Low Tier Hero's

[TheLake]

Mow your post about love was golden

everything else was like...pointless

basicly to sum up what your saying

"This character is bad and if you win it doesnt count because the good character could have played better" lol?

I dont think i even have to elaborate why your last 2 or 3 posts are completely irrelivent

and tai you havent kicked nearly enough pepole if you think zelda is boring

 

[Divinokage]

Punching and stomping is far better.

 

[Green Ranger]

I play DK because he is the character I have the most fun with.

And because he has sick *** combos and hes cheap and broken as ****

 

[ZetTroxX]

I got your point Umbreon but still I beg to differ.

i play zelda personally. but zelda is a flawed character.i accept that at any point that my opponent could simply choose to play correctly and it would make my life much harder.

You really think it´s THAT easy? If I lose to a worse char I simply choose to outplay him?I think this point of view is way too theoretical - like I said - If it was that easy we´d all just play Fox ditos all day all night long. But we don´t.

/what TheLake said

@ KingFunk: Thanks dude. Hope you gonna have a nice time @ Vienna. Are you guys going to play Smash64 too?

 

[TheLake]

Punching and stomping is far better.

SHE SAID

amiright fellalhs ;D

*offers the high five*

 

[ElloEddy]

with all this being said /advice given .... come apex i shall find all of you guys ....and give you a sample of the future best ylink player melee has ever seen :D

(goes into hyperbolic time chamber)

 

[ZetTroxX]

Practise like crazy. A random Fox Main appeared in Germany a year ago - beating Ice´ highscores @ techskillchallenges and stuff...He stats he practised countless hours within just a few months. You gotta be extraordinary if you wanna create something big. /motivatioal speech off

 

[King Funk]

Umbreon's arguments are so abstract that they are borderline absurd.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

This thread is great

2 Falco mains lecturing a Zelda main on how he could beat high level players if he just tried harder and played better

lol

 

[Biglard]

Lake's hand is still up there because no one high fived him, and I like him because his Zelda is a beast, so high five.

 

[Divinokage]

I only give fist bumps or hugs though..

 

[Massive]

I just want to point out the matchup issues in the Ice vs Hack video.

Kirby vs. Marth is actually not that bad of a matchup, additionally Hack got stages which are actually decent for kirby (smallish, with platforms). Ice started winning handily when he switched to FD and Fox (which is probably kirby's worst matchup/stage).

Having a substantial amount of experience with Kirby (my ghetto secondary) has led me to believe that he is not nearly as terrible as he appears. One could make a pretty convincing argument that he's probably tied with zelda in terms of viability, he is just so underrepresented that his tier placement is lowsy from lack of data.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

kirby is a soft counter to ganondorf, guiz.

 

[Divinokage]

Well it certainly can be 30-70 or 40-60 for Kirby..

 

[rpotts]

I just want to point out the matchup issues in the Ice vs Hack video.

Kirby vs. Marth is actually not that bad of a matchup, additionally Hack got stages which are actually decent for kirby (smallish, with platforms). Ice started winning handily when he switched to FD and Fox (which is probably kirby's worst matchup/stage).

Having a substantial amount of experience with Kirby (my ghetto secondary) has led me to believe that he is not nearly as terrible as he appears. One could make a pretty convincing argument that he's probably tied with zelda in terms of viability, he is just so underrepresented that his tier placement is lowsy from lack of data.

I can vouch for this man's Kirby, but only his grey one. It gives me bad feels.

Spoiler

as if he had any other colors to counterpick with :O

 

[Kimimaru]

The problem with low tiers is that those characters are fundamentally flawed. If the non-flawed characters want to exploit them, they can do so with freely without retaliation.

Every character in the game is flawed in some way and there are no exceptions. Also despite what most think, some low tiers can handle the tricks that high tiers have.

It really is about ice playing terrible- if he was doing what he was supposed to, kirby can't do anything back. it has nothing to do with how well hack played, the character simply doesn't have the tools.

In a competitive game like Melee, player skill easily has the biggest influence on the outcome of a match, not the character. You can have one player who plays a high tier and knows how to deal with Pichu yet still have the Pichu player win if he can outplay his opponent. This is not the case for the match above, but Ice didn't know how to deal with Kirby at first so he lost, and Hack played it smart because and managed to take some games off him.

Most of the time there are counters to common tactics, but low tiers are barely explored so we don't know all of them yet.

 

[Signia]

I type in color's because I'm special

also bold text for first paragraph FOR EMPASIS

EMPHASIS

 

[Deleted member]

edit: aaron is completely right.

 

[Strong Badam]

This thread is great

2 Falco mains lecturing a Zelda main on how he could beat high level players if he just tried harder and played better

lol

****ing falco mains man

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Favoriate low tier hero. Something ....crazyguy

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

This is the best oversimplified way to look at it.

The outcome of the match is determined by "win points". Your total number of win points is determined by the following formula:

Win points = Skill points + character skill points + character matchup points

Each player has an intrinsic amount of skill points. It also has an extrinsic amount of character skill points for each individual character (some characters share CSPs).

When fighting specific matchups, a character may obtain bonus CMPs.

For instance, Case 1

-Scythe has 2 SPs and he picks Mewtwo for whom he has 3 CSPs.

-Ethycs, who has 2 SPs and picks Marth for whom he has 1 SP. However, Marth gains 3 CMPs against Mewtwo.

So Scythe has a total of 5 WPs, while Ethycs has a total of 6 WPs. Therefore Ethycs wins.


Case 2

-Manwent has 10 SPs, and picks Kirby for whom he has 1 CSP.

-Ethycs has 2 SPs, and he picks Fox for whom he has 2 CSPs. Fox gains 3 CMPs against Kirby.

Manwent has a totalo f 11 WPs, while Ethycs has a total of 7 WPs. So Manwent wins anyway.



Lol none of this matters. I have finals to study for.

 

[ZetTroxX]

Having a substantial amount of experience with Kirby (my ghetto secondary) has led me to believe that he is not nearly as terrible as he appears. One could make a pretty convincing argument that he's probably tied with zelda in terms of viability, he is just so underrepresented that his tier placement is lowsy from lack of data.

I like your posts. <3

 

[TheLake]

Lake's hand is still up there because no one high fived him, and I like him because his Zelda is a beast, so high five.

MY MAN

If I see you in person you get a hug and my unyielding respect for all time

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think low tiers mostly suffer from bad macro games. But most of them have potentially ridiculous micro games that can be really pushed to a high degree. It's just tough and pioneering things is hard. Losing to Sheik's d-throw, Falco's dair & laser & shine, and Fox's dash dance grab > u-throw > aerial is also disheartening because macro games are lame.

 

[ElloEddy]

I think low tiers mostly suffer from bad macro games. But most of them have potentially ridiculous micro games that can be really pushed to a high degree. It's just tough and pioneering things is hard. Losing to Sheik's d-throw, Falco's dair & laser & shine, and Fox's dash dance grab > u-throw > aerial is also disheartening because macro games are lame.

lol well said ....but imma just work on combo n smash di so these high tier things are less effective ..sadly noone plays these characters around me ...=/

 

[Kimimaru]

Losing to Sheik's d-throw, Falco's dair & laser & shine, and Fox's dash dance grab > u-throw > aerial is also disheartening because macro games are lame.

Most players and every character has trouble dealing with these techniques though (considering they were already executed), not just low tiers. If you're saying that most low tiers don't have comparable tactics then disregard this post.

 

[KrazyKnux]

Here's another piece of advice that, to be honest, is really parallel to my previous advice: small stuff counts. That is, get good at stuff most players don't get good at. Things like powershielding, mashing to escape grabs, shield DI, shield dropping (as i mentioned earlier) and that kind of thing. Higher-tier characters can get by without a lot of that stuff, and that's where you can get an advantage.

imo

 

[Strong Badam]

Kimimaru: They "lose" to those tactics, not just are affected by them.

 

[Kimimaru]

And high tiers don't? Sheik can do D-throw -> anything on Peach, techchase characters with it, and much more. Falco's pillaring works on almost every character in the game barring really light floaties, and Fox's U-throw -> U-air kills Jigglypuff at like 75% and works on most of the cast. If you're already in a combo, throw, etc. then I don't know what high tiers can do that low tiers can't since everyone can DI/SDI stuff.

 

[Deleted member]

David Adam these guys are right. There's no difference for low tiers.

 

[Strong Badam]

Revising the tier list immediately. Low tiers no longer low tier, they don't lose to good strategy any harder than top tier.

 

[Signia]

Lol you guys are just doing a bad job explaining what makes characters low tier. Micro/macro? Really KK? That doesn't even make any sense using starcraft terms to mean who knows what for smash for any person that's not you, let alone this noob.

Then he calls you guys out and SB/Umb responds with some passive-aggressive sarcasm bs? Cmon now.

Low tiers are low not simply because of matchups, those matchups are bad because low tiers suck (fox/falco's speed and pressure works on everyone... but not everyone can **** them for minor errors). Top tier stuff works on almost everybody. Low tiers just tend to have horrible recovery, ****ty grabs, bad mobility, situational kill-moves, and/or difficulty doing damage safely.

 

[Deleted member]

Lol you guys are just doing a bad job explaining what makes characters low tier. Micro/macro? Really KK? That doesn't even make any sense using starcraft terms to mean who knows what for smash for any person that's not you, let alone this noob.

Then he calls you guys out and SB/Umb responds with some passive-aggressive sarcasm bs? Cmon now.

If the audience is not interested in the message, why are we posting? Aaron was completely right to say that my posts were irrelevant, not because of the message but because of the audience. David, Adam, and myself already understand this stuff, we're posting to other people that are not us in the attempt to exchange ideas. If you guys don't like my posts...I don't have to post. Neither does David or Adam. We do it for you guys, and if you don't like like it you can do what we all did and spend a few thousand hours figuring out the game yourself.

A lot of what makes characters good or bad in this game is only relative to other characters and is best explained with an intuitive sense of knowledge that is neither factual nor direct. It is just not easy to translate into words.

Micro and macro are not starcraft terms, they are general terms that starcraft happened to pick up.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Micro/macro? Really KK? That doesn't even make any sense using starcraft terms to mean who knows what for smash for any person that's not you, let alone this noob.

 

[Kimimaru]

Low tiers are low not simply because of matchups, those matchups are bad because low tiers suck (fox/falco's speed and pressure works on everyone... but not everyone can **** them for minor errors). Top tier stuff works on almost everybody. Low tiers just tend to have horrible recovery, ****ty grabs, bad mobility, situational kill-moves, and/or difficulty doing damage safely.

I am aware why most low tiers are considered low tier. What made no sense to me was when they said that low tiers lose to the aforementioned tactics and high tiers didn't although those tactics are clearly used all the time in high level play against high tiers, and some of which suffer even more from them (Ex. Fox getting comboed even harder by Falco's pillaring than say Pichu). When I got those responses I decided not to bother because all I do is ask questions and expect answers, not drama or sarcastic remarks.

 

[Thoraxe]

I play luigi because I have the most fun playing the slippery *******. Play whichever characters you enjoy playing, regardless of tier, because this game is about having fun. If you play a bunch and focus primarily on 1-3 characters, you can learn to play competitively with just about any character. I wish you luck with young link, may the jiggly puff MU be forever in your favor.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Getting some good use out of that Wobbles gif arent we Mooney

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

i don't think wobbles has ever been to japan

that's not a wobbles gif

(but yes)

 

[standardtoaster]

I have no idea where that gif is from. :<

 

[Svetsunov]

i don't think wobbles has ever been to japan

that's not a wobbles gif

(but yes)

wobblessmash.gif