List of Advanced Techniques - Confirmed/Disconfirmed (With sources)

[Zauron]

You want us to go back over the pages and pages of analysis and discussion to reach this conclusion so you don't have to read it? The evidence for this has been presented over and over again. I'm tired of seeing it explained again every 10 posts or so. There are other techniques to look at. Check the Wavedashing - DECONFIRMED thread for specific details, it explains it in the first post there.

Let's move on please.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

You want us to go back over the pages and pages of analysis and discussion to reach this conclusion so you don't have to read it? The evidence for this has been presented over and over again. I'm tired of seeing it explained again every 10 posts or so. There are other techniques to look at. Check the Wavedashing - DECONFIRMED thread for specific details, it explains it in the first post there.

Let's move on please.

I have read over a lot of it, but I still see no proof that players don't just suck at air dodging.

 

[Dan-E]

how does this new momentum dodge add depth to the aerial combat?? the fact that you can do more than one adds a bit yes for sure, but the fact that you can't really influence the direction takes away so much from mindgames.

 

[Zauron]

how does this new momentum dodge add depth to the aerial combat?? the fact that you can do more than one adds a bit yes for sure, but the fact that you can't really influence the direction takes away so much from mindgames.

If you can't see how being able to attack and jump and whatever else after a mid-air dodge adds to air combat possibilities, you really have no imagination at all.

I have read over a lot of it, but I still see no proof that players don't just suck at air dodging.

Then you didn't read it very carefully. Please go argue about why you don't think this is proof on one of the threads dedicated specifically to the Wavedash removal. Watch the videos discussed here frame-by-frame in HD as we have.

Its clear that dodges do not alter your trajectory, it has nothing to do with player skill. In fact, in some of the examples we've seen, it would take a VERY skilled player to be able to dodge like that if they worked the same in Melee, because you'd have to be pressing your analog stick in a very specific way in order to get a dodge that followed existing momentum (in Melee just pressing Block results in a stationary dodge, it does not follow your momentum). Beyond that, the dodges we've seen are physically impossible with Melee's directional dodging system, since the dodges in Brawl actually change direction during the dodge in a parabolic arc when used near the top of a jump. This is simply not possible unless the dodges are based on momentum, and if they are based on momentum, they can't be used for wavedashing.

Dang it, you made me explain it AGAIN. ARGH! Can we drop this please? There are other threads for it. The proof has been explained again and again. I'm tired of every person who hasn't been on the boards in a while coming here and demanding we go over it again instead of taking the time to read it themselves. Wavedashing is gone. Its been proven for anyone who bothers to go over the evidence. Get past your denial stage or go argue about it in another thread. This thread should be focused on confirming/deconfirming other techniques now that this one has been proven.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

If you can't see how being able to attack and jump and whatever else after a mid-air dodge adds to air combat possibilities, you really have no imagination at all.



Then you didn't read it very carefully. Please go argue about why you don't think this is proof on one of the threads dedicated specifically to the Wavedash removal. Watch the videos discussed here frame-by-frame in HD as we have.

Its clear that dodges do not alter your trajectory, it has nothing to do with player skill. In fact, in some of the examples we've seen, it would take a VERY skilled player to be able to dodge like that if they worked the same in Melee, because you'd have to be pressing your analog stick in a very specific way in order to get a dodge that followed existing momentum (in Melee just pressing Block results in a stationary dodge, it does not follow your momentum). Beyond that, the dodges we've seen are physically impossible with Melee's directional dodging system, since the dodges in Brawl actually change direction during the dodge in a parabolic arc when used near the top of a jump. This is simply not possible unless the dodges are based on momentum, and if they are based on momentum, they can't be used for wavedashing.

Dang it, you made me explain it AGAIN. ARGH! Can we drop this please? There are other threads for it. The proof has been explained again and again. I'm tired of every person who hasn't been on the boards in a while coming here and demanding we go over it again instead of taking the time to read it themselves.

First off, if you're so tired of explaining it then let someone else do it. No one made you do it. You remind me of the people who whine and complain about the DOJO "spoiling" everything when all you have to do is avoid the DOJO. Apparently, these kind of people lack willpower and self-discipline.

Second, have you played the game? I repeat: you have no idea how the game feels. You have never played it. And, to top it all off, this is a demo, so who is to say that air dodging won't be tweaked in the final version?

 

[Kittah4]

However, Dan-E, allowing you action after your dodge is what the air dodge SHOULD be about. In melee, if you rolled or spot dodged correctly, you were ripe for performing a counter attack. Unless you wavedash in Melee, you're helpless once you air dodged and air dodging away from attack could usually even give you enough vulnerable time for the enemy to follow up on the dodge. With the new air dodge, your enemies will be able to predict your flight path better, but your dodging will make them whiff their attack and let you relatiate almost immediately, especially if you time the dodge so you're in range for an air counter precisely when your dodge finishes. It sounds very strategic, to me.

 

[Kyu Puff]

The point is, he was DI'ing to the right. It he was falling straight, i'd have no argument. if he's pushing right. there should be a directional dodge to the right. in order for him to dodge down and to the right, he's had to move down and right which would at least make him fall faster but there's no change in speed. in other words, you press dodge and character goes invincible, it doesn't affect your speed. check out the sonic air-dodge (posted above)

you'll get your confirmation from E for All

Who cares if you have an argument or not? An argument isn't a fact. Directional airdodging has not been deconfirmed, and neither has wavedashing. Don't grab for crumbs. The "evidence" lies within a couple instances, and none of them prove that it is out. Why don't you just wait until tomorrow before publishing information which may or may not be true?


Zauron: This is the thread to discuss it, because it is advertising unconfirmed information as confirmed. The thread titled "Wavedash - Disconfirmed" was completely unnecessary to make (not to mention ungrammatical) and should be closed, as the thread in which Infil actually posted the information already existed. You simply cannot prove that it's gone without multiple people giving their word. We have a total of one person, who might be lying or wrong, and a bunch of speculation. You really don't know whether the people and AI in the videos were just dodging in that direction or not.


Edit - Also, Shortfuse: Can you please explain how DI had anything to do with that Diddy clip?

 

[Chexr]

That gif of the fast-hop looks suspiciously like the footstool jump.

 

[Chepe]

Second, have you played the game? I repeat: you have no idea how the game feels. You have never played it. And, to top it all off, this is a demo, so who is to say that air dodging won't be tweaked in the final version?

Because that would make no sense, to have done it like this just for a demo, and then in the final version revert back to Melee's air dodge...

A system has been established (officially so, tomorrow when our pros try it out). Air dodging doesnt make you free fall, but to balance it you cant choose a direction to dodge. If you could choose a direction, it would make for most characters having 4 jumps. Im sure they came to the same conclusion, so when they decided to take away freefalling after air dodging to improve air combat, they decided that being able to air dodge up while falling would have been too good...

 

[Zauron]

Who cares if you have an argument or not? An argument isn't a fact. Directional airdodging has not been deconfirmed, and neither has wavedashing. Don't grab for crumbs. The "evidence" lies within a couple instances, and none of them prove that it is out. Why don't you just wait until tomorrow before publishing information which may or may not be true?


Zauron: This is the thread to discuss it, because it is advertising unconfirmed information as confirmed. The thread titled "Wavedash - Disconfirmed" was completely unnecessary to make (not to mention ungrammatical) and should be closed, as the thread in which Infil actually posted the information already existed. You simply cannot prove that it's gone without multiple people giving their word. We have a total of one person, who might be lying or wrong, and a bunch of speculation. You really don't know whether the people and AI in the videos were just dodging in that direction or not.

It is confirmed. Get over it. If you open your brain you can put the pieces together. If Wavedashing is in the E for All demo, I will personally send a check for $50 to everyone who calls me on it. I have gone over the evidence very carefully and can find no fault in ShortFuse's conclusion. I can't understand why people coming here and telling you its gone in a few days is better proof than the hard evidence we have right now.

The Diddy Kong player was holding right, he pushed the dodge button, he did not go to the right, he went down. Thus directional air dodging does not work, thus no wavedashing. We know he was holding right because he was DI'ing to the right. We know he was DI'ing to the right because we know that you do not continue to move to the right in mid-air unless you are holding right (you decelerate your X movement until you are falling straight down instead). This is not the only video to show this. EVERY mid-air dodge we've seen was momentum based. Not only in the fact that the character moved the direction and speed they were already moving, but in the fact that after they started the dodge their velocity changed according to gravity and the current position in their jump arc when the dodge started. This does not happen with full directional control like in Melee, where you can use the Air Dodge as a sort of third jump in any direciton you want.

This was all discovered completely separately from the claims of the private demo at Nintendo HQ, and the claims from others who went to the press conference and tried it. It also goes along with the changes needed to make WiFi run smoothly, and makes sense with the other changes Sakurai has made to make Brawl more accessible to everyone. At this point, I can't understand how anyone could be so stubborn that they can refute evidence right in front of their faces. Its frustrating, especially becaues it is getting in the way of discussing things we have NOT already fully confirmed.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Way to be dense.

I'm not arguing that the conclusion doesn't make sense. I'm saying that it is not officially confirmed, and there is absolutely no reason to try to play detective just to prove yourself right a day in advance. If it just so happens that wavedashing IS in Brawl, the people who check this site for information every couple weeks will have been misled.

You can hold down and right at the same time.

DI has to do with altering the trajectory of knockback. Diddy was not DIing. He was simply in the air, and may have been only holding right, may have only been holding down, and may have been holding down and right. (This is aerial control, not DI.) He may have also been moving right and down, then airdodged right and down. It is incomplete data, and should not be deemed official.

Why can't the OP just leave it until tomorrow? Then there would be nothing to argue about, and we wouldn't be wasting site bandwith with unnecessary, repetitive posts.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Since when did you become the authority on these topics, Zauron? You don't have proof. You have significant evidence, and that is a good start. I've never played the demo, so I have no contradicting evidence, but that does not grant you the authority to declare a discussion over. Like Kyu Puff said, we can discuss it all we want. If you are tired of it then move onto something else. Sorry we are clogging up your precious thread.

You, like many members in this forum, have a huge misconception of the word "confirmed" (as well as its antonym). We all figured Mario would return for this version of smash, but he was not confirmed until we saw the first trailer. In other words, sure, we are leaning towards wavedashing not being in the game. My confusions comes from the fact that people like you declare things "confirmed" when the truth has not been fully unveiled. Remember the first trailer when Mario grabbed a smash ball? Well, along comes the demo, and it turns out the smash ball requires some beatings and not just a mere touch. Not only that, characters can use more than one final smash per match. Nintendo deconfirmed one of their own confirmed facts.

OK, so the pro players go tomorrow and verify there is no wavedashing. If you come back and brag to me, then you have missed my point. You are extremely compulsive in assuming that I am some wavedashing fanboy who is gonna freak out if wavedashing doesn't make it. The fact remains that you are not a governing authority in this forum. Get over yourself.

 

[Japanese Monk]

CARTWHEELING TO CRAWL TECHNIQUE

This should probably go up there. Its a theory me and Zauron share.

-----------------------

My first post (I hope no one has said this yet)

YOSHIS UNKNOWN MOVE

Im thinking what yoshi is doing is the start of the CRAWL technique.

Remember how snake JUMPS/Cartwheels into his crawling mode?

Nintendo World Trailer Snake Cartwheel

There, around 1:31 Snake cartwheels much like Yoshi.

I suspect that after doing the cartwheel one has 2 choices. Either start crawling from this position OR roll back out of this position.

Yoshi chooses to roll back out. Notice after Yoshi cartwheels he pauses while sitting on his bottom....then he rolls to his feet. I think this bottom position is the neutral position which can lead to a crawl or roll.

It makes much more sense than just clumsily stopping in you tracks and crawling. This cartwheel to crawl mechanic would be alot quicker and serve alot better...I think.

 

[Salaad]

Can we just wait till twomohroh?11?!!

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Can we just wait till twomohroh?11?!!

No. We have to wait until February.

 

[jellis186]

Okay, I've been following these forums for awhile. Ya know, long time listener, first time caller thing and Buzz, Zauron is right.

Buzz, you are thinking that the fact that we can still dodge in air means we can still waveland, which means we can still wavedash. Well you are right up until the wave dash part.

You can still technically waveland, if you have proper momentum, however, you cannot adjust the direction in which you will move from the waveland.

Wavedash is a shorthop combined with a down right or down left airdodge. With the new system, being one based on momentum and not on stick press, if you short hop and airdoge as soon as you get off the ground, you will continue to move up.

Without being able to influnace the direction you airdodge, a wavedash can only be preformed on the down arc of the short hop, which considering the time, if you choose to fastfall, will cause you to do a waveland straight down losing all forward momentum which makes it esstinally useless.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Okay, I've been following these forums for awhile. Ya know, long time listener, first time caller thing and Buzz, Zauron is right.

Buzz, you are thinking that the fact that we can still dodge in air means we can still waveland, which means we can still wavedash. Well you are right up until the wave dash part.

You can still technically waveland, if you have proper momentum, however, you cannot adjust the direction in which you will move from the waveland.

Wavedash is a shorthop combined with a down right or down left airdodge. With the new system, being one based on momentum and not on stick press, if you short hop and airdoge as soon as you get off the ground, you will continue to move up.

Without being able to influnace the direction you airdodge, a wavedash can only be preformed on the down arc of the short hop, which considering the time, if you choose to fastfall, will cause you to do a waveland straight down losing all forward momentum which makes it esstinally useless.

I understand what you are saying. I know all this. Quote me where I said that I think wavedashing is still in.

 

[susu_atari]

We've seen Wario do something that looked like a waveland in the Nintendo World trailer, although directional air-dodging may have been taken out after that trailer was made...

 

[Crispy4001]

It's one thing to analyze a video. It's another thing to get impressions from someone who has played the game.

These "confirmed" and "dis-confirmed" techs are all subject to change. Not only might people come back from E4 all with a different story, but we also have to remember that the game is still a work in progress. There is no real solid confirmation on anything at this point, just speculation.

Don't be stupid. It's fun to see what will or won't make it, but at least wait till tomorrow before drawing concrete conclusions.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

It's one thing to analyze a video. It's another thing to get impressions from someone who has played the game.

These "confirmed" and "dis-confirmed" techs are all subject to change. Not only might people come back from E4 all with a different story, but we also have to remember that the game is still a work in progress. There is no real solid confirmation on anything at this point, just speculation.

Don't be stupid.

quoted for truth

Tomorrow will enlighten us greatly, but it still won't be final. Have none of you heard how Melee changed over its development?

 

[Zauron]

Way to be dense.

I'm not arguing that the conclusion doesn't make sense. I'm saying that it is not officially confirmed, and there is absolutely no reason to try to play detective just to prove yourself right a day in advance. If it just so happens that wavedashing IS in Brawl, the people who check this site for information every couple weeks will have been misled.

You can hold down and right at the same time.

DI has to do with altering the trajectory of knockback. Diddy was not DIing. He was simply in the air, and may have been only holding right, may have only been holding down, and may have been holding down and right. (This is aerial control, not DI.) He may have also been moving right and down, then airdodged right and down. It is incomplete data, and should not be deemed official.

Why can't the OP just leave it until tomorrow? Then there would be nothing to argue about, and we wouldn't be wasting site bandwith with unnecessary, repetitive posts.

Okay, so the wrong term was used (I always used the term DI for both what you refer to as DI and for air control). The same thing applies. In order to move right when falling, you must hold right, otherwise you drift to falling just straight down. Since he was holding right then pushed dodge, in Melee he would have dodged right, but here he did not.

Again, its not like this is the only video we have as evidence. All the air dodges in the game use momentum from every video instance we've seen. They move in the same direction and velocity the character was already moving, and are even affected in mid-dodge by gravity and such. They behave the same as an air A-button attack, except that you have invincibility frames instead of damage frames.

Here's another random dodge. Its obviously momentum based. Look for yourself:

 

[Hoboman725]

Zauron I don't know if you did that GIF by yourself, but it's great... lot of effort to prove your point, good job!

 

[Japanese Monk]

I agree with zauron. I haven't seen a video yet of a person going right and dodging to the left. It seems he IS following momentum perfectly

Your jump is a PREDETERMINED path. The dodge just follows along that path now instead of being able to break out of your jump path/arc.

 

[Zauron]

Zauron I don't know if you did that GIF by yourself, but it's great... lot of effort to prove your point, good job!

Thanks! I tried to find a nice freeware program to do it but gave up, so I wrote a quick hack program to do most the work for me.

 

[Japanese Monk]

Thanks! I tried to find a nice freeware program to do it but gave up, so I wrote a quick hack program to do most the work for me.

GIF GEAR. Its free i think. At least the one I have is.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

OK. I'm convinced.

 

[ShortFuse]

I'm sorry. I didn't think it would have greated such a strong dissonance within the community / forums. Maybe I should have put it in orange as "Disconfirmed but more proof needed". The reality is, I don't think it needs more proof. I wasn't really going to candy coat. I KNEW people were going to be skeptical. If i truly wanted to convince everyone it was gone, I'd do screen captures of the video and detail every single air-dodge we have on video. Notice that I didn't. For those in this thread who have argued about the air-dodge and looked at videos frame by frame, I knew they wouldn't have hard time realizing it.

The problem is for the people who haven't seen Link's air-dodge, or meticulously checked out Mario's frame by frame. I knew they were going to be skeptical and started a new thread. I also knew there were those who would never believe it until E for All. That's why I said the final nail in the coffin will be E for All.

Realize what this thread is supposed to be. This is like scientific research. We also simply won't be satisfied by word of mouth of average smash players. We need hard evidence from confiable video game reviewers and videos. If it's far fetched and we can't back it up with video it's listed as "Confirmed but need more sources." Look at the jump after air-dodge, we have no video to prove that but Destructoid.com's editor says it's in.

Again, for those who have analyzed how the characters follow the rules of Projectile Motion during and after their air dodge and frame by frame examinations of other air-dodges the Diddy Kong video is enough proof. For those of you who haven't, you will have E for All. The thread title says "With Sources" You'll have your word of mouth confirmation from trusted players in the forum and we'll have our video confirmation.

As for whether we shouldn't say things are Confirmed because they're not final, that's not true. If somebody had a screenshot of Marth facing Lucas in Battlefield many would say "Confirmed!". Look at Snake. Snake wasn't in the demo. We don't know if Nintendo is having debates with Konami over licensing issues and Snake won't be in the final product because of it. I'm not going to have Snake listed as Unconfirmed just because we don't have a finished product. Take a look at the Copyrighted Characters thread I started about Ness probably being in because of Ape Inc. copyright information. As people say, "it's official but not necessarily final"

And last note: "Disconfirmed" is a real word but is mostly used in evaluation of theories or scientific data. It cannot be treated as the direct antonym to "confirm." There are many theses that have a title along the lines of "Disconfirmation of the ____ Theory".

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/disconfirmed.html
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=disconfirmed&x=0&y=0
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=en&hs=C5b&q="Disconfirmation+of+*+Theory"&btnG=Search

 

[Master Hoff]

I still think there is directional airdodge. The video you gave for momentum is flawed. The person you see doing all the controls is playing as Samus. The person you don't watch is playing as Diddy. I think the one you saw with Link airdodging down is probably correct. Ok, DI'ing right. That doesn't mean he doesn't press the direction he wants to airdodge before he does the airdodge. You seem to be sure of yourself that directional airdodge is gone. This is not even close to being proof. I'll wait til I play the game or see some actual proof to the moves being gone or not.

 

[Zek]

I still think there is directional airdodge. The video you gave for momentum is flawed. The person you see doing all the controls is playing as Samus. The person you don't watch is playing as Diddy. I think the one you saw with Link airdodging down is probably correct. Ok, DI'ing right. That doesn't mean he doesn't press the direction he wants to airdodge before he does the airdodge. You seem to be sure of yourself that directional airdodge is gone. This is not even close to being proof. I'll wait til I play the game or see some actual proof to the moves being gone or not.

So? What difference does it make who was playing Diddy? I don't even understand what point you're trying to make. You tell me, what do you think the guy did to make Diddy do that?

 

[yoshi_fan]

Okay, so the wrong term was used (I always used the term DI for both what you refer to as DI and for air control). The same thing applies. In order to move right when falling, you must hold right, otherwise you drift to falling just straight down. Since he was holding right then pushed dodge, in Melee he would have dodged right, but here he did not.

Again, its not like this is the only video we have as evidence. All the air dodges in the game use momentum from every video instance we've seen. They move in the same direction and velocity the character was already moving, and are even affected in mid-dodge by gravity and such. They behave the same as an air A-button attack, except that you have invincibility frames instead of damage frames.

Here's another random dodge. Its obviously momentum based. Look for yourself:

YEAH i have searching for that since i have been flamed all around the day in my msn. Since that image, i wondered about if airdodge wasn't now direccional. I have confirmation now ^^

Really... i like this xD, the only problem will be the dificulty to edgeguard = NO CHEAP TACTICS

(Zauron i want your program Can you pass me?, i was searching for a gif's generator since... lots of time. Are you programmer? (Well ok i have seen it, u ARE a programmer xd))

 

[Xengri]

With a gif like that, it's kind of hard to deny it...
My poor Ari dodge, why have they done this to you


Still good job Zauron that's a excellent example (can't really see any argument against it). Now to just sit back and hope that this new mechanic works for the better.

 

[yoshi_fan]

[phoenix wright mode ON]

Take THAT!

THIS IS CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE

Point fingers to Xengry

[phoenix wright mode Off]

 

[Kryptonite X]

Here's another random dodge. Its obviously momentum based. Look for yourself:

Good god finally. Now the naysayers can all shut up at last.

Thanks for all of the work you put into this.

 

[Xengri]

You know, I never cared to much for WD, but now I know how those people fell....

I use to love Directional air dodging all over the place, and now it's gone.

I'm excited cause now I get to master a whole new way to air dodge, but at the same time a little part of me really wants to deny this.

I mean this footage is just from a Demo, but Air dodge physics isn't something they would leave off until the final version.
I don't know... This new Air dodge better be good still. or I'm going to be really pissed.

 

[ShortFuse]

I will now play devil's advocate for the sake of talk.

"Sure, Momentum Dodge is in, but could be what happens when you press L/R when the control stick is neutral. We don't know if Directional Dodge is in if you press it while tilt the control stick"

Rebuttal: The player's DI during Diddy Kong video.

I don't know how we can steal the video because of the stupid flash video to make a GIF. It's pointless really, since most people will just be convinced with E for All attendees.
Btw, Soul Calibur 3 demo had many differences compared to the final product. Food for thought.

I hope people tomorrow try DJC cancelling for MetaKnight WaveDash

 

[Heavyarms2050]

as a cost of losing directional air dodge, you are now given the ability to jump after you use the air dodge (assuming that you dont use your second jump)

 

[Elefterios]

im pretty sure samus' "fast jump" is just a footstool jump on sonic.

 

[Magus420]

Pretty unlikely, but there's a slight chance of there being more than one type of air evasive maneuver. Say, to do the free moving sidestep-like airdodge you do it while not hitting a direction (holding isn't hitting), and a secondary type dodge you might do by 'smash' dodging by hitting a direction and dodge at the same time or something that has different properties.

 

[Emblem Lord]

**** Super Scrub Brothers Brawl.

 

[Adi]

Let's hope to god dashdancing is in. Or I've lost faith in Brawl.