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Little mac top tier?

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Shuckle89

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I don't think he will high tier, let alone top. His ground game may be extremely good (man, have you seen it? It's just ridiculous. Fastest in the game, gap-closers, super armor on a lot of moves and high damage) but because his aerial game sucks badly, he will be easily outplayed by good players. Anyone who can avoid ground game and force him into the air will have an easy kill. But, we don't know yet. Perhaps his ground game is so good that even those who force him into the air can't do enough then to make up for his ground play.
 

X WaNtEd X

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The K.O. meter lasts for about 12 seconds before it resets if it isn't used.
well that pretty much solidifies him as worse character i think. his potential was all based around this. it's super quick, can be comboed into and will kill starting at the lower mid %s. that sounds like a slightly worse rest to me.

but with only 12 seconds, your opponent can just run away and you can't reliably use it in time. that's such a huge drawback to this character. i'm putting him in the lower mids.
 

shinhed-echi

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well that pretty much solidifies him as worse character i think. his potential was all based around this. it's super quick, can be comboed into and will kill starting at the lower mid %s. that sounds like a slightly worse rest to me.

but with only 12 seconds, your opponent can just run away and you can't reliably use it in time. that's such a huge drawback to this character. i'm putting him in the lower mids.
I agree this throws a huge monkey wrench into his best move.
However, the hitbox of this move is pretty dang wide. It's not the same as rest which needs more precise aiming/timing to land.

And let's not forget Little Mac is almost Sonic-fast on the ground. Non floaty opponents will be easier prey to this move.

Besides, maybe it can work in our favor if we manage to make our opponents scared of us for 12 seconds. :D
But yeah, I see what you mean.
 

X WaNtEd X

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Besides, maybe it can work in our favor if we manage to make our opponents scared of us for 12 seconds. :D
while that move can actually just straight up hit people in the neutral game and can't be as easily punished as rest, a move like rest would be so much better to have. smash is a game where punishment is the biggest factor when comparing players and characters. having the ability to reliably kill someone off of a single hit, grab, etc. is huge. you'd have to reliably get that opening in a 12 second window to make this work. because you have to get hit enough to get the ko meter up, you're most likely going to get it in neutral, so that means you need to win neutral within 12 seconds and only after a certain threshold of percents for this to work. if i saw a lil mac with the meter, i'd just camp until it ran out.
 

Kazuhira Nishijo

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I'm really looking forward to using him and how he is placed in the meta. Sure his Arial capability is as good as a brick in space but in the right hands that may never be an issue.
 

TTTTTsd

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Little Mac's weaker aerials might work as both an achilles heel and an actual tool. Low knockback aerials means combos are a lot easier, so perhaps they're combo starters/combo implements, more than standard aerials? Just food for thought.
 

Tino

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Well, let's see here...
He fights like a real boxing champ while on the ground, something I'm really looking forward to.
His areal punches isn't really that much of a threat to anyone.
His recovery is just horrible (I thought Link's recovery was bad) and he seems to fall like a rock, something those playing against Little Mac will certainly take advantage of.

It's hard to say either way though I doubt he'll be top tier, but who knows. Doesn't really make much of a difference to me cuz it isn't gonna stop me from playing as him.
 

Takehiko

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I just want to say this real quick. Most of what peoples options that they're forming on Lil Mac are still based on the point of a character that still is in it's early metagame development.

He's a new character, so he's not going to play like how everyone else either does or did. Another thing to remember is that it all depends on what happens when people start working on step up, combos, etc. We never know. Lil Mac could end up top tier cause some one might find a way to make him good and make people all swallow their words.

Lastly, I notice that a lost of these predictions come from what the pros have said. The thing to remember about that is everyone who's focused on only trying to win tourney's aren't going to work with a character who's not 1st day broken. Notice how many people are riding villager harder than he rides that Gyro.

I think he has potential and am waiting till the end of this year to see how things pan out.
 

L9999

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Being real, Lil' Mac comes with an awful air game in a game where every single character approaches using aerials and throw people in the air. He has horrible matchups against basically everybody on the roster not called Bowser, DK, Dedede, and Ganon. Has terrible recovery, 64 LINK BAD, and has so few options of approach and attack. Sheik, Shulk, ZSS, and Jiggly torture Mac with no mercy. No way Mac is top tier. I may be wrong, and it's too early, but things look bad to Mac.
 
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Gawain

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A lot of the people claiming knowledge about his matchups and tiers right now are fools. There's literally no way to know this information right now. The only things you can be objective about are his movesets. In past Smash games he'd be awful, but I think his ground approach will be a lot more usable in this game, as ground capabilities are a lot more important this time around. Furthermore, he can blastzone at far lower percentages than a lot of the cast. This is going to be really important in this game I feel, unless people find new aggressive, and safer, methods of offstage ledge guarding. My point is, you can't make a call on his placement this early, and talking about "tiers" this early is just nonsense in the first place.
 

Venks

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First off I'd like to point out the KO Punch actually lasts forever. Until you use it or get hit by the opponent a short while after obtaining it. This is amazing and actually makes it really good. Little Mac is one of the few characters in the game that can potentially take out two stocks back to back.

Also everyone talking about how bad his aerials are and that he'll 'lose when forced into the air'... he never has to go into the air. In a game full of short hop aerial approaches Little Mac excels until his opponents realize they can't keep doing that. Little Mac's super armor on up smash makes it a really bad move to hit him from above. Little Mac's up smash is his highest damage dealing attack, most reliable to KO with, and is his fastest smash attack. Little Mac's up smash recovers crazy fast so it's hard to punish even on whiff.

It's also worth noting that Little Mac isn't easy to grab. A lot of grabs in this game are shield grabs off of blocked aerials. Little Mac doesn't use aerials so he's safe there. Little Mac is also safe on block with proper positioning of his forward smash because it pushes the opponent away and recovers pretty fast, though it doesn't activate as fast as his other attacks. Still fast though.

Here's a super poor quality video of me playing and showing some of things I'm talking about:

 
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Virum

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Little Mac's up smash is his highest damage dealing attack, most reliable to KO with, and is his fastest smash attack. Little Mac's up smash recovers crazy fast so it's hard to punish even on whiff.
Quick correction here. His low angled FSmash is his highest damage move (barring KO Punch of course) dealing 23% minimum (as opposed to sweetspot USmash dealing 20% minimum). Though good stuff on the video and analysis.
 

NeroRevolver

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I do not plan on using Lil Mac much aside from my dumbass cosplay I did. But I've noticed his KO punch can be dash cancelled into. So I can deaf see it be used for ballsy reads and quick punishes.

I dont think people are realizing how much the c-stick is actually going to benefit Lil Mac once it becomes an available option.
I feel that dash dancing would of given Lil Mac an extremely strong way on entry, more so than his already fast ground approaches.

Considering Mac can easily get opponents to 40-60% with a few chains I cant be the only one who realizes that his B-air causes SOME knock back. Of course hes pretty horrible in the air, but his B-air still causes some knock back so he at least has THAT as an option.

As for placement on the tier list, no one wont know til about next year. Seriously though, In a game thats mostly reliant with edge chasing and stuff, all someone has to do is bait mac towards the edge, grab and do any air normal that causes knock back and its essentially GG's for him.

Good Luck to you guys looking forward to him though, you got your work cut out for you. Make Doc proud.
 

Venks

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Quick correction here. His low angled FSmash is his highest damage move (barring KO Punch of course) dealing 23% minimum (as opposed to sweetspot USmash dealing 20% minimum). Though good stuff on the video and analysis.
Thanks for the correction! I really don't use the angled smashes enough. I constantly forget they are a thing. My Little Mac still has so much training to do.
 

ksizl4life

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Pretty sure his down angled f smash is also safe on block. It pushes them in their shield real far. and leaves them close enough for f tilt if you connect. pretty sick stuff.

also i didnt know KO punch lasted forever. I played the E3 demo a lot, and when you got hit, it wouldnt go away but it only lasted 13 seconds. Final build threw that all away and now if you get hti, you lose it but it lasts forever.

I just played like 6 hours straight at D1s stream with D1 Tenryo and Dark Pch. heres the vod http://www.twitch.tv/d1mx/b/569142898

I never lost a set when I used Mac, stream loved it haha. I play for the first hour and a half of the video. then we went out to eat and i came back later on. Then I played 3 sets with them in the last half hour. Anytime you see the KelVindictive tag, thats me. Hope you guys can find it useful or fun to watch ^^
 

Sonovin

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Finally found someone who actually uses Little Mac's counters effectively.
I was seen a lot of videos and was thinking why don't they try using the counter when they are hit/thrown off.
 

ZaoMonichi

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Finally found someone who actually uses Little Mac's counters effectively.
I was seen a lot of videos and was thinking why don't they try using the counter when they are hit/thrown off.
The counter has tons of end lag, so unless you are sure they will hit you or you will be able to recover after the counter, you shouldn't use it.

Also, Little Mac has avoidance and low knockback Nair air game that can be capitalized on if used correctly.
 

ndayday

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In a lot of cases when people try to edgeguard the haymaker using counter is actually VERY nice since it kind of boosts Mac towards the stage.
 

ZaoMonichi

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In a lot of cases when people try to edgeguard the haymaker using counter is actually VERY nice since it kind of boosts Mac towards the stage.
Like I said, it depends on how much you know the person you're playing. If you know they'll attempt to edgeguard, go ahead and counter, but otherwise you should go for a haymaker or move close for an up b. Your position also matters.
 

Severn

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I wouldn't say so. His ground game is fantastic, very good speed and power. But that doesn't make up for his aerial game like people say. It's just way too bad. Anyone who knows what they're doing can easily gimp him, and when that happens its game over.
 

DMG

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I think it's funny that people are predicting he will be bad due to his airgame. Some of the best performing characters atm are ones with solid ground games (Sheik, Mac, Diddy). Being one of those characters, instead of an aerial god like Wario or Jiggs, is much more preferable. Make no mistake: being a ground bully like Mac is huge for his viability. His bad air game/recovery are basically balance weights to stop him from being the first banned Smash char LOL
 

ZaoMonichi

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I think it's funny that people are predicting he will be bad due to his airgame. Some of the best performing characters atm are ones with solid ground games (Sheik, Mac, Diddy). Being one of those characters, instead of an aerial god like Wario or Jiggs, is much more preferable. Make no mistake: being a ground bully like Mac is huge for his viability. His bad air game/recovery are basically balance weights to stop him from being the first banned Smash char LOL

You seem to forget that characters that can chase off stage are also god-like, such as Villager, Jiggs, Kirby, MK and especially Bowser Jr.
 

Venks

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I wouldn't say so. His ground game is fantastic, very good speed and power. But that doesn't make up for his aerial game like people say. It's just way too bad. Anyone who knows what they're doing can easily gimp him, and when that happens its game over.
Personally I feel Little Mac would be Top Tier if he had a better recovery. God Tier if he had good aerials. I've been playing this game since it came out in Japan and I can't tell you how amazing he is. I've played against some of the best Melee and Brawl players in Australia in Smash 4 and none of them have been able to consistently beat my Little Mac. Not that I don't lose matches as well, I definitely do, but I think going back and forth against a vast number of characters at high level play goes to show that he is well balanced.

Little Mac can be gimped pretty easily by a good player, but at the same time Little Mac is one of the few characters that can get two KOs back to back. With Little Mac's KO Punch at his disposal he can end a two stock match in a very short amount of time. Did I mention KO Punch goes through shields and thus can't be blocked?

This is still really early into the game's life and not everyone has the game yet, but thus far he's looking like one of the higher tier characters in this game. Perhaps with time and more acquired knowledge he might end up not as good, but that's not how he stands right now.
 
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Scoob

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From what I've seen so far, Mac is far more than a contender; he seems to easily be top tier. So far, Bwett's Mac has run train on everyone. Mac seems like the most straight-forward character ever, but he's so friggin good. He has super armor on his smashes and specials. That's ****ing broken. Is that enough to make him top tier? Right now, it seems like it. Maybe it's just the underdeveloped metagame, but he easily seems to be a top 5 character. Approach him from the air? He'll eat the hit and up smash you, which deals over 20% and kills at 95%. His jab does more than 20%. He can mash counter while getting jabbed. It's a little silly.
 

rabbit.soaring

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EDIT: Response to Wariofan1

I dunno about that. It's not like Metaknight has the massive disadvantage on the ground Mac has in the air. I feel like Meta'd be at an advantage just because he doesn't hate fighting anywhere in particular. Good aerial game and passable ground game > Amazing ground game. Mac's bad air game means Meta would never have much trouble recovering, whereas Mac would probably die every time he left the stage.
 
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Diamond Octobot

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Given his awesome ground control, I can easily see him countering opponents coming from the air witv an U-tilt/ U-smash/Up-B and dealing huge damage and knockback (I'd have to test it by myself through).
 

McX

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The problem with little mac is that he feels no fear. Throw a warlock punch or charged fsmash at him and he'll just charge in and eat it up. Little mac basically has no trouble no matter how aggressive he is playing, because of all his super armor.
Basically, unless you're good with grabs and air combos, little mac is going to screw you over.
 

Falchy

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his terrible recovery and lack of any aerial game whatsoever keeps him from being top tier (just sakurais way of making sure he isnt TOO good)
he'll get wrecked by good gimpers (mk, zs samus, sheik, etc.)
but his insane ground game and ko meter do make up for it, i guess he'll be near the top of mid tier? just my opinion
 

Une

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The problem with little mac is that he feels no fear. Throw a warlock punch or charged fsmash at him and he'll just charge in and eat it up. Little mac basically has no trouble no matter how aggressive he is playing, because of all his super armor.
Basically, unless you're good with grabs and air combos, little mac is going to screw you over.
He feels no fear except when gets tossed into the air.............that's a pretty big weakness.
 

Venks

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Bwett was killing it during a tournament this week as little mac. It was amazing.
He showed some cool stuff, but we should learn from his mistakes and be aware of the lack of knowledge on his opponent's part as well. One example being that down-throw in up/down-smash isn't as solid as it looked. The opponent can DI/VI out of the way, but not all of them did so at first. Secondly Bwett SD'd by using an aerial counter. You've got to be careful when an opponent is attacking you from off stage. Countering an attack like that is a sure-fire way to throw yourself into a position where you can't recover.

The KO Punch is not something you just want to throw out with reads. There are two really solid ways to land it. One is off of block. If an opponent uses an attack you would normally shield-grab on block you can KO Punch instead. Perfect for punishing dash attacks or improperly spaced aerials.
The second solid way to land the KO Punch is via down-tilt. At low to mid percents down-tilt combos into KO Punch. To get the down tilt just play safe and space well with forward tilts. Eventually you'll get an opening off of a roll or empty land/aerial dodge into the ground. Your opponent has to stay mobile because the KO Punch is unblockable.

I'm sure we all saw how he was wrecked by Sheik. Bwett was getting destroyed by Sheik's tilts and grabs that would lead to gimps off stage. For starters Little Mac should be out ranging these attacks with his forward tilt. Unfortunately Bwett was on the defensive most of the match and when he wasn't he was tossing out side-smashes and getting punished for it.
In a match-up like this I feel it is important to stick to quicker smash attacks like up-smash and down-smash, though ideally spacing forward tilts is the best answer. If you HAVE to use side-smash then you should be using the down-tilted version against a grounded opponent. The down-tilted version deals the most shield damage so if properly combined with forward tilt shield pressure you can easily destroy your opponent's shield in a just a few hits.

The last thing I'd like to point out about this match-up is that Sheik shouldn't be that safe when approaching from the air. With proper placement and timing Little Mac should always win trades against an aerial opponent who attacks with their limbs.
When Sheik uses nAir or fAir Little Mac can absorb it with super armor and punish the attack with one of his smashes. Down-smash is actually rather good in this regard because it brings Little Mac really low to the ground and makes it more difficult for the opponent's aerial to land, but at the same time Little Mac's attack has really good wide range if you're not exactly sure where the opponent is going to land. Though it is worth nothing up-smash accomplishes the same goal, but with less horizontal range and more power.

Little Mac vs Villager. I'm sure how often we saw that Villager regrab the ledge and get punished for it. That Villager was good, but not playing Smash 4 correctly. Anyways there's a lot Bwett did wrong here.
First off Bwett was not aggressive enough and lets Villager set up shop too easily. With proper placement and timing Little Mac's dash attack can go through Villager's gyroid as it's deployed and hit Villager. This is the ideal way to get past this move. Bwett kept countering the gyroid but at a distance that kept Villager safe and able to punish Little Mac.
Heck Little Mac can destroy the gyroid with his forward-tilt with good positioning and that is a fast attack that allows Little Mac to react to Villager's approach.

When Villager is on the ledge and decides to jump up and use a fAir, this is not safe for Villager. Bwett got hit a lot here and didn't punish this option. The correct response is Slip Counter. Little Mac takes the projectile hit and moves forward to swing at Villager. Continually punishing this option forces Villager to choose less safe options.
If Villager rides the gyroid back onto the stage DO NOT BLOCK IT. Villager does not go into helpless if he hits something with the rocket. Jump over it or dodge out of the way. Then follow after Villager and punish him when he jumps off the rocket. That landing has lag and is easily punished with a slightly charged up smash.

Little Mac's jabs do not work the same on every character. Some characters will still have the feet on the ground and can act while being hit due to how incredibly low hit-stun the attacks deal. Sheik shielded mid-jab and from experience I know Bowser can perform ANY action during the multi-hit jabs. Against these characters you want to stick with the standard one-two-three jabs unless you hit them while they are in the air.
 
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WaveDashCash

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MAC-XIMUM POWER! I would be VERY SURPRISED if this guy isn't at least CLOSE to top tier. Horrendous air game aside, his ability to shrug off a lot of weaker attacks is incredible!!! Some people used to say that he was the least original character ever: But he's just a boxer and he's so tiny!

NAY I say to them. Little Mac has so much potential. I cannot wait to get some play time with that moveset.
 
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