Meta Link's Metagame Thread (Informative Quotes Can Be Found in the OP)

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Sure, Dthrow is faster but it's also a hell lot harder to pull of (for me anyways). To the point that it's not worth going for most of the time. And if the speedy movement we gained from the bomb slides are not what we are interested in then I really don't see any use in it other then just showing off. To me Bombslides is in the category of movement tech, it's a way to simply move around. And due to the speed and the fact that you can have a bomb flying in the direction of your opponents face you can get some cool confirms or force them to use a defensive move and then try and go for a punish.

If I want to use my bombs for pressure then I would say that bomb slides are not that good of an option. Just use soft tosses or smash tosses or just jump around and throw it from the air. If not for the speed bombslides would be useless which is why Toon Link players don't use them even though he can do the same trick, as you probably know... he doesn't go anywhere using it.

Of course you can do things like bomb slide fake out or forward throw into projectiles to use the bomb as a shield, but that's still movement tech. So you really have to explain what you mean when you say that bomb slides aren't about the speed.

...
I think we should be clearer about what we mean by 'speed' and 'fast' in relation to actual movement on one hand and overall move-speed on the other. Because I was talking about overall move-speed.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, speed and fast are words that literally can be used in the same
sentence describing the same thing. But I use fast as something that happened / happens fast like (He got in fast and then was right out again) or (The whole day went by so fast). Something that's hard to keep up with in one way or another.

While speed I would use as something more detailed like (the speed hes going at is
amazing) or (The wind is starting to pick up some real speed).

Or that's how I think of it anyways :/
Heh :3c Discussing language on a Link forum.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Well, speed and fast are words that literally can be used in the same
sentence describing the same thing. But I use fast as something that happened / happens fast like (He got in fast and then was right out again) or (The whole day went by so fast). Something that's hard to keep up with in one way or another.

While speed I would use as something more detailed like (the speed hes going at is
amazing) or (The wind is starting to pick up some real speed).

Or that's how I think of it anyways :/
Heh :3c Discussing language on a Link forum.

What? No no XD. Look... just, you misunderstood what I said, that's all. There's no disagreement here, there's no argument, there's no need to define terms. I'm just saying, we should be a bit more clear with what we're saying apparently. End of story.
This isn't the place to be discussing language. This is the metagame thread.

 

[Deleted member]

What? No no XD. Look... just, you misunderstood what I said, that's all. There's no disagreement here, there's no argument, there's no need to define terms. I'm just saying, we should be a bit more clear with what we're saying apparently. End of story.
This isn't the place to be discussing language. This is the metagame thread.

Sure... sorry.

 

[ExplosiveChaos]

So if I understand it correctly, if you really need to do a bomb slide, the downward fake out into whatever direction is the best?

 

[Deleted member]

So if I understand it correctly, if you really need to do a bomb slide, the downward fake out into whatever direction is the best?

Depends on what you want out of it. Nothing is really that hard cut in stone.
If you want to get a bombslide where you throw the bomb and get a follow up form close by then yes.
If you want a bombslide where you can hit the opponent and get a follow up from feather away then you should probably go for a frame perfect Forwards throw bombslide as you gain more speed.
If you want to do grab the opponent then then a frame perfect Up throw bombslide may be better as you again, gain more speed and thus reach longer.
And if you want to stile you should use the item discard bombslide or the bakthrow fake out.

It also depends on which button setup you have to do the bombslides. If you use grab + C-stick you should not bother with Up throw as you can't get it frame perfect anyways. But if you like me use the BA / Grab A version then it's really hard to do the down throw bombslide fakeout because the movement is so janky.

Though you can make it easier by preforming it out of a downwards tilted slow run, hitting B+A as fast as you can and then instantly hold the stick upwards. Though if you're to fast you will just bomb your self.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

So if I understand it correctly, if you really need to do a bomb slide, the downward fake out into whatever direction is the best?

If you're throwing the bomb forwards, the bombslide forward throw and the bombslide down throw fake out are equal best in that they let you act out of the bombslide the soonest. Every other bombslide variation takes more frames to finish the animation. It's all in the AT thread.

Also... you can only throw the bomb in one direction with fake-outs... and that's forwards, because it's the dash-throw throwing it.

 

[Deleted member]

So, I just realized that if you out of a dash smash the stick in the opposite direction you're running and then immediately press A you will stop in place, do a cute little sipp and smash toss the bomb in the direction you were running. I'm guessing this is already known but I realized this could be used to make the Back throw bomb slides a lot easier as you already have the stick back and can also allow you to more consistently get the non fakeout back throw bombslide. Not that I find it to be all that useful over all but I guess it's just a fun little thing. Not sure how many frames you have to input A though I would guess around 1-4 frames.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

So, I just realized that if you out of a dash smash the stick in the opposite direction you're running and then immediately press A you will stop in place, do a cute little sipp and smash toss the bomb in the direction you were running. I'm guessing this is already known but I realized this could be used to make the Back throw bomb slides a lot easier as you already have the stick back and can also allow you to more consistently get the non fakeout back throw bombslide. Not that I find it to be all that useful over all but I guess it's just a fun little thing. Not sure how many frames you have to input A though I would guess around 1-4 frames.

What you're talking about is running, entering a dash turn, then on the second frame of the dash turn continuing to hold the joystick backwards while hitting and holding A till the bomb is thrown. (Hitting A on the first frame of the dash turn animation is the same as inputting both actions on the same frame and so the A input takes precedence and you get a dash throw. Hitting A on the third frame just gives you a smash throw back in the direction you came from. So yeah, it's frame perfect. Also the inputs must be held otherwise it won't work.)

It's known, by me at least, but then there's also no point in doing it when you can get the exact same effect of stopping your momentum then smash/tilt throwing the bomb in the direction you were running by doing a JC throw out of the dash turn, which in turn gives a much greater window to perform it in and allows you to soft throw instead.

This does not involve a dash throw and instead revolves around the dash turn, and therefore it has absolutely nothing to do with bombslides. Not sure what all that was about.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

[It's not a double post... The last post was two days ago. And this post is actually good XD. The same lenient rules apply to everyone.]

So a while ago when talking about what we should do against people getting up from the ledge, I suggested that we SH Nair towards them (fast falling where necessary) as they are getting up to cover many ledge options by sticking a hitbox in them as their invulnerability frames run out. I suggested this because it was safe as well as really easy to beat out popular options such as stand up into shield. The down-side, as I mentioned back then, was that we'd be giving up damage and a hard punish (e.g. from F-tilt) in exchange for sheer consistency. Well now I'm here to tell you that you can have the best of both worlds.

At certain percents (detailed below), roughly within a 15% window, the lingering sourspot hitbox of Nair will combo into the first hit of Fair if you land near the edge then immediately run off the edge and then immediately use Fair. You get all the consistency of the SH Nair for punishing ledge options combined with the big damage of comboing into Fair, and to top it all off, in most instances the Fair will kill outright.

[All percents tested in training mode against a character doing a ledge stand-up, no DIing the Nair, rage and staleness are not accounted for, tested at 5% intervals.]
[Also, while testing there were often instances of me fast falling and happening to hit the opponent on the last airborne frame resulting in a frame synch Nair, which obviously meant that any follow-up after that would have been free, but I didn't count these cases. In a real game it would simply ensure your Fair even if the percents were off.]

In no particular order for now...

Sheik: 70%-80%. Kills.
Fox: 70%-85%. Kills.
Pikachu: 65%-85%. Kills.
Mario: 75%-85%. Kills.
Ness: 65%-80%. Kills from 70%.
Greninja: 75%-85%. Kills.
Peach: 65%-80%. Kills.
DDD: 85%-110%. Kills.
Samus: 70%-90%. Kills from 75%.


I can do characters on request I guess, but I'll probably come back to this post later and add more when I get bored.

If you happen to see the opponent at around these percents, with your own rage factored in of course, and they happen to be on the ledge, honestly it's worth going for a simple SH Nair towards them as they use their ledge option. It's quite safe and the potential pay-off, being a very early confirmed kill, is well worth it.

 

[Knife8193]

Would soft hit nair at the ledge into sweetspot nair or even another soft hit nair be more true and work at longer percents than fair1 off the ledge?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Would soft hit nair at the ledge into sweetspot nair or even another soft hit nair be more true and work at longer percents than fair1 off the ledge?

Good question.
Essentially, from what I was seeing, based on the characters I was testing initially, Nair to Nair wasn't really a thing, though I see now that this isn't entirely true. The initial Nair tended to hit people too low if their percents were too low because we're dealing with a sakurai angle here (which means that the angle the opponent gets launched will change drastically with how much knockback they receive; so Nair will hit people diagonally down with low knockback, more horizontal with medium knockback, and more diagonally up with high knockback). By the time the initial Nair was hitting more horizontally so as to be in range of Link's attacks as he ran off the edge (without FFing), the opponent was being hit too far away, such that you actually needed the reach of Fair to hit them. It became less a matter of hitstun and more a matter of range.
Now that I test it again though I can see that Nair to Nair would work on some characters, but I don't think it's going to combo better necessarily (without FFing) because of the reasons outlined above; e.g. Nair to Nair combos against Mario at 75% only (5% less and they are too low without FFing; 5% more and they are too far away).
As for whether we should be attempting these FF Nairs on lower percent opponents for the sake of ensuring the combo, I'm not completely sold on the idea, simply because it has its own risks like leaving you barely able to make it back to the ledge.
If the opponent's Up-special recovery isn't the type that would destroy you, your best bet would be to go for the second Nair at lower percents and not FF, then either catch any DJs or force them to recover lower, at which point you have DJ aerials to deal with them. Not everything has to be a combo to be good.

 

[Knife8193]

Ok, there is perhaps a 3rd option if range is the issue. Zair comes out 2 frames faster than fair and also is 2 frames faster (maybe equivalent if accounting for travel frames). Obviously a zair isn't the greatest edgeguard, but it can set up into a deeper edgeguard on some characters like Cloud or Mario who pretty much have to double jump right after getting hit by one to make it back.

For a 4th option, there's also Up B that has range in between a nair and fair, with relatively good startup.
Just theorycrafting here.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Edit: Dear god... At lower percents you can get soft hit Nair to cause a ledge slip, which we can then combo into a run off Dair spike. (Ledge slips have their own hitstun unrelated to the opponent's percent etc which is why Dair will still combo at 0%; the only real factor then becomes at what point does soft hit Nair stop causing the ledge slip.)
Edit 2: Works way better on floaties. Still testing.
Edit 3: Yeah wow... against floatier characters this is super legit and could net you some really early kills. Take Samus for instance. Soft hit Nair will force a ledge slip against a Samus (who has just done a ledge get-up) between 0 and 40% (tested at 5% intervals in training mode) and will kill from 20%. It's not even that difficult to land either. That's insane.

Ok, there is perhaps a 3rd option if range is the issue. Zair comes out 2 frames faster than fair and also is 2 frames faster (maybe equivalent if accounting for travel frames). Obviously a zair isn't the greatest edgeguard, but it can set up into a deeper edgeguard on some characters like Cloud or Mario who pretty much have to double jump right after getting hit by one to make it back. Just theorycrafting here. There's also Up B that has range in between a nair and fair, with relatively good startup.

Zair hits on frame 12 only near Link's hand. So it's not really 'faster' then Fair if you want the equivalent of Fair's range.

 

[Natmax]

Can you post a video Foxy? I'm trying to get it to work right now but I don't seem to be able to get off stage fast enough after the slip to combo into dair--I'm curious how near to the edge you need to land to get this to work.

Edit: It probably was just because I was trying to do it simply on a standing target.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Can you post a video Foxy? I'm trying to get it to work right now but I don't seem to be able to get off stage fast enough after the slip to combo into dair--I'm curious how near to the edge you need to land to get this to work.

I don't do videos. What I really need is someone who makes videos to work with me on these little things. For now in any case, I'll do my best to explain further.

Preferably you want to hit them with the sourspot Nair just before you land, i.e. just as their invulnerability runs out on one of your last airborne frames, i.e. not so it hits them on the top of their head. If you hit them too high up on their hurtbox you'll need to FF to the ground to make up for lost time; if you see that you started the SH Nair too late, you'll need to FF at the peak of your SH height before you hit them with the Nair to make up for lost time so that you hit them closer to the ground. In fact FFing in general is a good thing. These adjustments just make it much easier by saving a few frames.

You need to land right on the edge, the closer the better (but it doesn't necessarily have to be perfect, especially if the previous step was done well), that's why I said you need to SH Nair forwards, as in, full aerial momentum forwards, so get an idea of where you need to start from first. The momentum forwards will ensure that you hit them on the proper side so as to hit them off-stage, and then allow you to follow through and land right on the edge.

Then it's just a matter of inputting the dash during your landing lag (at any point during the 10 frames of landing lag will do) and hitting Dair as soon as you're clear of the stage (practice doing it too early then slowly increase the time you wait to get an idea of when you can do it asap). Note that you can always FF for a brief moment before the Dair if you need to make up for lost time.

It's a short period of precise inputs, not necessarily frame perfect by any means, but just precise enough so as to be very efficient with your time and save a few frames here and there. It all adds up. When you get it right and you're setting yourself up for the Dair, and you can see that they are within range, you'll know. I guess you could try it at a slower speed at first till you get an idea of what you're doing, but I personally didn't need to.

 

[Dumbfire]

so now, lets bring some follow up combos for Dash attack :D, any ideas guys how can you set up a true Dash attack combo?

scizor's weak hit nair to dash attack, do that, he fiends for it hard sometimes and now there's a reason to. You can bait the airdodge from dthrow to get weak hit nair to dash attack too, here's him trying but failling it's a very exact percent where it's true... then there's just, read a jump, I know I once won a set cause of yolo dash attack reading short hop, and boys and girls remember it extends very far off-stage when used at the edge and hits under the ledge

 

[kxiong92]

Bomb footstool> nair > dash attack works around 70-100ish depending on the character. But it is not true if they di away unless they are sent offstage by nair. They can tech if they are still on stage when hit by Nair while di away. But if they are sent offstage while di away, dash attack is true because they are still in hit stun.

 

[Deleted member]

You can always get first hit of Fair at around 18 > 30 ich and force the opponent into a tech situation. You just shoot an arrow and if they miss tech then you have a free punish. Simple.

 

[DUKEL]

First hit of fair at that percent is possible to follow up with soft hit nair to lock, which puts you in a perfect position to hit with f-smash, which can kill depending on the character.

Arrow locking is nice and all, but if you can nair lock you might as well do it.

I do think that dash attack should be our go-to punish for landing an arrow lock above 60% though. Before that it's up-smash due to damage, or dash grab if they're out of range for the up-smash.

 

[Deleted member]

First hit of fair at that percent is possible to follow up with soft hit nair to lock, which puts you in a perfect position to hit with f-smash, which can kill depending on the character.

Arrow locking is nice and all, but if you can nair lock you might as well do it.

I do think that dash attack should be our go-to punish for landing an arrow lock above 60% though. Before that it's up-smash due to damage, or dash grab if they're out of range for the up-smash.

True, Arrow lock is easier for the lock but getting the nair means you're not gonna have to deal with sprint into slow run into reduced skid stopping into Fsmash. Speaking of Reduced skid stopping, Link players over all should abuse the hell out of that one as it means you can to some extent run in and jab your opponent, it's that good and I'm sad that no one appears to be doing it... including me ironically.

So, an idea. Link can make his Dair auto cancel if he first does a fullhop and then at the top of the hop you do a rising Dair, it's so tight that the hitbox will go through the stage just before landing and as I said, it's auto canceled. Turns out you can also do this from a bari so that's Fullhop rising Bair > Rising Dair. It can be used to bait people who think they are gonna be able to punish it and at around 60 you can combo into your upB if you hit someone standing on stage.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I re-tested the d-throw follow ups on all the relevantly changed characters since the recent patch. The large D-throw follow ups post has been edited (http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-found-in-the-op.379659/page-35#post-20457552), but here's the tl;dr version:

Bowser is slightly more immune than he was before. He was already listed as a 0/5, so this just further settles it.

Charizard is definitely more immune than he was before. We used to have a few little things on him, but the weight buff plus the aerial mobility buff stripped these away. He's now a 0/5 down from a 0.5/5.

Corrin's slight air-speed nerf doesn't seem to have affected anything.

Mewtwo's weight buff hasn't helped him surprisingly. Our d-throw follow-ups work slightly better, and he was already a 5/5.

Samus is ever so slightly worse at avoiding U-tilt but the difference is negligible and as before nothing is ever guaranteed against this character anyway (0/5 still).

Sheik, the one you're probably most interested in, got hurt by the weight nerf in more ways than one. D-throw to U-smash is unavoidable from 20% now instead of 30%. FH Nair works from 40% instead of 50%. But most significantly FH Uair used to start working at 80% then stop working entirely at 90%, but now it starts working at 70% and will continue to work beyond 100% (kill confirms boiz), also we now have time to dash forwards for a frame or two in order to follow their DI away in front of Link to force the airdodge and beat it out at higher percents. She's comparable to Fox now in regards to our follow-up options, so she went from a 3/5 to a 4/5.



Earlier today I also fixed up the MU index thread; it had missing links and missing characters. At this point I'd like to encourage you to contribute towards the MU threads in any way that you can, especially the ones for the newer characters, the characters who have received significant buffs or nerfs in the past, or just characters who don't have much (or anything) written for them. It doesn't have to be much; even just a one-sentence observation/tip/opinion would be great.

 

[Goldenstein64]

I found a good start-up combo to use against chars with 113 weight value and above.
SH --> FAir (Only 1st attack hits) --> Grab, 1 pummel, FThrow --> NSpecial --> Approach Char --> Charge USmash
Should bring damage to higher than %40 if done correctly.

 

[Stryker95]

I found a good start-up combo to use against chars with 113 weight value and above.
SH --> FAir (Only 1st attack hits) --> Grab, 1 pummel, FThrow --> NSpecial --> Approach Char --> Charge USmash
Should bring damage to higher than %40 if done correctly.

Well presuming none of those five characters are smart enough to tech, ok. FAir has 12 frames of landing lag, and grab has a 12 frame startup so the opponent may be able avoid the grab, but am not sure. Good work with looking for combos though, have you viewed Fox's guide to labbing?
Edit: After first hit of FAir the character has at least 10 frames to do whatever he wants to do before Link can grab. Not saying that we shouldn't do it but just that this is not true, possible but not true. If you do get it, than props.

 

[Deleted member]

I can confirm that Grab after first hit Fair is true depending on the %. But you can also Fair jab jab and then grab is you don't think they aren't gonna act fast enough or think they are gonna make a bad read. Something that I have been starting to think about though is 2nd hit Fair. It kills a lot later then Fair 1 (about 15 - 20%) but does 2 extra% instead. Though I have not really been messing around with it. Just been thinking about it, yes I'm that dumb. Bur if Fair 2 would turn out to be a better combo starter due to it's far less knock back and higher damage then i'd be happy, Also if they shield and I assume you'd be spacing it out properly, it's safe to pull out as long as your opponent don't run in with shield.

Also, if you want a nice kill setup or just get of me ESK move then please consider this. If you preform a short hop and then double jump, you'll be at a perfect height for a FF Fair and if you wait just a little bit before doing it you'll even be able to get characters like Kirby who are just standing (probably not when ducking though). And to do a perfect FF aerial all you have to do is 1. have C-stick set to attack. 2. When no longer getting height, if you hold the L-analog either down or down diagonal and then use C-stick for an attack you'll automatically preform a frame perfect FF aerial. Though it can't be done with Dair but let's be honest, why would you want to anyways. So, shorthop double jump at around the max height while holding down or down diagonal and then C-stick to Fair. Kills at later% and combos into jab and grab at earlier.

Good job, you just wasted your day on my nonsens.

 

[Stryker95]

I can confirm that Grab after first hit Fair is true depending on the %.

What percents are those? And on which characters (heavy, medium, light, etc.)?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Bur if Fair 2 would turn out to be a better combo starter due to it's far less knock back and higher damage then i'd be happy,

Fair 1 has less BKB and more KBG, so it is going to be the better combo starter at lower percents because it will have less knockback at lower percents.

Also, if you want a nice kill setup or just get of me ESK move then please consider this. If you preform a short hop and then double jump, you'll be at a perfect height for a FF Fair and if you wait just a little bit before doing it you'll even be able to get characters like Kirby who are just standing (probably not when ducking though). And to do a perfect FF aerial all you have to do is 1. have C-stick set to attack. 2. When no longer getting height, if you hold the L-analog either down or down diagonal and then use C-stick for an attack you'll automatically preform a frame perfect FF aerial. Though it can't be done with Dair but let's be honest, why would you want to anyways. So, shorthop double jump at around the max height while holding down or down diagonal and then C-stick to Fair. Kills at later% and combos into jab and grab at earlier.

I'd rather space Fair without using up my DJ every time.

What percents are those? And on which characters (heavy, medium, light, etc.)?

I had a quick look just then. Try Bowser between 10 and 24%. What you want is for the character to receive enough hitstun but not enter into tumble and not be able to DJ out before they land so that they enter landing lag, and you also don't want them to get hit too far.
Note that weight is only one of the contributing factors. You've also got things like fall speed and gravity. So while Fox is a light weight, it works on him too (e.g. around 10 to 15%), and while Ness is a slow faller it will work on him at around 5%.

 

[Sceptus]

The listed percents are the last possible percents link's neutral b will lock.
I looked around before researching on this list, and didn't find anything, if this happens to be a duplicate I apologize in advance.
All results are from 1.1.5.
/no dlc don't kill me- Very sorry about this limit.

Spoiler

Character Percent

Bowser
154

Bowser Jr
137

Charizard
144

Dark Pit
130

Dedede
146

Diddy Kong
128

Donkey Kong
128

Dr. Mario
132

Duck Hunt
127

Falco
121

Falcon
136

Fox
119

Game and Watch
116

Ganon
142

Greninja
129

Ike
138

Jiggs
111

Kirby
119

Link
136

Little Mac
121

Lucario
132

Lucina
126

Luigi
131

Mario
132

Marth
126

Mega Man
134

Meta Knight
119

Mii’s
133

Ness
129

Olimar
119

Pac-Man
130

Palutena
127

Peach
125

Pikachu
119

Pit
130

R.O.B.
137

Robin
130

Rosaluma
120

Samus
139

Sheik
120

Shulk:
-Vanilla
134

-Buster
121

-Jump
120

-Shield
190

-Smash
109

-Speed
123

Sonic
129

Toon Link
128

Villager
131

Wario
138

WFT
130

Yoshi
128

Zelda
123

ZSS
119

 

[JohnKnight416]

The listed percents are the last possible percents link's neutral b will lock.
I looked around before researching on this list, and didn't find anything, if this happens to be a duplicate I apologize in advance.
All results are from 1.1.5.
/no dlc don't kill me- Very sorry about this limit.

Spoiler

Character Percent

Bowser
154

Bowser Jr
137

Charizard
144

Dark Pit
130

Dedede
146

Diddy Kong
128

Donkey Kong
128

Dr. Mario
132

Duck Hunt
127

Falco
121

Falcon
136

Fox
119

Game and Watch
116

Ganon
142

Greninja
129

Ike
138

Jiggs
111

Kirby
119

Link
136

Little Mac
121

Lucario
132

Lucina
126

Luigi
131

Mario
132

Marth
126

Mega Man
134

Meta Knight
119

Mii’s
133

Ness
129

Olimar
119

Pac-Man
130

Palutena
127

Peach
125

Pikachu
119

Pit
130

R.O.B.
137

Robin
130

Rosaluma
120

Samus
139

Sheik
120

Shulk:
-Vanilla
134

-Buster
121

-Jump
120

-Shield
190

-Smash
109

-Speed
123

Sonic
129

Toon Link
128

Villager
131

Wario
138

WFT
130

Yoshi
128

Zelda
123

ZSS
119

Is there a certain percent range in which you can Lock someone or does this only apply to Link's NeutralB. Also can you please explain to me what exactly happens when you try to use Link's NuetralB to Lock someone above the percentage limit for them? Like would it even be possible for Link to even perform a Lock at the point?

 

[Sceptus]

Erm, please ignore what I just said, I've got no idea how it got there, apparently it was moved?

Edit: Saw how it was moved, sorry about my confusion.
To answer JohnKnight416 question, no, certain moves have different limits to when they can jab lock, depending on KB. If you use Link's neutral b on, say, Bowser after ~154%, Bowser will stand up and slide a little bit, and get up immediately.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Is there a certain percent range in which you can Jab Lock someone or does this only apply to Link's NeutralB. Also can you please explain to me what exactly happens when you try to use Link's NuetralB to Jab Lock someone above the percentage limit for them? Like would it even be possible for Link to even perform a Jab Lock at the point?

Erm, please ignore what I just said, I've got no idea how it got there, apparently it was moved?

Edit: Saw how it was moved, sorry about my confusion.
To answer JohnKnight416 question, no, certain moves have different limits to when they can jab lock, depending on KB. If you use Link's neutral b on, say, Bowser after ~154%, Bowser will stand up and slide a little bit, and get up immediately.

Please stop saying 'jab lock' for something that doesn't involve 'jab'. The lock in question may be referred to as an arrow lock. If you used a Nair, it would be a Nair lock, etc. When talking about locks in general, refer to it as a 'lock'. Link actually technically does have a 'jab lock' if you hit them only with the hitbox of jab closest to Link and miss every other hitbox, which is much easier said than done.

 

[LakerLink]

I don't got proof but links arrow without charge goes a little bit farther with this patch.

 

[Stryker95]

I don't got proof but links arrow without charge goes a little bit farther with this patch.

I know you don't have proof, but do you at least have reasoning for this so we can test? The guys digging through data dumps did not find it so chances of change are pretty slim.

 

[LakerLink]

I know you don't have proof, but do you at least have reasoning for this so we can test? The guys digging through data dumps did not find it so chances of change are pretty slim.

It's not a big deal, I tend to use the arrows way more then the links that I watch play. On the edge of the map I use to be able to gimp with my arrows, now I have to be farther from the edge, and it has less of a arc going down.

On halbert I used to be able arrow(uncharged) from the edge of the map towards the middle of the map covered more distance. Having less of a arc now I'm shooting over shorter characters witch in the past I wasn't having that problem.

Also on lylat cruise when the map tilts if I'm on the upper tilted area I like to arrow (uncharged) to the other side of the map Cuase arrows go farther, so now the arrows go even farther then before on that type of situation.

I see it as a plus aside from the halbert stage, it's not really a big deal of diffrents becuase ppl don't use the arrows as much as they prefer using the bombs.

 

[micahismyname]

How do fellow Link mains feel about bidou?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH528Pdh1Rk

Is it worth giving up soft thrown bombs to have more control over movement?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

How do fellow Link mains feel about bidou?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH528Pdh1Rk

Is it worth giving up soft thrown bombs to have more control over movement?

I personally don't think it's worth it for Link, even though I agree that there are many characters that do get a clear benefit from using it. I already checked this out when the original Japanese video came out and my opinion hasn't changed since then.

Following along with the video, Link doesn't get anywhere near as much out of perfect pivoting compared to other characters. Everything in that video that uses the PP as it's base tech is therefore made that much more worse for Link.
We have no crawl.
We're not about to be doing multiple dash attacks at the edge in a row.
We have no wall-jump.
Nobody should be having trouble ledge trumping. You can do what he did in the vid by simply doing a half-circle on the joystick from forwards to down to back quickly.
We can already do the walk to run thing with the A-stick.
We can't do the stutter running thing because our skid isn't quick enough (and ftr, it can be done with the A-stick too).
I see no reason why we would ever want to slow run when our walk is faster.
We can do the standing turn around with the A-stick. Otherwise, every application he mentioned can be done automatically with the joystick and buffering.
Having an easier RAR would be nice for certain MUs, but then with a bit of practice you're not actually gaining anything that can't be done quite realistically with regular controls. It's just like, run, do the input for a dash dance (i.e. backwards then quickly forwards) and put a jump input in between, and bam, you're instantly doing perfect RAR's with no effort and no need for new controls. So no, the RAR with the b-stick setup is not executed "a bit faster". "On a side note", doing a B-reverse after a RAR is made easier if you don't have to let go of the special trigger first.
Link fast falls so fast and his ability to change his momentum is so average that any adjustments you would have otherwise made to your aerial mobility while fast falling in the time it takes to move the joystick back to the left or right position would be minimal anyway.
Link's extended dash dance kind of sucks compared to other characters, though it's still pretty cool. The trouble is that we don't have any amazing options out of a dash, which makes it much worse.

Aaaaand we lose soft throw bombs. And some easy bombslides. And we lose A-stick for aerials. Which in turn makes it like impossible to get FH buffered Uair out of D-throw. And we lose A-stick for throwing bombs in any direction while maintaining control with the joystick (I'm not about to rely on the 1 frame directional input from the b-stick for that). And we also lose instant tilts, which hurts a bunch of things such as the first hit of Bair to turn around U-tilt.

What I'm saying is, I don't think it's worth it for Link.

 

[luke_atyeo]

foxy truly is a god among men

 

[JohnKnight416]

Please stop saying 'jab lock' for something that doesn't involve 'jab'. The lock in question may be referred to as an arrow lock. If you used a Nair, it would be a Nair lock, etc. When talking about locks in general, refer to it as a 'lock'. Link actually technically does have a 'jab lock' if you hit them only with the hitbox of jab closest to Link and miss every other hitbox, which is much easier said than done.

Of course Link's Nair and NeutralB aren't actually moves that are considered to be a jab, but Technically they're considered to be a "Jab Lock" b/c they can lock an opponent in place for a short amount of time the same way as it works with Jabs from certain characters. Though either way, Jab Locking itself requires certain conditions that your opponent has to be in in order for you to pull off an opportunity for a Jab Lock .

 

[Stryker95]

Of course Link's Nair and NeutralB aren't actually moves that are considered to be a jab, but Technically they're considered to be a "Jab Lock" b/c they can lock an opponent in place for a short amount of time the same way as it works with Jabs from certain characters.

No, they are arrow locks or Nair locks, a jab lock requires a jab. For the sake of consistency and to avoid confusion we call them by their proper names.

 

[JohnKnight416]

I personally don't think it's worth it for Link, even though I agree that there are many characters that do get a clear benefit from using it. I already checked this out when the original Japanese video came out and my opinion hasn't changed since then.

Following along with the video, Link doesn't get anywhere near as much out of perfect pivoting compared to other characters. Everything in that video that uses the PP as it's base tech is therefore made that much more worse for Link.
We have no crawl.
We're not about to be doing multiple dash attacks at the edge in a row.
We have no wall-jump.
Nobody should be having trouble ledge trumping. You can do what he did in the vid by simply doing a half-circle on the joystick from forwards to down to back quickly.
We can already do the walk to run thing with the A-stick.
We can't do the stutter running thing because our skid isn't quick enough (and ftr, it can be done with the A-stick too).
I see no reason why we would ever want to slow run when our walk is faster.
We can do the standing turn around with the A-stick. Otherwise, every application he mentioned can be done automatically with the joystick and buffering.
Having an easier RAR would be nice for certain MUs, but then with a bit of practice you're not actually gaining anything that can't be done quite realistically with regular controls. It's just like, run, do the input for a dash dance (i.e. backwards then quickly forwards) and put a jump input in between, and bam, you're instantly doing perfect RAR's with no effort and no need for new controls. So no, the RAR with the b-stick setup is not executed "a bit faster". "On a side note", doing a B-reverse after a RAR is made easier if you don't have to let go of the special trigger first.
Link fast falls so fast and his ability to change his momentum is so average that any adjustments you would have otherwise made to your aerial mobility while fast falling in the time it takes to move the joystick back to the left or right position would be minimal anyway.
Link's extended dash dance kind of sucks compared to other characters, though it's still pretty cool. The trouble is that we don't have any amazing options out of a dash, which makes it much worse.

Aaaaand we lose soft throw bombs. And some easy bombslides. And we lose A-stick for aerials. Which in turn makes it like impossible to get FH buffered Uair out of D-throw. And we lose A-stick for throwing bombs in any direction while maintaining control with the joystick (I'm not about to rely on the 1 frame directional input from the b-stick for that). And we also lose instant tilts, which hurts a bunch of things such as the first hit of Bair to turn around U-tilt.

What I'm saying is, I don't think it's worth it for Link.

True, Link's attack options for close quarters aren't really that great, however, that doesn't mean that they aren't bad either. I mean despite the fact that a lot of Link's moves, such as his Smash Attacks & Tilts, have some Lag to them, they all do a decent amount a damage and also have good kill power.
Link's Ftilt, for example, is a good kill move at high percents from around 120% on characters in general. The drawback to this move is that it has a considerate amount of Start-up Lag. But with good timing and precision, you can get this Ftilt to land on the opponent and get possibly get a KO. This is moves becomes move efficient when combined with Perfect Pivoting as Link is able to use his Ftilt to punish his opponent during situations in which the opponent chooses to roll behind him.
And due to the fact that Perfect Pivoting is easier to pull of with Bidou Tech, as stated in the video, you can have a better time at punishing and killing your opponents with Link's Ftilt.
This sort option for Link may even be better than just simply using his Dash Attack for approaching his opponents. Despite the fact that Link's dash attack is also another one of his many kill moves, it does come out significantly slower than Link's Ftilt.
This is one of the many possibilities that Link can potentially perform with Biduo Tech in which I can think of. In my perspective, I think that this Technique can benefit Link in many different way such as strengthening his options to perform mindgames his opponents.
Of course, this will all depend on a player's choice of playstyle as Biduo Tech does require you to reconfigure with the setup of your controller, and at the same time, it takes away some of Link's abilities to perform some his own techniques.