List of Advanced Techniques - Confirmed/Disconfirmed (With sources)

[Crispy4001]

Again, to back myself up here, let's go frame by frame:

These are the frames leading up to Mario's tilt-A. As you should notice in the first two frames, he stands up from the waveland facing right. But on the third frame, he switches directions immediately, due to starting the kick attack. This transitions into the kick animation in next two frames (and more that follow).

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Those images are horrible quality. I can't see anything that is going on. O_O

 

[Crispy4001]

Sorry, best I can do. Blame video compression.

You can make out where the hands and faces are fairly easily.

 

[Pyr0]

In this Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O3Wy5UECAk

Bowser appears to do the "first part" of Fortresshogging.

basicly this confirms Fortresshogging in brawl.

 

[Crispy4001]

Looking back over some of this stuff, I'm not so sure that directional air dodging is confirmed.

Neither the Mario, Link or Yoshi examples convince me that you can make sharp direction changes with it like you could in Melee. The move might have been changed to make it follow your jump trajectory, rather than as a stall.



Any more examples?

 

[Zauron]

That GIF is from the HD verison of the video. I copied each frame by hand.


To me it looks like he's sliding on his belly. His head is always to the right end of his body. That turn around you're talking about looks like it's a part of the forward-tilt, not part of the recovery.

No, he's definitely on his back. Here, look closely - this is a frame-by-frame capture at a higher res.

Going in to the slide from the air - notice he is facing to the left (look at his nose poking out to the left, that's how you can tell).

He hits the ground here, still facing left...

Next frame he's on his back. You can clearly see his nose, mustache, and eyes. He's definitely on his back here.

Couple more frames of him sliding on the ground on his back...

Now he rolls on to his feet, and by the second frame has started to turn to face to the right while getting up.

He's almost in idle on the next frame...

Now, in the next frame, he very suddenly turns around to a completely different pose. This is the jump to a new animation - his forward tilt. He went from a near-idle frame after getting to his feet to suddenly snapping to facing the opposite direction with one foot raised ready to kick.

And the kick...

I don't know what it is, but its clear he slides along on his back, gets up while turning around, and then does a forward tilt. Maybe the whole thing was just a better animated result of him getting hit by Meta Knight's tornado in the frames just before this, with him hitting the ground, sliding a bit, getting up, and attacking immediately (probably the player was mashing the attack button and right, as noobs tend to do, so it snapped to the forward tilt as soon as he was done with his slide and getup animation).

Whatever happened, it looks nothing like a Waveland from Melee, which has the character stay on their feet but crouched for the first few frames.

 

[Crispy4001]

Looks like you're right - he does slide on his back, not his belly. But still, what good reason would there be for that not to be a waveslide? There's no momentum carrying him.


Seems to me like they're acknowledging it by giving all that animation. I suppose there's a possibility it could be a tech ... but in Melee, techs were a sort of roll you were invincible during (characteristically, you flashed during it). Not slides/dashes. It'll be interesting to find out what's really up here.

 

[Crispy4001]

Looking back over some of this stuff, I'm not so sure that directional air dodging is confirmed.

Neither the Mario, Link or Yoshi examples convince me that you can make sharp direction changes with it like you could in Melee. The move might have been changed to make it follow your jump trajectory, rather than as a stall.

Any more examples?

I found this in one of the new videos:

Obviously not an up-B. And the flashing seems to indicate it's Diddy's air dodge. Also looks like it gives him a little bit of a lift. That's good indication that that air dodging is directional, but I'm still not 100% sure.

 

[Zauron]

Looking back over some of this stuff, I'm not so sure that directional air dodging is confirmed.

Neither the Mario, Link or Yoshi examples convince me that you can make sharp direction changes with it like you could in Melee. The move might have been changed to make it follow your jump trajectory, rather than as a stall.



Any more examples?

There's supposedly one of Diddy Kong at 00:42 in the first Meta Knight ship battle video from IGN, however, it doesn't look like an air dodge to me. Its not a normal double jump either though, since Diddy does plenty of those and they look different. But if its an air dodge its weird - it starts with a flash similar to what you see just before many meteor smash animations, and he is blinking yellow instead of white. Maybe its a a B move? He does it also in slow motion at the very end of the second Meta Knight ship battle video when the match ends. Both times he does this he moves upwards when he was previously falling down.

Check it out. What do you think it is?

EDIT: Doh, you posted the clip while I was typing this. Anyway, I'm still not convinced that's an air dodge, it seems weird to have that flash before hand and blinking yellow, when Mario is clearly blinking white when he does his air dodge in the other video. And both times he did it in both videos of that fight it sent him upwards, and he never did it in any other direction nor did the player seem to be competant at dodging. This may not be an air dodge but some kind of B-move for Diddy that gives him a slight boost.

 

[Crispy4001]

Here's a GIF of the slide from your pictures:

 

[Zauron]

Looks like you're right - he does slide on his back, not his belly. But still, what good reason would there be for that not to be a waveslide? There's no momentum carrying him.


Seems to me like they're acknowledging it by giving all that animation. I suppose there's a possibility it could be a tech ... but in Melee, techs were a sort of roll you were invincible during (characteristically, you flashed during it). Not slides/dashes. It'll be interesting to find out what's really up here.

Nah, I don't think its a Tech. Techs have a sparkle effect that plays, a white flash to show invincibility, and a freeze frame at the beginning before the roll. At least in Melee. This looks nothing like a tech to me. Of course it doesn't look like a Waveland to me either (man I'm not sure I could handle wavedashing if it meant every time I did it my character flopped on their back or belly and slid on the ground then got up again - that'd just look dumb). I'm hoping its something else entirely, perhaps a byproduct of the new rumored Havok physics system, and this was all just momentum from the attack from MetaKnight in the few frames before it. Still, it almost looks like a baseball slide, like his dash attack, so it could be some new technique altogether!

I seriously doubt we'd see a Waveland or Wavedash in any of the videos from the media anyway. From what I've seen, the players barely even understand how to block (I was checking for that question about Link doing his Up+B on Sonic and Sonic blocking and not even sliding back at all and have had a hard time finding any other point in any videos where someone actually successfully blocked an attack). I think we'll have to wait for this weekend to really know for sure. But, there are certainly other mysteries. What is this slide thing? And what's that double-forward-roll without turning into an egg or turning to face the other way that Yoshi does in the video I mentioned earlier in this thread? And as for this diddy thing, I still wonder is directional and stationary air-dodging REALLY confirmed, or is the thought that, especially considering you can jump after the dodge, that they just go in the direction of your current momentum?

 

[Salaad]

Looks like he's on his belly..

 

[Zauron]

Looks like he's on his belly..

In the animation it might, but look at the individual frames from my post. In the first one where he's flat, you can clearly see his nose, eyes, and mustache. If he were on his belly you'd only see his hair and hat. He's definitely on his back.

Doesn't matter anyway, either way its not a normal Waveland from Melee, since he wouldn't be on his belly or his back, but on his feet.

 

[Crispy4001]

Whatever it is, there's an animation for it, meaning it's intentional.


Think the most likely scenario is an animation for the Waveland. Doesn't strike me as an attack, tech, or as a transition of momentum from Meta Knight's attack (there was hardly any knockback at all to it).

As for the demo players being able to pull it off, they likely didn't know how. But then again, wavelanding is something beginners can do in Melee without noticing, like a tech. Wavedashing, on the other hand...

 

[ShortFuse]

That's a great find. At first I thought it was a bAir but it's looks like Sakurai has redesigned what we know to be wavelanding. niiiice. that's not all, it looks like mario was whiter (flashing or not) which means invincibility frames... which is only done via air dodging.... hmm. you might not be able to jump out of the new waveland until the animation is over, but that is an incorporation if i've seen one. i think he slides too far for it to be a bAir.

 

[Zauron]

I always thought if wavedashing/wavelanding were left in they'd actually update them to have their own unique animations. I didn't expect it to be sliding on your back though .

 

[Zauron]

So I mentioned this before but no one seems to take much interest if there's isn't an animated .gif involved .

Anyway...what the heck is this?

Its definitely NOT a forward roll - we know from Melee and the update on the Dojo that forward rolls make you turn and face the other way. Plus, there's 2 distinct animations here. And, Yoshi does his dodge roll using his egg (which is seen elsewhere in the same video, so still applies in Brawl). It almost looks like he tripped, but there was nothing to trip over - he was just standing there in idle for a second then did this. Could this manuever be a way to approach a projectile spammer? It does seem to have blinking invincible frames.

 

[NES n00b]

Seems to be a way to roll into an idle position that you can either crawl or roll back up perhaps? I have no idea. lol

 

[Kix]

It looks like his Air Back A did that when he did it near the ground. If this can be cancelled into a move it would work like wavedashing. Maybe different moves give you different traction depending on how close they are to the ground and how far down they are. This would create different situations with a hit box being out and such and mixup up maybe and you could tick grab out of some move where it looks like it is coming out but you land faster.

See I'm thinking that maybe they auto had R cancelling on from watching Link in the demonstration video vs Sonic I think do his down A and recover much faster. I hope this is not the norm or at least you can R cancel even still but they seem to recover too quickly period. Let's see what happens with the final build. This relates to the above paragraph as this "auto-R cancelling" may be causing this mechanic if it is not there normally. So if they change it back this may be a product of the R cancelling.

As for the Yoshi roll maybe it's \\ like a Virtua Fighter crouch dash instead of >> like a normal run. It looks like it flashes to maybe it has slight invicibility. This would obviously have different uses then the normal roll.

Or perhaps Yoshi has unique ground recovery properties? Notice how he was still on his butt after the first roll. Maybe you can wake up then or roll again after knockdown.

 

[Mama]

So I mentioned this before but no one seems to take much interest if there's isn't an animated .gif involved .

Anyway...what the heck is this?

Its definitely NOT a forward roll - we know from Melee and the update on the Dojo that forward rolls make you turn and face the other way. Plus, there's 2 distinct animations here. And, Yoshi does his dodge roll using his egg (which is seen elsewhere in the same video, so still applies in Brawl). It almost looks like he tripped, but there was nothing to trip over - he was just standing there in idle for a second then did this. Could this manuever be a way to approach a projectile spammer? It does seem to have blinking invincible frames.

Maybe it really is some sort of new evasive maneuver. The one with Mario might be teching but in a direction. Imagine, you get hit by an attack (like someones combo starter) and you tech it but instead of simply staying in the same spot now you can slide when you tech. The one with Yoshi is puzzling though seeing as if he were standing idle and then did that the second roll is something yet to be seen.

Seems to be a way to roll into an idle position that you can either crawl or roll back up perhaps? I have no idea. lol

I think that actually might be it. Going into the crawl through a roll is demonstrated by Snake in the Nov. Smash vid go check it out. The first roll must be going into the crouch. He's sitting though which must be how he looks when he's not crawling. The second roll must be standing up. I think thats got to be what Yoshi is doing. I can't wait to see what we can do with this.

 

[Zauron]

It looks like his Air Back A did that when he did it near the ground. If this can be cancelled into a move it would work like wavedashing. Maybe different moves give you different traction depending on how close they are to the ground and how far down they are. This would create different situations with a hit box being out and such and mixup up maybe and you could tick grab out of some move where it looks like it is coming out but you land faster.

Oh yeah, you've definitely solved it. Look at the first 2 frames from my post with all the pictures about this move - the ones before he hits the ground. Now on an HD video, pause and frame advance the first 2 frames of Mario's BAir (he does it earlier in the same video, and a few times on the MetaKnight ship level). They are the same animation! Its definitely a BAir that he started just before landing!

In fact, his new BAir, as you can see by frame advancing in an HD video, has him mostly on his back facing up during the animation. It starts with him turning and facing the other way, like in the first 2 frames from my earlier post, then he stretches his legs out while facing up for the rest of the BAir. Then he ends it by completing the spin ending facing to the right - just like at the end of the slide before the FTilt, except done in mid-air.

I don't have the time to take snapshots right now, but its pretty obvious if you have a video player that can pause and frame advance.

It all lines up perfectly. This was a landed BAir, and the new physics system with Mario's fairly low traction and likely the player holding left made him slide on the ground when he landed during it, then he did an FTilt. There was no dodging here (which, now that I think about it, should have been obvious because the first 2 frames while he was in the air were not part of Mario's dodge animation, and now we know they are part of his BAir).

 

[Crispy4001]

Looks like you're right. Here's some GIFs to support that:

Makes me wonder, what would happen if you L-Canceled that (if you even could L-Cancel)?

 

[Crispy4001]

Hmmm....

 

[-Katsuta]

Whoah! The physics just got CRAZY.

.. Such deep animation for a ground collision. ;Q

 

[Dynamism]

Hmmm....

YES!!!!!!!!

Edit: Where's that wid with Yoshi and Pit?

 

[Zauron]

Hmmm....

Yeah I noticed that one the other day. Along with the Sonic one, I concluded that everyone can now grab ledges when they are facing away from them now. Guess that means Mario's edgeguarding is a lot less effective, and the game is just that much more noob friendly.

 

[Dynamism]

kinda lame,
Where is that Pit and Yoshi in Smashville vid? Anyone have a link for me? It's not on the "all vids here"thread.

 

[Crispy4001]

It's in the Gamespot interview video.

 

[cccck]

you know I was thinking... let's just say for now that their is no Wavedashing in brawl (I don't care my self) how would some one prove it? make a video of some one *not* wavedashing? really?

 

[Zauron]

you know I was thinking... let's just say for now that their is no Wavedashing in brawl (I don't care my self) how would some one prove it? make a video of some one *not* wavedashing? really?

That's easy. Wavedashing is just Wavelanding before you've really left the ground. Just have someone do a mid-air dodge with a lot of horizontal movement in it close to the ground, and record what happens when it hits the ground. Do they slide in the direction they were dodging, or do they just stop, or go into some new animation just for this one situation? If they don't slide along the ground in the direction they were dodging, then Wavelanding doesn't work, which means Wavedashing doesn't work.

Now, if Wavelanding DOES work, the only way Wavedashing woud not is if there is some time limit after you jump before you can air dodge, to prevent you immediately air-dodging back in to the ground. I can't think of any way to prove there is such a time limit. It seems unlikely they'd leave Wavelanding in and add this time limit just to get rid of Wavedashing, when it would also make it harder for noobs to defend themselves quickly at the beginning of a jump. I'm pretty sure the "slide when air-dodging into the ground" mechanic that is the basis of Wavelanding/Wavedashing has been entirely removed, changed to do something else, or is the same as it was before.

 

[MunkyMan33]

maybe yoshi just jumped the other way (or up-b since we don't know what kind of boost it gives) and did the instant ledge grab thing we saw link due in the middle of his up-b. as long as I still can cape foxes all day as they fall helplessly in the post up-b animation.

 

[Dynamism]

Actually, in that vid (thanks for the link ) Yoshi does use UpB in the air leading up to a drop-thru platform. It's like the ICs UpB without Nana, but a little further. It works.

And I prefer the mechanics of the attacks causing the sliding motion rather than the dodges. WD removed is fine, but that would be a good way to keep the concept of it in the game. And that is an advanced technique if I ever saw one. Trying to apply that with every move at the right situations. I like it.

Yoshi sure is floaty o_O
I think his Dsmash is a little slow now though.

Stoked for the vids coming this weekend

 

[Zauron]

maybe yoshi just jumped the other way (or up-b since we don't know what kind of boost it gives) and did the instant ledge grab thing we saw link due in the middle of his up-b. as long as I still can cape foxes all day as they fall helplessly in the post up-b animation.

That still raises a question - how did he do that? He was in the blinking free-fall state that, at least in Melee and it seems in Brawl, means you can't do any other moves, and will just fall helplessly to your death. So either you can grab ledges from behind you (which we've seen another video of already) or you can double-jump/Up+b while in the helpless free-fall state (or both). I tend to believe in this case its a matter of being able to grab the ledge behind you.

 

[cccck]

That's easy. Wavedashing is just Wavelanding before you've really left the ground. Just have someone do a mid-air dodge with a lot of horizontal movement in it close to the ground, and record what happens when it hits the ground. Do they slide in the direction they were dodging, or do they just stop, or go into some new animation just for this one situation? If they don't slide along the ground in the direction they were dodging, then Wavelanding doesn't work, which means Wavedashing doesn't work.

Now, if Wavelanding DOES work, the only way Wavedashing woud not is if there is some time limit after you jump before you can air dodge, to prevent you immediately air-dodging back in to the ground. I can't think of any way to prove there is such a time limit. It seems unlikely they'd leave Wavelanding in and add this time limit just to get rid of Wavedashing, when it would also make it harder for noobs to defend themselves quickly at the beginning of a jump. I'm pretty sure the "slide when air-dodging into the ground" mechanic that is the basis of Wavelanding/Wavedashing has been entirely removed, changed to do something else, or is the same as it was before.

oh ok thanks, I was just wondering. because other wise we would have all kinds of chaos

 

[Radial]

I still can't find any good shots of shielding or powershielding. I thought I caught another instance of sonic shielding and not getting pushed back, but the quality of the vid is so low I can't be sure. Now that the wavelanding thing has been settled maybe we can focus our attention to figuring out my little shield issue.

 

[Zauron]

I could not find anything in any videos that showed a clear blocking of an attack either. The closest was Bowser blocking and spot-dodging in the MetaKnight stage videos, but there was a lot going on and I couldn't tell for sure if he was pushed back. I did spend a while looking for block examples though. Its a shame these players don't seem to know how to block at all. Sorry .

 

[Wyvern]

I'm pretty sure someone said this earlier in the thread, but the first post hasn't been changed to reflect it, so here goes: I don't think we've ever seen a directional airdodge. It's pretty obvious from the videos that you keep your momentum during/after an airdodge. And every time an airdodge has occurred, the character has moved in the direction they were already moving (even Mario clearly does a double jump before his dodge). Therefore, directional airdodging may no longer be possible, and all airdodges have no effect on your movement.

Of course, the fact that neutral airdodges cause you to move along with your previous inertia doesn't necessarily mean that directional airdodges can't still exist, but they're far from "confirmed".

 

[Zauron]

Hmm, I suppose that is the second way they could have Wavelanding and not Wavedashing - you could only Waveland in the direction you were already moving, and if you tried to Wavedash, you'd just dodge UP instead of back into the ground. They may have figured that they'd nerf the air dodge to get rid of Wavedashing, but to counter that change, they made regular dodges a lot faster (check out Pit's back dodge in that interview video - WOW), added other defense and offense options, and made it so you can double-jump after the air-dodge so its useful in a new way even though it was nerfed in the old way.

Very suspicious.

I hope this isn't true - I'd rather if they wanted to remove wavedashing, just make air-dodging into the ground not make you slide, or go directly into a dodge roll animation, rather than nerfing directional air-dodging .

 

[Wyvern]

I'd say the new version of airdodges look a lot more useful, even if you can't change the direction. The fact that you keep your inertia means that you don't just stop dead in midair while your opponent gets into position to punish you, and being able to jump and attack afterwards is an attractive prospect to me.

 

[ShortFuse]

i think backwards edge grab will be added to the list. i hated that with fox if i forget to press the direction of the ledge after pressing up+b straight up, he'd fall to his death. it'll help when you're under the stage and trying to up+b to a ledge in the opposite direction as the center of the stage. i hope that made sense.

in other words, you know how sometimes you're under the stage in Battlefield, in Melee. Using fox's up+b to the side won't kill you because you're facing the wrong way. it's a welcomed change though i'll miss turning people around with link's boomerang.

oh yeah and this:

is a directional air dodge for all you skeptics. seriously, what more proof do you need? the mario one was obvious and then you declared it was because of his jump momentum which never happens in melee.. then one where yoshi air dodges down in the middle of ascending double jump which throughs your "momentum" thing out. then there's one where link air dodges down while being midway through a platform. this is the 4th directional air dodge.