Little mac top tier?

[Louie G.]

It'd be fun to see the king of the ground vs the king of the air in a top tier duel. Aka, Little Mac vs Meta Knight.

Oh I'm sorry, I thought you meant Ridley.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Oh I'm sorry, I thought you meant Ridley.

Meta Knight is already top tier, which is why I mentioned him. However, it'd be even better with Little Mac vs Ridley now that I think of it, since they're complete contradictions of each other both in terms of fighting style and size.

 

[Z1GMA]

No offense, but I hate these type of threads.
"Will x be Top Tier?"

Just wait til the game comes out, bro.

 

[ZexM]

No projectiles. Not even one stupid projectile. I know that may sound ridiculous, but with exception of meta knight every top tier character has at least one in order to put some space in between, rack up damage, gimp recoveries, ect. Fox Falco, Shiek, Olimar, Diddy, Ice Climbers to name some of the most notable. Characters like Marth, Roy and DK, for example. Marth failed to dominate the top tier spectrum except in popularity because he lacks a projectile and because of that makes him more prone to fall victim to them. Marth, Roy and DK also do not have and moves that propel them to improve their mobility. Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf and Ike are only that much better because they have specials that give them a bit more mobility and strategic placement. Little Mack looks fast, heavily melee based like Skeik, which is never a bad thing, but without a projectile his mobility will suffer, he will fall victim to other characters projectiles (not being able to even cancel some of them) and he'll have difficulty spacing nicely against other characters as he'll be zoned away. Looks like fun to play though. Guess you'll just have to play twice as hard with Little Mac to that sweet, satisfying kill!

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Funny you mention projectiles when most of the trailer was dedicated to demonstrating how little of f*** Mac gives about them.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Keep in mind that the games are still in development, so there is always the possibility that properties of attacks will be adjusted to prevent over centralization.

 

[ToothiestAura]

All the characters need to look OP in their trailers.
Oh Megaman has so many projectiles, OP!
Villager can absorb preojectiles, OP!
WFT has super big hitboxes, OP!
Rosalina can do a lot of combos with Luma, OP!
etc.

This. You're not gonna make characters look ****ty in their reveal trailer. They want hype, so they show them all being amazing.

 

[Tepig2000]

Well, Little Mac has a OHKO move.

Dang.

So does Roy.

 

[yoonb]

So does Roy.

True, but I'm speculating that the charge will build up every time you take damage in the neutral B animation (which I believe is the move shown to be used against Villager in the trailer). It'll see a lot more usability if it's the way I predict it to be.

But we don't know much about it yet so we'll have to see.

 

[deadjames]

Why is it that every new character revealed is speculated to be top tier? There's no way predict how the meta is going to play out. That being said Mac looks like he's going to be an incredibly fun, unique, and well-designed character.

 

[Sonicguy726]

Can we stop this, every character has been called top tier by this point, the trailer is supposed to make them look good. I think his air game and recovery will greatly hold him back

 

[IsmaR]

Prior to you bumping this, they did stop.

And that's the idea. Make everyone broken/usable so that no one is top tier.

 

[The Teleporter]

Its way to early to tell... With that said I would put my money on it. Lil Mac = Beast Mode

 

[Ividboy]

There is something that I have noticed about mac that might be helpful to the discussion so here goes. So at 1:12 in the little mac trailer he runs into the ring and jumps in with his side special that he uses in the air.
This can probably be used as a horizontal recovery option since it makes him fly through the air. I have figured out roughly how much distance this covers with this picture. The side B starts up when he's over the rope showed by his glowing hand and the smoke cloud generated(In this picture it is the red arrow). He then flies through the air and lands with his back foot planted on the outer ring of the WVBA symbol on the ring(The blue arrow). The green line shows how far little mac travels with his side b. I looks like it is approximately 2 times as wide as DDD in this picture. It still doesn't look like a good recovery( It looks like Captain Falcon's raptor boost with better momentum) it does give him better recovery options with a decent horizontal recovery. Looking back on this I could have used the part where he goes through the charge shot but it seems to go way farther there(maybe because he is running) Yay for horizontal recovery!

 

[solitonmedic]

Looking back on this I could have used the part where he goes through the charge shot but it seems to go way farther there(maybe because he is running) Yay for horizontal recovery!

If it can be used as a meteor smash, hooly crap! Instant main!

 

[Road Death Wheel]

One cannot properly determine the tier of a character without weighing them against all characters, that being said, I don't honestly believe Little Mac to be top tier. Most top tier characters are versatile with a plethora of tools. Mac doesn't have many overt tools, he is just a really great rush-down character.

well to be honest meta knight just sword sword sword sword sword and got highest tier no range or anything.

His attacks may offer invincibility frames, but opponents can simply just grab Little Mac to bypass the frames. Little Mac may be a close combat character, but coping with those who possess lethal grab games may prove to be his downfall.

mac dose not have invincibility he has super armor if hes attacking and u attack him hes still gunna hit you how are you gunna grab someone outa a jab or uptilt? ( i know it can happen but its not east and there no delay in his stacks that suggest such opportunity.)

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Shield-grabbing. The Brawl CPU was quite infamous for that.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

mac dose not have invincibility he has super armor if hes attacking and u attack him hes still gunna hit you how are you gunna grab someone outa a jab or uptilt? ( i know it can happen but its not east and there no delay in his stacks that suggest such opportunity.)

You haven't played much PM Bowser, have you?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Shield-grabbing. The Brawl CPU was quite infamous for that.

First i must apologize for my horrid spelling since i just noticed it now. And yeah brawl cpu's were infamous for reacting to thing most people can't.


And yeah i played PM bowser but his attacks are slow and have delay where little mac's don't LOOK like they are slow. i can't say for sure though.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Most attacks don't have an advantage on block. Even in Melee, where there was L-Cancelling, few characters had aerials fast enough that they would recover from landing lag before the blocking character recovered from shield stun. To balance this out, there is shield pushback and spacing, so that not every block leads to a grab for the blocker. This isn't very technical or complicated, it's just simple rock-paper-scissors that has existed since N64 (Well, N64 had Z-Cancelling, so every aerial was safe on block. But Sakurai fixed that.) Mac loses to characters with long grab ranges unless his attacks recover so absurdly fast he doesn't even need super armor and is completely borked. This includes Marth, DK, Bowser, hopefully Rosalina (if they don't give her a good grab range, what even is the point of the Luma?), perhaps Link if they speed up his tether grab, same with Samus, etc. If the Mac's spacing is sloppy, he will be block -> grab -> Combo, probably, since he is a fastfaller and fast-fallers are combo food.

 

[Ryan.]

Hmm, not sure. I think he may be pretty high on the tier list but not the top because of his aerials.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Most attacks don't have an advantage on block. Even in Melee, where there was L-Cancelling, few characters had aerials fast enough that they would recover from landing lag before the blocking character recovered from shield stun. To balance this out, there is shield pushback and spacing, so that not every block leads to a grab for the blocker. This isn't very technical or complicated, it's just simple rock-paper-scissors that has existed since N64 (Well, N64 had Z-Cancelling, so every aerial was safe on block. But Sakurai fixed that.) Mac loses to characters with long grab ranges unless his attacks recover so absurdly fast he doesn't even need super armor and is completely borked. This includes Marth, DK, Bowser, hopefully Rosalina (if they don't give her a good grab range, what even is the point of the Luma?), perhaps Link if they speed up his tether grab, same with Samus, etc. If the Mac's spacing is sloppy, he will be block -> grab -> Combo, probably, since he is a fastfaller and fast-fallers are combo food.

Yeah shield punishing can occur to everybody though. But on the topic i wonder how macs grabs will be with the mix of his speed and attacks seeing a grab might not come easy.

Hmm, not sure. I think he may be pretty high on the tier list but not the top because of his aerials.

wont know till we play the game areials might be crap for all we know

 

[Ryan.]

wont know till we play the game areials might be crap for all we know

Yeah that's what I'm saying. His aerials are not as good as his attacks from on the ground, based on Sakurai's comments. But yeah we won't know for sure how it will play out until we get to play the actual game, all speculation right now.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Yeah that's what I'm saying. His aerials are not as good as his attacks from on the ground, based on Sakurai's comments. But yeah we won't know for sure how it will play out until we get to play the actual game, all speculation right now.

Yeah in the sense that the game might be more ground orientated.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Most attacks don't have an advantage on block. Even in Melee, where there was L-Cancelling, few characters had aerials fast enough that they would recover from landing lag before the blocking character recovered from shield stun. To balance this out, there is shield pushback and spacing, so that not every block leads to a grab for the blocker. This isn't very technical or complicated, it's just simple rock-paper-scissors that has existed since N64 (Well, N64 had Z-Cancelling, so every aerial was safe on block. But Sakurai fixed that.) Mac loses to characters with long grab ranges unless his attacks recover so absurdly fast he doesn't even need super armor and is completely borked. This includes Marth, DK, Bowser, hopefully Rosalina (if they don't give her a good grab range, what even is the point of the Luma?), perhaps Link if they speed up his tether grab, same with Samus, etc. If the Mac's spacing is sloppy, he will be block -> grab -> Combo, probably, since he is a fastfaller and fast-fallers are combo food.

I do know that Rosalina's grabs seem to be quite fast in execution, so if she blocks any of Little Mac's single hit punches, she may be able to grab him before he has a chance to act.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

You know overall i just hope smash 4 is balanced enough that there is little need for a tier list.

 

[Banjodorf]

It all depends on how potentially crippling his air game is. It seems like that's his major drawback, but if it's only as bad as say, Falco's, then he's still got a shot.

We shall see.

 

[victinivcreate1]

No projectiles. Not even one stupid projectile. I know that may sound ridiculous, but with exception of meta knight every top tier character has at least one in order to put some space in between, rack up damage, gimp recoveries, ect. Fox Falco, Shiek, Olimar, Diddy, Ice Climbers to name some of the most notable. Characters like Marth, Roy and DK, for example. Marth failed to dominate the top tier spectrum except in popularity because he lacks a projectile and because of that makes him more prone to fall victim to them. Marth, Roy and DK also do not have and moves that propel them to improve their mobility. Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf and Ike are only that much better because they have specials that give them a bit more mobility and strategic placement. Little Mack looks fast, heavily melee based like Skeik, which is never a bad thing, but without a projectile his mobility will suffer, he will fall victim to other characters projectiles (not being able to even cancel some of them) and he'll have difficulty spacing nicely against other characters as he'll be zoned away. Looks like fun to play though. Guess you'll just have to play twice as hard with Little Mac to that sweet, satisfying kill!

Marth is 4th in Melee and 5th in brawl. Now forget Melee, Fox, Pheasant (yes I call him pheasant) and Sheik are above Marth for different reasons (Sheik is above him because she gimps like a boss, and she cam avoid up throw follow ups from Marth, while Fox/Pheasant can't). Brawl has SNAKE, FALCO, AND ZSS BELOW MARTH. Snake is the big one especially. He has two landmines, a mortar, a remote control missile, and grenades. 5 different projectiles. Snake DOMINATES the ground with his projectiles. Yet Marth is above the man. And then we have Meta Knight who doesn't even need projectiles. His sword itself IS a projectile. Its transcendent and blows through everything. Projectiles aren't needed to be S-Tier.

 

[Comet7]

so, what happens if little mac gets a chain grab that leads into his ohko move? yes, i am a horrible person does anybody have an idea on how many hits it'll take to fill his meter?

 

[Thor]

Looks like a combination of Melee Falco and Brawl Snake. I'm gonna mess people up hard on the ground. Keep me on terra firma please. Tier speculation seems silly so I'm not gonna guess.

And then he gets Brawl- Ganondorf neutral B (sans fireball but sans reverse OHKO drawback). ...WHY?

Yeah, he has a knockout punch in the games or whatever, but OHKO? Really?

Look out Lucario, there may be a new comeback king in town...

In regards to the other discussion...

Saying one needs projectiles to be top tier is silly - Pikachu and Kirby's projectiles are terrible [you find me a Kirby who can camp with that thing and... I can't even figure out how to finish this thought], and they're top tier (Fox is so high because of those silly 6% lasers though - he'd be lower without them for sure) but go to CF and literally zero projectile (Falcon Kick is not a projectile), and he's still very viable (since's he's almost even with Pika). Maybe 64's the exception though...

Fox's Melee projectile seems trivial in like every non-Jigglypuff/Marth/Samus/ (counter-camping there) / Peach (maybe) MU, but I can't say I'm some Fox MU expert. Also Sheik's projectile is merely a gimping buff (she gimps better for it) and an attempt at 18% on stage or 3% to mess up an opponent's dash-dancing, it doesn't do that much else (and she already gimps well, so...). Falco does love his lasers though. Then there's Marth, Puff, and Peach (who sort of has a projectile, then sometimes has REALLY strong projectiles).

ICs have a crap projectile (I guess it's still usable though), Marth has none, MK is MK, but everyone else in Brawl high-tiers has a projectile, but that may be do to the ability in Brawl to play more defensively since the punishment for a single error is often less high.

Maybe you need a sword (i.e. a lot of disjointed stuff) OR a projectile to be top tier? (Pikachu's uair and Kirby's feet fit the bill... CF wasn't that disjointed though if I remember...) Or maybe Little Mac will break this mold again, as I'm sure many people on this part of the forums would like.

so, what happens if little mac gets a chain grab that leads into his ohko move? yes, i am a horrible person does anybody have an idea on how many hits it'll take to fill his meter?

If you'd kept that thought a secret, no one else thought of it, and then you found one and entered a tournament, you'd mess someone up so bad XD. I'm sure tons of people will look for this, but I'm guessing that since Sakurai has people to help him balance characters now, they'll be on the lookout for shenanigans like this.

 

[Aenglaan]

Lacking at least a passable aerial game is seriously going to hurt his chances. On the ground, he's pretty damn good, but his recovery is abysmal. We'll see...

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Screw chain-grabs (I'm 90% convinced due to him being a boxer, Mac's throws are all terrible/have high KB. They may be decent combo throws but he probably has a crap grab game). This is still a quick OHKO move that can be combo'd into, or used to edgeguard, in good reads, tech chases etc. It's bonkers. The existence of this move alone makes sure Little Mac will be no lower than mid.

 

[Zephil]

Ok we know LMits very weak in the air but did you guys saw 0:41 of this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnOpppsijA0

He actually hits WFT and there was almost no hitstun, we are talking Samus' Brawl's first jab type of hitstun, almost none!

 

[straydoggywog]

I'm actually very doubtful of his mix up options if he's mainly a ground fighter. that gives him, dash attack, f-tilt, f-smash, maybe d-tilt- down smash to approach. Neutral game, hopefully he'll have a good dash dance cause other wise what can he do that doesn't require commitment?

 

[Smash4Life]

M2K said he looked pretty easy to gimp. He even challenged someone to a money match that argued with him as soon as smash 4 would come out.

 

[BBG|Scott-Spain]

M2K said he looked pretty easy to gimp. He even challenged someone to a money match that argued with him as soon as smash 4 would come out.

I would have taken that bet. lol

Anyway, he's not bad. He's going to be okay. No worries.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I have no doubts Mac is easy to gimp.

But so is Melee Fox.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Little Mac seems to be a shield pressure character at this point, but if he gets grabbed, good luck trying to bounce back from defeat.

 

[Z1GMA]

its impossible to tell if hes gonna be top tier before weve played the game, but it sorta looks like he will.

 

[ErictheLone]

I see Mac definitely being of the better characters. He has speed and multiple good kill moves. That seems to be the recipe for success. I don't think his air weakness will hinder him...much. Still, he's not likely to reach Melee fox/falco levels without domination of both the ground and air. I guess it all comes down to just HOW dominant is Mac on the ground. If he is truly insane then his flaws may not be enough to keep him away from the top. That's a big if. We need to see the full roster. If we get characters like Ridley/Balloon Fighter who could conceivably camp in the air the way presumably Mac will camp on the ground things could get very interesting. I didn't mention jigglypuff because although she hangs out in the air a ton she still has to come down to approach. I doubt Mac would have problems with that.