List of Advanced Techniques - Confirmed/Disconfirmed (With sources)

[Zauron]

As for Diddy Kong, I remember somewhere someone saying that his forward B attack causes him to jump forward and start some combo attack, like how Bowser's forward B sets him up for a grab attack. So in this case Diddy could have used his foward B to move forward like say...Captain Falcon's forward B. The difference here is that it doesn't count as a final jump.

Yeah, this makes sense! I think that Diddy jump thing is his Side+B! It looks much more like that than an air dodge to me (and not just basing this off Melee's air dodge, but the other air dodges we've seen so far in Brawl). No other air dodge (in Brawl) has the sparkle or that weird motion he does. A B move makes much more sense, and the Side+B already known as a jump move of some kind further makes sense. Its like Falcon's Up+B grab attack but it doesn't go high because its a Side+B instead. I bet if an opponent had been near Diddy when he did that, at the part just before he starts to flip backwards he would have grabbed the opponent and done a mid-air attack like Falcon's Up+B.

 

[ShortFuse]

YOu can see Diddy's F+B in midair with GameVideo's Diddy Kong Final Smash video. There's no flashing or roll that time but you see the sparkle + wave behind him

 

[Doggalina]

Maybe his side B is the cartwheel. That'd be nice, but I'd prefer it to be his dash attack. It makes more sense.

 

[Crispy4001]

Crispy, please GIF that with the 720p IGN or Gamespot MP4 videos if you can for all to see.

Which video are you talking about again?

 

[Crispy4001]

YOu can see Diddy's F+B in midair with GameVideo's Diddy Kong Final Smash video. There's no flashing or roll that time but you see the sparkle + wave behind him

Thanks a bunch:

He doesn't do a flip in this one ... I'm really not sure what to think. Maybe his foward-B has different animations depending on the context? Either that, or his air dodge is different that most characters'.

 

[Zauron]

YOu can see Diddy's F+B in midair with GameVideo's Diddy Kong Final Smash video. There's no flashing or roll that time but you see the sparkle + wave behind him

Hey yeah, good catch! Actually, that shows it IS Diddy's Side+B we are seeing here. The exact same animation plays (if you watch it frame-by-frame in HD) but the difference is in the rocket pack video he cancels it partway through with an A attack in the air (NAir I'd guess), but in the MetaKnight vids he just continues to move forward and lands.

I'm at work so I can't chop up the clips right now, but I watched them very carefully and its definitely the same move. Now I'm quite sure with all the evidence (sparkle, dust burst, yellow flashing, odd backflip motion) that this is Diddy's Side+B and NOT a mid-air dodge.

 

[Crispy4001]

Bumping these for the new page.

 

[Salaad]

So thats his side B? Is that a Nair after it?

 

[ShortFuse]

There's one more, Crispy. I know you have IGN access. Diddy's F+B On the second video (ssbros_shipbattle2_101207_wmvhd.wmv) just skip to the last 5 seconds in the video. there's a roll with that one. it's already in slow motion too.

the diddy kong final smash video, he seems to cancel it with a nAir

and yeah, i was asking for a GIF of Samus' FastJump so people can see it can't be a Footstool Jump

 

[Crispy4001]

 

[Crispy4001]

Which video (and where) was the Samus one in?

 

[Crispy4001]

So thats his side B? Is that a Nair after it?

I think you got it.

 

[Zek]

Yeah, that spark shows that it's his side-B. Maybe the delay is because it's chargeable?

 

[Zauron]

In the beginning of IGN's Castle Siege video you can see Diddy use the side-B multiple times, usually cancelling it into an FAir. I bet if you got some nice captures of the first few frames, you'll see that even when he does it from the ground, it starts the same way - a spark, flashes yellow, puff of smoke behind him, and he does a backflip. Its just that the guy playing him keeps going directly from the backflip to the FAir, so the animation was hard to spot. Now that I know what I'm looking for, I watched it frame-by-frame and saw that it was definitely the same move. I'm 100% confident now that that jump thing is Diddy's Side+B and not a mid-air dodge.

Which means I'm also quickly losing faith that fully controllable directional air dodging is actually confirmed, since every example we've seen so far can be explained as being something else. Even the Yoshi one could be a result of Yoshi's weird double-jump and fast-falling to make it go down like that. I wish we had one more definitive, like falling quickly to the ground after already using up the double-jump, then suddenly dodging straight back up again in a clear dodge animation we are already familiar with (like Mario's) so there'd be no question that you can dodge in a direction different from what you are moving in.

 

[Pyr0]

In this Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O3Wy5UECAk

Bowser appears to do the "first part" of Fortresshogging.

basicly this confirms Fortresshogging in brawl.

Any1 else noticed this?

 

[ShortFuse]

Which video (and where) was the Samus one in?

first post, look at fast jump, has video and time. i think it's gamespot

=Gamespot's Media Summit 2007 Interview at 02:35=

oh and if you can, please edit all your GIFs into your post on the first page.

 

[ShortFuse]

Any1 else noticed this?

i need the time, and read the notice on the first post. i have the IGN video so i'll let it slide, but sometimes youtube videos don't have the correct timing

if a mod is reading this, please merge posts and remove this line. thank you

 

[6th Sense]

Jump after Air Dodge
Confirmed but more proof needed

* According to a journalist on Destructoid, he claims that you are now able to jump even though you have already done an air dodge. He knows the Melee rules where Air Dodge incapacitates your player but says it's different in Brawl. http://www.destructoid.com/hands-on-...wl-48983.phtml
"A few gameplay elements have changed as well. For instance, if you do a dodge in the air, you can still do a jump afterwards. In Melee, if you did midair dodge, you couldn't recover until you landed on the ground. Another change is the fact that you can catch items that are thrown at you."



-This would make Jiggs and Kirby Top Tiers! Broken recovery anyone? But it sounds somewhat plausible as an explanation of giving Yoshi a third jump. hmm

 

[Crispy4001]

This pretty much quells the rumor of the flip being Diddy's Air Dodge. Here's him starting the attack from the ground: (slowed down at parts to show the frames)

Also, that means that this wasn't a Wall Jump, and that Diddy can use the move after he Up-Bs.

 

[ShortFuse]

-This would make Jiggs and Kirby Top Tiers! Broken recovery anyone?

I'm sure it's just one dodge per air-time. You can't dodge again till you hit the floor/ledge

Sonic's recovery would be AirDodge up, Jump, UP+B, Forward+B, Down + B (has some horizontal movement but DI would probably give you more). Don't even get me started on Diddy Kong

 

[SonicZeroX]

This pretty much quells the rumor of the flip being Diddy's Air Dodge. Here's him starting the attack from the ground: (slowed down at parts to show the frames)

Also, that means that this wasn't a Wall Jump, and that Diddy can use the move after he Up-Bs.

This stuff could be exclusive to Diddy as Sakurai did state, 'Unfortunately, screenshots fail to truly capture the way he moves."

 

[Zauron]

This pretty much quells the rumor of the flip being Diddy's Air Dodge. Here's him starting the attack from the ground: (slowed down at parts to show the frames)

Also, that means that this wasn't a Wall Jump, and that Diddy can use the move after he Up-Bs.

Doh! Beat me to the punch. I was on my way home and in the car realized "Hey! That wasn't a wall jump Diddy did, it was his Side+B! So there's no actual evidence you can wall jump after an Up+B after all! Another theory disproven..."

I was all ready to come back and post screen shots to prove it, but you got to it first .

Interesting that he can Side+B after an Up+B though.

EDIT: Or can he? Its hard to tell because of the background, but it seems possible that this button-mashing n00b actually did an Up+B, grabbed the ledge on the way up (since we've seen you automatically grab ledges on the way up on Up+B moves now), then in his button mashing pressed Away+B which made him drop off the ledge and go into his Side+B, which then he cancelled into an FAir because he was mashing the attack button too. One thing that supports this theory is that just before the Side+B starts, we see Diddy facing away from the ledge, in mid-air, and not blinking at all or in his freefall animation (need to frame advance an HD video to see this clearly). But later cases where he uses his Up+B, he definitely goes directly into a blinking free-fall. So the fact that he didn't this time means he may have grabbed the ledge (which is obscured by the stage art) and immediately dropped off it again by pressing away. Hence, it may mean nothing special happened here beyond a n00b button mashing to their death.

I'm probably wrong, but I wouldn't call this clip 100% evidence that you can Side+B after an Up+B with Diddy, and certainly no proof at all that you can wall-jump after an Up+B.

 

[Crispy4001]

first post, look at fast jump, has video and time. i think it's gamespot

=Gamespot's Media Summit 2007 Interview at 02:35=

oh and if you can, please edit all your GIFs into your post on the first page.

Here's your images:

Compared to an earlier gif for speed

Could be a footstool hop.

 

[Johnknight1]

 

[Zauron]

Here's your images:

Compared to an earlier gif for speed

Could be a footstool hop.

I concur. Seems like a footstool jump to me. Which means a footstool jump not only does no damage to an opponent, it doesn't even knock them out of an attack they are currently doing. It seems to only affect them if they are just standing idle or jumping and not doing any moves. It also knocks them down at a very low rate, so its a very poor substitute for an actual Meteor Smash or Spike if this is al true.

 

[Zauron]

You want to clarify your point with posting that old picture again? We already know that's just Wario landing and immediately going into a dash.

 

[Johnknight1]

^ WIN! That's wat I'm talking about! WAVELANDING! WAVE-LANDING!

 

[Zauron]

^ WIN! That's wat I'm talking about! WAVELANDING! WAVE-LANDING!

That's not Wavelanding, its Wario landing and going into his dash. Look at other videos that show Wario's dash, he just runs like that.

 

[ShortFuse]

Here's your images:

Compared to an earlier gif for speed

Could be a footstool hop.

I already said why it couldn't:

People are saying that the FastJump is a footstool hop. If you look at the video, you'll see you get the circular ring under Samus that only happens when you do a mid-air jump. Compare that to mario's footstool hop on Samus in the other video. There is no circular ring in a footstool hop. Also, Sonic was doing his downB attack and if samus were to touch sonic one of four things would have happened:

A) Sonic gets footstool hopped and stops his move
B) Samus gets hit by Sonic's move.
C) Both moves collide and you would see the circle form with the "Perfect-Block" sound
D) both moves collide and sonic would have attack cancelled, stopping his move.

Watch the video and see that sonic keeps on doing his forwardB and Samus moves up with the cingular ring under her that is only present with a mid-air jump. Not only that, but a Footstool Hop adds a little glittery effect to the hop for the first couple of frames with no mid-air jump circle. The glittery effect could also be because got the Smash Ball, but there is no mid-air jump circle, that's for sure.

Footstool Jump does have an affect on players on the ground. Check out: http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/howto/technique/technique03.html

Also, a frame by frame examination, Mario returns to a "standing" state after he jumps on Samus. It's enough time to see him standing on Samus. It's at least 3 frames. With the Fast-Jump, there is no such frame. Grab Media Player Classic or Quicktime and move frame by frame and you'll see there's a difference

 

[Crispy4001]

I just went frame by frame in the Mario vs Samus video, and he's right, there is no circular ring.

I don't think we can say for sure, but I'll leave it as plausible.


Upated the GIFs on the front page too.

 

[Zauron]

I already said why it couldn't:

People are saying that the FastJump is a footstool hop. If you look at the video, you'll see you get the circular ring under Samus that only happens when you do a mid-air jump. Compare that to mario's footstool hop on Samus in the other video. There is no circular ring in a footstool hop. Also, Sonic was doing his downB attack and if samus were to touch sonic one of four things would have happened:

A) Sonic gets footstool hopped and stops his move
B) Samus gets hit by Sonic's move.
C) Both moves collide and you would see the circle form with the "Perfect-Block" sound
D) both moves collide and sonic would have attack cancelled, stopping his move.

Watch the video and see that sonic keeps on doing his forwardB and Samus moves up with the cingular ring under her that is only present with a mid-air jump. Not only that, but a Footstool Hop adds a little glittery effect to the hop for the first couple of frames with no mid-air jump circle.

You make good points, but I still say it's likely a footstool jump. Let's see if I can cover your points one-by-one.

A) Maybe not. We know Footstool Jumps do 0% damage. Its possible they also can not interrupt you in the middle of an attack, perhaps to prevent possible exploits. We don't know for sure.
B) Sonic is charging up the move, he hasn't unleashed it yet. I don't see why it would do damage when it is charging up. You can see he stays in place for a while even after the jump occurs.
C) See B.
D) See C.

Sparkles - I actually see them in both videos on HD. Its harder to make them out on the lower quality .mp4 but they are definitely there. I see no other effect that's on one video but not the other besides the double-jump ring you mentioned.

And now for the double-jump ring. For this I have to dip into my game programming experience and studies of Melee's coding techniques.

Smash Bros uses a control technique to make the controls feel smooth and responsive where, in the first few frames of a move, it can change into another move based on new input or changed conditions. This seems weird but its really vital to make a game feel responsive. In most cases, the player never notices.

A good example of this in Melee is Up Smash attacks. When you do an Up Smash, if you press Up slightly before A, you begin to jump. However, you then press A and it does the spin attack instead, cancelling the jump. This is why jumps don't leave the ground right away in Melee, so you have time to cancel them into something else.

Likewise, if you press A slightly before Up is high enough for a Smash attack, you will begin the animation of a Nuetral A or UTilt, but immediately cancel into an Up Smash instead when it detects that you pushed up the rest of the way in the first few frames.

There are other cases like this all over in Smash Bros, where something cancels into something else if its within a few frames. In fact, Wavedashing is only possible partially because of this control freedom.

What does this have to do with the double-jump ring?

Simple - in this case, Samus DID double-jump. However, within the time frame of a few frames, she was suddenly in a position where should could be doing a footstool jump off of Sonic instead. The game decides maybe this is what you wanted to do, and does the footstool jump. However, the double-jump rings have already spawned, and it may look bad/noticable to have the effect dissapear after a couple frames, so they just let them play out, figuring most people wouldn't notice a detail like that anyway. Chances are that when the double-jump is cancelled you also don't actually lose it (this is a common thing done in cases like this - for example, in a recent game I did I made it so you could cancel a double-jump into a wall-jump if you happened to meet the criteria of a wall-jump within the first few frames of the double-jump, and at that point I give the double-jump back to you - no one ever notices this happens though).

So there you have it. I wouldn't call it proof you are wrong, but I would call it enough to cast doubt on it being a fast jump instead of a footstool jump, especially since we've seen no other cases of a fast jump in any videos with a lot of n00bs jumping around everywhere.

 

[ShortFuse]

You make good points, but I still say it's likely a footstool jump. Let's see if I can cover your points one-by-one.

A) Maybe not. We know Footstool Jumps do 0% damage. Its possible they also can not interrupt you in the middle of an attack, perhaps to prevent possible exploits. We don't know for sure.
B) Sonic is charging up the move, he hasn't unleashed it yet. I don't see why it would do damage when it is charging up. You can see he stays in place for a while even after the jump occurs.
C) See B.
D) See C.

Sparkles - I actually see them in both videos on HD. Its harder to make them out on the lower quality .mp4 but they are definitely there. I see no other effect that's on one video but not the other besides the double-jump ring you mentioned.

And now for the double-jump ring. For this I have to dip into my game programming experience and studies of Melee's coding techniques.

Smash Bros uses a control technique to make the controls feel smooth and responsive where, in the first few frames of a move, it can change into another move based on new input or changed conditions. This seems weird but its really vital to make a game feel responsive. In most cases, the player never notices.

A good example of this in Melee is Up Smash attacks. When you do an Up Smash, if you press Up slightly before A, you begin to jump. However, you then press A and it does the spin attack instead, cancelling the jump. This is why jumps don't leave the ground right away in Melee, so you have time to cancel them into something else.

Likewise, if you press A slightly before Up is high enough for a Smash attack, you will begin the animation of a Nuetral A or UTilt, but immediately cancel into an Up Smash instead when it detects that you pushed up the rest of the way in the first few frames.

There are other cases like this all over in Smash Bros, where something cancels into something else if its within a few frames. In fact, Wavedashing is only possible partially because of this control freedom.

What does this have to do with the double-jump ring?

Simple - in this case, Samus DID double-jump. However, within the time frame of a few frames, she was suddenly in a position where should could be doing a footstool jump off of Sonic instead. The game decides maybe this is what you wanted to do, and does the footstool jump. However, the double-jump rings have already spawned, and it may look bad/noticable to have the effect dissapear after a couple frames, so they just let them play out, figuring most people wouldn't notice a detail like that anyway. Chances are that when the double-jump is cancelled you also don't actually lose it (this is a common thing done in cases like this - for example, in a recent game I did I made it so you could cancel a double-jump into a wall-jump if you happened to meet the criteria of a wall-jump within the first few frames of the double-jump, and at that point I give the double-jump back to you - no one ever notices this happens though).

So there you have it. I wouldn't call it proof you are wrong, but I would call it enough to cast doubt on it being a fast jump instead of a footstool jump, especially since we've seen no other cases of a fast jump in any videos with a lot of n00bs jumping around everywhere.

I'm sure it should have affected Sonic's move in some way. I change editted my text, btw. The footstool jump does have its animations and if was a footstool jump, it shouldn't have jumped frames. i understand what you mean that it would start the initial frames for the double jump, but it wouldn't skip the first 5 frames for the footstool jump, you don't say "FSJ.Seek(5).Start()" you just say "FSJ.START()"

Sonic was well into his B move so the algorith should have checked that. It might be a glitch as I do say in the first post, but I don't think it's a FootStool Jump.

 

[Chepe]

About directional air dodging, the examples of Yoshi and Mario can easily be proof of the momentum theory. Mario double jumps right before he air dodges (the ring under him appears right before), and his air dodge thus would have carried him up and right like that. And then Yoshi, he was at the end of his second jump when he air dodged, so he would have naturally fallen down. I still havent seen the Link one, but Im guessing he air dodged down while falling. Air dodges dont appear to snap at the beginning or stall at the end like in Melee...

Im sure Im not the first person who posted this, but still. I think a confirmation for choosing which way to air dodge still has to happen...

 

[Proven]

Back onto the case of what the new non-directional air-dodge means, I'm thinking it might have been changed for the spirit of "aerial freedom". If your air-dodge is in the same direction as your momentum, then that means that it's like doing an attack while in the air. Because of that, you can still do your double jump afterwards, rather than getting a new jump. You can still do your triple jump and other crazy moves as well. It may even be possible to do another air-dodge before you hit the ground as well.

Edit: Whether or not you can do another air-dodge before landing is now something I'm very interested in...

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

might just be a footstool jump done on sonic who because of whatever hes doing it didnt "hit him"

think a phantom hit, but with a footstool jump, which im assuming is just a new hitbox during your second jump that will change it to a footstool jump if it makes contact.

or whatever sonics doing mightve had inviciblity when the footstool jump connected. or it was a glitch and he didnt get knocked out of the move for some reason.

 

[Zauron]

I'm sure it should have affected Sonic's move in some way. I change editted my text, btw. The footstool jump does have its animations and if was a footstool jump, it shouldn't have jumped frames. i understand what you mean that it would start the initial frames for the double jump, but it wouldn't skip the first 5 frames for the footstool jump, you don't say "FSJ.Seek(5).Start()" you just say "FSJ.START()"

Sonic was well into his B move so the algorith should have checked that. It might be a glitch as I do say in the first post, but I don't think it's a FootStool Jump.

Actually you would. Its pretty normal when doing a cancel for control purposes to skip ahead on the move you cancel to.

For example, take that wall-jumping thing I mentioned again. When I detect that you actually wanted to wall-jump even though I had already started your double-jump, I had already started the double-jump upwards movement as well. I start the double-jump movement right away assuming that's what you wanted to do, and not wanting to make the character not respond to jumps right away so the game feels responsive. However, this meant that if you did a wall-jump "perfectly" you would go a certain Y distance. But if you double-jumped and then cancelled it into a wall-jump at the last possible moment it allowed, you would go higher than normal because you'd already moved upwards from the double-jump. This could lead to getting places you weren't supposed to in the game.

To compensate for this, I adjusted your wall-jump Y velocity according to how much of the "free" double-jump I let you do before figuring out you really wanted to do a wall-jump, and skip ahead a bit in the wall-jump animation so that the total time you are "on the wall" is such that it feels consistant each time. Thus you end up with the same total Y distance moved whether or not you start the wall-jump on the first frame or the 4th frame of the cancelled double-jump, and the animation appears to take the same amount of time. The user never notices the difference between a "perfect" wall jump and cancelling into one because I skip ahead, and only by watching frame-by-frame would you really catch the difference.

So yeah, if a double-jump was cancelled into a footstool jump because conditions were suddenly met and it was within a certain allowance time frame from when the double-jump started, it would very likely skip ahead partway in to the footstool jump animation and possible even velocity/position.

The same principle is the basis for handling latency in network games.

 

[ShortFuse]

I finally cracked it, FOR SURE this time about the Direction Air Dodge. Move close children.

On MTV's Videos, part 2, skip to 1:55. He was say "...and dodge in mid-air..."

Notice that this IS while link is coming down from the peak of his jump. He dodges, okay, he's going down. It's a momentum air-dodge, not directed. How do I know...well....here's the juicy part:

We can see his hands.

He presses up to make Link jump and pulls his hand away from the d-pad to when he dodges. He puts no down input and Link air dodges downwards. I think this is the case closed.
Momentum Air-Dodge Confirmed.
Directional Air-Dodge Unconfirmed.
Stationary Air-Dodge Deconfirmed
I can't say Directional is Deconfirmed because we don't know if you can move it yet, we just know Momentum is in.


WAIT WAIT WAIT!!! I TAKE THAT BACK!!!

I watched it even MORE!!! (yes it's possible, 8 inches away from my 42" 1080p monitor) and he press UP to jump, then DOWN and then after Link is done dodging he lifts his thumb off the d-pad!!! and.....we're back to zero but we know he pressed down to dodge, and if it wasn't necessary, why would he do it? hmm?
Melee = Stationary + Directional
Brawl might be Momentum + Directional

(edited)

 

[Zauron]

I finally cracked it, FOR SURE this time about the Direction Air Dodge. Move close children.

On MTV's Videos, part 2, skip to 1:55. He was say "...and dodge in mid-air..."

Notice that this IS while link is coming down from the peak of his jump. He dodges, okay, he's going down. It's a momentum air-dodge, not directed. How do I know...well....here's the juicy part:

We can see his hands.

He presses up to make Link jump and pulls his hand away from the d-pad to when he dodges. He puts no down input and Link air dodges downwards. I think this is the case closed.
Momentum Air-Dodge Confirmed.
Directional Air-Dodge Unconfirmed.
Stationary Air-Dodge Deconfirmed
I can't say Directional is Deconfirmed because we don't know if you can move it yet, we just know Momentum is in.


WAIT WAIT WAIT!!! I TAKE THAT BACK!!!

I watched it even MORE!!! (yes it's possible) and he press DOWN and then after Link is done dodging he lifts his thumb off the d-pad!!! and.....we're back to zero.

DOH! Good idea watching his hands though!!

 

[Proven]

Hey, isn't it confirmed that the default for the D-Pad on the classic controller is used for taunts, not for any movement whatsoever?

Edit: I just rewatched the video. He's using the wii remote by itself. D'oh.

 

[ShortFuse]

Hey, isn't it confirmed that the default for the D-Pad on the classic controller is used for taunts, not for any movement whatsoever?

it's not a "tactic" but yes, d-pad on classic, A button on wiimote. that wouldn't really belong here unless it's what i call "fear tactics" ;-)