Low Tier City- PREREG IS UP! Link in 2nd Post! July 27th-28th Grapevine, Tx

[Nkguy01]

Quick off-topic question.

Does anyone mind custom music, japanese voices, and Melee SFX? I'm not sure if anyone would consider it distracting.

Secret bosses are free, btw.

Melee sound fax are 2 good.

 

[BlinkIV]

Sure, Strawhat. bo3 or bo5?

 

[Fuzzyness]

I can't wait to watch all the mario party salt looool

EDIT: Jolteon you should go to this

I don't think I can, lol.

- Jolteon

 

[Strong Badam]

alex





please

 

[DMG]

JOLTEON PLZ USE THUNDERMCJOLTNING

 

[Fuzzyness]

Well we're in san diego atm and texas is quite a drive away, would cost too much to get there, then get back to Vegas afterwards. It also doesn't help that our flight is on the 29th. A 19 hour drive to get back to Vegas after grand finals are done the day before? :/

- Jolteon

 

[Deleted member]

Sorry that you can't come Jolteon, never met you before, but I'd like to see you here anyways!

 

[DallasPhat]

I think you mean "Making him proud"

Make me proud oh young trolls. May the remembrance of me make your smack talk oh so more memorable and hurtful to those who hear your roar.

 

[Leaf.]

Where would be the best place to get housed at? I have maybe 2 people coming with me, staying Friday and Saturday night (Leaving early sunday though.)

 

[Strawhat09]

Sure, Strawhat. bo3 or bo5?

bo5 sounds good

 

[DMG]

Ok so I have questions. I see the updated OP with the stage groups, but I don't see a starter stage list. Wat is it?

Also for bans, if I ban a group, does that exclude me from picking in that group? Like if I ban the group BF is in, but want to CP BF later. Does my opponent also have to ban that group to stop me?

 

[Oracle]

starter stage list is the normal 7 (bottom row of the stage select). Basically you get one group ban per set, but no matter what group your opponent picks you get a stage ban out of it. So if game 2 you go to group 2,i ban a stage and then you want to go to group 3 for the next game, I still get another stage ban in that group, but I don't get to chaange my original group ban. You can pick a group that you banned earlier just like how you can pick a banned stage that you banner earlier in the set (in most rulesets)

@leaf: you could probablly stay at sethlon's place if you can drive up there (its in frisco, contact him for the details)

 

[Oro?!]

Let's say I want to go to battlefield, but no other stage in that group. If BF gets banned, do I still have to pick from that group because I announced that group?

 

[Strong Badam]

the group system is always awful. makes too many assumptions about why people choose certain stages. there are too many variables that make stages similar to each other for counterpicking purposes to accurately group them.

 

[DMG]

I'm not a fan of it because it gives the banning player a ton of leeway on what he gets to ban, and because it runs counterproductive to the original intent (at least I assumed, from what has been argued in the past) of allowing more stages. If I'm afraid some guy is going to pick a janky stage like Port Town or Castle Siege, when I ban that group I also remove the "legit" stage BF. If we assume that every stage listed is competitively viable, we don't need a group system to let it flourish: we're banning too many stages in the process of looking for diversity. If two people are playing, assuming they aren't also picking from the groups they ban, you are removing half of the stages + 1 stage in each picked group. So basically 12 stages in a full 2/3 set, plus DSR restriction.

Personally I love the group system IF these 20 stages were going to be used regardless, because I get more banning power to hopefully avoid anything janky. With just 1-3 regular stage bans, chances are some x stage would slip through and now I get to see why Strong Bad practiced 4 weeks on Skyloft playing Jigglypuff: TAG edition.

I am OK with whatever stage system is being used, but I do honestly believe if we have 20 perfectly fine stages, nothing janky nothing overly campy or big or hampering, then use a regular system with maybe more than 1-2 stage bans and let the stage diversity flourish. Alternatively, give people the option to disregard the groupings and ban 2-3 individual stages period. Better yet would be removing anything suspect, I'm doubtful that these 20 are perfect but that's obviously up for debate.

 

[Oracle]

Let's say I want to go to battlefield, but no other stage in that group. If BF gets banned, do I still have to pick from that group because I announced that group?

yes

sb: imo groups is the only good way to have a lot of stages legal, and lots of legal stages=more depth=rewards better players for having more game knowledge. the platforming aspect of smash is what sets it apart from other fighters, and i think this aspect of the game should be focused on more to emphasize being versatile and being able to control and move around differing stage types. sorry if you want to just take everyone to the exact same stage to dd camp into dash grab or w/e

dmg: i see what you're saying but giving a good deal of control over the stages is pretty necessary because of the huge diversity meaning that some matchups are probably gonna be skewed a little heavier based on stages. this is pretty prevalent on the 'front page minus a few' rulesets, where fox basically gets a free win every time he loses a set because rumble falls, ps2, and ps1 are all basically the same stage for his purposes of run away and get early upsmash kills. the same can be said for certain floaty characters with bigger stages like dl64, castlevania, and skyworld. having the stages in a group saves the trouble of eliminating all of the 'free win' types of scenarios.

as for the classification, the reason i chose size/blastzone is because I feel thats the most relevant to why you would want to go to a stage. typically a character gets benefitted either by small or big stages(do i want space to run around or no space to prevent my opponent from doing so), as well as by small or big blastzones (do i want to survive for a long time and rely on gimps or prevent my opponent from surviving). With every possible combo of stage size and blastzones, you get to eliminate your opponent's ideal sceneario, where both aspects of the stage benefit him, and force him to make the decision of which he needs the most help with: stage control or getting kills. The ban one stage inside the group is essentially because the groups aren't perfect, and never will be with such a ridiculously versatile stagelist.

 

[DMG]

Except the group system, as it will be implemented, bans more stages than individual players could with regular bans. That doesn't promote stage diversity: we're trying to hide somewhat janky or unloved stages mixed in with legit stages so that they get in more instead of everyone and their grandma banning the same lame stages everytime. If we make group banning and picking impact the game in a larger and more arbitrary way than regular bans, I don't see that as a positive. For the person that is getting to CP, they are forced to be pidgeonholed into drawn up groups that may or may not even make sense for the character/person/mu expectations.

With 20 stages, if they are all legit and worth of being in competitive play, why can't I pick from any of them sans the regular bans my opponent gets? Why do we need groups to foster or coax people into picking different stages?

 

[Oracle]

I answered that question in the edit

 

[Deleted member]

Theres so many stages and the rules are complicated for newer players along with letting tons of crappy stages into the rules, I want to abandon the group system and just have bottom row of the first page be starters, everything else is a counterpick except for skyworld, norfair, stadium 1, and maybe SSE Jungle (It got better in 2.6)

 

[Strong Badam]

That's hardly relevant. You bring up an issue that my stagelist was designed specifically to combat; stage redundancy. Why do we allow 4 stages that accomplish the same thing: Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams, Metal Cavern, and WarioWare? Or Skyloft, Dreamland, and Rumble Falls? The inclusion of all of these stages offers little depth over the alternative of including one or two of them, and only serves to complicate the stage selection process which is already more complicated than we'd like. Likewise, you state that your stagelist rewards better players for having more game knowledge, yet you have so many similar stages that players are rewarded multiple times over for having one set of familiarity. Yoshi's Story, Dreamland, Battlefield are all tri-plat stages, who differ only in slight differences in placement and blastzones (and randall in the case of YS).

The thing is I tried in 2012 to run stagelists that banned the least amount of stages as possible, and it didn't really work. As I stated earlier, the group system makes far too many assumptions on what stages people want to ban and why. What if I'm banning Group 3 not because the stages are small (in this hypothetical example, I prefer small stages over large stages), but because it has 3 stages with walls and it's most efficient for me to ban that group against e.g. Ike, Mario, or Lucario who benefit greatly while recovering from walls? You even have a group with "aka fox stages," yet Draculas Castle, Dreamland 64, and YI:B are nowhere to be found on it. :/ Not only that, but for situations where it DOES work, it dumbs down the stage banning process to where the player is rewarded for only knowing one or two of the stages he wants to ban, rather than all of them. This detracts from depth in an obvious way.

To be honest I can't even believe stages like Kongo Jungle 64/Delfino Plaza/Port Town are legal. They weren't listed as Legal when I ordered my bus tickets, either, or I definitely wouldn't be attending this tournament. Very disappointed in this stage list for what will likely be the second biggest PM tournament. The only saving grace is that Pokemon Stadium 1 isn't legal.

I submit to you: because of the issues I have brought up in this post and many more, your stagelist tests a skillset that is more shallow than that of my own, or even more common ones that run a 3-ban system.

Regardless, I'll be taking all of Texas' money at this. Feeling mostly better from the sickness I've had the past 4 days, let's hope it lasts.

 

[Oro?!]

Not all stages in the same grouping are created similar. You should be able to hear what group they ban, SPECULATE on a group that has a potential stage or 2, and then decide if you want to pick from there. Why should I get locked into a group after hearing their group ban, only to find the only stages available in that group now benefit my opponent. **** is lame that there are multiple layers of bans. This system is unnecessarily complicated for minor depth addition. It's not really worth it especially if you can potentially put yourself in a terrible situation after choosing a group.

 

[KOkingpin]

SB you talk about taking Texas' Money but what Happens when TN comes and takes your's?

Also I prefer 3-4 bans over whole row.

 

[DMG]

That's something I didn't even consider. This is really short notice for people travelling. Now I'm entirely in favor of reverting it back to the prior stage list/system.

 

[Deleted member]

The fact that we have to make such large posts discussing this makes me want to just have a regular system, the one I already suggested

 

[Dakpo]

10 dollar mm xeven

Can I MM all the Falcons :D

 

[DMG]

Yes you can

 

[Oracle]

none of these arguments really work; i've heard them all before and responded to them all before. the only reason to ever ban something from a game is if it breaks the game or makes it uncompetitive; same logic goes with stages. None of my stages nor my ruleset do that. more stages to play on=more depth=more skill. i'm not gonna bother wasting my time taking apart your arguments because the one fair point that has been brought up is that i just put on the group ruleset a few days ago, which is indeed unfair to oos players and kind of invalidates the whole debate. That was my mistake; I had been hosting tournaments in texas with the LTC ruleset, and most of the people from the area already knew what I was doing (these groups have been in this state for months), so I forgot that I had used the front page ruleset as a placeholder. I apologize for all of the confusion I caused

The final ruleset will be the following

1. bottom row is neutral stages, strike in 1-2-2-1 to decide which stage to play on for the first round
2. Legal counterpick stages will be the front row, minus ps1 and norfair, plus lylat and delfino. Winning player gets four bans.
3. Winner picks character
4. Loser picks character
5. Repeat until set is finished
Gentleman's clause: any stage may be played on if both players agree to it
Modified Modified DSR: no stage may be played on more than once per set

I'll update the OP soon, and probably release a codeset that has lylat and delfino on the front page over ps1 and norfair to simplify things a bit. Did I miss anything?

 

[Oro?!]

I don't care that they get more bans when there are that many stages after striking a row. I care that you become locked in to that group and they choose the bans after you pick the group.

 

[Deleted member]

Oracle, if you're going to release a codset that has the legal stages on the front, should I update my SSS to have textures for the different stages?

 

[Oracle]

well oro that basically comes down to an opinion on whether or not you think the groups are homogenized enough, which isn't really arguable because its an opinion. i see your point, though

 

[Strong Badam]

thx for changing the stagelist, this is much more agreeable.

 

[Oro?!]

Yeah stage groups matter in that situation and it's all opinion, but you could also just say 1 ban from every group as well before the person who gets to counterpick selects a group.

 

[DallasPhat]

Alright, I'm going to show up a bit just to make people cry. It isn't a tournament until dphat makes some random cry.

 

[Deleted member]

I'll be your first random. lol

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Registered and stuff, I'm riding with Ko if that hasn't already been made clear....man this tourney is looking stacked lol.

 

[Deleted member]

Don't worry, the rookies will arise on the 27th.

 

[Rat]

The final ruleset will be the following

2. Legal counterpick stages will be the front row, minus ps1 and norfair, plus lylat and delfino. Winning player

Yesssss. Delfino plaza's my all time favorite stage NA.

You'all better be ready to go to da beach.

 

[Dr Drew the Dragon]

Suggestion: Make all of top 8 best of 5.

They're getting their own day so why not?

 

[Deleted member]

Yesssss. Delfino plaza's my all time favorite stage NA.

You'all better be ready to go to da beach.

Goddamn, I love Delfino Beach.

 

[Deleted member]

There is nothing in Super Mario Sunshine called Delfino Beach. There's Bianco Hills, Ricco Harbor, Pinna Park, Gelato Beach, Pianta Village, Sirena Beach, Noki Bay, Delfino Airstrip, Delfino Plaza, and Corona Mountain.