Social Lower Norfair

[Minix0]

Is it just me or does Ridley lose the DK matchup? All of Ridley's usual stuff doesn't seem to work as well for whatever reason.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Haven’t had that problem. Once Ridley’s in advantage, DK seems as easy to combo/edgeguard as any other big body. Would say he’s one of the more even matchups though. Not a definite win or lose, but even.

 

[Minix0]

Haven’t had that problem. Once Ridley’s in advantage, DK seems as easy to combo/edgeguard as any other big body. Would say he’s one of the more even matchups though. Not a definite win or lose, but even.

How do you go about edgeguarding him? I keep getting caught in the hitbox when I go for a gimp. Idk why but I just have such a mental block against the character lol.

 

[Oracle Link]

Would you Guys like Metroid

as the next Fighter?

 

[Ridley_Prime]

How do you go about edgeguarding him? I keep getting caught in the hitbox when I go for a gimp. Idk why but I just have such a mental block against the character lol.

Plasma just eats DK's recovery, so probably the safest option to go for. It's easy to downward wing blitz him from a distance too during the spinning punches.

 

[RomanceDawn]

How do you go about edgeguarding him? I keep getting caught in the hitbox when I go for a gimp. Idk why but I just have such a mental block against the character lol.

Against DK, mid air, off stage Down Air is so good. His arms/hurt box won't get you from above and DK's recovery is so easily telegraphed I often get 2 or 3 in easily before he makes it back. Going head on with a Forward Air or Neutral Air can work but you take the risk of getting caught up in the spinning kong. It will almost never happen with Down Air of stage.

I main both Ridley and DK and find the match up fairly equal but once DK is far away from the stage his horizontal recovery is easy Down Air bait.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

I guess this is one of those things that should be obvious, but feel players need to mix up where they edgeguard with plasma breath more, because of the ledge intangibility that exists for everyone until higher % where it diminishes; at lower % make full charged plasma bounce to where it catches an above ledge recovery. Too many times have I seen people just go a roll distance away from ledge and fireballing at said ledge, only for it to do no good because of the opponent having ledge intangibility and then getting back on stage.

Another alternative for edgeguarding at earlier % is to ledge trump someone that's hanging, which downward wing blitz is a good way to set up into doing so. Either they hang on ledge long enough and lose intangibility, making the downward wing blitz kill them when it snaps to ledge, or you ledge trump them with it, which you can then followup with backwards nair, bair, etc. Either way it's a win-win.

 

[IsmaR]

Downward angled F-tilt always does wonder for DK's enormous hitbox while grabbing the ledge, I find.

-

Seems this got removed, for reasons.

This brings up all kinds of emotion after years of saying it should have happened.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

After the Melee Wolf mod I wasn’t expecting much more, but if the community’s going for modding like everyone that appeared in their game’s own intro, then that’s kinda cool, but Melee trophy Ridley’s so aged and weird to look at now.

Since I guess him getting modded in Smash 64 wasn’t gonna happen though (partly due to not having an existing model from the 64 era to go off of) like with some of the Melee debuted characters, him getting modded in Melee itself is the next best thing.

 

[Minix0]

I guess this is one of those things that should be obvious, but feel players need to mix up where they edgeguard with plasma breath more, because of the ledge intangibility that exists for everyone until higher % where it diminishes; at lower % make full charged plasma bounce to where it catches an above ledge recovery. Too many times have I seen people just go a roll distance away from ledge and fireballing at said ledge, only for it to do no good because of the opponent having ledge intangibility and then getting back on stage.

Another alternative for edgeguarding at earlier % is to ledge trump someone that's hanging, which downward wing blitz is a good way to set up into doing so. Either they hang on ledge long enough and lose intangibility, making the downward wing blitz kill them when it snaps to ledge, or you ledge trump them with it, which you can then followup with backwards nair, bair, etc. Either way it's a win-win.

I usually just two frame with it tbh. But yeah the occasional mix up doesn't hurt either.

 

[Minix0]

Spoiler: chart

https://www.smashtierlist.com/074ea14393de316ac1f093eca9cc322b02b3f042b9f6598c13f40b0812c36bbf/

So I'm not exactly a top player but I have played Ridley for over two years and have had him in elite smash for over a year. Although I know GSP is a terrible system I have been in the top 2% of elite for a while, currently at about 9,060,000 GSP. All that to say, I don't wanna sound like I'm bragging or anything I only bring that up to give me if anything a little credibility (as if GSP hardly does that anyway lol) in dropping this match up chart for him. Thoughts appreciated.

Oh yeah, and some characters like Min Min I'm pretty unsure about. There may be a few others like that too.

 

[Constantini]

I think I agree with like 95% of that list too, not sure about why wii fit trainer is so high up though. Personally, I would move zelda and snake to even stevens and move mario/joker to -2. The belmont matchup is laughable but thats just one of those weird one-off matches that happens to be awful for ridley. Sometimes you can legit not do anything.

I would also move G&W to -.5, I dont think he's that bad for the ridley matchup. One thing I learned is that you can reliably punish his Dair landing with you Ftilt tipper and boy does that make a difference,

 

[Minix0]

I think I agree with like 95% of that list too, not sure about why wii fit trainer is so high up though. Personally, I would move zelda and snake to even stevens and move mario/joker to -2. The belmont matchup is laughable but thats just one of those weird one-off matches that happens to be awful for ridley. Sometimes you can legit not do anything.

I would also move G&W to -.5, I dont think he's that bad for the ridley matchup. One thing I learned is that you can reliably punish his Dair landing with you Ftilt tipper and boy does that make a difference,

Yeah on paper he loses just cause projectiles but yeah its probably not that bad.

I don't really see Snake as even though, if anything -.05.

That being said after playing good Palu's I'm tempted to put her in -1 or -.05, but then again they were just probably better players idk.

You might be right about GnW, upsmash probably obliterates his dair anyway. My thing about Mario though is although he's really hard to get off your shield, Ridley's fair goes right though Mario's fireball, so you can use it to catch him trying to camp you. Not to mention Mario isn't really that hard to edgeguard.

For reference Ridley's worst mu's are ones where
1) He can't gimp you very well
2) He can't approach
3) He can't hit you/gets stuck in shield thanks to really slow OoS options
At least imo

 

[Constantini]

Yeah on paper he loses just cause projectiles but yeah its probably not that bad.

I don't really see Snake as even though, if anything -.05.

That being said after playing good Palu's I'm tempted to put her in -1 or -.05, but then again they were just probably better players idk.

You might be right about GnW, upsmash probably obliterates his dair anyway. My thing about Mario though is although he's really hard to get off your shield, Ridley's fair goes right though Mario's fireball, so you can use it to catch him trying to camp you. Not to mention Mario isn't really that hard to edgeguard.

For reference Ridley's worst mu's are ones where
1) He can't gimp you very well
2) He can't approach
3) He can't hit you/gets stuck in shield thanks to really slow OoS options
At least imo

****ing hell I honestly didn't know that about Mario's fireball and I feel like a moron. I need to try that ASAP.
I actually forgot about Palu, yea, throw her into -99999. I'm admitedly salty about how dumb a character she is but its an annoying MU nonetheless.

About G&W's Dair; you'd think so! But alas I have exhausted that option and he flat out beats Usmash. I think the hitbox on the key might just be like 2 pixels longer than Ridley's Usmash. Otherwise I can't really disagree with your list.

 

[Minix0]

****ing hell I honestly didn't know that about Mario's fireball and I feel like a moron. I need to try that ASAP.
I actually forgot about Palu, yea, throw her into -99999. I'm admitedly salty about how dumb a character she is but its an annoying MU nonetheless.

About G&W's Dair; you'd think so! But alas I have exhausted that option and he flat out beats Usmash. I think the hitbox on the key might just be like 2 pixels longer than Ridley's Usmash. Otherwise I can't really disagree with your list.

Don't really know what to think of Palu tbh. I know its not good but idk how much so. Her projectiles honestly aren't that annoying, its just her nair, her counter, and her disappearing recovery that makes it a pain.

Are you sure about that GnW dair? Rid's upsmash has invincibility so I really don't see how it'd hit unless its an extreme disjoint. Either way yeah I don't think GnW is too much of a bother.

And Mario def isn't a piece of cake but yeah its manageable. Either character can take the other out depending on the game.

 

[Crowviknight]

Is it just me or does Ridley lose the DK matchup? All of Ridley's usual stuff doesn't seem to work as well for whatever reason.

No, I don’t think so. Ridley beats DK, but not as hard as most others do. Or at least, that’s how I see it. DK‘s recovery is trash and Ridley’s edgeguards should definitely take care of DK, as well as him being easy to hit in general. Sure, you’ll always run the risk of dying very early, but...overall, Ridley still comes out on top.

Sorry I replied so late, I’m new here and just saw this.

 

[Minix0]

If Ridley gets buffs, its gonna be like:

Fair
Made hits connect more reliably




Not saying he needs much but having side b actually kill and making some of his tippers bigger would be huge. Ridley relies way too much on edgeguarding to win. Kill confirm would be nice too.

like seriously uair sweetspot size is pathetic

 

[meleebrawler]

If Ridley gets buffs, its gonna be like:

Fair
Made hits connect more reliably




Not saying he needs much but having side b actually kill and making some of his tippers bigger would be huge. Ridley relies way too much on edgeguarding to win. Kill confirm would be nice too.

like seriously uair sweetspot size is pathetic

Are you still playing version 1.0.0 or something?

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Yeah, I’m fine with post-patch side B and uair. It’s just the utilt > uair kill confirm is too % range specific to be done much consistently.

 

[Minix0]

Yeah, I’m fine with post-patch side B and uair. It’s just the utilt > uair kill confirm is too % range specific to be done much consistently.

Yeah that too.

I've had people live up to 140% with side-b. The launch angle is kinda bad. Its 78 frames if you miss. It's not a bad move by any means but...I wouldn't say its great.

And unless I hit an opponent REALLY close to the blastzone, up air doesn't kill until 130ish on Mario. The sourspot basically doesn't kill either.

Ftilt's sweetspot seems hard to land too, but I don't have that much of a problem with it.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Yeah that too.

I've had people live up to 140% with side-b. The launch angle is kinda bad. Its 78 frames if you miss. It's not a bad move by any means but...I wouldn't say its great.

And unless I hit an opponent REALLY close to the blastzone, up air doesn't kill until 130ish on Mario. The sourspot basically doesn't kill either.

Ftilt's sweetspot seems hard to land too, but I don't have that much of a problem with it.

Yeah, it's common to see the "KO screen" after side B at those percents, but if someone DI's well enough, they'll survive what would've otherwise killed them. If they was to extend the launch distance of side B again or something like they did with 4.0 I certainly won't complain, but my biggest hope for a hypothetical would still have to be reducing the end lag.

Just checked one of the Ridley combo docs for the utilt > uair kill range on everyone, and for Mario, u-tilt > fullhop u-air kills him from around 88 to 91%, while utilt > double jump uair kills him around 92 to 98%. On Final Destination anyway, and Pokémon Stadium 2 due to sharing the same distance between the stage and top blastzone as FD. For like Battlefield, Town & City, or Kalos, said combo will kill 4-6% later due to the blastzone ceiling being higher.

Just tested on Mario on FD myself to confirm it's still the case, and yeah. Not saying you do but for killing with uair on its own, probably helps not to stale it from using it much earlier on. Then again, uair is a good move to rack up damage early on even when it doesn't kill.

I would just like the tilt sweetspots to matter more if anything. Ftilt sweetspot only matters much for killing when it's the down angled version. For dtilt, although the sweetspot obviously does more damage and knockback, you're better off using the sourspot due to the better combo setups you get off of it. Up tilt has a sweetspot too apparently, but it's like the middle of the hitbox, where the little spike on the wings are located. Not sure how often you normally land said sweetspot with that move, but interesting to note.

Curious as to what little balance changes tonight's update will bring, but as usual am not expecting much. Something like making the fair hits more consistent is the most realistic thing to expect like you said, but I just hope the Pyra/Mythra matchup is somewhere in the realm of doable, regardless.

 

[Minix0]

Yeah, it's common to see the "KO screen" after side B at those percents, but if someone DI's well enough, they'll survive what would've otherwise killed them. If they was to extend the launch distance of side B again or something like they did with 4.0 I certainly won't complain, but my biggest hope for a hypothetical would still have to be reducing the end lag.

Just checked one of the Ridley combo docs for the utilt > uair kill range on everyone, and for Mario, u-tilt > fullhop u-air kills him from around 88 to 91%, while utilt > double jump uair kills him around 92 to 98%. On Final Destination anyway, and Pokémon Stadium 2 due to sharing the same distance between the stage and top blastzone as FD. For like Battlefield, Town & City, or Kalos, said combo will kill 4-6% later due to the blastzone ceiling being higher.

Just tested on Mario on FD myself to confirm it's still the case, and yeah. Not saying you do but for killing with uair on its own, probably helps not to stale it from using it much earlier on. Then again, uair is a good move to rack up damage early on even when it doesn't kill.

I would just like the tilt sweetspots to matter more if anything. Ftilt sweetspot only matters much for killing when it's the down angled version. For dtilt, although the sweetspot obviously does more damage and knockback, you're better off using the sourspot due to the better combo setups you get off of it. Up tilt has a sweetspot too apparently, but it's like the middle of the hitbox, where the little spike on the wings are located. Not sure how often you normally land said sweetspot with that move, but interesting to note.

Curious as to what little balance changes tonight's update will bring, but as usual am not expecting much. Something like making the fair hits more consistent is the most realistic thing to expect like you said, but I just hope the Pyra/Mythra matchup is somewhere in the realm of doable, regardless.

The main problem with his kill confirm is it isn't true, or if it is it's way too specific. You can DI away or air dodge.

My problem with uair aside from its sweetspot size is its sourspot, which is 90% of the move, is basically worthless. It's like Roy's pool noodle sword from Melee. They really need to make that part stronger at the bare minimum.

And yeah, side b is too slow. Adjust the launch angle so it kills at 120 like an actual command grab and I'll be a happy camper. Weight buff would be fine, but its not exactly what he needs to get out of mid tier.

No need to be concerned for Pyra btw, Ridley does fine or wins against swordies usually anyway, unless their name is Sephiroth.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

The main problem with his kill confirm is it isn't true, or if it is it's way too specific. You can DI away or air dodge.

My problem with uair aside from its sweetspot size is its sourspot, which is 90% of the move, is basically worthless. It's like Roy's pool noodle sword from Melee. They really need to make that part stronger at the bare minimum.

And yeah, side b is too slow. Adjust the launch angle so it kills at 120 like an actual command grab and I'll be a happy camper. Weight buff would be fine, but its not exactly what he needs to get out of mid tier.

No need to be concerned for Pyra btw, Ridley does fine or wins against swordies usually anyway, unless their name is Sephiroth.

Far as I know, the kill confirm (when used at the right % range on said character) is only not true if you utilt opponents on platforms, as there is not enough frame advantage for it to work there. If the opponent is slow to act though, a utilt underneath a platform can lead into a kill off of uair. Still, your point remains in that it's way too specific.

Fair enough on the other stuff.

Mostly came back here real quick to comment on the new balance changes. While we got no buffs again (alas), the high tier nerfs are just as good if not better. Buffs only benefit us, while top oppressors being nerfed (Palu and ZSS) benefits us and nearly everyone else.

Nintendo Support: Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Update Ver. 11.0.0 - Fighter Adjustments

en-americas-support.nintendo.com

Ridley's balancing is so delicate that he's often affected the worst by the power creep that comes with the meta changes as a result (his worst matchups having already been buffed to hell and back too), but some of those changes here will help with that. Keep giving those kind of balance changes with the updates again and I'll be a happy camper, even if Rid isn't directly buffed anymore still.

 

[Minix0]

Far as I know, the kill confirm (when used at the right % range on said character) is only not true if you utilt opponents on platforms, as there is not enough frame advantage for it to work there. If the opponent is slow to act though, a utilt underneath a platform can lead into a kill off of uair. Still, your point remains in that it's way too specific.

Fair enough on the other stuff.

Mostly came back here real quick to comment on the new balance changes. While we got no buffs again (alas), the high tier nerfs are just as good if not better. Buffs only benefit us, while top oppressors being nerfed (Palu and ZSS) benefits us and nearly everyone else.

Nintendo Support: Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Update Ver. 11.0.0 - Fighter Adjustments

en-americas-support.nintendo.com

Ridley's balancing is so delicate that he's often affected the worst by the power creep that comes with the meta changes as a result (his worst matchups having already been buffed to hell and back too), but some of those changes here will help with that. Keep giving those kind of balance changes with the updates again and I'll be a happy camper, even if Rid isn't directly buffed anymore still.

I'm really enjoying the Palu nerf as a Ridley main. Joker and Wario esp too. Maybe he'll move up some just because. Palu was def one of his worst mu's.

 

[Constantini]

Yo, eff pyra and mythra. This scrubby ass character kills with a Dair that covers the entire character and a Utilt that kills at like 90% and has twice as big of a hitbox as Ridley's.

What is with the DLC balancing?

 

[IsmaR]

"Ah, a tricky devil has appeared! #SmashBrosUltimate X #GhostsnGoblins pic.twitter.com/QgJ2YF7Dpr

— Wendel 'Mad Ice King' Rebel (@Mad_Ice_King) March 5, 2021

Feels like this came full circle.

 

[Minix0]

Feel like Ridley wins the Pyra mu, if even by a little. Extremely easy to gimp and has very few tools to keep him out.

Mythra is harder to deal with, but she seems to lack kill power so I don't see that one being hard either.

Yo, eff pyra and mythra. This scrubby ass character kills with a Dair that covers the entire character and a Utilt that kills at like 90% and has twice as big of a hitbox as Ridley's.

What is with the DLC balancing?

To be fair she's also stupidly slow. You can full on fsmash her after a lot of her strongest moves.

 

[meleebrawler]

"Ah, a tricky devil has appeared! #SmashBrosUltimate X #GhostsnGoblins pic.twitter.com/QgJ2YF7Dpr

— Wendel 'Mad Ice King' Rebel (@Mad_Ice_King) March 5, 2021

Feels like this came full circle.

Mark my words, there will be a Ridley/Firebrand team-up if a Nintendo vs. Capcom crossover happens.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Imagine too if there was ever another Demon's Crest game for Firebrand. Seriously, one of the best non-Nintendo games on Switch SNES.

Pyra/Mythra have some moves/setups that are bonkers, but overall are pretty average imo. Let me know how you guys fair with the known top tiers after their recent nerfing.

 

[meleebrawler]

Imagine too if there was ever another Demon's Crest game for Firebrand. Seriously, one of the best non-Nintendo games on Switch SNES.

Pyra/Mythra have some moves/setups that are bonkers, but overall are pretty average imo. Let me know how you guys fair with the known top tiers after their recent nerfing.

When it comes down to it, if you can handle characters like Roy, Chrom or Lucina with Ridley, you shouldn't do too badly against the Aegis either.

 

[Minix0]

Hot take but Ridley just might be +1 or .5 against Min Min.

Edgeguarding her is stupidly easy, getting in isn't too tough if you camp in the air, and Min Min doesn't have much that keeps Ridley in shield.

Not to mention his recovery straight invalidates her two framing, so he gets back for free.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Hot take but Ridley just might be +1 or .5 against Min Min.

Edgeguarding her is stupidly easy, getting in isn't too tough if you camp in the air, and Min Min doesn't have much that keeps Ridley in shield.

Not to mention his recovery straight invalidates her two framing, so he gets back for free.

Maybe...

Back to kill confirms for a minute, just remembered one for Rid that I completely forgot about while we were on the subject, and that is reverse or rar nair into dash attack, at near 100% around the edge of stage. You can also use plasma breath as the setup for dash attack killing, but the late hit nair methods is faster. Said nair into fsmash could also work on the big bodies, I suppose.

 

[Minix0]

Maybe...

Back to kill confirms for a minute, just remembered one for Rid that I completely forgot about while we were on the subject, and that is reverse or rar nair into dash attack, at near 100% around the edge of stage. You can also use plasma breath as the setup for dash attack killing, but the late hit nair methods is faster. Said nair into fsmash could also work on the big bodies, I suppose.

Ohh. Is it true tho?

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Ohh. Is it true tho?

Yes, or at least should be far as I know. The back hit of nair puts them into momentary stun without launching them too far, allowing you to quickly dash attack which kills at high %.

Aside from starting with irar/ac nair or running rar nair, you can also get momentum by just dashing toward the opponent, turning around, and nair while moving forward to land the back hit. There's also dash forward, turn around and shorthop while drifting forward, and then press A as a fakeout for early momentum (be sure to let go of left stick before pressing A so you don't accidentally input a b-air). You can even do it as an out of shield option by facing away from opponent, holding shield, and nair while drifting toward them. Any way you do it, you'll want to do forward and the same direction on C-stick after to make the following dash attack come out instantly.

 

[Minix0]

Yes, or at least should be far as I know. The back hit of nair puts them into momentary stun without launching them too far, allowing you to quickly dash attack which kills at high %.

Lol I'm def using that

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Was brought to my attention with how OP Mythra’s foresight ability is and how grabs is the only kind of attack it doesn’t counter, is a good thing Ridley has side B.

Pyra’s fsmash feels a bit overtuned too (seeming unusually powerful for the kind of speed and range it has which is almost as fast as Ridley’s fsmash), but thankfully they have bad recovery. Not sure if this will be patched amongst the patches the girls will likely get, but whenever Pyra uses up B to get on stage, running into her and pushing her off the edge will put her in freefall and kill her. lol

 

[Minix0]

Was brought to my attention with how OP Mythra’s foresight ability is and how grabs is the only kind of attack it doesn’t counter, is a good thing Ridley has side B.

Pyra’s fsmash feels a bit overtuned too (seeming unusually powerful for the kind of speed and range it has which is almost as fast as Ridley’s fsmash), but thankfully they have bad recovery. Not sure if this will be patched amongst the patches the girls will likely get, but whenever Pyra uses up B to get on stage, running into her and pushing her off the edge will put her in freefall and kill her. lol

Yeah I've played them with my Ridley and I really don't see them being a big deal. Their recovery is super exploitable and Pyra is pretty slow. Its at least an even mu.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Yeah I've played them with my Ridley and I really don't see them being a big deal. Their recovery is super exploitable and Pyra is pretty slow. Its at least an even mu.

Quite so. Apparently skewer works out of shield against Mythra’s photon edge if they end up in the right spacing at the end of the move, so I guess side B is also possible, which you’ll want to do anyway to get around foresight as pointed out. Wing Blitz forward also trades with photon edge, which is a good way to catch them so if in a situation where they have to recover horizontal to ledge.

And if you block the first hit of Pyra’s neutral B, you can jump out of it and punish. Not too surprising I guess with how slow she is, but still good to know too.

 

[Minix0]

Quite so. Apparently skewer works out of shield against Mythra’s photon edge if they end up in the right spacing at the end of the move, so I guess side B is also possible, which you’ll want to do anyway to get around foresight as pointed out. Wing Blitz forward also trades with photon edge, which is a good way to catch them so if in a situation where they have to recover horizontal to ledge.

And if you block the first hit of Pyra’s neutral B, you can jump out of it and punish. Not too surprising I guess with how slow she is, but still good to know too.

The fact you can skewer that move out of shield will never stop being hilarious to me

 

[Ridley_Prime]

The fact you can skewer that move out of shield will never stop being hilarious to me

Apparently their rabid jabs hit from too far away and thus can’t skewer punish them like with most others’ jabs, so I guess we needed at least that against her.