Link Social Thread

[RomeDogg]

In 2.1 it was ridiculously easy to grab people with his grab so of course they needed to tweak it I mean come on this isn't brawl. Doing down smash with a bomb was cool but that isn't the way it should be. Also I think the new boomerang knockback matches his Melee boomerang knockback and if it does that's even better imo since the more melee like the better. So does it match his Melee rang now?

He did get positive changes he can now have 3 bombs in play and can bomb tech. Now the only thing he really needs is his Melee grab range and tether mechanics then he will be perfect and complete. To me he has definitely improved since 2.1.

 

[GHNeko]

I won't give up on link. It's just disheartening to start losing to people I beat or go even with consistently just because of the rang change :/. It really is a pretty big nerf I think.

I like the grab changes to link. Only thing I dislike is rang and I think it's a lot more important than people realized >_>.

As one of the other members put it, "Dat Falco Shine projectile"

 

[Revven]

The previous boomerang was way, way off from what the stats of it are in 64 and Melee (both 64 and Melee, as funny as this sounds, share about the same knockback and angle values). The stats of it were purely estimated.

The previous boomerang shared about the same angle as Falco's shine, which is exactly why it was so good. It was a bit odd for the projectile to have that angle when it was trying to match the stats of 64 boomerang. So... because we can match the proper data of projectiles, matching it was the only right thing to do.

If it's seen as a nerf, that wasn't the intention. The intention was to make it work the way it was intended, which was to match 64's boomerang... and it does now. Is it bad that it matches the boomerang stats we were trying to match it to originally?

(It's kind of why we say everything is subject to change though and this is an example of that).

 

[RomeDogg]

Well Revven if that is the case then I agree with the change 110%. I don't consider it a nerf since it is making Link more accurate to his Melee/N64 self. I also think since this is the case the change should definitely stay.

 

[BRLNK88]

Not everything needs to match Melee/64 Link, there's reasons why he was a low tier.
Since most people seem to like it the way it was, I say keep it.
That angle and knockback is even better than it was in 64. There's nothing wrong with a change as long as it doesn't break the character.

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

It is a nerf if it makes Link's boomerang less effective. Period. Stop being so touchy about the word.

I'm kind of glad they changed it back though, but I'm biased for hard characters.

Dsmash bomb though... i can never forgive.

 

[Problem2]

Why not just tweak it a little for the point blank or sweetspot of the boomerang? As is, every character can DI away from the boomerang and Link has no follow ups at higher percent, when he's trying to kill. In melee, Link even had follow ups after point blank boomerang.

 

[BRLNK88]

To be frank, I quit Melee competitively because its so damn hard to win at a high level with Link, and I got sick of trying to do it with Marth.
One of the main reasons I got into PM was the buffed up low tiers, I want every low tier to have a legitimate chance to compete with a space animal.
I do like the buffs Link has received so far, but it would be nice for the rang to return 2.1 style in 3.0, unless yall plan on releasing a 2.6 patch.

 

[J.Shadows]

I got the best project m Link in the world :D

 

[RomeDogg]

Link has gotten enough buffs that the angle the rang sends his opponents does not even matter. He is balanced.

 

[Dng3]

I think the issue most people have is that the original intention of Project M Links boomerang was that it could useful for COMBO-ing. Now that it doesn't do that effectively anymore, even if it was brought back to N64 stats, it took away what most players became accustomed to since it was one of link's best tools. Now it's just an average projectile with poor combo ability, and the intention of it's design was loss.

Even if we look it as a nerf, it was unneeded as Link was already balanced in 2.1 and didn't need this change. Plenty of melee top tiers are more deserving of nerfs (fox, falco) so it's almost sad link's potential was brought down when he was becoming something of his own.

 

[Hylian]

In 2.1 it was ridiculously easy to grab people with his grab so of course they needed to tweak it I mean come on this isn't brawl. Doing down smash with a bomb was cool but that isn't the way it should be. Also I think the new boomerang knockback matches his Melee boomerang knockback and if it does that's even better imo since the more melee like the better. So does it match his Melee rang now?

He did get positive changes he can now have 3 bombs in play and can bomb tech. Now the only thing he really needs is his Melee grab range and tether mechanics then he will be perfect and complete. To me he has definitely improved since 2.1.

If you think Link has improved from 2.1 then I question anything you say lol. How is something better just because it's more like melee/64? You realize link was one of the worst characters in 64/brawl and low tier in melee right?

The previous boomerang was way, way off from what the stats of it are in 64 and Melee (both 64 and Melee, as funny as this sounds, share about the same knockback and angle values). The stats of it were purely estimated.

The previous boomerang shared about the same angle as Falco's shine, which is exactly why it was so good. It was a bit odd for the projectile to have that angle when it was trying to match the stats of 64 boomerang. So... because we can match the proper data of projectiles, matching it was the only right thing to do.

If it's seen as a nerf, that wasn't the intention. The intention was to make it work the way it was intended, which was to match 64's boomerang... and it does now. Is it bad that it matches the boomerang stats we were trying to match it to originally?

(It's kind of why we say everything is subject to change though and this is an example of that).

If you are going to nerf one of his biggest tools(and yes, even if you didn't intend it to be a nerf, it's pretty significant) then why not buff other aspects to keep the character balanced? I heard nothing but praise for how balanced 2.1 Link was. In fact the only complaints I really saw was that 2.1 Link was bad at dealing with spacies/shiek and pressure in general which would lead people to think he would get very small buffs if anything.

Link has always been bad in smash games. I am a HUGE zelda fan, and still don't play Link in 64/melee/brawl. PM was the first game I enjoyed playing him in because I was able to play aggressive and he actually fit my playstyle. Now I feel like the only way to be successful at all is to play campy and Link feels like he plays very differently and just feels less fun to play. I don't understand the mindset of making everything like melee/64 when link was bad in melee/64.

Really though it's whatever. I just don't enjoy playing the character as much so I'm probably going to end up switching.

Link has gotten enough buffs that the angle the rang sends his opponents does not even matter. He is balanced.

Disagree completely.

I think the issue most people have is that the original intention of Project M Links boomerang was that it could useful for COMBO-ing. Now that it doesn't do that effectively anymore, even if it was brought back to N64 stats, it took away what most players became accustomed to since it was one of link's best tools. Now it's just an average projectile with poor combo ability, and the intention of it's design was loss.

Even if we look it as a nerf, it was unneeded as Link was already balanced in 2.1 and didn't need this change. Plenty of melee top tiers are more deserving of nerfs (fox, falco) so it's almost sad link's potential was brought down when he was becoming something of his own.

Exactly this.

 

[Beorn4200]

This news is incredibly depressing. I do not care how much like melee or 64 link is. He was bad. All I want is melee physics from PM link. That is how you make him feel like melee... He has that.

Saying his rang or any hit bubble needs to match any of his previous incarnations is a poor augment if the main point is to balance him.

While I won't drop link for this as Hylian might. It is very discouraging.

No Bomb dsmash

Worse rang angle

Melee dthrow

No aerial grab on the actual claw shot parts.

These are big nerfs. The only one of these I could see as warranted is the last one, but it is still a big nerf with no compensation for a character that wasn't top tier material.

3 Bombs does not make up for this. Having three bombs was a given when it was possible not a deserved buff. Just like melee tether will be.

I think you have done a beautiful job on link Shadic, he is infinitely fun to play, but these nerfs need a better explanation than "more like his crappy old incarnations"

 

[GMaster171]

You do realize bomb-dsmash was a bug right? Link wasn't the only one effected by this, Peach got hit harder by the removal of this, her d-smash is much better than Link's.

Haven't played Link too much, hes my secondary and have been perfecting my main again, but I honestly didn't notice too much different about him. all the BnB combos I did before still work, and pretty much every kill I went for, I got. I'll hold my judgement until I actually get more playtime in with him.

 

[GHNeko]

I can kinda sympathize with the rang change, but not at all about being even slightly upset at Dsmash Bomb and Aerial Grab with Claw shot being fixed. <_<

Come on now. >_>

 

[B.W.]

I don't play Link anymore because of Ivysaur, but I don't think the rang needed to be changed in any which way.

I totally agree with the changes to the hookshot not grabbing people in the air with the hook part as well as making d-throw Melee's d-throw. Both these changes take away his chaingrabs where were absolutely stupid with the 2.1 grabbox and d-throw combined.

 

[Dan Salvato]

I don't have much experience with 2.1 Link (maybe because I played primarily PM Alpha for a while), so my best comparison to 2.5 Link is Melee Link, haha. That said, I have no complaints about the boomerang and I still feel Link is a very scary character to play against.

 

[Dng3]

We should nerf Fox's up-smash and Falco's Dair while we're at it then, because they'd still be scary as well

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Overall Link just feels a lot worse to me :/. He's not as fun to play anymore, probably going to end up switching mains.

Same here, pointless nerfs are stupid, the only thing Links chaingrabs did was give him a slim shot at beating spacies, now he has none

Not everything needs to match Melee/64 Link, there's reasons why he was a low tier.

This, we want to stay away from melee/64 Link's properties, wasn't the goal to improve him? Since when did it change to replicating his old low-tier self?


Seriously I feel the same as Hylian, I'm just forcing myself to keep playing Link at this point just because I like Link as a character, but over time I'll probably just stop playing him, Toon Link got a ridiculous amount of buffs for someone who didn't need many, and Link gets the big nerf stick, WTF? Whatever, Falco's my new main, Link's not winning any tournaments

 

[monkeyx4]

Really though it's whatever. I just don't enjoy playing the character as much so I'm probably going to end up switching.

Same here, pointless nerfs are stupid, the only thing Links chaingrabs did was give him a slim shot at beating spacies, now he has none



This, we want to stay away from melee/64 Link's properties, wasn't the goal to improve him? Since when did it change to replicating his old low-tier self?


Seriously I feel the same as Hylian, I'm just forcing myself to keep playing Link at this point just because I like Link as a character, but over time I'll probably just stop playing him, Toon Link got a ridiculous amount of buffs for someone who didn't need many, and Link gets the big nerf stick, WTF? Whatever, Falco's my new main, Link's not winning any tournaments

Even though i agree 100% with ya i aint going to leave link. He's still good not all bad but , i think he can win some tourneys

 

[SpiderMad]

I sympathize with you guys, except not that much since I think ya'll will get your reverts on the boomerang and stuff with the sheer amount of complaints and Hylian in the PMBR himself now.

Who you going to switch to Hylian? How about Ike? Do you think Ike mains should switch from the Ike's changes?

Demo v1 Marth had a faster ending on his side-b (a single swipe of it), I kind of miss that too.

 

[B.W.]

Same here, pointless nerfs are stupid, the only thing Links chaingrabs did was give him a slim shot at beating spacies, now he has none.

His chaingrab did much more than give him a slim shot at beating spacies. Once practiced he could chaingrab pretty much the entire cast for free.

Link can still get a lot out of an up-throw against the spacies using dash attack, up-tilts and you can still catch them with a point blank grab if they screw up DIing a throw. It's just not as easy to rack up damage as it used to be. It's still possible though.

EDIT: Also the "nerfs" happened more because things weren't "working as intended." This being a demo, they want to see how everything works out when they're working the way they're supposed to. If they're not good working the way they're supposed to then they'll get buffs so that they'll be better versions of the way they're supposed to work.

 

[GHNeko]

2.1 Link Dthrow had like a CG to like 200% on DK lol.

That **** was bananas.

 

[BRLNK88]

Considering how hard DK f***s up Link, I think that's fair.


Glad to hear there's a good chance it'll be reverted in the next demo.

 

[GHNeko]

No way DK ****s up Link. DK is lucky to get inside Link's zone imo.

 

[Hylian]

I sympathize with you guys, except not that much since I think ya'll will get your reverts on the boomerang and stuff with the sheer amount of complaints and Hylian in the PMBR himself now.

Who you going to switch to Hylian? How about Ike? Do you think Ike mains should switch from the Ike's changes?

Demo v1 Marth had a faster ending on his side-b (a single swipe of it), I kind of miss that too.

I actually find Ike more fun to play now than I did in 2.1. I will probably play Lucas though, I just find him really fun. I always just play who I'm having the most fun with.

2.1 Link Dthrow had like a CG to like 200% on DK lol.

That **** was bananas.

It was unreliable and you had to be frame perfect pretty much. It also stopped at 140%.

No way DK ****s up Link. DK is lucky to get inside Link's zone imo.

Dk beats Link imo. Maybe you could have argued for even before but definitely not now.

 

[GHNeko]

The Hylian has spoken. I concede.

 

[BRLNK88]

I was convinced after watching Strong Bad vs Hylian.
DK is FAST.

Makes sense considering he's big and has no projectile, but his combo game is broken against Link.

 

[Soldner Kei]

This hurts every inch of my being too.

Also, I noticed that you're in Sonora. Where in Sonora are you?

I am in Hermosillo

Having a lot of fun with P:M, and well, regarding the little "nerfs" that Link got... well, he is not brawl's Link at least :V

 

[iLink]

I think I'm more upset about the hook not actually being able to grab people out of the air more then anything else. Forget the fact that I can't CG with it, just being able to grab people in the air was something he needed.

I can kinda deal with the boomerang change since you can still kind of follow up on it in most cases. The dthrow isn't such a huge loss to me either.

 

[Strong Badam]

I was convinced after watching Strong Bad vs Hylian.
DK is FAST.

Makes sense considering he's big and has no projectile, but his combo game is broken against Link.

no offense to hylian but i could prolly beat his link w/ like 5 characters. down to mm if it's recorded.

the mu is even in 2.5 IMO. eli and i were going even (slight adv to him) with 2.5 link (aka no bull**** easy no interaction falco shine as a projectile). they were friendlies tho i have no idea what would happen in tourney w/ stage cping.

 

[ELI-mination]

I used to believe the matchup was highly in Link's favor but I've since been inclined to believe it's closer to even. Most matchups in this game are pretty close to even imo.

lol @ falco shine

I liked his old boomerang because it totally set him up for like, everything.
Dairs, Fairs, Nairs, Bairs, Grabs, *****, etc.

Link is still quite threatening as a character, but if he had 2.1 boomerang, I'd keep him placed pretty firmly in top tier like I always have. But design > balance, so that's not really relevant, but worth mentioning nonetheless. And I do think that both boomerangs are indicative of good design, but 2.1 boomerang would be the better choice. I wouldn't throw a fit over it though.

 

[Beorn4200]

Was this air grab change made to all tether characters because Zamus can still grab out of the air. Either that or she just has a MUCH better grab than link in how long the hit bubble stays out... It's almost like it doesn't affect her.

Do Ivy, lucas, Zamus and Yoshi not have broken grabs aswell? Link and toon link seem to be the only ones ****ed by this.(Well toon link has the run speed to use the close grab box, link does not. So link gets the most ****ed) It's not a matter of I can't chain grab people to death ... It's a matter of I can't grab people because most characters spend there time in the air. It's like melee all over again.

Edit: There is no mistake... Zamus can grab out of the air with her tether. Just tested in 1/4th speed. What? If he's going to be tweaked like this at least compensate him like shiek. She got her grab nerfed so it wasn't broken against half the cast then got compensation. She was and still is a better character.

 

[J.Shadows]

I have the best pm Link in the world!

 

[monkeyx4]

^Lol

 

[standardtoaster]

zss' grab is also much slower

 

[Juushichi]

I thought 2.1 Rang was kinda braindead. But like... if you're comparing him to spacies, falcon autocombos, sheik and etc... I guess sure. He seemed okay vs everyone else and a close to high tier character in 2.1. He still seems strong in 2.5, but probably requires the use of a lot of the tools that he has (both figuratively and literally) and takes a lot of creative dedication, which seems to be exactly what Link is as a character theme, lol.

I like it as a design choice and like it as a development choice. Just like I like the change from 2.1 Sonic, even though it does legitimately make him worse. Same with 2.1 Ike, but to a lesser extent. Also, ZSS's grab sucks. Her throws are what's great. I would take Link's grab to just about every tether character short of Lucas', to be honest.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

2.1 Link Dthrow had like a CG to like 200% on DK lol.

That **** was bananas.

Unreliable and hard to do and definitely not 200%, I don't get why the air grab had to go when there's Marth who has stupid range on his grab and it's faster and he chaingrabs spacies

But it's not the big problem here anyways, his boomerang is just stupid now, well good news since I've left playing Link, picked up Ike and I like him a lot, and I've gotten a lot better with Falco now, both these guys are tournament material fo sho

I think I'm more upset about the hook not actually being able to grab people out of the air more then anything else. Forget the fact that I can't CG with it, just being able to grab people in the air was something he needed.

I can kinda deal with the boomerang change since you can still kind of follow up on it in most cases. The dthrow isn't such a huge loss to me either.

I'm upset about the air grab too

And you really can't do anything after a boomerang hit once your opponent finds out they can just DI away after being hit, I told my friend that, now playing Link is just extremely frustrating, no thanks I'm done

 

[Hylian]

no offense to hylian but i could prolly beat his link w/ like 5 characters. down to mm if it's recorded.

the mu is even in 2.5 IMO. eli and i were going even (slight adv to him) with 2.5 link (aka no bull**** easy no interaction falco shine as a projectile). they were friendlies tho i have no idea what would happen in tourney w/ stage cping.

What lol. I will glady MM your 5 non-dk characters for $20 each. In 2.1 at least.

 

[Dng3]

I thought 2.1 Rang was kinda braindead. But like... if you're comparing him to spacies, falcon autocombos, sheik and etc... I guess sure. He seemed okay vs everyone else and a close to high tier character in 2.1. He still seems strong in 2.5, but probably requires the use of a lot of the tools that he has (both figuratively and literally) and takes a lot of creative dedication, which seems to be exactly what Link is as a character theme, lol.

I like it as a design choice and like it as a development choice. Just like I like the change from 2.1 Sonic, even though it does legitimately make him worse. Same with 2.1 Ike, but to a lesser extent. Also, ZSS's grab sucks. Her throws are what's great. I would take Link's grab to just about every tether character short of Lucas', to be honest.

Orginial design of Project M link's boomerang was to be a effective combo tool. Link's boomerang wasn't broken in design nor Link's gameplay centered around his boomerang like Sonic and his spin attacks in 2.1. They had it right prior to 2.5. And of course, every balance made is going to be in relation to melee top tiers such as the ones you mentioned. It's only fair and permitting that Link has his tools for "braindead" combos, otherwise every other character with these tools should be nerfed as well.