Meta Link's Metagame Thread (Informative Quotes Can Be Found in the OP)

[Koby_T]

Hey all! I wanted to share with you the results of the testing I’ve been doing since yesterday. Sorry if it’s a dry, technical read. I’ll put it in a spoiler to avoid taking up a ton of space.


This is nearly finished. I stopped at Greninja because I knew it would be a week before I could get back to even testing this, let alone write up a summary. I’ll be finishing this by the end of next week but I think I’ve got the gist of what I want to share and the only thing left will be providing the rest of the data.

Spoiler

Purpose

Link’s jab 2 puts opponents in a vulnerable position and allows attacks to be strung after jab 2 dependent on several variables. Depending on the MU, opponents can range from being barely affected to being forced into a game of high risk and low reward “rock-paper-scissors” with Link. Through thoughtful conditioning of the opponent, Link can transition this otherwise niche technique into a kill option.

Test Conditions

It was quickly discovered that many variables influence the consistency of the results:

· Damage

· Rage effect

· Opponent DI

· Attack used after jab 2

· Opponent weight, fall speed, and size

· Point of contact with jab 1

The last point is highlighted due to it being the hardest variable to control. While the results show an absolute best effort to maintain consistent spacing, anomalies occurred somewhat often that were explained by spacing of jab1. It was hypothesized that a single hitbox with consistent knockback covers all of Link’s hand and sword hilt. Hitting at the hand would put the opponent at the center of the blade and the hilt would put them more between the shaft and the tip (MU dependent, of course). The center of the blade on jab2 has more upwards knockback than the tip and results in very different percent thresholds for an opponent’s options. At times, the knockback from jab1 could not be controlled or predicted and could only be described as “jank.”

All testing was done on Final Destination outside of training. In order to replicate these results, no DI was used unless stated. Link’s rage was always zero (That part was a pain). All characters can jump out at any percent unless otherwise stated (Sheik, Fox, ZSS, Greninja, Falco sorta). Close positioning is the absolute closest position the models can be placed in and remain without sliding away (some characters slide away due to movement in their idle animations ie. Jigglypuff). Mid-range positioning is at roughly the center of Link’s sword at full jab1 extension. Long range was not tested after the first few characters due to having similar and sometimes exact results as mid-range. The fastfall thresholds show when the opponent can FF and pull up shield in time to stop spin attack. Spin attack was the follow up of choice due to being able act out of jab2 as quickly as possible by mashing upB and not transition to jab3. It stands to reason that utilt would work at very similar thresholds as spin attack due having the same frame speed. It may even work at larger thresholds due to having an upward sweeping hitbox; however, significant practice would be required to consistently get utilt as soon as possible without transitioning to jab3. All obvious and suspected attacks that would keep the opponent from being hit by a follow-up were tested. If no results are shown, the attack is not viable to avoid spin attack. If spacing was not given, then it had no perceivable effect. Also please note that all thresholds given are when the corresponding option is available to the opponent and Link CANNOT follow-up with spin attack. Anything outside the given thresholds are when spin attack will connect even if the opponent attempts the option (ex. Mario uses nair at 100%. He will get hit by spin attack). Notes and observations are behind asterisks.

Results

Mario

FF: 0-35 (75% DI down)

Nair: 59-75 (Close only)

Uair: 0-75 (Close only)

Jab: 0%


Luigi

FF: Never

Nair: 0-80 (Close only)

Uair: Occasionally 0%

Fair: 34-85 (Close) *trades only*

0-45% (Mid)


Bowser

FF: 0-80 (DI down only)

Dair: 0-160 *occasional trades after 100%*


Yoshi

FF: 0% (DI down)

Nair: up to and beyond 150% (Close)


Rosalina

FF: Never

Nair: 0-100% (with Luma only)

Never without Luma


Bowser Jr.

FF: 0-40 (DI down)

Dair: 0-40

50-65 *trades*

Fair: 0-40 *trades*


Zelda

FF: Never

Nair: 0-100 (close)

0-66 (mid) *trades from 50-66*


Sheik

Jump: >119%

FF: Effectively always (0-124% without DI)

Jab: 0-90


Ganon

FF: 0-40 (127 w/ DI down)


Wario

FF: 0-15 (DI down)

Nair: up to and beyond 140% (close range)

0-68% (mid range)

Fair: up to and beyond 150%


Donkey Kong

FF: 0-50 (DI down)


Diddy Kong

FF: 0-40? (No DI)

>143% (DI down)

Jab: up to and beyond 130% (close only)


Game and Watch

FF: 0-60% (No DI)

0-40 (DI down) *….wut?*

Nair: 0-40 (close) *trades from 40-86*

0-50 (mid) *trades 50-80*


Little Mac

FF: 0-67 (96 w/ DI down)

Counter: Always


Link

FF: Always *2nd hit misses >70%*

Nair: Never

*jab1 placement has a very exaggerated effect on Link compared to other fighters*


Gay

FF: 0-32 (DI down)

Nair: Always (occasional trading at all percents)


Samus

FF: 0% (DI down)

Nair: 0%

Bomb: Always


Zero Suit Samus

Jump: 0% (Close)

>40% (Mid)

FF: <130% (No DI) *effectively always*

Jab: 0-130 (Close)

0-40 (Mid)

UpB: Always *initial hitbox even before the animation…well *****

*similar to Link in that jab1 has an exaggerated effect in regards to knockback and spacing*

Pit/Dark Pit

FF: 0 (Mid-range DI down)

0-48 (Close range DI down)

Nair: Always (Close and Mid)

0-20 (Anything passed Mid-range)

SideB: Always (Hits from 0-140%. Wiffs at >140%) *trades occasionally dependent on spacing*


Palutena

FF: 0-85 (90 w/ DI down)

Counter: 10-25 and >121%

Jab: 70-80%


Marth/Lucina

FF: 0% (DI down)

Counter: Always

Nair: Never (close)

0-90 (Mid) *trades passed 90%. Jab 1 may be better for follow ups after 100 here*

Fair: 0-90 *trades after 90. All ranges*


Ike

FF: 0-20 (30% w/ DI down)

Counter: Never

UpB: Rare at any percent *likely spacing dependent*


Robin

FF: 0-42 (DI down)


Duck Hunt

FF: Never

Nair: 0-50 (close) *trades after 50*

0-20 (med)


Kirby

Jump only *Low 2nd jump. Easy to punish?*


King DDD

Jump only *Too much landing animation?*


Meta Knight

FF: 0-40 (80% w/ DI down)

UpB: 0%


Fox

Jump: Never *not even close*

FF: Always and forever *gg*

Jab: Always


Falco

Jump: >50%

FF: 0-80% (Always w/ DI down)

Jab: 0-40%

Nair: Never

Fair: >50% *landing hitbox only*


Pikachu

FF: 0-90 (DI down)

Nair: Always *clearly spacing dependent but unknown spacing to land spin attack*


Charizard

FF: 0-87 (DI down)

Rock Smash: Always


Lucario

FF: 0-65 (DI down)

Fair: 0-68 (close) *trades >50%*

Counter: Always

Dair: 0-80 *unreliable*


Jigglypuff

FF: Never

Nair: Effectively always *At mid-range >100%, nair trades with 2nd hit of spin attack*

Dair: 0-30 (close only) *trades after 30%*


Greninja

Jump: 0-120%

FF: See Fox

Jab: See Fox

Counter: 0%



Discussion

Any error in data is likely the result of jab1 misplacement or failed execution of fastfall into shield. Although the data is approximate, it is likely that error is less than 10 (maybe 5) on every threshold.

It should be noted that fastfall into shield was perceived to be more difficult based on the size of the character. Diddy Kong, Game and Watch, and Pikachu all required multiple attempts to collect fastfall data due to accidentally air dodging right before touching the ground. The timing is strict enough that presumably even players who main characters these would have issue executing this movement (After all, labbing fastfall to shield after Link’s jab2 is likely not at the top of anyone’s priority list).

The most promising results from this test come from data sets similar to the one that belongs to Sheik in terms of the options available after jab2. After jab2, shielding and jabbing are the only options available to Sheik. Using jab2 into grab would trump Sheik’s attempt at shielding. Sheik can be conditioned to jab out of our jab2 if we go for a grab. Getting jabbed is hardly a punishment that we should be concerned about. The tricky part is that jab is no longer a viable option for Sheik after 90%. If jab2 -> grab can be used at least twice prior to 100%, it stands to reason that Sheik would adjust to either jumping or jabbing (neither of which are an option against spin attack). This would allow for a clean jab2-> spin attack at kill percent since spin attack trumps both jump and jab and our opponent has been conditioned to avoid using shield out of jab2.

Similar results come from data sets that are similar to Donkey Kong’s. Donkey Kong can only jump out of jab2 after 50%. That jump can be punished or at least dissuaded by attempting fair, nair, or zair follow-ups (I regret that the conditioning part was a little beyond the scope of this test). If DK can be conditioned to fastfall to the ground after a jab2, then he can be punished with spin attack at kill percent since he cannot fall fast enough to shield and has no aerial fast enough to stop it.


Conclusion

Jab2 follow-ups allow for mind games with certain MUs that can be extremely rewarding for Link. Since it is not a true combo, every character has a way out at every percent, but that way out changes depending on several factors. By arming ourselves with the knowledge of each character’s escape from jab2, we can condition our opponent’s and stack the odds in our favor in an otherwise game of chance.

Sorry that this is somewhat incomplete. I’m down to test all day but I can only ask my roommate to devote so many hours to tedious work.


Tldr; Just take a look at everything below “discussion.” It’s the most important part.

@Zane the pure @ DarkDeity15

 

[DarkDeity15]

Hey all! I wanted to share with you the results of the testing I’ve been doing since yesterday. Sorry if it’s a dry, technical read. I’ll put it in a spoiler to avoid taking up a ton of space.


This is nearly finished. I stopped at Greninja because I knew it would be a week before I could get back to even testing this, let alone write up a summary. I’ll be finishing this by the end of next week but I think I’ve got the gist of what I want to share and the only thing left will be providing the rest of the data.

Spoiler

Purpose

Link’s jab 2 puts opponents in a vulnerable position and allows attacks to be strung after jab 2 dependent on several variables. Depending on the MU, opponents can range from being barely affected to being forced into a game of high risk and low reward “rock-paper-scissors” with Link. Through thoughtful conditioning of the opponent, Link can transition this otherwise niche technique into a kill option.

Test Conditions

It was quickly discovered that many variables influence the consistency of the results:

· Damage

· Rage effect

· Opponent DI

· Attack used after jab 2

· Opponent weight, fall speed, and size

· Point of contact with jab 1

The last point is highlighted due to it being the hardest variable to control. While the results show an absolute best effort to maintain consistent spacing, anomalies occurred somewhat often that were explained by spacing of jab1. It was hypothesized that a single hitbox with consistent knockback covers all of Link’s hand and sword hilt. Hitting at the hand would put the opponent at the center of the blade and the hilt would put them more between the shaft and the tip (MU dependent, of course). The center of the blade on jab2 has more upwards knockback than the tip and results in very different percent thresholds for an opponent’s options. At times, the knockback from jab1 could not be controlled or predicted and could only be described as “jank.”

All testing was done on Final Destination outside of training. In order to replicate these results, no DI was used unless stated. Link’s rage was always zero (That part was a pain). All characters can jump out at any percent unless otherwise stated (Sheik, Fox, ZSS, Greninja, Falco sorta). Close positioning is the absolute closest position the models can be placed in and remain without sliding away (some characters slide away due to movement in their idle animations ie. Jigglypuff). Mid-range positioning is at roughly the center of Link’s sword at full jab1 extension. Long range was not tested after the first few characters due to having similar and sometimes exact results as mid-range. Spin attack was the follow up of choice due to being able act out of jab2 as quickly as possible by mashing upB and not transition to jab3. It stands to reason that utilt would work at very similar thresholds as spin attack due having the same frame speed. It may even work at larger thresholds due to having an upward sweeping hitbox; however, significant practice would be required to consistently get utilt as soon as possible without transitioning to jab3. All obvious and suspected attacks that would keep the opponent from being hit by a follow-up were tested. If no results are shown, the attack is not viable to avoid spin attack. If spacing was not given, then it had no perceivable effect. Also please note that all thresholds given are when the corresponding option is available to the opponent and Link CANNOT follow-up with spin attack. Anything outside the given thresholds are when spin attack will connect even if the opponent attempts the option (ex. Mario uses nair at 100%. He will get hit by spin attack). Notes and observations are behind asterisks.

Results

Mario

FF: 0-35 (75% DI down)

Nair: 59-75 (Close only)

Uair: 0-75 (Close only)

Jab: 0%


Luigi

FF: Never

Nair: 0-80 (Close only)

Uair: Occasionally 0%

Fair: 34-85 (Close) *trades only*

0-45% (Mid)


Bowser

FF: 0-80 (DI down only)

Dair: 0-160 *occasional trades after 100%*


Yoshi

FF: 0% (DI down)

Nair: up to and beyond 150% (Close)


Rosalina

FF: Never

Nair: 0-100% (with Luma only)

Never without Luma


Bowser Jr.

FF: 0-40 (DI down)

Dair: 0-40

50-65 *trades*

Fair: 0-40 *trades*


Zelda

FF: Never

Nair: 0-100 (close)

0-66 (mid) *trades from 50-66*


Sheik

Jump: >119%

FF: Effectively always (0-124% without DI)

Jab: 0-90


Ganon

FF: 0-40 (127 w/ DI down)


Wario

FF: 0-15 (DI down)

Nair: up to and beyond 140% (close range)

0-68% (mid range)

Fair: up to and beyond 150%


Donkey Kong

FF: 0-50 (DI down)


Diddy Kong

FF: 0-40? (No DI)

>143% (DI down)

Jab: up to and beyond 130% (close only)


Game and Watch

FF: 0-60% (No DI)

0-40 (DI down) *….wut?*

Nair: 0-40 (close) *trades from 40-86*

0-50 (mid) *trades 50-80*


Little Mac

FF: 0-67 (96 w/ DI down)

Counter: Always


Link

FF: Always *2nd hit misses >70%*

Nair: Never

*jab1 placement has a very exaggerated effect on Link compared to other fighters*


Gay

FF: 0-32 (DI down)

Nair: Always (occasional trading at all percents)


Samus

FF: 0% (DI down)

Nair: 0%

Bomb: Always


Zero Suit Samus

Jump: 0% (Close)

>40% (Mid)

FF: <130% (No DI) *effectively always*

Jab: 0-130 (Close)

0-40 (Mid)

UpB: Always *initial hitbox even before the animation…well *****

*similar to Link in that jab1 has an exaggerated effect in regards to knockback and spacing*

Pit/Dark Pit

FF: 0 (Mid-range DI down)

0-48 (Close range DI down)

Nair: Always (Close and Mid)

0-20 (Anything passed Mid-range)

SideB: Always (Hits from 0-140%. Wiffs at >140%) *trades occasionally dependent on spacing*


Palutena

FF: 0-85 (90 w/ DI down)

Counter: 10-25 and >121%

Jab: 70-80%


Marth/Lucina

FF: 0% (DI down)

Counter: Always

Nair: Never (close)

0-90 (Mid) *trades passed 90%. Jab 1 may be better for follow ups after 100 here*

Fair: 0-90 *trades after 90. All ranges*


Ike

FF: 0-20 (30% w/ DI down)

Counter: Never

UpB: Rare at any percent *likely spacing dependent*


Robin

FF: 0-42 (DI down)


Duck Hunt

FF: Never

Nair: 0-50 (close) *trades after 50*

0-20 (med)


Kirby

Jump only *Low 2nd jump. Easy to punish?*


King DDD

Jump only *Too much landing animation?*


Meta Knight

FF: 0-40 (80% w/ DI down)

UpB: 0%


Fox

Jump: Never *not even close*

FF: Always and forever *gg*

Jab: Always


Falco

Jump: >50%

FF: 0-80% (Always w/ DI down)

Jab: 0-40%

Nair: Never

Fair: >50% *landing hitbox only*


Pikachu

FF: 0-90 (DI down)

Nair: Always *clearly spacing dependent but unknown spacing to land spin attack*


Charizard

FF: 0-87 (DI down)

Rock Smash: Always


Lucario

FF: 0-65 (DI down)

Fair: 0-68 (close) *trades >50%*

Counter: Always

Dair: 0-80 *unreliable*


Jigglypuff

FF: Never

Nair: Effectively always *At mid-range >100%, nair trades with 2nd hit of spin attack*

Dair: 0-30 (close only) *trades after 30%*


Greninja

Jump: 0-120%

FF: See Fox

Jab: See Fox

Counter: 0%



Discussion

Any error in data is likely the result of jab1 misplacement or failed execution of fastfall into shield. Although the data is approximate, it is likely that error is less than 10 (maybe 5) on every threshold.

It should be noted that fastfall into shield was perceived to be more difficult based on the size of the character. Diddy Kong, Game and Watch, and Pikachu all required multiple attempts to collect fastfall data due to accidentally air dodging right before touching the ground. The timing is strict enough that presumably even players who main characters these would have issue executing this movement (After all, labbing fastfall to shield after Link’s jab2 is likely not at the top of anyone’s priority list).

The most promising results from this test come from data sets similar to the one that belongs to Sheik in terms of the options available after jab2. After jab2, shielding and jabbing are the only options available to Sheik. Using jab2 into grab would trump Sheik’s attempt at shielding. Sheik can be conditioned to jab out of our jab2 if we go for a grab. Getting jabbed is hardly a punishment that we should be concerned about. The tricky part is that jab is no longer a viable option for Sheik after 90%. If jab2 -> grab can be used at least twice prior to 100%, it stands to reason that Sheik would adjust to either jumping or jabbing (neither of which are an option against spin attack). This would allow for a clean jab2-> spin attack at kill percent since spin attack trumps both jump and jab and our opponent has been conditioned to avoid using shield out of jab2.

Similar results come from data sets that are similar to Donkey Kong’s. Donkey Kong can only jump out of jab2 after 50%. That jump can be punished or at least dissuaded by attempting fair, nair, or zair follow-ups (I regret that the conditioning part was a little beyond the scope of this test). If DK can be conditioned to fastfall to the ground after a jab2, then he can be punished with spin attack at kill percent since he cannot fall fast enough to shield and has no aerial fast enough to stop it.


Conclusion

Jab2 follow-ups allow for mind games with certain MUs that can be extremely rewarding for Link. Since it is not a true combo, every character has a way out at every percent, but that way out changes depending on several factors. By arming ourselves with the knowledge of each character’s escape from jab2, we can condition our opponent’s and stack the odds in our favor in an otherwise game of chance.

Sorry that this is somewhat incomplete. I’m down to test all day but I can only ask my roommate to devote so many hours to tedious work.


Tldr; Just take a look at everything below “discussion.” It’s the most important part.

@Zane the pure @ DarkDeity15

Someone should really make a video about jab 2 follow-ups with this information (or better yet, Izaw can add this information to his Art of Link 3 video, though that may be asking too much of him). I feel that the details would be easier to remember and understand that way since there is a lot of content in regards to this topic.

I'm glad I brought up jab 2 follow-ups when I did. Thank you for putting in the work.

 

[Rizen]

I told you guys jab 2 cancels had uses.

 

[Nimious]

From experience if your opponent catches onto your Jab 2 Cancels and picks jump as their option you should try Fair and Zairs after Jab 2 rather than just going for the full combo again. Alternatively just being below them puts you at an advantage.

Now this is theory but for characters that pick jump (and do not mash out Nair) that have multiple jumps, particularly low ones you may be able to foot stool them into a fast fall Nair reset.

That should work as I've done fast fall Bair to foot stool before so it'd be nice to look into.

Also the ideal Jab 2 cancel is into F-tilt. The shield knockback and coverage is the reason why.

Jab 2 cancels certainly has its place but eventually everyone's going to realize they can just jump out.

 

[Rizen]

From experience if your opponent catches onto your Jab 2 Cancels and picks jump as their option you should try Fair and Zairs after Jab 2 rather than just going for the full combo again. Alternatively just being below them puts you at an advantage.

Now this is theory but for characters that pick jump (and do not mash out Nair) that have multiple jumps, particularly low ones you may be able to foot stool them into a fast fall Nair reset.

That should work as I've done fast fall Bair to foot stool before so it'd be nice to look into.

Also the ideal Jab 2 cancel is into F-tilt. The shield knockback and coverage is the reason why.

Jab 2 cancels certainly has its place but eventually everyone's going to realize they can just jump out.

The problem with Ftilt is it starts frame 15 as opposed to Utilt and spin attack at frame 8. The attack area is good but it gives the opponent plenty of time to attack Link.

 

[Koby_T]

The problem with Ftilt is it starts frame 15 as opposed to Utilt and spin attack at frame 8. The attack area is good but it gives the opponent plenty of time to attack Link.

It's true, ftilt is so much slower that it would give a whole new set of data and add options to a few characters (ex. All the MUs with counters that don't come out to stop spin attack). That said, some characters have options that I would consider common "panic options" that are so bad in this situation that it could get them hit by ftilt. Take King Dedede for example, his nair is a fast move that in most situations would get him out of a lot of strings. However, his nair doesn't hit us after jab2 at any spacing or percent and the additional landing lag could be enough to punish with ftilt (although I suspect DI towards Link would change this). Of course ftilt will always work if your opponent falls asleep expecting jab3. Even still, I think the list of characters that this "works" on is a short one and is affected by who your opponent is as much, if not more, than the actual MU.

 

[Izaw]

This is good info, but it's too in depth for a video, it's easier to see and read about it here, so if anything I'll just give a link to this.

 

[Dumbfire]

The two most reliable ways to get out of jab2 cancels are jumping out and rolling away -- also the two most favored in my experiences. Jumps are naturally very susceptible to Utilt / Usmash follow-ups, and it's also why Scizor often does (has done since Brawl) Jab1Jab2 SH Nair. As for rolls, we can use our favorite Legan trick brawl, but most rolls are too fast so we are better off chasing with a grab in case of shield.

 

[Drigo Toes]

The two most reliable ways to get out of jab2 cancels are jumping out and rolling away -- also the two most favored in my experiences. Jumps are naturally very susceptible to Utilt / Usmash follow-ups, and it's also why Scizor often does (has done since Brawl) Jab1Jab2 SH Nair. As for rolls, we can use our favorite Legan trick brawl, but most rolls are too fast so we are better off chasing with a grab in case of shield.

We can also Dash Attack in the case of rolls... It is very effective in my experience...

 

[Koby_T]

We can also Dash Attack in the case of rolls... It is very effective in my experience...

Maybe! I might experiment with that informally. I think the speed/range of grab is probably king for avoiding rolls though. As DB said, it works in case of shield, and it's a little more rewarding due to our grab game buff. It's probably also safe for when most characters jump.

 

[KenMeister]

We can also Dash Attack in the case of rolls... It is very effective in my experience...

Is it something that's good to do on reaction or do you need to read the habit in order to pull it off safely?

 

[Drigo Toes]

Is it something that's good to do on reaction or do you need to read the habit in order to pull it off safely?

Let's say that you are running at your opponent, then he decides to roll to his back... in that case, DA is 100% secure and can be done on reaction. It is true that DA out of 2 jabs needs to be proved...

 

[Koby_T]

Is it something that's good to do on reaction or do you need to read the habit in order to pull it off safely?

Depends on the MU I imagine (Looking at floaty characters or those who have long rolls). To give you the most polarized example, take Samus. After Jab2 she is left fairly high so it takes a few frames for her to float back to the ground, if you wanted to dash attack she would likely have time to roll. Fortunately, her roll is so long that she would get hit anyway. It would still be better to probably just hit them with spin attack though in the case of floaty characters trying to fastfall since it's faster and they'll never make it to the ground. But I defer to Drigo since he has experience with it.

 

[Drigo Toes]

Depends on the MU I imagine (Looking at floaty characters or those who have long rolls). To give you the most polarized example, take Samus. After Jab2 she is left fairly high so it takes a few frames for her to float back to the ground, if you wanted to dash attack she would likely have time to roll. Fortunately, her roll is so long that she would get hit anyway. It would still be better to probably just hit them with spin attack though in the case of floaty characters trying to fastfall since it's faster and they'll never make it to the ground. But I defer to Drigo since he has experience with it.

You are taking it wrong.

I'm saying that, if the opponent rolls back after jab2, you (maybe) can punish it with Dash Attack. I know that DA can punish a roll if it is read properly, but it needs to be proved with roll out of our jab2...

 

[Koby_T]

You are taking it wrong.

I'm saying that, if the opponent rolls back after jab2, you (maybe) can punish it with Dash Attack. I know that DA can punish a roll if it is read properly, but it needs to be proved with roll out of our jab2...

Hmm, discussion through text is unfortunate because I think you're right in that I still must be taking something wrong. I guess I don't understand why we would give them enough time to roll away.

Here's how I see it with the assumption that we can catch roll away with dash attack. If a character lacks an option to fastfall in the data above, that means that they cannot shield to block spin attack. This means that all of those characters do not have the option to roll away either. Since dash attack has more start up on relevant hitboxes, many of those characters will have the option to shield dash attack. However, like you said, if they roll away them we've got them (probably). Since spin attack does similar percent and has no risk of being shielded against these characters, I don't think we would ever want to dash attack for these MUs. If our opponent attempts a fastfall and we're using dash attack then we're at a disadvantage since they can now shield or roll in (But probably not jab) to avoid.

For the MUs who can always (or almost always) fastfall, we put ourselves in a similar disadvantage given that our opponent can now shield, roll in, or even jab to stop DA. For these situations, grab would at least cover shield to give us 50/50 odds against their options.

Since the damage output of Spin attack, Dash attack, and Dthrow + Utilt are all very similar, and the KO power of Dash attack and Spin attack are also very comparable, I don't see when dash attack would be preferable since it is a slower, more telegraphed option. Of course, if our opponent has been rolling out of jab2 all match then we've got the easy read but I still think it's an unnecessary risk for covering an option that is already covered either sooner with spin attack or more safely with grab.

 

[Knife8193]

Dash grab is safer to punish people rolling away. Overall, jab2 > grab seems to be my most consistent option, followed by jab 2 > utilt, then jab 2 > spin attack. All other options are hard reads like Fsmash to punish spotdodge, Dsmash to punish rolls behind you, and dtilt which punishes airdodge landings/spaced aerials and shield pokes (nets 26% if you follow with Uair and they don't DI away).

You can also try jab2 > shield > Up B OoS against characters who have quick nairs/jabs.

 

[Drigo Toes]

Hmm, discussion through text is unfortunate because I think you're right in that I still must be taking something wrong. I guess I don't understand why we would give them enough time to roll away.

Here's how I see it with the assumption that we can catch roll away with dash attack. If a character lacks an option to fastfall in the data above, that means that they cannot shield to block spin attack. This means that all of those characters do not have the option to roll away either. Since dash attack has more start up on relevant hitboxes, many of those characters will have the option to shield dash attack. However, like you said, if they roll away them we've got them (probably). Since spin attack does similar percent and has no risk of being shielded against these characters, I don't think we would ever want to dash attack for these MUs. If our opponent attempts a fastfall and we're using dash attack then we're at a disadvantage since they can now shield or roll in (But probably not jab) to avoid.

For the MUs who can always (or almost always) fastfall, we put ourselves in a similar disadvantage given that our opponent can now shield, roll in, or even jab to stop DA. For these situations, grab would at least cover shield to give us 50/50 odds against their options.

Since the damage output of Spin attack, Dash attack, and Dthrow + Utilt are all very similar, and the KO power of Dash attack and Spin attack are also very comparable, I don't see when dash attack would be preferable since it is a slower, more telegraphed option. Of course, if our opponent has been rolling out of jab2 all match then we've got the easy but I think still think it's an unnecessary risk for covering an option that is already covered either sooner with spin attack or more safely with grab.

I will take the example with Fox.

Fox can ALWAYS shield after jab2. A instant grab is easely dodgeable by a spotdodge or roll. SA is not an option as it can be shielded or dodged by a roll and hard punished.
As DF said, the opponent naturally will try to roll away after our jab2. Here we have 3 options:
* Grab
* DA
* SA
If fox have 120%, the latter two are kill options, but I'm saying that DA is more easy to do on reaction and safer than SA.

 

[Nimious]

The problem with Ftilt is it starts frame 15 as opposed to Utilt and spin attack at frame 8. The attack area is good but it gives the opponent plenty of time to attack Link.

I realize that however Jab 2 would not work in most situations regardless. Up-tilt is the best option in terms of frames and commitment but the coverage is bad enough that your opponent can get out just by holding away in most cases. Spin attack is too committal and unsafe.

Which is why F-tilt should be an option. If they're making the mistake to get caught by Jab 2 cancels, F-tilt has a fair chance to hit.

Ultimately we're talking about something that isn't even close to a true-combo and is much more dependent on your opponent making mistakes which is why I'd argue the difference in frames is not significant enough to not use this.

The use of Jab 2 Cancels is really going to depend entirely on the Link's judgement.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Jab 2 cancels certainly has its place but eventually everyone's going to realize they can just jump out.

That's when you U-smash or U-air them for the kill. Having a read opportunity is always a good thing. The most important part is that Link virtually always has a followup option to pressure someone into a kill after Jab2. That's better than what a lot of characters can do, frankly.

Oh yeah so...Giant Bombs are secretly pretty good. Obviously you can't use them the same way as regular Bombs, but they have some important advantages.

*detonate when your opponent attacks them
*very large blast radius
*Good damage

You can't use them for shield pressure, OOS punishes, or starting combos in the same way as other Bombs, but these Bombs are still good for discouraging your opponent from attacking you, and they're good for traps, ESPECIALLY at the ledge. Not bad for edgeguards either when some Up-Bs will get blown up by these Bombs for a nice chunk of damage.

I'm honestly enjoying Giant Bombs a lot given it's actually relatively rare to hit your opponent directly with Bombs. The loss of shield pressure isn't quite that big of a deal in most cases when you can't really grab your opponent anyway while holding an item. Pulling out a Giant Bomb after taking a hit can be really good however for getting back to neutral when you can drop the Bomb in front of you to stop rushdown, or shield with it sorta like Snake's old Grenade shielding trick.

The huge explosion radius of Giant Bombs also can force a reaction from your opponent at the ledge, which you can try to react to or punish. If you want to use the Power Bow, Giant Bomb ledge traps are one of the better ways to set this up.

 

[Nimious]

That's when you U-smash or U-air them for the kill. Having a read opportunity is always a good thing. The most important part is that Link virtually always has a followup option to pressure someone into a kill after Jab2. That's better than what a lot of characters can do, frankly.

Except you can't do Jab 2 Cancel to Up-smash and expect it to land. If they jump it's generally already too late. Up-smash is even less likely to hit than the Up-tilt in this case. If you mean to catch someone's landing then I suppose but that's unlikely given Link isn't very fast.

Same thing with Jab 2 Cancel and following their jump with an Up-air. Link's aerial mobility isn't all that great but it could work on some characters.

While the fact our jab can lead to kill moves is a lot better than most characters there's also the issue that all our smashes are generally slow and laggy and thus very punishable. It's a necessity for jab to set-up kills if anything.

The true use of Jab 2 Cancels will be against people who do not know the match-up against Link. It will be fraudulent but that's where Jab 2 Cancels will truly shine lol .

 

[Izaw]

Ok guys, I've done some testing recently.

I've noticed Link can drop his bomb after being grabbed and thrown. Now I'm not sure how this worked, cause I've just tested this for about 20min so far. Anyway I had a CF grab me while I had a bomb in my hand, and either Down Throw me or Up Throw me. If I don't use the controller at all, the bomb won't drop. And if it does drop it's very, VERY seldom. However if I would press Z at a certain point of the Up throw or Down throw (not sure of the exact timing, but it's seems to be either just as I get hit OR get launched) the bomb would very OFTEN drop on the ground. I managed to do it 5 times in a row after CF Up threw me. And when I didn't use the controller at all, the bomb seemed to drop maybe 1 out of 20 times.

Has anyone looked into this ?

 

[InfinityAlex]

*looks at the thread title*

Projectile spam. Projectile spam all the time.
OK, I'm sorry guys, please don't kill me, I'll just...leave now, yeah?

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

*Looks at the post above*

Wrecked by Link. Wrecked by Link all the time.

 

[InfinityAlex]

Truth hurts. ;^;
Well, not really, I'm just trying not to look butthurt like you .

 

[Dumbfire]

*looks at the thread title*

Projectile spam. Projectile spam all the time.
OK, I'm sorry guys, please don't kill me, I'll just...leave now, yeah?

I love how the Internet sometimes is perfectly concordant with real life: some pathetic geek forcing himself into a conversation where he is not wanted, making a bad joke and promptly leaving during the ensuing silence while mumbling awkwardly to himself. A "British artist who loves video games, comic books, Doctor Who and, most importantly, bacon double-cheese burgers!", eh?

"After watching Doctor Who and 'reading' creepy nerd fan fiction cawmic books with gratuitous art and laughable writing I love to bother the Link boards before begging for more money on patreon! " Hey, how is that Patreon going?

Well, not really, I'm just trying not to look butthurt like you .

That's alright, we're not ******s

Looks like Phoenix_Down was right though:

Now, don't get me wrong here, I'm a pretty good player, but people with really spammy and obnoxious playstyles really irk me and are a chore to fight, so I'm here to find the most painful and humiliating ways to beat these spammers as possible. These include:

Bowser Jr. Clown Car Dash spammers
Links. Just ****ing Links.
Spamus
Any Star Fox character.
Those stupid PK Fire to Forward Throw Nesses
And Zero Suit Spamus.

And of course, if you have tips for other spammy characters, that be useful to know, but I just want to make people who play in this way ragequit to give me maximum satisfaction. Any ideas?

Poor Alex wants to make us ragequit. Has anyone suggested crying while playing vidya games and stuffing your face with more cheeseburgers?

 

[InfinityAlex]

Actually, I said they're a chore to fight. I never said they win against me. Also, probably not the best place to bring another thread into to try and start a flame war. Also, the fact that you went out of your way to find my Patreon just to try and get some **** on me is pathetic in of itself, as well as the rest of this whole post, thinking that you can do what the hell you want just because you donate to the site. But that's all OK, because at least you get an A for effort. Have a good one.

 

[Izaw]

Did anyone catch my post ?

 

[Rizen]

Scrubba dub dub.

Take it to the social thread. This is spamming the metagame thread.
http://smashboards.com/threads/link-social-link-checked-the-thread-wow-this-is-a-nice-thread.370194/

 

[Drigo Toes]

Ok guys, I've done some testing recently.

I've noticed Link can drop his bomb after being grabbed and thrown. Now I'm not sure how this worked, cause I've just tested this for about 20min so far. Anyway I had a CF grab me while I had a bomb in my hand, and either Down Throw me or Up Throw me. If I don't use the controller at all, the bomb won't drop. And if it does drop it's very, VERY seldom. However if I would press Z at a certain point of the Up throw or Down throw (not sure of the exact timing, but it's seems to be either just as I get hit OR get launched) the bomb would very OFTEN drop on the ground. I managed to do it 5 times in a row after CF Up threw me. And when I didn't use the controller at all, the bomb seemed to drop maybe 1 out of 20 times.

Has anyone looked into this ?

Effectively DF tried this before... He concluded that the bomb drop against a hit is random, as there is a chance when the bomb drop when you do nothing.
Maybe there is a way that we can increase the probability of dropping the bomb, as you do in your test. We definetively have to look into this.

PD: This InfiniteAlex guy sure needs some attention. I mean, coming here to talk against Link in a Meta threat is definetively a cry for attention. I hope you get some friend dude, you REALLY need one.

 

[Lawz.]

Actually, I said they're a chore to fight. I never said they win against me. Also, probably not the best place to bring another thread into to try and start a flame war. Also, the fact that you went out of your way to find my Patreon just to try and get some **** on me is pathetic in of itself, as well as the rest of this whole post, thinking that you can do what the hell you want just because you donate to the site. But that's all OK, because at least you get an A for effort. Have a good one.

The fact that you felt the need to spam our metagame thread with nonsense is what boggles my mind. And thinking you can do whatever you want because a character style annoys you is laughable.

This thread is a place to discuss information relevant to progressing the metagame of this character for tournament play, not for you to whine. As stated before, go to social.

 

[AtlusKnight]

Ok guys, I've done some testing recently.

I've noticed Link can drop his bomb after being grabbed and thrown. Now I'm not sure how this worked, cause I've just tested this for about 20min so far. Anyway I had a CF grab me while I had a bomb in my hand, and either Down Throw me or Up Throw me. If I don't use the controller at all, the bomb won't drop. And if it does drop it's very, VERY seldom. However if I would press Z at a certain point of the Up throw or Down throw (not sure of the exact timing, but it's seems to be either just as I get hit OR get launched) the bomb would very OFTEN drop on the ground. I managed to do it 5 times in a row after CF Up threw me. And when I didn't use the controller at all, the bomb seemed to drop maybe 1 out of 20 times.

Has anyone looked into this ?

Oh so it is something like what Link had in melee, the timing is strict but I have done that couple times before.
So I wonder how it works in 4
Does the bomb explode after getting launched or does it just sit there?

 

[Drigo Toes]

Oh so it is something like what Link had in melee, the timing is strict but I have done that couple times before.
So I wonder how it works in 4
Does the bomb explode after getting launched or does it just sit there?

Just sit there...

On a side note, SmashHighlights makes a Shoryuken kill percentage on all chars. Link is one of the chars that was harder to kill.
Here is the information:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14lWVRqySD4CXnt4_C9JrqrvxY1jtAuOb3iLX2bhxM_o/edit#gid=0

 

[Dumbfire]

Here's why you should bombslide in a neat compilation. A good half of the clips are from tournament games. It's more than a gimmick guys, go do it.

 

[ama99]

Here's why you should bombslide in a neat compilation. A good half of the clips are from tournament games. It's more than a gimmick guys, go do it.

Very, very nice. Everyone should see this.

Also, is that me getting rekt at about 1:16?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Here's why you should bombslide in a neat compilation. A good half of the clips are from tournament games. It's more than a gimmick guys, go do it.

Added to the AT thread. Great practical demonstrations here. A lot of those examples really highlight the usefulness of being able to 'throw' yourself forwards; that slight boost in speed can really throw off the opponent's spacing calculations, and importantly it leaves you in a neutral position where you can use any option you want unlike running where you have to skid first.

 

[Izaw]

Yo I know you all would like to see a "how to neutral game" with Link, but those things are all individual and different depending on the match-up. It's also literally the better you are, the better neutral game you'll get with every single character. Plus revealing my own neutral game would probably make it easier for people to figure me out later. So not going to cover that in the Art of Link 3.

Anywho. So far I've covered:

Hylian shield (quick one)
Jab (In-depth)
Tether Trump
Up B (Gimmicks, quick one)
Bombs
Downtilt (changes)
Grab (Downthrow + range coverage - In-depth)

Am I missing something here?

Things covered in Art of Link 2 won't be covered here btw.

 

[theopenlink22]

Link was buffed! Hes actually really good now!

 

[Sev3n]

Here's why you should bombslide in a neat compilation. A good half of the clips are from tournament games. It's more than a gimmick guys, go do it.

I have a reply that similarly shows the usefulness of bombsliding starting from my launch at about 2:45. The replay was from friendlies at our weekly about 2 weeks ago.

Props to @link7 for capturing my replays for me.

 

[DUKEL]

@ Izaw Are you going to mention soft tossing bombs with a soft bomb thrown backwards (aka a-stick in reverse)? I've found that running, then JC reverse a-stick throwing is very useful when retreating or even in just normal gameplay. Even if the bomb doesn't hit my opponent, it then lands on the ground. While bouncing it has active hitboxes, and once stopped it makes for a great mindgame/trap situation.

 

[ThirdDay]

Any projectile combos that I should know about? I've read the guides already, but I just want a good and clear description of a combo with projectiles. I usually find myself just throwing them out and not hitting my opponent, rather than thinking it out and really thinking about all the possible situations. If you have anything to say, feel free to tell it to me, I'll accept any help.