Meta Link's Metagame Thread (Informative Quotes Can Be Found in the OP)

[FierceGaiety]

Any projectile combos that I should know about? I've read the guides already, but I just want a good and clear description of a combo with projectiles. I usually find myself just throwing them out and not hitting my opponent, rather than thinking it out and really thinking about all the possible situations. If you have anything to say, feel free to tell it to me, I'll accept any help.

Bomb>like anything almost, Close Range Rang>fair/nair, and uncharged arrows for jab locks on missed techs are what I find the most use for. Rang is dangerous to use up close so bombs are probably better and just remember to shoot an arrow when a tech situation arises.

 

[ThirdDay]

Bomb>like anything almost, Close Range Rang>fair/nair, and uncharged arrows for jab locks on missed techs are what I find the most use for. Rang is dangerous to use up close so bombs are probably better and just remember to shoot an arrow when a tech situation arises.

Sounds good. Thanks for the help!

 

[Koby_T]

Any projectile combos that I should know about? I've read the guides already, but I just want a good and clear description of a combo with projectiles. I usually find myself just throwing them out and not hitting my opponent, rather than thinking it out and really thinking about all the possible situations. If you have anything to say, feel free to tell it to me, I'll accept any help.

Try the Q&A thread, friend. Your post would be more relevant there.

I want to apologize to everyone. Classes hit me like a wall last week and I didn't finish the jab 2 testing I started a couple weeks ago. Unfortunately, I moved out of my apartment today and no longer have anyone to help me finish the cast (unless I can teach my brother how to play).

It can be assumed that I won't be finishing the testing in any reasonable amount of time. If someone would like to finish it on behalf, I would not be offended but rather grateful. How I did the testing was included in my first post about it but feel free to pm me questions. Sorry again

 

[DUKEL]

How's your internet? Could you have a Skype call with one of us and do the testing online if it wasn't too laggy?

 

[Koby_T]

How's your internet? Could you have a Skype call with one of us and do the testing online if it wasn't too laggy?

I moved to a place that has Internet provided by hopes and dreams but I will be able to check for sure a week from tomorrow (complicated living arrangements).

 

[ZSaberLink]

Here's why you should bombslide in a neat compilation. A good half of the clips are from tournament games. It's more than a gimmick guys, go do it.

Awesome video Dumbfire. One nitpick though, you had a typo in the title screen of the video for the word "tributary".

 

[Kyzon Xin]

I've been changing up custom sets since EVO has finished. 1221 is what I've been messing around with due to the new down throw trajectory. It allows for kill combos with down throw to a jumping shocking spin attack. Having the normal bomb also helps with the poor recovery of this spin attack.

Has anyone else tried mixing things up like this yet?

 

[Dumbfire]

Awesome video Dumbfire. One nitpick though, you had a typo in the title screen of the video for the word "tributary".

Yes, it has been a rule since I misspelled words in all other titles for some reason, like "The 'Instute' of Advanced Link Edgeguarding". I'll try and get it right next time >.>

I have a reply that similarly shows the usefulness of bombsliding starting from my launch at about 2:45. The replay was from friendlies at our weekly about 2 weeks ago.

Right, I'll use it in a projected sequel that will arrive for sure now that all our 'ung ones have started bombsliding. I must say though I up bombslide in those situations: that forward fake-out gives a fairly small slide sadly.

I upward bombslide a lot by now: having a bomb in the air often is neat and the slide is huge. Btw, forward bombsliding (any variation) on opponent's shield on BF, having the bomb bounce and land on the platform, then grabbing and throwing the opponent then Z grabbing the bomb and throwing it after him is the greatest thing on earth. Fthrow's new angle actually makes it fairly feasible to hit, or to force them to jump over it. Up Bombslides to Fthrow / Bthrow / Uthrow are also not uncommon, and far from being a silly gimmick I do it all the time: you can even see Scizor do it against Master Zenyou in the video! I also do a lot of Up bombsliding under jumping people, then pivot grabbing (ready to be thrown into the bomb). It's great.

 

[Sev3n]

Yes, it has been a rule since I misspelled words in all other titles for some reason, like "The 'Instute' of Advanced Link Edgeguarding". I'll try and get it right next time >.>

Right, I'll use it in a projected sequel that will arrive for sure now that all our 'ung ones have started bombsliding. I must say though I up bombslide in those situations: that forward fake-out gives a fairly small slide sadly.

I upward bombslide a lot by now: having a bomb in the air often is neat and the slide is huge. Btw, forward bombsliding (any variation) on opponent's shield on BF, having the bomb bounce and land on the platform, then grabbing and throwing the opponent then Z grabbing the bomb and throwing it after him is the greatest thing on earth. Fthrow's new angle actually makes it fairly feasible to hit, or to force them to jump over it. Up Bombslides to Fthrow / Bthrow / Uthrow are also not uncommon, and far from being a silly gimmick I do it all the time: you can even see Scizor do it against Master Zenyou in the video! I also do a lot of Up bombsliding under jumping people, then pivot grabbing (ready to be thrown into the bomb). It's great.

I can't tell you for 100% why I bombslid forward in that situation since it was a while ago, but I think I expected the bomb to hit him because I thought he was going to go low, but then when he didn't go low, I reacted and FSmashed. I may have also wanted to do up but missed the timing. Nowadays I am much more consistent with being able to "Choose" between the fakeout and the up-slide.

I love putting bombs in the air. Especially when recovering, people will often be focused on other things and forget it's there off-screen and run right into it. Even if they do remember it, you can put them in a position where you are guarding horizontal and they must go vertical, but they have to airdodge to avoid the bomb. Punish the airdodge with UAir or Spin attack = profit.

Frame traps are the reason why I play Link. Bombslide forward against their shield, grab, Dthrow, SHFF Nair/Bair (depending on DI) grabs the bomb and launches, bombslide throw the bomb up into them and either hit them with it -> Uair or react to their airdodge with USmash or another grab.

Bombslides are important kiddos. I'll see if I have any more replays later that demo it tonight.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I'd like to re-boot this thread and make the Link boards more productive. I'll be brief because people are lazy.

The second and third posts are currently missing information. We're going to start filling in the gaps, and I'll direct the conversation where I deem necessary.

The second post is about theories on the optimal and most effective way to play Link. There are two sections that have no quotes whatsoever. These are 'Spacing' and 'Returning to the Stage From the Ledge'. On top of this there are a few others that have only one quote, namely, Retreating, Killing, and Defending. Maybe have a quick read of what has been quoted already to get an idea of what you're meant to be talking about, but try not to simply repeat what has been said.

That should do for now. Post on any of these five topics in any way and any order that suits you. If I feel that a topic needs more love I'll let you know, and when I feel we're done we'll move on to post 3.


tl;dr - Make posts about Spacing, Returning to the Stage From the Ledge, Retreating, Killing, and Defending.

 

[Be_Mild]

If you find yourself in a situation where you've been ledge-trumped and have no other option than to re-grab the ledge with your opponent on the stage ready to spike you(with dtilt, dsmash, fsmash, whatever their best move for hitting opponents hanging on the ledge w/o invincibility,) don't forget about your Zair. Zairing in that situation will keep you low enough to avoid the incoming hit and allow you make it onto the stage safely.

 

[8MAN]

If you find yourself in a situation where you've been ledge-trumped and have no other option than to re-grab the ledge with your opponent on the stage ready to spike you, don't forget your Zair. Zairing in that situation will keep you low enough to avoid the incoming hit and allow you make it onto the stage safely.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a delay before you can regrab a ledge with zair? Sure you can instantly refresh it by airdodging before tethering - but do you have enough time to airdodge before you're hit?

 

[Rizen]

tl;dr - Make posts about Spacing, Returning to the Stage From the Ledge, Retreating, Killing, and Defending.

For everything: Link is versitile so mix up your options.

Spacing:
Link has slow frame data but good disjointed attacks. As a rule of thumb try to keep the opponent no closer than the tip of Link's attack. The opponent will try to get in so aiming to hit with the tip of Link's attacks leads to good spacing. Some MUs might have you spacing farther.

Returning From the Ledge:
IMO the quick stand up doesn't help Link as much as other characters due to his slow QCQ. Link doesn't have any perfect ways to climb back on stage but he has a lot of mix ups.
Ledge hops (tap away from the ledge>tap back toward the stage+jump>enter an attack) can be good if the opponent is far enough away but if they hit you you'll be offstage without a 2nd jump. Fair, Nair, Zair, boomerang and arrows all work well from a ledge hop depending on the distance. If you're not being threatened you can ledge hop bomb pull to save time.
Ledge jump is good if the opponent is hanging back on the ground. Bombpulling from a ledge jump gives Link a trump card.
Ledge rolls are best if the opponent uses an aerial to hop offstage or does a long lasting move at the edge.
Ledge attacks aren't great but can be a quick, safer than ledge hop, attack to punish the opponent if they commit to an action.
Mix up recoveries to not be punished.

Retreating:
Zair/Fair from a backwards SH can stop opponents trying to rush Link. Zair with a bomb from a SH will C4 it and make it harder for the opponent to approach. On the ground pivot Ftilt/Fsmash works very well.
If you're a bit farther SH/Jump and throw the boomerang down or pull a bomb.
Platforms are Link's friends (except maybe the SV one that Link can't jump to). Link has good ways to attack below him with bombs and low landing lag so platform camping is often more effective that moving back on a flat surface.

To escape pressure and reset a situation:
Jump/SH Nair, jabs and rolls. Jab 2 cancel>roll away.

Killing:
If the opponent approaches Link you can use defensive options like pivot attacks, punish grabs etc. If Link has to hunt the opponent down it's much harder to kill.
Fake outs: SH Fair can hop over projectiles and attacks and hit with the second swing. Rush>jump>throw bomb down>aerial or footstool lock. Throw bomb and if the opponent has a reflector>dash attack to catch it. Also bomb throw>grab the opponent's shield.
Chains/locks: Jab 2 cancels put Link in a position to read the opponent. Zair/Nair>Land>Dsmash/upB/jab. Bair>land Utilt or upB. Throw bomb down at opponent>footstool>FF Nair>Fsmash or arrow for a lock. Bomb throw>SH Fair/Uair or grab if the opponent shields.
From Grabs:
Grab>Dthrow>buffered dash>Jump>Uair kills at medium-high %s. Uthrow kills after 160%-180% depending on the opponent and Link's rage; sometimes even lower with low ceilings.
Punishes:
Dair kills off the top at high %s like 140% ish and lasts 50 frames- longer than any dodge. Uair outlasts air dodges and punishes platform landings. Dash attack punishes rolls and landings. UpB punishes spot dodges or if the opponent rolls into you. Ftilt punishes ledge hops/stalling and some SHs.
The fastest, safest kill move Link has is Utilt. It can work in most situations. U/Dsmash and UpB start fast but have a lot of endlag if you miss. Fsmash is Link's strongest kill move from a read, it can punish dodges with Fsmash 2 but is very punishable on shields.

Link can also go offstage and intercept the opponent or arrow snipe them.

Defending:
Generally good spacing is the best defense. Platform camping, projectiles, playing passive-aggressively. OoS Link can roll, SH/Jump Nair but it's better that he doesn't get caught in his shield. Jabs are good for stopping rushdown opponents but smashes generally are too unsafe if they wiff. All the retreating stuff could fit here.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

delay before you can regrab a ledge with zair? Sure you can instantly refresh it by airdodging before tethering

What makes you think that?

 

[8MAN]

What makes you think that?

When you grab the ledge, then instantly let go, you can't regrab the ledge with zair.
Edit: I was mistaken, I just recalled posts that talked about airdodging > tether being more consistant for grabbing the ledge

 

[Drigo Toes]

To escape pressure and reset a situation:
Jump/SH Nair, jabs and rolls. Jab 2 cancel>roll away.

It IS important to note that Jabs are not safe on shield, so if you hit your jab against a near shield, you will be punished, sadly enough...

 

[ZSaberLink]

It IS important to note that Jabs are not safe on shield, so if you hit your jab against a near shield, you will be punished, sadly enough...

Even with jab 2 cancel + roll? That's... pretty sad T_T.

 

[Drigo Toes]

Even with jab 2 cancel + roll? That's... pretty sad T_T.

Sadly, yes

 

[Dumbfire]

Your best chance is doing Jab1Jab2 then simply dashing away, if your opponent is slow you can get away with it. Don't trust on it however. The other thing I occasionally do is delay the third jab a lot, sometimes they'll drop shield at the wrong time. The thing is, however, most characters can simply shieldgrab after Jab1, unless properly spaced, and with characters like Bowser with big grab ranges the spacing doesn't even matter.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Ok I'll attempt to keep the topics rolling along. Much of this will be merely a supplement to what has already been said.

Spacing:
As Rizen said the aim is to take advantage of your range and generally hit with the tip of your attacks. What this means in practice is that you have to predict where your opponent will be given their current movement and potential movement options, and what spacing options they'll have when they get there in time to meet your own attacks. Good spacing is particularly important for a character like Link who has to deal with shields a lot as you don't want to always commit to a grab, and the only way to make his other moves safe on shield is to apply proper spacing.
Link's spacing game is actually fairly straight forward, just in terms of what the game-plan is anyway. His moveset out-ranges most characters, so it's not as if he has to transition between out-spacing the opponent's attacks and getting into his own range very often. The majority of the time you can just play the zoning and retreating game while trying not to be baited into whiffing moves that can be punished, but it should be noted that against characters such as Shulk, you will have to play a different spacing game.

Returning from the ledge:
This I feel is very opponent dependent, probably more-so than it is character dependent. A lot of the time you can just react to what the opponent is doing if they showed their hand too early, so consider just sitting on the edge for a moment to see what they'll do. If I could choose I'd usually opt for doing a ledge jump or ledge get-up as they give you control of your character the quickest without having to use up your DJ. On smashville I like doing a ledge jump to immediate DJ backwards onto the platform for example. Ledge roll is something I'll do on reaction if I see the opponent look like he's going off-stage either for a trump or a stage spike or if they've used an option that covers the ledge jump but is very committed. Ledge attack is something that again I'll do on reaction if I see the opponent over commit to an attack to cover ledge get-up or ledge jump or staying on the ledge too long, and with there being no slow and terrible version of this beyond 100% anymore that's one less thing to think about. I'm honestly not a fan of ledge hopping. If the opponent is far enough away for me to feel comfortable doing it, I'd much sooner just ledge jump or ledge get-up and get it over with.
One thing that should be mentioned is z-dropping the bomb out of a ledge jump (i.e. without Zair coming out). If the opponent is too close to the edge for whatever reason it is a very quick and safe option.

Retreating:
Just to add to what Rizen has said, retreating JC throws back at the opponent are amazing, as are retreating pivot F-tilts. If you can help it, try to dash away for retreating purposes instead of rolling away. Dashing is slightly faster and you can always shield after the initial dash and you have many other options still available to you during it, but rolling leaves you vulnerable if the opponent calls you out on it and runs straight through. This isn't to say that rolling is completely without it's place; it does get him out of harms way at least initially much quicker due to the invulnerability frames; but if you're forced to roll, that means you messed up imo, and so you should be aiming to avoid the situations in which you feel that it is your best option.

Killing:
Rather than outright forcing the kill in the neutral, you're better off going out of your way to first put the opponent in an awkward situation and then capitalise on this with the finishing blow. This is mostly because of the way Link is designed and is a much better frame of mind to have when you're feeling the pressure of needing to take the opponent's stock.

Defence:
[Just to clarify what this section is about, it's broadly about dealing with the opponent's offence, so you're no longer in a neutral situation, they are on the attack, and the goal is to reset back to neutral, counter, or avoid the heavier punish.]
When being comboed you want to make sure your DJ counts. Pull it out too early or use it too predictably and you'll lose it. Sometimes you need to assess whether it's better to take the hit rather than avoid it and leave yourself open to something worse, whereas some hits must be avoided at all costs, even if it means doing something unconventional or that is usually a bad option.
With strings of attacks, sometimes offence is the best defence, e.g. throwing out a Nair to break a string of attacks if the opponent is way too keen and isn't backing off.
If you're in the air in a juggle situation, remember that airdodging is a good option if you're able to fast fall airdodge and tether the ledge. Airdodging will not cancel the fast fall in the same way that aerials will, so you can fast fall airdodge and most characters will be unable to keep up with you. In a pinch, if the opponent is up too high especially if they're floaty, fast falling into an airdodge should get you back to the ground safely. Otherwise if they want to cover your landing and don't jump up to meet you, pull a bomb and use it to help cover your landing.
Combo DI is very important here. Usually you want to be DIing up and away from the opponent (relative to the direction the attack naturally sends you in) to break out of their offence sooner, but sometimes you can catch your opponent out by deliberately DIing in an unconventional way if they weren't expecting it which can avoid the follow up they otherwise would have gotten (if the combo window is tight and they don't have time to react).

 

[Dumbfire]

One thing that should be mentioned is z-dropping the bomb out of a ledge jump (i.e. without Zair coming out). If the opponent is too close to the edge for whatever reason it is a very quick and safe option.

Just what I was going to say, and here's a brief video on it, with thanks to @ Drigo Toes for reminding us of it, @link7 for doing some recording for me, and the very special guest!

As Link you'll often get to the ledge with a bomb, which in some ways limits and in others expand his options. Ledgejump Z-drop covers opponents under you on the stage and on the ledge without their shield up, and ledgehop bomb throw covers a lot too. Ledge-rolls covered by a bomb explosion are also significantly safer. I am not fond of jumping from the ledge with a bomb still in hand: the opponent can aerial on reaction and the bomb will explode during your hitstun. Normal get-up is by far the safest this game, and a lot of play you'll see is just a psychological game where you are simply waiting for the right time to normal get-up, possibly risking a trump. See DKWill playing DK without customs to get an idea of that. Ledgehops are essentially bad this game: the only reason they were so common in Brawl was because you retained invincibility. Ledgehop Zair can catch off-guard, and I ledgehop Fair when there's a unique opening (i.e. in a rush, not when the opponent is actively trying to ledgetrap me).

Ledgejump bomb pull is a silly habit which keeps appearing with certain people: a ledgejump is dangerous enough as it is, don't make it more so with the incredibly slow bomb pull animation. When I played a Diddy from the UK in tournament he explicitly told me never to do it again, since he got a free Uair both times which helped him immensely. You should also be careful not to form habits when trying to avoid a trump. When avoiding a trump you can buffer a get-up attack, get-up roll or jump. A get-up attack can still be punished easily, but mix up the other two. Fairly often I trick people by trumping them the first time, then later, sometimes immediately as they return to the ledge, reading their buffered ledge roll, after which they'll eat an Fsmash.

 

[Woker!]

Hey Link mains :D

So, since smash 4 demo came out on 3ds, y discover this technique, i thought it would be a technique everybody would be doing, BUT even today, I havent seen any Link main doing it, not even Izaw explain it at his video, so yeah, here it is: "Links FFBD"... yeah, clever name...

this technique can true combo at low % into :
-Jabs
-Grab (as you can see in the video)
-Utilt
-Ftilt
-Bair
-Nair
-Dair
-Usmash (as you can see in the video)

I think most of this stops working at around 90%...

Now, after 35%:
-Fair

So yeah, I think its a VERY useful technique, I use link, and this technique has been very useful since the demo... yeah, how? just imagine you are above an opponent, you have a bomb, you ffbd, if he shield your bomb, it will not explode, it will just bounce at the shield, so, you can just roll away or something like that, BUT if the opponen tries to do an attack, your bombo will explode and then you can follow up to anything at the list above...

-NOTE: if this technique had been disscused before, please let me know.

Heres the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipO7YqUnGlM

 

[Dumbfire]

Hey Link mains :D

So, since smash 4 demo came out on 3ds, y discover this technique, i thought it would be a technique everybody would be doing, BUT even today, I havent seen any Link main doing it, not even Izaw explain it at his video, so yeah, here it is: "Links FFBD"... yeah, clever name...

this technique can true combo at low % into :
-Jabs
-Grab (as you can see in the video)
-Utilt
-Ftilt
-Bair
-Nair
-Dair
-Usmash (as you can see in the video)

I think most of this stops working at around 90%...

Now, after 35%:
-Fair

So yeah, I think its a VERY useful technique, I use link, and this technique has been very useful since the demo... yeah, how? just imagine you are above an opponent, you have a bomb, you ffbd, if he shield your bomb, it will not explode, it will just bounce at the shield, so, you can just roll away or something like that, BUT if the opponen tries to do an attack, your bombo will explode and then you can follow up to anything at the list above...

-NOTE: if this technique had been disscused before, please let me know.

Heres the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipO7YqUnGlM

Don't worry, we know about it! We use it quite a bit to break up dash grabs as seen here and also here from an empty short hop. Catana is a Link very fond of doing Z-drop bomb trickery, check her Link out on Youtube (just search "catana link") for some neat usage of it.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I've updated the OP's up to this post.

We may as well move on to filling in the gaps in the third post. There are a few of Link's moves that haven't had anything substantial said specifically about them yet. What we are looking for is anything and everything to do with the way we use and are able to use the specific moves. Maybe have a look through what is already there for the other moves to get an idea of what kind of scope we're looking at here.

The moves that have yet to be given their own spoiler tag section are:
- Dash attack
- D-smash
- U-smash
- F-smash
- U-tilt
- U-air
- Dair
- Tether (as opposed to Zair)
- Aerial Spin Attack
- Custom variations of the spin attack
- Power bow
- Giant Bombs
- Gale, Non-Gale and Ripping Boomerang
- And I guess it wouldn't hurt to have a general post or two about all the throws as well.

As you can see, there are a lot of topics to choose from. The good news is once we get these filled in we would have effectively put together a sort of community guide in the second and third posts of the OP. So that'll be nice.

 

[Dumbfire]

I was at a tournament yesterday and played a lot on stream, so I could redo the Z-drop video with more clips, and a commentator who was, uh, fairly impressed by it:

The bomb-drop to footstool to dair kill was so sexy I'm still wet. Thanks again to @ Drigo Toes for bringing it up and @ L LoZ-Girl for doing the narration!

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I was at a tournament yesterday and played a lot on stream, so I could redo the Z-drop video with more clips, and a commentator who was, uh, fairly impressed by it:

The bomb-drop to footstool to dair kill was so sexy I'm still wet. Thanks again to @ Drigo Toes for bringing it up and @ L LoZ-Girl for doing the narration!

Alright it's official; I'm going to make this it's own separate AT instead of just having a little mention of it in the Note of the z-drop. I'll add this video too.

 

[LoZ-Girl]

I used it a lot today, it is really useful! Nice video, I can't believe you used the clip at the end xD

 

[kxiong92]

I found another kill option for Link. Zair to upb. It works until 250% on Mario. You can do it at a even higher percent but it is harder and you have to be closer. It registered as a combo. Judging from my spacing, it seemed to be safe on shield. Can someone help me confirm if it is safe on shield?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Ok so FSK and I have been doing work in PM's and the upshot is that there are a few very important things we've noted that will affect how you should be playing Link from now on. I believe FSK plans to make a vid at some point, but for those who want to know now, read on.
Also, for those who don't have the time/patience to know the reasons why, feel free to go to the 'tl;dr' at the end so you can miss all the good bits.

Right so a little while ago FSK checked the bomb throws and found that the dash throw is actually the quickest.
Just before I go on to the implications of this, because this is kind of a big deal, I'll just double check everything.

Standing Forwards Throw: Explosion on frame 8, Shield visible on frame 22. End lag is 14 frames.
[Note that the explosion hitbox is activated one frame after the bomb detects a hurtbox, and note also that the shield only becomes visible on frame two of the shield animation but is active on the first frame, so for the purposes of this test which is to find out how much end lag there is, we could use frame 7 and 21 if we wanted to be technically correct but it makes no difference right now; later I'll use the correct frames when talking about being able to act on the first possible frame though.]

Standing Smash Throw Forwards: Same as above.

Standing Up Throw: Explosion on frame 12, Shield visible on frame 22. End lag 10 frames.

Standing Down Throw: Explosion on frame 6, (and using the 'bombslide down throw fake-out' to check) Shield visible on frame 20. End lag 14 frames.

Standing Back Throw: Explosion on frame 10, Shield visible on frame 22. End lag 12 frames.

JC Throw: Same as Standing X Throw only you'd add on at least one frame for the jump and of course any dashing before that. So e.g for a JC forward throw, ignoring the dash for now, the explosion is on frame 9 and the shield is visible on frame 23 at best)

Dash Throw: Excluding the amount of time it takes to Dash, Explosion on frame 5, Shield visible on frame 20. End lag is 15 frames.
Including the amount of time it takes to Dash, You can dash throw the bomb on frame 6 at the earliest (otherwise you get a standing throw), so then the explosion would be on frame 11 etc.

Item discard: Just because I'm curious. Shield visible on frame 25.


So what does this all mean?

If you are dashing forwards and want to throw the bomb forwards, assuming you don't want to soft throw the bomb to have it land on the ground, use the dash throw, not a JC throw forwards. It hits almost twice as quickly (explosion on frame 5 as opposed to frame 9 at best), the overall animation is 3 frames quicker, and the end lag is only 1 frame worse. If it hits, the forward momentum of the dash throw will set you up better for combos. If you're concerned about it missing (or being shielded) and then being too close to the opponent, perhaps you shouldn't be running forwards in the first place.

As FSK noted, if you do non-fake-out variations of the bombslide, logically the animation will be over sooner because otherwise you're just delaying the second throw animation by a couple of frames give or take. This means that you are able to act out of the slide sooner.
One might be tempted to think then that the best forward throwing bombslide variation will be the non-fake-out forward throw bombslide. However, this is not so obviously the case.
Best case scenario for the bombslide forward-throw: you can cancel the dash throw animation on frame 1 (I'll explain later), that means that the explosion will be on frame 9 (at best) and you'll be able to act on frame 22. Compare this to doing a Bombslide Down-throw fake-out where the explosion is on frame 5 and if the down-throw is done on the first possible frame (frame 3) you'll be able to act on frame 22 as well. These are the two undisputed best possible forward throw bombslide options in terms of frame data, and arguably the down-throw fake out one is better as it gets the bomb out sooner and covers more of your slide, but I'd say that's up for debate.


But wait, there's more.

At a later date, FSK PM'd me saying that he believed that it was easier to do non-fake-out bombslides with the A + B (set to smash) method than it was to do them with the Grab + A method. I looked into it and he was totally right.

I found out that I had made a bit of an oversight when writing up the bombslide information in the AT thread. Those of you who are familiar with it will know that one of the things I wrote was that if you use the 'Grab then Up A' input method, you only have one frame in which you can do the second throw of the non-fake-out bombslides, frame 2. If you input 'Up A' on frame 1 of the dash throw animation, the dash throw will not be cancelled. But I also said that this strangely does not apply to 'Grab then C-stick Up'. Hitting the C-stick up on the first frame of the dash throw will cancel it, meaning that by using the c-stick you have a two frame window to do the Bomb Slide Up throw, but sadly this did not apply to the forward throw or back throw.
What I failed to realise was that by using the 'Hold A hit Up B' method, this worked the same way that the C-stick did, that is, the B button can be hit on the first frame of the dash throw and it will cancel it. And this can be applied to the forward and back throw bombslides to make them twice as easy because now you have a two frame window instead of one.

I'll make all the necessary corrections to the AT thread as outlined above probably tomorrow when I get some time. Until then, feel free to discuss, or better still, get out there and play Link to frame perfection.


tl;dr
- When running forwards and throwing a bomb forwards, assuming you don't want to soft throw the bomb, use dash throw, not JC throw forwards.
- When bombsliding forwards and throwing the bomb forwards, use either the bombslide forward throw or the bombslide down throw fake out.
- When doing the non-fake-out variations of the bombslide (bombslide up throw, bombslide forward throw, and bombslide back throw) use the 'Hold A then Hit Up B' method (with the special smash option turned on of course).

 

[Dumbfire]

Does anybody know how active the Usmash hitbox is? Numerous times now I have stood a mild distance away from the ledge and Usmashed to catch a roll, but then instead the opponent did a normal get-up and I got them anyway. It's a pretty useful way to cover two options, but I wonder if I haven't been lucky with getting the normal get-up.

I have been thinking more about ledge-trapping with Link, and applying it too. Link is disadvantaged when ledgetrapping because his grab is slow -- most characters can stand on the ledge with shield up and respond to ledge roll and normal get-up easily, but if we grab seeing normal get-up coming the opponent can usually buffer a spotdodge and punish us instead. I mention especially normal get-up and ledge roll because a few characters, most notably Luigi, generally go for the grounded get-ups because of their aerial mobility and properties.

The great thing about evidently ledge-trapping is that the opponent will eventually start to idle on the ledge, which adds the possibility of ledge-trumping. Link's trumping game is good because Ftilt, Dash attack and DSmash will all hit opponents on the ledge without invincibility, and Ftilt usually covers jumping back on stage immediately too. If they jump back you can also ledgejump then dair spike on the right timing. Now if the opponent sees your trump coming he can buffer either a get-up attack (bad option, you can still ledgehop attack for punish then), roll or jump. Most people instinctively roll, but this is the worse option. Mix the two up wisely, but prefer jumping. The amount of turn-around Fsmash reads I've had because Links wanted to avoid a trump is staggering. You can even do this with a tether trump -- just hold on the ledge, make the opponent think you will go for a very transparent tether trump then tether cancel or get up quickly on the stage and catch the roll or jump -- again, mainly a roll.

 

[Dark_Link05]

I prefer the turn-around F-tilt if I'm right next to the ledge and read a roll get-up. I usually get them with a D-smash if they have high percentages. Although I'm unsure of the specifics of the hitbox, the suction for the hits does seem to catch opponents by surprise. It seems to do particularly well with small characters. I am curious about how active the hitbox is as well, but after googling around, I can't find anything on how to test it.

With regards to the best pressure on ledge-trapping an opponent, I like to get a little more than Link's back roll away from the ledge, so that I can pull a bomb and limit options on what they can do. If they idle long enough, throwing the bomb at the corner of the stage and following up with a DA as they pop up from the blast seems to be a guaranteed kill move above ~60% for medium-heavy characters. I wish I could figure out how to test this stuff so I could give hard data, but as of now all I can do is agree with you @ Dumbfire and give a few of my favorite options as examples.

 

[Dumbfire]

Ftilt at the ledge beats a ton of options, but the problem is normal get-up is by far the best and if they do that while you Ftilt they have a good punish (namely, a grab near the ledge, which is horrible). I've got some great kills with it in tourney too, granted, because people DIed it bad and it got me gimps, but I'm not too fond of it for that reason.

 

[Drigo Toes]

Ftilt at the ledge beats a ton of options, but the problem is normal get-up is by far the best and if they do that while you Ftilt they have a good punish (namely, a grab near the ledge, which is horrible). I've got some great kills with it in tourney too, granted, because people DIed it bad and it got me gimps, but I'm not too fond of it for that reason.

Take un consideration that stand get up have a 1 frame window of punish before the shield actives. A dair or a well timed Ftilt still can punish stand get up from the ledge...

 

[Dumbfire]

Of course it can, but it's a short timeframe and Ftilt is a terrible option to get that 1 frame. Too often Links kind of spam ftilt at the ledge, missing the normal get-up which gets them punished in horrible ways.

 

[Drigo Toes]

Of course it can, but it's a short timeframe and Ftilt is a terrible option to get that 1 frame. Too often Links kind of spam ftilt at the ledge, missing the normal get-up which gets them punished in horrible ways.

But Dair works splendidly well...

 

[Rizen]

Doesn't Dair>drift offstage beat every ledge option besides roll?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Does anybody know how active the Usmash hitbox is? Numerous times now I have stood a mild distance away from the ledge and Usmashed to catch a roll, but then instead the opponent did a normal get-up and I got them anyway. It's a pretty useful way to cover two options, but I wonder if I haven't been lucky with getting the normal get-up.

The first swing of U-smash hits the furthest horizontally behind Link even though the third swing visually looks like it hits further. The first swing of U-smash also hits the furthest horizontally in front of Link even though visually the second hit does.

In order to maximise the distance your hurtbox can be from the ledge, it is best to be facing away from the ledge as the first swing of U-smash hits further behind Link compared to in front.

Facing away from the ledge vs Mario, if you stand in roughly the right spot (you have about a Link's foot's length to move around in), you will be out of range of ledge attack, within range to hit him out of ledge get-up with the first hit of U-smash, and of course easily within range to catch him out of roll.

If you stand in the same correct spot as mentioned earlier facing away from the ledge and do the U-smash on frame 20 or 21 of Mario's ledge option (whatever it may be), you will hit him out of his ledge get-up into shield option, his ledge roll option, and his ledge attack option. (Even though there is only one frame of vulnerability, you have a two frame window because the U-smash hitbox covers that frame of vulnerability for two frames.)

If you are slightly too late the ledge roll and attack options will still easily be covered, but obviously Mario will be able to shield the first hit of U-smash from the ledge get-up; that is of course, if he does hold shield. Link is far enough away that maybe some people would think that they are out of range of U-smash.
Too early, again the ledge attack and roll option will be covered, but the first hit of U-smash will miss the ledge get up entirely and you'll be punished.

Keep in mind that there will be slight differences between each character.

Edit: To clarify though, I'm not saying the U-smash is necessarily a good option for covering ledge options because it's certainly not a safe option if you miss for whatever reason. I'm just saying that if practiced enough so as to develop good timing and spacing, it's a surprisingly decent option just because it covers a lot of options by itself. I don't actually use it so I'm in no real position to speak to how effective or practical or realistic it is. Make what you will from the bare facts I've presented.

With regards to the best pressure on ledge-trapping an opponent, I like to get a little more than Link's back roll away from the ledge, so that I can pull a bomb and limit options on what they can do.

Just note that if the opponent does a ledge get-up into shield, the bomb is unable to hurt them directly. The bomb takes a frame to detect an enemy hurtbox before it explodes on the following frame, so because there is only one frame of vulnerability in a ledge get-up to shield, a direct hit will never harm them and always be powershielded. An indirect hit is different of course.

 

[Rizen]

This is a video that applies to everyone on wall-teching and why you aren't allowed to do it in hitlag.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8rpifNUEYo
^Worth watching. For Link, this means we have to be careful recovering with bomb explosions under the stage.

 

[Xephilon]

Guys, just to ask, has anyone mentioned the Dair lag cancel?

Not sure if you guys know about it (32 pages of posts is just too long to read...) but there's a way to cancel Dairs lag as you hit the floor.

So I was playing FG this morning and something odd happened. I was playing against a Link player and he threw out the boomerang then did a Dair. Right as he landed, the boomerang reached him and the Dair end lag got cancelled. I'm pretty sure he didn't notice cause we had more matches after and he never did it again so I thought it was a glitch until I tried it out myself on training and it works. I can jab/dodge roll/tilt as soon as I catch it. Has this been found before? so far, it only works on Dair.

P.S. positing this on the A.T. thread as well see if anyone knows about it there.

 

[kxiong92]

Guys, just to ask, has anyone mentioned the Dair lag cancel?

Not sure if you guys know about it (32 pages of posts is just too long to read...) but there's a way to cancel Dairs lag as you hit the floor.

So I was playing FG this morning and something odd happened. I was playing against a Link player and he threw out the boomerang then did a Dair. Right as he landed, the boomerang reached him and the Dair end lag got cancelled. I'm pretty sure he didn't notice cause we had more matches after and he never did it again so I thought it was a glitch until I tried it out myself on training and it works. I can jab/dodge roll/tilt as soon as I catch it. Has this been found before? so far, it only works on Dair.

P.S. positing this on the A.T. thread as well see if anyone knows about it there.

It's already been known for quite some time now. It is actually in the AT thread.