no significant changes while the rest of the cast get wildly redesigned in every iteration.
As long as some minor endlag and airspeed buffs aren't implemented we will unfortunately just get mopped by a lot of the fast upper tier characters.

On an isolated note, I've been playing against a lot of Shiek mains and after having an awful time, took to training. So, turns out shieks SH. Fair will beat any and every one of ridleys tilts, maybe trade at best. Unlike many characters, she'll flat out hop over Dtilt with that move so neutral is already compromised. A preemptive Nair is about the only decent answer to it yet it's a catch 22 as a single bad Nair means you'll be taking 20-35% plus end up offstage or in a tech chase scenario.
The matchup ends up being similar to ZSS or pikachu who can just run laps round you and just play "come catch me". A clear 6-4 in sheiks favor IMO, wouldn't go as far as 7-3 because my experience against her is fairly recent but man can it feel like it.
Have you tried just angling ftilt up? It's a good check for hop-happy opponents. You just have to be more patient than she is, because even Ridley's basic strings do as much, if not more than Sheik's longest. In fact in pretty much all of my best Ridley matches I enter this sort of zen state where I walk up slowly and poke; by not trying to too hard to chase down your opponent you become better able to see their moves coming and react appropriately.

They are not going to buff his airspeed because that would make it too easy to carry people to the blast zones off of a simple down throw. And nobody "needs" buffs unless their moves aren't working right or they are underperforming at their intended purpose, a vision only the dev team knows. They don't care about tiers much because that only applies to 10% of the game
 

Ridley_Prime

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They are not going to buff his airspeed because that would make it too easy to carry people to the blast zones off of a simple down throw.
He already has good down throw setups from ledge. I would just want an airspeed buff (on par with Bowser's at least) so that his almost true combos (up throw > up air, etc) could become true, and so he wouldn't be as vulnerable as he is while in disadvantage. Don't worry though, I'm not expecting it.

And nobody "needs" buffs unless their moves aren't working right or they are underperforming at their intended purpose
Our down air more than fits that bill.

EgVejeAUwAA4beL.jpg

Its risk to reward ratio is awful. Opponent can be right below you offstage and you go for a spike, but the sourspot's so big it fails you most of the time. Aside from the baby sweetspot being inside the sour box, the whole hitbox of the move barely even covers Ridley's feet, and thus loses to pretty much everything except maybe others' bad aerials (i.e. Little Mac's), so its main use is repositioning while recovering, or landing if you're not right above the opponent, saving you from using your double jump. As an attack it fails on almost every level.

Just put the sweetspot enough outside the sourspot, like they did for Ridley's up air. That's not much to ask.


And yeah, current Sheik isn't all that. If it was pre-Ultimate Sheik we'd lose hard, but she still doesn't have fully functioning combos like before.

https://twitter.com/orca_sheik/status/1326734361664745472?s=21

Can see her getting mega buffed again though at some point, knowing Ridley's matchup luck.
 

meleebrawler

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He already has good down throw setups from ledge. I would just want an airspeed buff (on par with Bowser's at least) so that his almost true combos (up throw > up air, etc) could become true, and so he wouldn't be as vulnerable as he is while in disadvantage. Don't worry though, I'm not expecting it.


Our down air more than fits that bill.

View attachment 291842

Its risk to reward ratio is awful. Opponent can be right below you offstage and you go for a spike, but the sourspot's so big it fails you most of the time. Aside from the baby sweetspot being inside the sour box, the whole hitbox of the move barely even covers Ridley's feet, and thus loses to pretty much everything except maybe others' bad aerials (i.e. Little Mac's), so its main use is repositioning while recovering, or landing if you're not right above the opponent, saving you from using your double jump. As an attack it fails on almost every level.

Just put the sweetspot enough outside the sourspot, like they did for Ridley's up air. That's not much to ask.


And yeah, current Sheik isn't all that. If it was pre-Ultimate Sheik we'd lose hard, but she still doesn't have fully functioning combos like before.

https://twitter.com/orca_sheik/status/1326734361664745472?s=21

Can see her getting mega buffed again though at some point, knowing Ridley's matchup luck.
I mean, you just described 80% of stall-then fall moves, in terms of risk-reward. Buffing this move won't really change that. If anything I'm actually glad the spike hitbox is hard to land because that would otherwise just make the move even easier to punish even when it actually hits onstage, and we already have down-angled Wing Blitz if you really want to meteor someone. What down air has that other similar moves don't is a very subtle wind-up that makes it easier to use as a surprise, which obviously works best when used seldomly.

Maybe in some other reality I would wish he had a completely different move as down air simply to avoid some redundancy with Wing Blitz, but I know that's not going to happen here so I'm just remaining realistic in how much adjusting this move will affect Ridley's standing; ie. slim to bupkiss.
 

Ridley_Prime

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:laugh: The dair is already easy to punish when it hits onstage, because it doesn't trade with hardly any moves. Since the hitbox isn't even shifted below Ridley's feet, it's a free punish against him if he uses it. Even the double jump offstage setup doesn't guarantee a spike, and when it doesn't spike, you just kill yourself since you used up the jumps. Yes, there is downward Wing Blitz, but you can't expect to always spike with it in a pinch with the startup that's required.

Others just talk about how the dair should've been the pogo tail, but I could see even that being easy to punish. The dair we got if the hitbox was better placed would at least be a decent landing option, which others' fall/dive dairs can usually boast.
 

Garo

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I've found down air to be most useful against recoveries with no hitboxes or upper protection. Other aerials work too of course, but I sometimes have a hard time timing the button press, which isn't a problem with dair because the hitbox lasts so long. What you do is full hop offstage, dair, double jump (twice?), then Wing Blitz and you can just make it back to the ledge. I've netted many stage spikes and kills with this.

I still agree that the sweetspot should be better. There have been many times where I feel like dair should've spiked but didn't.
 

Constantini

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Did the site change how quoting works? I'm having an OK boomer moment here not being able to figure it out....

I'll try using angled Ftilt more I guess, though as far I've experienced it still trades at bet unless it was preemptive 🙁
As for Dair, we've also beat that horse dead and beyond. It's just a bad move with not real utility other than that surprise factor which you'll only get away with once in a match, and it likely won't amount to much. I mean, Greninja get's a bounce plus the ability to reposition, ridley gets....punished lol. I don't know, maybe if he recoiled upwards more during the startup it could be a decent get off me move when Uair combo characters are juggling you? Not a whole lot you can do with it.

I'm curious, what's everyone's average GSP? It looks like the global GSP values have finally simmered this year, where at release the maximum seemed to go from 3 mil to 5 mil in like one month. We're likely about the largest dedicated ridley playerbase out there so I kind of want to know where I stand 🤷‍♂️
I sit between 7.9 - 8.3 mil on the average session. Mostly staying in elite smash but ocassionally dipping out for a few matches. The 8.3 mil threshold is where I can clearly start seeing the difference between me and those who dedicate more daily hours to the game.
 

meleebrawler

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Did the site change how quoting works? I'm having an OK boomer moment here not being able to figure it out....

I'll try using angled Ftilt more I guess, though as far I've experienced it still trades at bet unless it was preemptive 🙁
As for Dair, we've also beat that horse dead and beyond. It's just a bad move with not real utility other than that surprise factor which you'll only get away with once in a match, and it likely won't amount to much. I mean, Greninja get's a bounce plus the ability to reposition, ridley gets....punished lol. I don't know, maybe if he recoiled upwards more during the startup it could be a decent get off me move when Uair combo characters are juggling you? Not a whole lot you can do with it.

I'm curious, what's everyone's average GSP? It looks like the global GSP values have finally simmered this year, where at release the maximum seemed to go from 3 mil to 5 mil in like one month. We're likely about the largest dedicated ridley playerbase out there so I kind of want to know where I stand 🤷‍♂️
I sit between 7.9 - 8.3 mil on the average session. Mostly staying in elite smash but ocassionally dipping out for a few matches. The 8.3 mil threshold is where I can clearly start seeing the difference between me and those who dedicate more daily hours to the game.

I'm pretty much locked at 8.35ish; you don't move much in either direction once you get that high. The only other character I've seen topping my Ridley's GSP at times is my Bowser.
 

Garo

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I'm at 8,387,981 GSP after my latest online session. That seems to be my 2nd highest, only topped by Dark Samus with 8,389,578.

While I was at it, I looked at some additional statistics just for fun:

  • Ridley's my most used online character by quite a wide margin, having 1125 battles under his belt. 2nd is Little Mac with 734.
  • KO move categories from highest to lowest: air attack (868), smash attack (785), special (658), other (186), meteor smash (90), tilt attack (79), item (61), throw (51) and final smash (35).
 
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Constantini

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Funny enough, I made it to 8.36 mil today as my all time highest, I'm fairly content with that. You really don't move much at all by that point.....this damn online system is really bad. Sure would be nice to have ranks, like every other FG in existence has had for over a decade.

I find at this rank(using the term loosely) most of the matches I lose are from long combos and juggles into KO scenarios. Brings the whole idea of buffing his air speed a smidge back home, sometimes you'll just eat 40-60% in one go plus end up off stage. I think that's his only glaring blind spot. The other heavies have super armor moves to compensate as a GTO tactic but we only really have Nair if they mistime their juggles.

One other thing that has also really bugged me since release is how Usmash just misses sometimes. It works wonders like mario's revers Usmash but itll just go through the other guy at times. It's like falcon's Usmash which has been inconsistent for 3 games now 🤷‍♂️

Edit: Do any of you guys have footage of yourselves playing? There's barely any good ridley match vids so I thought maybe I can learn a thing or two from everyone else.
 
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meleebrawler

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Funny enough, I made it to 8.36 mil today as my all time highest, I'm fairly content with that. You really don't move much at all by that point.....this damn online system is really bad. Sure would be nice to have ranks, like every other FG in existence has had for over a decade.

I find at this rank(using the term loosely) most of the matches I lose are from long combos and juggles into KO scenarios. Brings the whole idea of buffing his air speed a smidge back home, sometimes you'll just eat 40-60% in one go plus end up off stage. I think that's his only glaring blind spot. The other heavies have super armor moves to compensate as a GTO tactic but we only really have Nair if they mistime their juggles.

One other thing that has also really bugged me since release is how Usmash just misses sometimes. It works wonders like mario's revers Usmash but itll just go through the other guy at times. It's like falcon's Usmash which has been inconsistent for 3 games now 🤷‍♂️

Edit: Do any of you guys have footage of yourselves playing? There's barely any good ridley match vids so I thought maybe I can learn a thing or two from everyone else.
Only DK and K. Rool have armored moves they can use in the air, and only the latter is even remotely effective at deterring juggles.

Usmash used to have less reach in front than in back, the only real reason it whiffs these days is the opponent being too short to hit from the ground.

And the way ranking is presented here does not change how it is always harder to advance and maintain standings the higher you go, regardless of the kind of game you play. If this game didn't have such a robust playerbase, you'd run the risk of your placing being devastated by losing to lower-ranked players. AT the end of the day I only care about rankings in the sense that they give me close matches in skill.
 

Constantini

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Only DK and K. Rool have armored moves they can use in the air, and only the latter is even remotely effective at deterring juggles.

Usmash used to have less reach in front than in back, the only real reason it whiffs these days is the opponent being too short to hit from the ground.

And the way ranking is presented here does not change how it is always harder to advance and maintain standings the higher you go, regardless of the kind of game you play. If this game didn't have such a robust playerbase, you'd run the risk of your placing being devastated by losing to lower-ranked players. AT the end of the day I only care about rankings in the sense that they give me close matches in skill.
More-so what I meant with the rankings is to have tiers that are dependent on both time played and overall W/L ratio. With the janky GSP system that places characters initial values on some bunk factors like single player, I get a load of games with people at say, 7.8 mil who haven't even grasped the basics. Meanwhile you can also be matched with someone at that exact same GSP who has likely been playing since day 1 and maybe just had a few losses in a row but stays around the top.
In most other FG's you'll hit rank milestones that will each have a base standard level for players. SFV has a terrible online but I will never be running into bronze lever players in ultra diamond.
 

Ridley_Prime

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Funny enough, I made it to 8.36 mil today as my all time highest, I'm fairly content with that. You really don't move much at all by that point.....this damn online system is really bad. Sure would be nice to have ranks, like every other FG in existence has had for over a decade.

I find at this rank(using the term loosely) most of the matches I lose are from long combos and juggles into KO scenarios. Brings the whole idea of buffing his air speed a smidge back home, sometimes you'll just eat 40-60% in one go plus end up off stage. I think that's his only glaring blind spot. The other heavies have super armor moves to compensate as a GTO tactic but we only really have Nair if they mistime their juggles.

One other thing that has also really bugged me since release is how Usmash just misses sometimes. It works wonders like mario's revers Usmash but itll just go through the other guy at times. It's like falcon's Usmash which has been inconsistent for 3 games now 🤷‍♂️

Edit: Do any of you guys have footage of yourselves playing? There's barely any good ridley match vids so I thought maybe I can learn a thing or two from everyone else.
Forgot to reply to this earlier, but mainly just have clips of me labbing some stuff. Haven't really dabbled in the GSP headache in awhile or recorded the matches I've won (rarely think to do so), but since I've gotten to playing some Smash more again, guess I should get back into that soon, to at least get back into elite.

If you're just looking for other Ridley's to watch, there's Vreyvus who has great guides on youtube to start with and some twitter clips to often learn from. Same with OverLade who has some pretty informative guides. Nagare if you want someone whose a good dedicated main from Japan to watch (the top Japan Rid actually), whose matches are on youtube. Then there’s Acroraptor whose the most active with clips in general (mainly on twitter), often having outside the box combos and setups for Rid, though is mostly a wifi player, but much one can still learn from. Zeta5 is good in a similar vein with some clips and guides here and there; is on youtube also.

There's probably one or two other good/top ones I'm not thinking of, but our character has plenty vids and resources if you know where to look.
 

RomanceDawn

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Off stage down air is one of my favorite moves! I get so much mileage out of it! Depending on the opponents recovery it is so good at keeping them at bay. I will not stand for this blasphemy. Quit using it on stage and take over the edge and recover from oblivion!
 

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Off stage down air is one of my favorite moves! I get so much mileage out of it! Depending on the opponents recovery it is so good at keeping them at bay. I will not stand for this blasphemy. Quit using it on stage and take over the edge and recover from oblivion!
It's so satisfying to land that move on opponents off stage and spike them to finish them off. Literally one of the most satisfying spikes to successfully land due to how risky it is performing it off stage.
 

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I would sooner fair/bair or nair off stage, or if it’s the opponent’s last stock, wing blitz. Dair is almost never worth it aside from repositioning. Depends on their recovery though, yeah.

Apparently the up throw > up air combo works reliably on heavies since their airdodge takes a frame longer to come out than the other characters, and on SBF, kills them. Aside from tossing the opponent to the top mid platform on regular BF, up throw is an underrated move, the uses of which have been kinda overlooked too long. Back throw is honestly the worst of Ridley’s throws. Not useless but has the least utility/setups feels like, partially with how slow it is compared to the others.
 

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Funny timing when I started picking up more on pivot angled f-tilts in training mode not too long ago. Still, good to see how quick the pivot down angle tilt works in action on a recovering opponent. The pivot up angle one might be one of our quicker anti-air options, or at least an alternative for situations when up tilt might not do it for you.

The fullhop reverse nair bit is important too (with or without platform assistance), though you can do so with b-air as well, easily killing at high %’s depending on how you set it up.
 

Constantini

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That's actually really neat. I'd rather do a standard full hop Bair past 60% but the reverse Nair is something I hadn't actually thought of; I'll take it to the field and see how it goes.

Sourspotting Nair on the tail end has sometimes awarded me some pretty cool(albeit unintended) interactions but the variables are too many to really lab it consistently.
 
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Ridley_Prime

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Yeah, know what ya mean. Also, after seeing this clip here, definitely gonna use backwards wing blitz offensively more often when it comes to getting back to stage, since always using the forward version is just more readable for the opponent.

The Sephiroth matchup will be something... Unlocked him early as a pass owner, and damn, Seph's down air is pretty much everything Ridley's should be, disjoint and all. Sorry for beating that dead horse again, but is pretty much what everyone thought when examining Seph's moveset. Some of Sephiroth's moves also kinda give that "Ridley but better" feel on first impression, at least with range. Will be interesting to see how his meta develops, for our and others' matchup with him. The fighter adjustments and stuff for 10.0 I guess won't be till he officially releases for everyone on the 22nd.

Oh, for fighting the AI Sephiroth to unlock him, plasma breath cheese is quite effective even on very hard.

And Seph’s not as heavy as you would think... Good thing for us too his counter isn't as good as other character's.

Another edit: Oh my, this is even more record breaking.

 
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Garo

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So how about this bs:
I know Lucas' b-air hitbox is kind of special, but getting spiked from below just felt wrong.

Changing topics, Sephiroth's neutral special has me a little envious. He can drift left or right while charging it in the air and even cancel out of it by shielding, dodging or jumping. Imagine Ridley had such power...
 

Ridley_Prime

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Such power with what? Charging plasma breath?

Seeing someone like Sephiroth does make me question again though why they were as conservative as they were with Ridley's attack range. He's already outranged by the swordies as it is, but Sephiroth takes it to another level, though Seph's also more prone to whiffing as a result of his range, but still.

Skewer breaks Sephiroth's counter barrier btw, as does a charged f-smash. Glad his counter's a more limited kind compared to everyone else's. Definitely feels like they tried to balance him more compared to other DLC, between that and his weight.
 
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Constantini

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Such power with what? Charging plasma breath?

Seeing someone like Sephiroth does make me question again though why they were as conservative as they were with Ridley's attack range. He's already outranged by the swordies as it is, but Sephiroth takes it to another level, though Seph's also more prone to whiffing as a result of his range, but still.

Skewer breaks Sephiroth's counter barrier btw, as does a charged f-smash. Glad his counter's a more limited kind compared to everyone else's. Definitely feels like they tried to balance him more compared to other DLC, between that and his weight.
Well, I've been learning sephiroth exclusively since he launched as he looked interesting(not an ff7 kid) to play as, and it feels to me like he's just a better Ridley. After 2 years of maining Ridley I think I'm ready to drop him and just keep him as my fun character. I play samus and wolf on the side, plus sephiroth now and neither of those characters has to deal with all the junk that ridley does.

I could elaborate on why sephi is a better rids but most of it feels obvious? Getting the real obvious things out of the way, Dair. Come one, what the **** is that about? They just gave him the same move but that actually works, and really well. When you have Wing, your'e flat out better at what I perceive to be Ridley's own game. Incredible edge guarding, great advantage when below the opponent, high damaging(or well, insta kill) setups....you name it. Not really complaining, I really enjoy playing sephiroth but sakurai really just **** on ridley's chest this time around ¯\(ツ)
 

Ridley_Prime

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Well, I've been learning sephiroth exclusively since he launched as he looked interesting(not an ff7 kid) to play as, and it feels to me like he's just a better Ridley. After 2 years of maining Ridley I think I'm ready to drop him and just keep him as my fun character. I play samus and wolf on the side, plus sephiroth now and neither of those characters has to deal with all the junk that ridley does.

I could elaborate on why sephi is a better rids but most of it feels obvious? Getting the real obvious things out of the way, Dair. Come one, what the ** is that about? They just gave him the same move but that actually works, and really well. When you have Wing, your'e flat out better at what I perceive to be Ridley's own game. Incredible edge guarding, great advantage when below the opponent, high damaging(or well, insta kill) setups....you name it. Not really complaining, I really enjoy playing sephiroth but sakurai really just ** on ridley's chest this time around ¯\(ツ)
I really hyped Seph too at first, but it's not as black and white as "Sephiroth good, Ridley bad", even with the better d-air. Since we've gone over Ridley's weaknesses to death, let's go into detail over Sephiroth's to make it fair.


Everything besides his range/power is lackluster. Bad frame data, is super lightweight (similar to Mewtwo as a glass cannon), recovery that is easily abused and exploited in a similar vein to Ridley's...

As much as his range is hyped, it's also not even that good on many of his moves. His sword is like a poking stick that has extreme range in one direction, but is easily crossed up or dodged (plus you know, the whiffing). An example on his range, his up smash is way too slow and precise to be as good as say Ganondorf's up smash. Sephiroth's f-smash whiffs all the time as foes run past him during its gigantic start up, and his down smash is just for hard reads more or less, like Ridley's. His coverage is bad despite the range.

He has to rely heavily on Flare to the point reflectors and absorbers are a huge problem. If his projectiles were disjointed it'd be better. I will say though, Gigaflare is legitimately giant enough to be difficult to get around at ledge, but requires you hit the foe pretty far off stage for it to matter.

Like Ridley, he gets zoned by anyone with a half decent projectile. Has no response to that or reflectors, as Gigaflare is so important to his play.

His down special is honestly the worst counter in the game, which is unfortunate with how required he is to use it in most matchups. You know something's wrong when Ridley's Skewer can hit him before his counter comes out (what happens when their down specials are done at the same time), and since it's technically a projectile, if you counter something like Ness/Lucas' f-smash, you basically just die... The counter also directly loses to multihit projectiles and hit him, on top of breaking against strong projectiles. Plus that break in the middle for foes to just hit him out of it if they wait to like charge a smash, which Ridley can do and break his counter with as pointed out earlier.

His OWA doesn't do enough for him I'd argue; not like Arsene does for Joker. That said, his KO power is reliant on that (OWA affecting his slow smashes with the armor) and his tipper, as he doesn't have KO throws and such.

The problem with Sephiroth mostly comes down to how hard he loses neutral to anyone fast with combo moves and in disadvantage there's very little he can do like with Ridley. You have to just stomp the opposing player into dust like Ganondorf or Mac. He certainly isn't winning just off his slow and telegraphed melee game. He's like Mac in the sense that he has massive power but dies very quickly.


This isn't just me saying this kind of stuff btw. Even Seph's Discord was basically like "He-he's totally high tier! Er, maybe mid... H-haha...", on first impression.

You do you though on who you main or secondary. I don't blame you or anyone who drops Rid down to a secondary personally, but just keeping it honest here. Seph could use buffs like Ridley as it is with all that said, though may not happen with the diminishing character adjustments that have been had with the updates as of late.
 

Constantini

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I'll concede that sephi has his own badly lopsided matchups against some small characters, and most certainly reflector characters but on much of the rest we'll have to agree to disagree. His frame data isn't terrific on paper but his kit melds much better into a concise gameplay when you apply it correctly imo. Then again, frame data doesn't give the full picture in smash in a lot of cases. See, he loses pretty hard to samus, fox ,falco, etc, but he also deals with high/top tiers better than ridley. There is a 2 frame window in which Nair becomes massive and is actually an amazing gtfo/pressure tool. You haven't seen much of it because he's still new and a lot of people aren't used to it yet. It took me a couple of weeks to get used to it but now that I'm landing the 2 framer consistently(offline mind you, online he's a big gamble) I'm finding a lot of success in neutral.

Take a common high tier like mario and a scenario that should be to your advantage, like perfectly crossing his shield up with Nair. You will still lose because he can punish with pivot grab, instant Bair, UpB and whatever else. Ridley's size + frame data just makes it so, and the same can be said against ZSS or wolf or joker or whatever. If you do the same with sephi you'll reset back to neutral. and still be in a position to retreat or shield or space out again.

Again, a lot of people aren't playing him right because they're not getting the best out of his tippers or properly understanding how to go about mitigating for his disadvantage state. Even then, he is a very odd character in the sense that his tipper distances vary from move to move, and so does the frame data attached to them. But man, even without OWA you can just Fair mid weights into the blast zone at around 70% if you get the tipper which isn't hard at all. I'd go as far as to say that OWA is just a small bonus as I get a lot of my kills without it.

I might be wrong and I'll gladly eat my words, it just irks me that ridley occupied such a weird unique albeit flawed niche in his gameplan, then they toss a character at us that occupies that exact same niche. If he has one disadvantage over ridley that is clear to me it's that he gets **** on by reflector characters.
 

Garo

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I've found Ridley v Sephiroth to be a pretty fun matchup. Octaslash not snapping to the ledge and having huge endlag has allowed for some nice Skewers. Considering Sephiroth's weight, that's like half a stock. Conversely, it's fun trying to outspace Ridley with Sephiroth and throwing out moves that cover half the stage towards a hurtbox that covers half the stage.

Sephi's dair at the ledge is ridiculous, but fun to do. Let's be real though, Ridley's dair should be able to do the poking-through-stage-thing with his tail.
:ultridley:: Get on it, Sakurai!
 

RetrogamerMax

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So how about this bs:
I know Lucas' b-air hitbox is kind of special, but getting spiked from below just felt wrong.

Changing topics, Sephiroth's neutral special has me a little envious. He can drift left or right while charging it in the air and even cancel out of it by shielding, dodging or jumping. Imagine Ridley had such power...

Like, what the hell?!
 

Constantini

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It's nothing new man, you deal with those things as ridley. I had a vid a few months ago where I tried to surprised Dair a Mario who had just happened to do a short hop Fair(spike), and even though I was fully above him, the interaction had me dunked at mach 5 terminal speed straight to the blast zone. It was unbelievable.
 
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