Social Lower Norfair

Ridley_Prime

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The Ridley demonstrated part is at 6:12, but the whole invincibility frames from grabbing a ledge from above in general appears to be a universal mechanic (with the exception of tether recoveries), but this finding is huge for Ridley particularly, with his disadvantage state being known for what it is, so now if you do this (whether through wing blitzing past the ledge before grabbing or just grabbing ledge from above with an extra jump), he can't get two framed anymore during ledge getup.

Theoretically anyway. Suppose this needs to be labbed to be certain, but am confident that's the case.

edit: Saw a lab result, and this is the lowest you can be while having the invincible frames via the wing blitz method, so... pretty good I guess.

EZY_rCbUMAECBcM.png
 
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Ridley_Prime

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image0.jpg


Just realized it was never posted here before, but this meme will forever be perfectly relevant when it comes to Ridley sometimes still being rated/considered low tier without any of his strengths being acknowledged or brought up. Thank you whoever made it.
 

Dalek_Kolt

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Some slick logos.
 

Cosmic77

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Some slick logos.
That Ridley logo would be a really cool sticker to put on stuff.

PicsArt_06-11-02.02.48.png
 

Ridley_Prime

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Anyone test out Ridley's Skewer buff? Is it easier to hit or just more damage or both?
Just more damage. Went from like 50 to 66% on its own.

But it got gutted setup wise... Unless this is a bug. It better be.


He lost skewer tech chases on platforms following d-throw too if this is intentional. The theory is that they wanted to remove skewer infinites for team doubles, but this got hit in the crossfire.

Oh, I guess this also makes a lot of the combos from the recent Vreyvus skewer tutorial null and void too now. This is bad.
 
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Awww man no zoom in?! It can't be!

And that doesn't mean no skewer tech chases at all right?

edit: Maybe I'm misunderstanding but I just did a one on one and landed a Skewer with the zoom in affect fully intact. phew...
 
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Ridley_Prime

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Awww man no zoom in?! It can't be!

And that doesn't mean no skewer tech chases at all right?

edit: Maybe I'm misunderstanding but I just did a one on one and landed a Skewer with the zoom in affect fully intact. phew...
A stray skewer on its own will work like normal with the zoom in, but one that happens after d-throw is where you'll notice the change.

Jury's still out on what all we can and can't do with skewer now. Just needs to be labbed all over again (see how it clanks or interacts with certain character moves and command grabs and such), but here's an analysis that shows what's known so far.


It really is bittersweet. I was excited at first seeing the buffed damage output for our down special, but then seeing the tradeoff, what we lost whether intentional or not...
 

Ridley_Prime

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Unfortunate how things come full circle sometimes, though I guess it teaches not to go for d-throw > down B anymore under any circumstance, and to be fair, the Ridley in that clip made a mistake with the panic d-air (will that move of his ever be improved/fixed?) which led to him getting punished hard.

Bayo was lowkey able to do this to Ridley before the new buffs, but now it's like the evil is back, although not elevated to her Smash 4 self, but still; kinda feels as though his pre-release sacrifice against her was in vain and back to square one now in a sense. Pretty sure too that aerial up B combo of hers has become inescapable for us even with DI's considered, much as I hoped otherwise at first.

On the bright side, further labbing showed that up throw > skewer on platforms and the other usual setups and tech chases that don't involve down throw still work, so is not all bad. While I still don't quite agree with the tradeoff, we're still rewarded now more than ever for a raw skewer hit thanks to the new damage output. Ridley just lost one gimmicky noob killing combo in doing so, but nothing to lose sleep over I guess with all his other still viable options.

With the other major character buffs (not just Bayo), I wonder if these now once again tougher matchups will make him fall further in rankings, leading to him having to get significant buffs again, or if he'll remain in mostly the same spot in terms of wins/losses and not get buffs.

edit: Could've worded that last part better initially, but also needed to share this.


He can now act 6 frames faster for a skewer followup apparently; did not know this before. Okay, this is actually a rather decent trade then.
 
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Ridley_Prime

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https://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/49877

Nintendo updated the patch notes for the Ridley part to include the d-throw hitgrab change... It's not a bug.

So I guess for anyone who hasn't seen yet, I labbed out d-tilt > skewer versus everyone as an alternative, which I posted in the Match Analyses and Tips/Discussion thread here.

The change with d-throw > skewer is a feature we'll have to deal with regardless of if it's a good change or not, and will have to adapt and just make other skewer setups and alternatives the new normal. I've made my peace with it.
 

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Oof.....

Yeah honestly it's not so much Ridley not being buffed (or, meaningfully buffed) that hurts.

It's seeing a giant wall of buffs to tons of characters that are well above Ridley's place in the meta, along with zero nerfs to characters that are really frustrating to fight against.

When you see half the cast get buffed, it just feels like you got nerfed anyways. Power creep is getting steep.
 

Ridley_Prime

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A lot of the ones who were buffed this patch were lower tiers like Kirby or just underused, but I get ya. At least Diddy Kong's banana peel infinite is no more, tho he got buffs too to compensate.

The more I learn and realize what can be done with the new skewer though, the more I feel better about it and its uses despite the loss of the old dthrow combo for it. Another case of Sakurai giveth and Sakurai take away like with the Diddy example.
 

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I've always relied mostly on reads and spacing out other attacks when going for Skewer, so the change isn't that big of a deal for me. It's understandable from a dev standpoint to want to prevent some of the bullyish team combos, but on the other hand I understand it can be frustrating for players to have something they've practiced go to waste.

I do wonder if we'll see any more Ridley buffs in the future. Seeing Incineroar get reduced startup on side-b makes me wish for the same for Ridley. I'd also want them to add a little splash hitbox when landing with d-air as Ridley's wings touch the ground.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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I think Ridley will get some more buffs.

We got at least five more patches.
 

Ridley_Prime

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And if they can give K. Rool his significant need of more belly armor health, they can give Ridley more weight.

But whatever happens, happens I guess as far as buffs.
 

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I'm pretty skeptical that Ridley's weight will be buffed, since it's pretty clearly by design that he's relatively fragile for his size. Mewtwo did get a minor weight buff in an earlier patch, but more often than not they tend to double down on a character's strengths with buffs instead of fixing glaring deficiencies in their design. The recent Incineroar buffs is a perfect example of this, they simply made him better at what he was already good at, rather than helping his really poor mobility, which is the actual reason he struggles. This method is nice in that it preserves the identity of the character, but at the same time it does mean that characters which struggle because of their underlying design are likely going to continue doing so for the rest of the game.

Ridley luckily doesn't have it as difficult in that regard as the more extreme cases, such as Little Mac, Dr. Mario and Incineroar, so it's not as big of a deal in his case, and he's already doing better than those characters anyways. It would be really nice with weight and air speed/acceleration buffs though, because it does feel like Ridley is on the brink of being a genuinely great character, he just needs a little bit of help on those fronts.
 
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Ridley_Prime

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I'm pretty skeptical that Ridley's weight will be buffed, since it's pretty clearly by design that he's relatively fragile for his size. Mewtwo did get a minor weight buff in an earlier patch, but more often than not they tend to double down on a character's strengths with buffs instead of fixing glaring deficiencies in their design. The recent Incineroar buffs is a perfect example of this, they simply made him better at what he was already good at, rather than helping his really poor mobility, which is the actual reason he struggles. This method is nice in that it preserves the identity of the character, but at the same time it does mean that characters which struggle because of their underlying design are likely going to continue doing so for the rest of the game.

Ridley luckily doesn't have it as difficult in that regard as the more extreme cases, such as Little Mac, Dr. Mario and Incineroar, so it's not as big of a deal in his case, and he's already doing better than those characters anyways. It would be really nice with weight and air speed/acceleration buffs though, because it does feel like Ridley is on the brink of being a genuinely great character, he just needs a little bit of help on those fronts.
Fair point. Even with his weight and should it not ever be increased, his good recovery (often misconceived as bad because of people or non-mains not knowing how it works for him) and excellent DI makes an experienced Ridley still hard to kill.

Because of the general philosophy for buffs with Ultimate as pointed out (them mainly improving what a character is already good at rather than fixing what's weak in their design), I've started doubting that Ridley's d-air will ever be buffed/fixed at this point to where it's a reliable landing move for him on stage or something (shame). He'll likely have some of his other decent moves made a little stronger (more or less what 4.0 gave him) if he gets anymore buffs. Maybe his f-tilt, f-smash, or something. I mean we just had skewer buffed by a few %'s which was the last thing any of us were expecting, even if it was merely done as compensation for the loss of the d-throw > down-B noob combo which doesn't really affect his viability in the grand scheme of things.
 
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It is too bad that Down Air isn't very useful on the ground but does anyone else use it off stage? Against most of the cast I find it to be absolutely essential to Ridley play.

Also if Skewer counts as a grab does it go through counters now?
 
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It is too bad that Down Air isn't very useful on the ground but does anyone else use it off stage? Against most of the cast I find it to be absolutely essential to Ridley play.

Also if Skewer counts as a grab does it go through counters now?
I use full hop -> d-air pretty often as an edgeguard when the opponent's recovering low. You get just enough time to jump and up-b back to the ledge, at least on Final Destination.

PKBeats just did a video where he showed that the new Skewer doesn't actually beat Wonderwing, so I'd expect the same goes for counters. Dunno if anyone's gone through the files yet to confirm anything, but he speculated it wasn't actually made into a grab but given a unique property just to prevent some team shenanigans.
 

Ridley_Prime

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Oh, skewer tipper apparently does a bit more shield stun and damage on shield now too. Guess it’s not too surprising with the minor damage buff, but still.

Not a game changer but not insignificant either far as potential shield pressuring goes. Skewer does like a tilt attack’s worth of damage on shield now at least, but considering the opponent would likely have their shield up a good few seconds or so before when they’re looking to wait and block our down B, their shield might be even more diminished afterward. Imagine too if you bombard an opponent with charged plasma breath which they shield most of, and then during their shield stun you try to land a skewer... Wonder if it’d break shield at that point.

Always did seem odd before for skewer to be a non-threat in terms shield damage regardless, tho can see why they didn’t make the move a particularly potent shield breaker, but this increase is at least something to live with, knowing it now.
 
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