List of Advanced Techniques - Confirmed/Disconfirmed (With sources)

[AKC12]

The 'fast jump' you thought Samus did is actually just a footstool jump on Sonic. You couldn't see the mid air jump platform, but more like the smoke that comes when you jump from the ground. Samus was also on top of Sonic so it's likely it's a footstool jump.

 

[Crispy4001]

i think backwards edge grab will be added to the list. i hated that with fox if i forget to press the direction of the ledge after pressing up+b straight up, he'd fall to his death. it'll help when you're under the stage and trying to up+b to a ledge in the opposite direction as the center of the stage. i hope that made sense.

in other words, you know how sometimes you're under the stage in Battlefield, in Melee. Using fox's up+b to the side won't kill you because you're facing the wrong way. it's a welcomed change though i'll miss turning people around with link's boomerang.

oh yeah and this:

is a directional air dodge for all you skeptics. seriously, what more proof do you need? the mario one was obvious and then you declared it was because of his jump momentum which never happens in melee.. then one where yoshi air dodges down in the middle of ascending double jump which throughs your "momentum" thing out. then there's one where link air dodges down while being midway through a platform. this is the 4th directional air dodge.

Just to play devil's advocate, it could now just be what Yoshi does when he falls off the ledge as an egg. You may be able to switch his direction in the air when the egg breaking animation is over.

 

[Wight]

dunno if u still update this, but Stationary Air Dodge is confirmed, i saw it in a video but am too lazy to sauce it. There even was a thread by someone that wavedashing wouldnt be confirmed because someone only performed a Stationary Air Dodge. Idiotic hypothesis, but at least he had "proof" which someone slightly more arsed than me could nick.

 

[brandutt845]

Hmmm....

That's not very convincing. It doesnt look like there's a change between animations there.

 

[Crispy4001]

What'd you think I was making it out to be? Air Dodging?

Merely posted it to show that Yoshi can still recover when he rolls of the edge. Don't think we know enough to tell the exact reasons why he's able to.

 

[brandutt845]

Here's a GIF of the slide from your pictures:

That doesnt look like wavelanding. It looks like some kind of sliding animation when they get kocked backwards. It looks like he puts his hand on the ground to regain balance.

 

[brandutt845]

What was it supposed to be convincing of?

Merely posted it to show that Yoshi can still recover when he rolls of the edge. Don't think we know enough to tell the exact reasons why he's able to.

Oh. My fault. I thought you tried to prove directional dodging or something. My mistake.

 

[Crispy4001]

That doesnt look like wavelanding. It looks like some kind of sliding animation when they get kocked backwards. It looks like he puts his hand on the ground to regain balance.

The beginning of that animation looks very similar Mario's back-air, so for now the best guess at is that it's a recovery animation from when he hits the ground using it.

 

[Dynamism]

Hopefully it's just Yoshis >B

Also, I found Mario blocking a Diddy hit in the Halberg one. And he does get pushed away so it's all good. I don't know what the deal with the Sonic blocking Links UpB thing is though. Hopefully it was a powersheild.

 

[Crispy4001]

Hopefully it's just Yoshis >B

Also, I found Mario blocking a Diddy hit in the Halberg one. And he does get pushed away so it's all good. I don't know what the deal with the Sonic blocking Links UpB thing is though. Hopefully it was a powersheild.

I'll take a look for it. Are there Hi-res versions of the Halberg fights out there?

 

[brandutt845]

The beginning of that animation looks very similar Mario's back-air, so for now the best guess at is that it's a recovery animation from when he hits the ground using it.

Wow. There's a good chance it could be. Wow. The physics in this game amaze me!

 

[AKC12]

Oh, on the new IGN videos (first part of match I think), if you pay attention to MetaKnight, there'll be times where he'll dissappear ,reappear and attack. Any ideas on this??

 

[Dynamism]

Dimensional Cape

 

[BentoBox]

That doesnt look like wavelanding. It looks like some kind of sliding animation when they get kocked backwards. It looks like he puts his hand on the ground to regain balance.

Since the devs know about wavedashing/landing, why wouldn't they try and make it seem more natural/fluid? That wouldn't be hard at all. I doubt we'll be seeing chars sliding back on forth in their crouching position in brawl. Now all we have to do is find its new animation.

 

[StarshipGroove]

About Yoshi's special double roll, if you remember the second trailer, Snake rolls while he's running and goes into crawling position. It seems that Yoshi did the same in the video, but stopped afterwards, seemingly rolling out of his crawling state.

AGGHH why do I always post at the end of the page?!?! noone will read this now!!

 

[Eight Sage]

All kind of gimmick will be cut on Brawl. That's the feel I get.

That way, Brawl won't become a "Wave/etc. if you want to win" game.

 

[Dynamism]

that's what I hope for. Any "advanced techniques" are intentional
Oh that'd be the day...

 

[brandutt845]

All kind of gimmick will be cut on Brawl. That's the feel I get.

That way, Brawl won't become a "Wave/etc. if you want to win" game.

I think that's what's happening too.

 

[Zauron]

Since the devs know about wavedashing/landing, why wouldn't they try and make it seem more natural/fluid? That wouldn't be hard at all. I doubt we'll be seeing chars sliding back on forth in their crouching position in brawl. Now all we have to do is find its new animation.

Guys, read the earlier part of the thread. We already know that sliding thing is NOT Wavelanding. Its Mario landing during a BAir. We have frame-by-frame shots showing this and have analyzed it thouroughly. Here's a clip Crispy made after we discovered what it was to better demonstrate that the slide and BAir are the same animation, with just one of them hitting the ground partway through:

Also, you can clearly see the first 2 frames of the slide, before he hits the ground, he is NOT in an air dodge animation, he's in the same 2 frames as his BAir.

So please stop trying to make it into a Waveland. We already know it isn't. There are better mysteries to solve, such as that Yoshi forward double roll and whether or not air dodges are actually in any direction or only using your current momentum.

Also that video where Yoshi grabs the edge after bursting out of an egg is NOT an air dodge, he was doing his side+B just before that, went off the edge, broke out of the egg, went into a freefall, and grabbed the ledge. His dodge animation does not play anywhere in the sequence.

 

[Crispy4001]

I hope that every advanced technique found in the game is intentional by the developers, but also hope that the game doesn't lose nuance either.

Smash players have it easy compared to a lot of fighting games. No long lists of moves and combos to memorize, and not so much 'frame counting' (though it's definately there to a degree).

I don't see much wrong with simplifying things so that advanced techniques are even easier to learn and use. But part of me would like to see some techniques involve learning processes such as for Wavedashing, edge teching, etc that take some real time and patience to master and use beneficially. Although that does further widen the gap between the casual and the competitive players in terms of accessibility, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to have the latter grow a thicker skin to earn bragging rights, figuratively speaking.

 

[Wyvern]

i think backwards edge grab will be added to the list. i hated that with fox if i forget to press the direction of the ledge after pressing up+b straight up, he'd fall to his death. it'll help when you're under the stage and trying to up+b to a ledge in the opposite direction as the center of the stage. i hope that made sense.

in other words, you know how sometimes you're under the stage in Battlefield, in Melee. Using fox's up+b to the side won't kill you because you're facing the wrong way. it's a welcomed change though i'll miss turning people around with link's boomerang.

oh yeah and this:

is a directional air dodge for all you skeptics. seriously, what more proof do you need? the mario one was obvious and then you declared it was because of his jump momentum which never happens in melee.. then one where yoshi air dodges down in the middle of ascending double jump which throughs your "momentum" thing out. then there's one where link air dodges down while being midway through a platform. this is the 4th directional air dodge.

I probably should have been more clear. The reason it's obvious that Mario jumped is because that little aerial jump ring...thing...appears under his feet. Airdodges don't make those, or at least they don't in Melee. Therefore I assume that he must have double-jumped and immediately airdodged, but kept his momentum through the dodge (because all the dodges we've seen seem to do that).

And I haven't seen the Link one recently, but if I remember correctly, he dodges near the peak of his jump and slows and falls normally. There's no sudden burst of downwards momentum like there would have been in Melee.

And I don't see a dodge in the Yoshi picture at all. He just breaks out of the egg and DIs back to the stage.

 

[Zauron]

I agree, I have not yet seen definitive proof that you can dodge in any direction you want, and in fact have seen evidence that you can't. Look at Mario's dodge in the video with the Nintendo guy demonstrating the controls (Mario vs Samus where Samus eventually uses her FS on Mario). When he dodges on to the ledge, its not at all like a Melee dodge. He doesn't dodge suddenly in a compass direction, stop, then fall. Instead, when he dodges he follows the same trajectory he was already jumping and, more telling, begins to fall at the height of his jump before the dodge animation finishes. In Melee you would never start moving in a direction different than the dodge direction until you are done with the dodge and finish the animation. But in Brawl, we see that Mario changes directions with a smooth acceleration curve and begins falling BEFORE the dodge is complete, indicating the dodge just continued the momentum he already had.

Combine this with the knowledge that you can double-jump after a mid-air dodge now, and it there is evidence that directional air-dodging may have been removed in favor of improved manuevering after the dodge. It would be an effective way to remove Wavedashing without changing the physics of dodging into the ground, that's for sure!

 

[Crispy4001]

If there is any evidence of a direction air dodge, this is the best there is:

Diddy's momentum is leading downwards and to the left, but you can see that Diddy gains some momentum directly to the left.


The catch? Diddy's a new character, so we can't be 100% if his is his air dodge. And we have no example (except an iffy one with Yoshi which could be refuted with the momentum arguement) that the air dodge can be used in a downward/diagonally-downward direction.

 

[ShortFuse]

I probably should have been more clear. The reason it's obvious that Mario jumped is because that little aerial jump ring...thing...appears under his feet. Airdodges don't make those, or at least they don't in Melee. Therefore I assume that he must have double-jumped and immediately airdodged, but kept his momentum through the dodge (because all the dodges we've seen seem to do that).

And I haven't seen the Link one recently, but if I remember correctly, he dodges near the peak of his jump and slows and falls normally. There's no sudden burst of downwards momentum like there would have been in Melee.

And I don't see a dodge in the Yoshi picture at all. He just breaks out of the egg and DIs back to the stage.

i love how everyone completely ignores the downward airdodge after yoshi's up+B. you list 3 of the 4. where's your rebuttal for the most obvious one (yoshi moving up, airdodge going down)? i'm tired of people looking at youtube re-encodes. i'll never link to them. go get the high quality mp4 version from gamespot and check the time as listed on the first post. then come back and try to convince me that it's not a downward airdodge. the "4th" one looks like it could be airdodge toward ledge or more edge snap action.

also on that video edge snap doesn't seem to be mandatory. there's a point where yoshi doesn't snap to the edge.

 

[ShortFuse]

If there is any evidence of a direction air dodge, this is the best there is:

Diddy's momentum is leading downwards and to the left, but you can see that Diddy gains some momentum directly to the left.


The catch? Diddy's a new character, so we can't be 100% if his is his air dodge. And we have no example (except an iffy one with Yoshi which could be refuted with the momentum arguement) that the air dodge can be used in a downward/diagonally-downward direction.

that might not be dodge, it might some warning that was his last jump. i remember telling myself, "brawl should incorporate something to tell me i have no jump left, i hate thinking i can jump to up+b and then press X and watching my character fall to his death". there's also the possibility that it's a dodge and immediately jump-cancelled but i would expect there to be at least one frame of the dodge animation.

 

[Wyvern]

If there is any evidence of a direction air dodge, this is the best there is:

Diddy's momentum is leading downwards and to the left, but you can see that Diddy gains some momentum directly to the left.


The catch? Diddy's a new character, so we can't be 100% if his is his air dodge. And we have no example (except an iffy one with Yoshi which could be refuted with the momentum arguement) that the air dodge can be used in a downward/diagonally-downward direction.

There's nothing in the game we've seen right now that should generate that kind of smoke. A double-jump makes that little disc thing (still there, as proven by the Mario vs. Samus trailer), and that's clearly not any of Diddy's B moves. Between that and the blinking invinicbility frames, I can't think of what it could possibly be besides a dodge. Then again, there's that weird flash at the start...It also doesn't put him in his freefall animation. It's possible that dodges just won't do that anymore, but even Sonic's up-B puts him into a freefall state, in spite of the fact that he can jump or attack afterwards.

Maybe I should go watch the Diddy-containing videos again and see if I can spot anything like this that he might do.

EDIT: That smoke looks a LOT like the smoke that comes out of his forward-B. But he clearly doesn't do it...it's a flying kick sort of thing.

It ALMOST looks like he starts the kick and then cancels it somehow a couple of frames in, but I can't tell.

 

[AtticusFinch]

that might not be dodge, it might some warning that was his last jump. i remember telling myself, "brawl should incorporate something to tell me i have no jump left, i hate thinking i can jump to up+b and then press X and watching my character fall to his death". there's also the possibility that it's a dodge and immediately jump-cancelled but i would expect there to be at least one frame of the dodge animation.

this could be true, you can aslo tell he isn't blinking bright and dark (Like you do when you air dodge or use you up and b) But two things. One, I don't know for a fact if you still blink, and two, if it was a second jump, you would think it would be a longer animation, this looks short and chopy, like a air dodge. And yes, I do realize this is in slow mo, so don't try to say that it looks that way becuase of the speed, I can tell it would be chopy in normal speed ^^

Edit: to above

good catch, I didn't think of that ^^

 

[Zauron]

There's nothing in the game we've seen right now that should generate that kind of smoke. A double-jump makes that little disc thing (still there, as proven by the Mario vs. Samus trailer), and that's clearly not any of Diddy's B moves. Between that and the blinking invinicbility frames, I can't think of what it could possibly be besides a dodge. Then again, there's that weird flash at the start...It also doesn't put him in his freefall animation. It's possible that dodges just won't do that anymore, but even Sonic's up-B puts him into a freefall state, in spite of the fact that he can jump or attack afterwards.

Maybe I should go watch the Diddy-containing videos again and see if I can spot anything like this that he might do.

I don't know what it is, but it really doesn't look like an air dodge to me. No air dodge we've seen, in Brawl or otherwise, has that spark flash at the beginning, and the motion is just weird. I'm not saying its definitely not an air dodge, but I wouldn't say it definitely is either.

i love how everyone completely ignores the downward airdodge after yoshi's up+B. you list 3 of the 4. where's your rebuttal for the most obvious one (yoshi moving up, airdodge going down)? i'm tired of people looking at youtube re-encodes. i'll never link to them. go get the high quality mp4 version from gamespot and check the time as listed on the first post. then come back and try to convince me that it's not a downward airdodge. the "4th" one looks like it could be airdodge toward ledge or more edge snap action.

also on that video edge snap doesn't seem to be mandatory. there's a point where yoshi doesn't snap to the edge.

Yeah, that one definitely looks like a directional air-dodge down. I wish there were a better example though, since it is a dodge downward after a jump, when he would be falling anyway. However, it is pretty much STRAIGHT down whereas with the jump you think he would have still drifted forward a bit, and I think the jump still had a bit of height left in it (although this is Yoshi, so dodging may stop his upwards movement). I won't say this is 100% proof that you can dodge in any direction at any time, but its better than the other ones. I just wish we had more concrete examples with no room for doubt.

 

[ShortFuse]

If there is any evidence of a direction air dodge, this is the best there is:

Diddy's momentum is leading downwards and to the left, but you can see that Diddy gains some momentum directly to the left.


The catch? Diddy's a new character, so we can't be 100% if his is his air dodge. And we have no example (except an iffy one with Yoshi which could be refuted with the momentum arguement) that the air dodge can be used in a downward/diagonally-downward direction.

Source? (So I can check it out freeze framed on my media player)

 

[antpod]

Can someone please explain to me how Sonic gets to the ledge grab from the back roll here?

I mean, all he did is roll... unless he did wavedash off... Or maybe the ship's movement caused him to grab it but I doubt that happened since it didn't effect Link...

 

[Zauron]

Source? (So I can check it out freeze framed on my media player)

ssbros_shipbattle1_101207_wmvhd.wmv and ssbros_shipbattle2_101207_wmvhd.wmv from IGN.com.

In the first video he does it at 0:42, in the second video he does it at the very in in slow-motion when the match ends.

Can someone please explain to me how Sonic gets to the ledge grab from the back roll here?

I mean, all he did is roll... unless he did wavedash off... Or maybe the ship's movement caused him to grab it but I doubt that happened since it didn't effect Link...

That's definitely not a wavedash, there's none of the animation that would lead into a wavedash at all. Its likely just a physics thing that caused Sonic to slide off. Either a glitch or just a byproduct of the new physics, perhaps the same thing that caused Mario to slide when he landed the BAir as discussed in detail earlier in this thread.

 

[Wyvern]

Hold up a second!

Look at the first few seconds of the first Halberd trailer. When Diddy does a rolling dodge, that same little spark thingie appears. But it doesn't seem to show up during sidestep dodges. They also create a similar smoke cloud, but smaller and pointed in the opposite direction.

It seems to share a LOT of elements of a rolling ground dodge. It might be a coincidence, but I can't think of what it could possibly be. It's not a B attack, it's not a double-jump, no aerial attack works like that...I'd be more cautious in my assumptions, but I really am having trouble thinking of another possibility.

 

[ShortFuse]

Can someone please explain to me how Sonic gets to the ledge grab from the back roll here?

I mean, all he did is roll... unless he did wavedash off... Or maybe the ship's movement caused him to grab it but I doubt that happened since it didn't effect Link...

it coincides with the ship's upward movement. that's what i think. he's not fully done rolling (not as hit standing frame). sometimes, in melee, when you roll and somebody is standing on the edge, you get pushed off and grab the ledge (try it with 2 controllers on melee). i know sometimes, as marth, i get purposely get back off the edge using A against my friend's Link while he's doing a swordspin. if position is perfect marth will miss the swipe, but push link off the edge and the opponent will fall to his death. i can do it near consistently against one of my friends. i've been playing melee since it launched, and n64 before that. i know a bunch of tricks with the physics engine.
it's the way the physics is. i think sonic receives a horizontal force from the plane tilting and it pushes him off the ledge.

what i find interesting is that there's two points to grab on to the ledge. the top part... and then sonic snaps to the bottom part of the ledge.

 

[Zauron]

Nevermind, disregard.

Although, on that Sonic thing - that's one reason I thought it might have been a glitch, since it looks VERY weird when he pulls himself up from the lower position. I think it may just be a collision problem with that stage.

 

[Exorcist]

Hold up a second!

Look at the first few seconds of the first Halberd trailer. When Diddy does a rolling dodge, that same little spark thingie appears. But it doesn't seem to show up during sidestep dodges. They also create a similar smoke cloud, but smaller and pointed in the opposite direction.

It seems to share a LOT of elements of a rolling ground dodge. It might be a coincidence, but I can't think of what it could possibly be. It's not a B attack, it's not a double-jump, no aerial attack works like that...I'd be more cautious in my assumptions, but I really am having trouble thinking of another possibility.

My guess to this and also the whole Yoshi wierd rolling thing is a simple one. I think now instead of side rolling immediately turning your back on the person if done away from them, you always face your enemy, or the closest enemy.

In the Nintendo World trailer Pit rolled behind someone and attacked them, same goes with Snake. But in these gameplay vids Yoshi was in front of Pit and he dodged rolled closer to him(not behind), so the game made it so he didn't turn his back on Pit and instead continued facing him thus the new animation.

 

[Wyvern]

Oh, by the way. Go check out a rolling dodge in Melee Training Mode with the speed turned to 1/4. They created little flashy spark things back then, too. They were smaller and closer to the characters' feet, but they were there.

They never existed for airdodges, of course. I'm just trying to set up the spark as something characteristic of a moving dodge in general.

 

[ShortFuse]

Oh, by the way. Go check out a rolling dodge in Melee Training Mode with the speed turned to 1/4. They created little flashy spark things back then, too. They were smaller and closer to the characters' feet, but they were there.

They never existed for airdodges, of course. I'm just trying to set up the spark as something characteristic of a moving dodge in general.

AirRoll!? =P

 

[thesage]

Some characters could grab the edge during certain frames in melee regardless of the direction they were facing... Examples of these are Ness and Fox.

 

[ShortFuse]

People are saying that the FastJump is a footstool hop. If you look at the video, you'll see you get the circular ring under Samus that only happens when you do a mid-air jump. Compare that to mario's footstool hop on Samus in the other video. There is no circular ring in a footstool hop. Also, Sonic was doing his downB attack and if samus were to touch sonic one of four things would have happened:

A) Sonic gets footstool hopped and stops his move
B) Samus gets hit by Sonic's move.
C) Both moves collide and you would see the circle form with the "Perfect-Block" sound
D) both moves collide and sonic would have attack cancelled, stopping his move.

Watch the video and see that sonic keeps on doing his forwardB and Samus moves up with the cingular ring under her that is only present with a mid-air jump. Not only that, but a Footstool Hop adds a little glittery effect to the hop for the first couple of frames.

Not a Footstool Hop.
Crispy, please GIF that with the 720p IGN or Gamespot MP4 videos if you can for all to see.

 

[Proven]

One thing I have to remind you all that's been bothering me.

STOP THINKING ONLY IN TERMS OF MELEE!

There are things here that are from Melee, but there are things here that are most definitely changed from Melee. So not everything can be argued "because it was like this in Melee". The only thing I've seen so far to be the most consistent are sparkles and other extra stuff that happens during animations to be mostly the same between Melee and Brawl.

As for whether or not Yoshi did a directional air-dodge, I have to say no. My explanation: Yoshi does drop like a rock after his double jump, so it's possible he had reached/was reaching the height of his jump and so started dropping. My other idea is that the computer tried to fast fall as well in order to dodge the Final Smash attack. The Centurion was coming from the right, so fast falling down rather than allowing more forward movement would help.

As for Diddy Kong, I remember somewhere someone saying that his forward B attack causes him to jump forward and start some combo attack, like how Bowser's forward B sets him up for a grab attack. So in this case Diddy could have used his foward B to move forward like say...Captain Falcon's forward B. The difference here is that it doesn't count as a final jump.

But still, anything physics wise can be changed between Smash and Brawl, as we've already seen with jumping. We're all going to still keep arguing, including me, but it really is best now to just wait for E for All.

Edit:
Here's the quote, it came from IGN's hands on article:

Using the Wii remote to control the characters is easy. D-Pad moves them. Tap up to jump and down to drop through levels. The 1 button is used for standard attacks. If you press any direction with the D-Pad while tapping it, you'll get various strong attacks. The 2 button is used for specials. Neutral is, for example, Diddy's peanut gun. Directional pad left or right and 2 button will send Diddy jumping onto enemies, at which point he will grab and pummel their faces. If you press D-Pad up and 2 button, he'll rocket upward, slamming into anybody in his path. Meanwhile, D-Pad down will make Diddy drop banana peels. You can execute his Final Smash after gaining a Smash Ball by simply pressing the 2 button. Surprisingly, it works very well. The only issue I've had is using the shield, which is assigned to the B-trigger and a little uncomfortable.