Link's Match Up, Stage Counterpicks, And Bans Discussion #2 - Samus

[Punishment Divine]

Is this guy trying to debate Mario's ability to gimp Link with Kirin, someone who MAINS BOTH CHARACTERS and gimps AND recovers well?

Dude, you're on drugs LOL. Play my Mario, I don't even play him that much, I just play Kirin all the time. See how often you make it back on the stage

 

[Blubba_Pinecone]

Legan ain't here.

Anywhoo, don't doubt Kirin's knowledge of the match, he probably understands it better than everyone here. I can say that with certainty. If not Kirin that either Deva, Arkive, or possibly myself.

 

[Pazx]

No one's overrating Mario's gimping abilities. You're failing to realize how much trouble they give horrible recoveries like yours. Oh and if you get predictable with your tether recovery and Mario picks up on it he can simply run off stage and Bair, Nair, or Uair you out of it and then get onto the ledge which WILL result in a loss of a stock for you. Link's tether is a horrible recovery option in this game due to the fact it will only latch onto the ledge which leaves him very open to run off aerial gimps.

Not when you Zair when still being knocked back. You can survive to insane percentages doing that

Oh and chris, no offense but I somehow doubt you were very good with mario if you are saying that he isn't a good GIMPer. lol, really... You can't deny that mario can gimp.

... These boards are mostly dead, aren't they... *sigh*

~Twilighted.

 

[Bandit_Kieth]

i hope they dont completely die, im passionate towards link, its just that i dont really contribute anything because im likely to get flamed or pointed and laughed at for being wrong just as some others do.

Not when you Zair when still being knocked back. You can survive to insane percentages doing that

only if its completely horizontal so you're practically skidding along the stage floor. lol, i've never been in the situation where that happens D:

 

[chris the brawler]

i do that all the time, when you first starting doing it right it's pretty easy. and for the last time nobody wins a match with good gimping only, mario isn't so hard to gimp himself lol.

btw stop arguing with ME, its getting pretty anoying

 

[JaggerG]

Guys, Chris has a point. It is getting pretty annoying. He's a pretty funny guy, but sometimes there's such a thing as too much.

I may not use Mario very much, but I've played a pretty good Mario that actually can gimp and stage-spike consistently. I agree that Link's recovery is pretty bad, and Mario is definitely faster significantly. I also get caught in that **** u-tilt combo a lot. I think Link's range and strength are a major plus for him, though.

As far as his edgeguarding, I don't think you guys give Link enough credit. A perfectly placed boomerang can nudge Mario back, sometimes too far for him to recover. His n-air and b-air are pretty easy to get hits in, too, although it doesn't really prevent recovery much. I notice you did mention the z-air, but yeah, it can be tough to recover from. But I'm not quite sure if you guys realize that in this game, Link can actually recover from even a short-hop d-air. I do it all the time, and only really die because of it if I'm having a really off day and do something stupid like side-b instead of up. >_<

Given all the advantages Link has, I have to say it's 45/55 at least, 50/50 at most. Admittedly, Mario's favor. :^(

Also I thought I read the matchup for Link/Metaknight is at most 40/60. Is that pretty much all because of gimping? I've played a couple decent metaknights, and had less trouble against them than I did against Falcos or my friend's Toon Link. O_o That gimping is incredible, I've seen, so I'm guessing that and the speed are the tremendous factors. I just haven't been to many tournys so I haven't experienced it enough first-hand.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, I'm gonna have to agree on banning BattleField. I've hated that stage using Link since last March. Yeah...the higher ground is a lie. I haven't played many non-neutral stages though, so I'm not sure about the best counterpick. Personally, I prefer the air Final Destination against Marios. I have a personal disadvantage on Smashville, though, because of that freaking balloon. IT'S SO ALLURING! I MUST GIVE CHASE!

 

[chris the brawler]

yeah, thats pretty much what i've been trying to say. ^_^

 

[chris the brawler]

Legan ain't here.

Anywhoo, don't doubt Kirin's knowledge of the match, he probably understands it better than everyone here. I can say that with certainty. If not Kirin that either Deva, Arkive, or possibly myself.

1. sorry for dp'ing

2.

There are no new vids being posted, i might take the list from aib and post it in here. Im still here at swf, I just dont bother with the link boards as much because theres no one here.

3. when i say Legan is still here i dont say it to be funny.

4. your pretty anoying, did you know that? lulz

 

[KirinBlaze]

Being easily gimped is all you need to have a disadvantageous match-up ratio in this game. Recovery is the only reason Link is where he is on the tier list now. Yeah, he's got great range, KO potential, a very good projectile game but it's all overshadowed by the fact that if you're knocked too far off stage Link isn't going to make it back. So when you com across a character who is extremely good at gimping and is a very important part of their metagame then you're really not going to have such an easy time. Yes you have range and projectiles, but Mario has the means to get by them and get inside you and get you off stage, granted he won't be gimping you at horribly low %'s unless you slip up offstage when you reach those mid %'s and his attacks start throwing you around more, knocking you offstage, you can expect and should expect having a difficult time coming back with such bad recovery options.

 

[chris the brawler]

ummm... sure.

 

[Matt07]

When all Mario has left to do is up B you can hit either hit him with a b-air stage spike (it does stage spike right?), and when he's at 100%+ just go for a d-air, easy K.O.

For stages I dunno Link's own me on Battlefield, Link can easily camp here with all the multiple platforms. Ban Rainbow Cruise, our else we'll get a lot more opportunities to Cape/Gimp you. I think Yoshi's Island Brawl wouldn't be too bad of a stage choice (it'll take Mario forever to get a vertical K.O move here, only relying on fsmash, or dsmash for K.O's), BF, Norfair (.)

 

[KirinBlaze]

When all Mario has left to do is up B you can hit either hit him with a b-air stage spike (it does stage spike right?), and when he's at 100%+ just go for a d-air, easy K.O.

For stages I dunno Link's own me on Battlefield, Link can easily camp here with all the multiple platforms. Ban Rainbow Cruise, our else we'll get a lot more opportunities to Cape/Gimp you. I think Yoshi's Island Brawl wouldn't be too bad of a stage choice (it'll take Mario forever to get a vertical K.O move here, only relying on fsmash, or dsmash for K.O's), BF, Norfair (.)

Yeah, Bair can stage spike but Mario's UpB has a disjointed hit box and it's pretty fast and has A LOT of priority. Timing this Bair stage spike isn't very easy. Link has a hard time on stages with platforms because they can hamper his projectile game, double draw, triple draw, things that like are hurt severely by arrows getting caught in platforms and stuff like that. There's really only one safe place on battlefield to do these kinds of things which is the very middle, and no place on Yoshi's thanks to the middle platform's size and ability to tilt which can also hurt Link's use of bombs. Mario excels on stages with platforms with the ability to abuse his great and fast aerial game from underneath and can also use this to set up for jab locks if he Uair's you while you're shielding on the very end of either side of the platform. A stage like Final Destination or Smashville is ideal for Link due to the room he has to camp projectiles and space himself away from his opponents. Link also does very well on Rainbow Cruise, but Mario does better so ban that right away. Levels like Pokemon Stadium 1 and Halberd can help both characters with their small ceilings and blast zones to the side to make it easier to KO opponents and with Link's great KO potential he can KO some foes rather early.

Mario has a a decent camping game as well with fireballs, the cape, and FLUDD. Stage counter picking for this match up is pretty even with the exception of Mario doing better on Battlefield, Rainbow Cruise, and I'd say Yoshi's Island too due to how much more it hurts Link then Mario.

 

[chris the brawler]

Mario's up B is too fast. i would rather try to bomb spike him, or go for a N-air before he uses up B. But i would say Battlefield would be a good stage, the cape messes up the arrows already and the boomerang shouldn't be affected much also the platforms are great for bomb-mindgames since you are hit if it explodes on a platform above you.

 

[Punishment Divine]

lolz. You see THIS?

This is the status you guys are headed to.

Stop while you're ahead

 

[JaggerG]

No Chris, the cape isn't gonna block 100% of the projectiles just because it exists. You can sometimes still use them to psych players out, just much more sparingly. Also, the platforms DO give the boomerang trouble sometimes. The platforms also interrupt a lot of Link's aerials. Sure, you can give some players an overcomfortable feeling under platforms and come in d-airing at an angle, KOing them in the feet. Still, the platforms are at least as advantageous for Mario as they are for Link, and certainly more of a disadvantage for Link than they are for Mario.

Also I kind of feel ignorant saying this even though I haven't much tourny experience, but I still think gimping's overrated. You still have to knock players off the stage to be able to edgeguard, and a lot of the time, good DI can save them from flying too far. Yes, Link does have issues recovering once he's that far off, but to get him that far off is the majority of the game. It's generally harder to land a good smash attack, so people tend to rack up a lot of damage on Link using quicker attacks before actually being able to smash him out, and so many of Link's moves enable him to land less hits and still keep up in %. As long as Link is further from the edge, it's gonna be harder to get him off of it.

 

[Bandit_Kieth]

it's inevitable though, we know that if we're knocked off screen we arent coming back 90% of the time. gimping is his best weapon against us.

and as jagger said, the cape isnt stopping everything, and if it does get reflected just shield.. it isnt much of a problem (or i dont seem to think it is) correct me if im wrong.

im just putting in my two cents (even if im wrong)

we'll just have to accept it, mario has the better hand of the ratio.. but as people have said before, it depends on the people playing.

 

[KirinBlaze]

and as jagger said, the cape isnt stopping everything, and if it does get reflected just shield.. it isnt much of a problem (or i dont seem to think it is) correct me if im wrong.

Well it depends on what we cape, an arrow can be easily shielded after being caped unless you've charged it fully or close to fully charged in which case it may come back at you a bit too fast, it also depends on your distance too. From far away, no the cape isn't going to cause you much problems other then you not racking up damage. Bombs can't be deflected from the front after they've been out for a few seconds after the throw, they have to be caped immediately to be sent back at you. Caping the Gale Boomerang however can really hurt you. It will out prioritize Link's arrow's and blow away Link's bombs and will even push Link himself away. If you get caught in this and get blown offstage it could possibly lead to a gimp or edge hog.

 

[Bandit_Kieth]

^ ah cool, thanks for clearing that up for me :D

 

[JaggerG]

A caped rang can't really send Link flying that far off the edge. If anything it's gonna make him hang on the ledge. Sure it's dangerous if you use your boomerang during your recovery and it gets caped back (although I think in some cases it may send you UP, so it improves your chance to recover), but if Link's off the edge, he's already pretty helpless.

Also, I forgot to mention the boomerang bounce off the edge as an edgeguard. It's like a more complicated FLUDD that sends you back further than it does up, due to the angle it's flying at.

Also, it should be noted for Mario's intending to fight a Link, even though Link does have pretty crap recovery, a good Link can change up the timing of his spin-attack and A) manage to hit you right after your edge-hog invincibility runs out, stage-spiking you to death, or B) hitting you if you jump after him, before you think to attack. It may be a relatively bad recovery, but it's still a pretty dangerous attack. That last hit is pretty strong. The math says Mario's got it, but it's definitely not an easy match if Link gets clever, so keep on your toes.

 

[DarkDragonShadowLance]

Off topic but, I support your signature. xD

I agree also, Please Ban Teh Gaymen***

 

[Blubba_Pinecone]

1. sorry for dp'ing

2.

3. when i say Legan is still here i dont say it to be funny.

4. your pretty anoying, did you know that? lulz

Legan having few to any recent posts doesn't cover the fact that he's virtually non-existant compared to how he used to be.

I never said you were trying to be funny.

If I'm annoying, I would hate to know what you are. Keep the topic to Mario vs Link in here; not your opinion of somebody who actually contributes to the discussion.

 

[chris the brawler]

Legan having few to any recent posts doesn't cover the fact that he's virtually non-existant compared to how he used to be.

I never said you were trying to be funny.

If I'm annoying, I would hate to know what you are. Keep the topic to Mario vs Link in here; not your opinion of somebody who actually contributes to the discussion.

did i say that? im sorry lol, i had a really bad day
didn't mean to act like a deuchebag....

i think gale-edgeguarding is a good option against a recovering Mario. im not sure what happens if a returning boomerang is caped, probably nothing too bad

 

[Matt07]

Gale edgeguarding is good against Mario, also the 'bomb' drop (where you drop a bomb on the ledge, and you hang off at the edge with your z-air) it'll force Mario to hit the bomb, making him eat extra damage.

 

[chris the brawler]

also i would suggest fighting really aggresive to minimize the chance of being being gimped by fludd. i just did a tourney match agains Mario, i assumed he would try to gimp me so i played so agressive that he never got the chance to fully charge it.

dude your sig!!!! it's so true :')

 

[chris the brawler]

oh, Samus is intresting. the thing i find most special about her is the ability that cancels all the ending lag of here arials when she land. Also like Link she has a big variety of projectiles, the rockets can be very anoying somethimes and the... the... ball like thing she shoots with be is very dangerouse when fully loaded. the rockets isn't really much to be afraid of, they're pretty easy to stop using Zair, Nair, bombs, arrows, boomerang, etc. also figuring when she's going to fire the ball thingy isn't so hard and when she does just stand there or crouch (i would say crouch since the idle animation somethimes make you vulnerable) il post more later.

 

[Tektite]

Though I would say her most dangerous range attack would be her Zair. It has farther range than Link's and is equally powerful. It's not something to mess around with.

 

[Legan]

The advantages samus has over link is the range with her zair, her aerial game and her gimping ability, all her other attributes seem to hinder her. I think spam wise they go pretty equal but dodging her projectiles is pretty hard. Though link has way way way more killing potential than samus, shes just plain weak. Not to mention shes not that heavy, at the end of the day it's still in her favor because her projectiles deal alot of damage when they connect and she has alot of aerial prowess which actually is one of links weaknesses. ill go 60:40 samus.

 

[Link_hero_Tubs]

^ i agree but id like to say that its like 55:45 samus which is almost no different. my friend mains samus and i play it all the time. bombs are a good way to set up an approach. bombs can stop a fully charged ball and goes right through her missles. her zair is kind of a pain but if u know its comin an arrow, bomb, or just simple powershield is good enough to stop it. Dair has ridiculous priority over her aerials and as long as u take a lil timeto watch a samus users general strategy ... zair missles grab or zair missles air approach etc .. u can get land a " random " dair. ive noticed that switching up camping and bein super aggressive like.. rushing in as much as u can really throws of samus players, alot of em try to short hop dair or just try to run away but you just gotta keep her on her toes. but yeah only reason i give samus an advtange is because like legan said if she lands projectile hits on u, its gonna hurt and she does a good job of rackin up dmg which is usually bad for link considering his easily gimpable up B......

closing remarks :: bombs, well timed DAC and a few arrows here and there set up for a safe approach... bombs being the best. DAC can reach her before she gets at the right height for zair... just for laughs u can tick off some samus players if u just use ur hylian shield on her big ball or nair her missles lol. Nair on a missle does no dmg to you , it stops the missles, and it looks straight up bad ***

 

[KRiMz0N]

her zair > bombs...but can link's clawshot blow her missiles up the same way?

 

[ShadowCosmos]

I'd have to say that it's probably 55:45 in Samus' favor.

She can spike if she gets you off stage and her Zair > Link's Zair, which normally means a better approach. However she is lighter than Link and Link hit's hard with his Smashes (and tilt's).

I suppose a Samus player would probably want to space more than a Link player in general so getting in close with a DAC would help greatly.

And of course Samus, like every other character, has a better recovery than Link -.-;

On the Plus side, almost all of the aerial moves that you will approach with as Link auto cancel, so that can lead to some nice set-ups.

I guess staying on the ground with link would seem to be one of the better strategies?

 

[chris the brawler]

i would say 50:50 or 55:45 samus' favour
thinking about killing moves Samus' best is probobly the dtilt(correct me if im wrong thats what i've heard) and because it sends you upwards it's not very effective against Link, also she doesn't really have any attacks that makes Link easy to gimp. With Links amazing DI and momentum cancel i usualy survive 'till 180 % if i don't its weird. and because samus is so light she's probobly KO'ed if hit by Links dair, a litle above 100 %

 

[Legan]

Samus can get link off the stage pretty easily, anytime you play a character with link that has alot of aerial mobility, it's makes it hard for him because he has alot of vulnerability in the air. A good samus will keep you spaced with projectiles and zair until you slip up and get knocked off the stage, links recovery being as predictable as it is means an easy dair gimp from samus. Thats my experience from playing really good samus's. So ill say 50:50 on the stage, 60:40 off the stage or in the air.

 

[chris the brawler]

Samus can get link off the stage pretty easily, anytime you play a character with link that has alot of aerial mobility, it's makes it hard for him because he has alot of vulnerability in the air. A good samus will keep you spaced with projectiles and zair until you slip up and get knocked off the stage, links recovery being as predictable as it is means an easy dair gimp from samus. Thats my experience from playing really good samus's. So ill say 50:50 on the stage, 60:40 off the stage or in the air.

yeah, i forgot about the the air-game again thats pretty much what i meant to say

 

[Ace17]

kirin ..explain how deva beats eggz then ..a guy known to be 1 of the best wut ?? mario!!

 

[Darxmarth23]

z-air vs z-air. They both have good spacing tools that are disjointed. The good thing is that we are much heavier, so we can z-air more frequently.

Samus will abuse her projectiles. She has three ranges of attack. The middle range overlaps with all of the others. I'll clarify on this later guys. Sorry if it doesn't make any sense.

 

[Eggz]

kirin ..explain how deva beats eggz then ..a guy known to be 1 of the best wut ?? mario!!

he doesn't. /explanation

 

[Incurable_Necrophile]

This thread makes me lose faith in the "new generation."

 

[Darxmarth23]

z-air vs z-air. They both have good spacing tools that are disjointed. The good thing is that we are much heavier, so we can z-air more frequently.

Samus will abuse her projectiles. She has three ranges of attack. The middle range overlaps with all of the others. I'll clarify on this later guys. Sorry if it doesn't make any sense.

Ahh, my chance to explain.

Samus has three "ranges" in her defensive game. She has her projectile spam range, which is her furthest range, then she has z-air which is in the middle, and then her close-combat attacks which is her closest.

Her z-air is long. When it is fully stretched out it takes up a lot of space for attacking horizontally. She will often use projectiles and z-air(2 ranges) when you are a certain distance away, and when you are close she will use her close combat attacks and z-air to push you back into her projectile range. Because z-air is so long, it is applicable in her projectile range, and her close combat range.

Even though link has a close combat sword, a z-air, and a bunch of projectiles, the same properties don't apply.

These three ranges that Samus has will constantly change in terms of use. When you have the upper hand, and she is at a high percent, expect her to use z-air and projectiles.
When you are at a high percent and she has the upper hand, she will use her close combat moves to kill you such as: D-tilt, F-smash, u-tilt(i think) and b-air. She will also keep z-air handy to push you out just in case.

She is a great defensive player that can really limit your options.

 

[Xyro77]

if anybody wants to do wifi with the best samus in the USA.......ill host

AIM me at xyro77

or msn me at was7x@hotmail.com


Btw! DEVA, im callin you out! MONEY MATCH at world hobo! 10$

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Being easily gimped is all you need to have a disadvantageous match-up ratio in this game. Recovery is the only reason Link is where he is on the tier list now. Yeah, he's got great range, KO potential, a very good projectile game but it's all overshadowed by the fact that if you're knocked too far off stage Link isn't going to make it back. So when you com across a character who is extremely good at gimping and is a very important part of their metagame then you're really not going to have such an easy time. Yes you have range and projectiles, but Mario has the means to get by them and get inside you and get you off stage, granted he won't be gimping you at horribly low %'s unless you slip up offstage when you reach those mid %'s and his attacks start throwing you around more, knocking you offstage, you can expect and should expect having a difficult time coming back with such bad recovery options.

Yet Marth is still high tier.

You can make up for bad or mediocre recoveries, Link can with his good projectile game, long range, and good KO potential. His recovery is a weakness for being bad, thats all.

I know your taking about Samus know, but this, this really stuck out to me.