Link 3.6 Changes

[Magus420]

D-throw up-b works perfectly fine on behind DI in 3.6. Sounds like maybe you're up-bing without turning around or b-reversing it? The attack hits in front of him first, so you want to face behind if they DI behind. Also, when FFers get near 160-200 and actually start to go too far for a standing up-b you have plenty of time to dash into the up-b to reach them.

Spoiler

The d-throw release point is exactly the same in 3.6 as it was in 3.5, believe it or not. I double checked to make sure. It is -4.8213|3.04696 (X|Y) in both. Character specific offsets are then added onto that base offset in the animation for the actual release point vs the character being thrown (which on average now has a lower Y than 3.5), but that base Y offset of 3.047 on the throw animation itself is low enough to the ground that characters would be releasing at 0 (floor height) in both 3.5 and 3.6, so it works the same.

U-throws, which more often have base release points on the animation well above the floor and greater than the amount character offsets shift them down, are where most throw release differences in 3.6 would be seen because the adjusted character offsets matter instead of planting all characters along the floor on release like d-throws. The end result vs a character would be higher or lower depending on whether their offset previously placed the center of the character above or below the base release point before.

 

[EmptySky00]

I figured that out minus the depth that only you can provide. At 150+ Captain Falcon does move too far back for spin to hit and I've never had that happen at any point in the previous version which is why I got so mad about it because I thought it was an arbitrary intentional change that took away kill options, but I figured out at that percent the stun has increased to a point where you can do a brief dash back into JC spin to hit him anyway. So forget I said anything on that I guess. It still feels like the release point was moved more towards his back than before. I noticed it when testing the platform thresholds for each character. It might be something that was there before but I never noticed it I guess. It still feels like DI back has SIGNIFICANTLY more impact than it did before. But whatever that crisis was solved.

Still kind of pissed about Usmash. That move objectively feels worse. Uthrow feels worse but not in any super meaningful way.

 

[Thor]

I figured that out minus the depth that only you can provide. At 150+ Captain Falcon does move too far back for spin to hit and I've never had that happen at any point in the previous version which is why I got so mad about it because I thought it was an arbitrary intentional change that took away kill options, but I figured out at that percent the stun has increased to a point where you can do a brief dash back into JC spin to hit him anyway. So forget I said anything on that I guess. It still feels like the release point was moved more towards his back than before. I noticed it when testing the platform thresholds for each character. It might be something that was there before but I never noticed it I guess. It still feels like DI back has SIGNIFICANTLY more impact than it did before. But whatever that crisis was solved.

Still kind of pissed about Usmash. That move objectively feels worse. Uthrow feels worse but not in any super meaningful way.

I will state that I never had this issue in Melee with spin attacking Falcon or Fox or Falco off dthrow, but I also don't know how many of them just DI badly.

I also should've mentioned that I didn't run into issues because I did the dash - I assumed you did, but I dash back almost every time now when they're above 100% [Roy, Wolf, MK, etc.] to maximize the range. It's an adjustment, but if it's still a true combo, it's ultimately something to be glad that we still have, even if it's a bit trickier than before.

My point with the tech chase is that they seemed [for me] to be forced to tech close enough to me that I could cover every option with dash back spin attack except tech away, which is covered with keep going boomerang or zair. Most characters don't have an option that instantly covers 3/4s of tech options [Wario is laughing at me, I know...].

I'm not saying I'm happy with the dthrow tweaks, but it could be MUCH worse [lol Sheik bthrow... which I think was a good thing, but not for Sheik mains]. I'm a silver lining kinda guy about these things though.

 

[EmptySky00]

I'm not mad about it anymore now that I know the reason why it feels different. And I should have figured out that I could just dash JC spin to hit anyway. Again, just the thought of them intentionally altering my throws so I couldn't spin anymore pissed me off. I'm more or less calm now though. At least I didn't blow up about it. I just ******* a lot but I tried to remain moderately civil. Maybe I didn't succeed. Oh well.

Usmash tho.


Anyway, I'm doing preparations for my tech guide video. My friend just needs to upload some **** for me that he was supposed to upload months ago, and I need my brother to come over for some assistance in recording.

 

[Thor]

I'm not mad about it anymore now that I know the reason why it feels different. And I should have figured out that I could just dash JC spin to hit anyway. Again, just the thought of them intentionally altering my throws so I couldn't spin anymore pissed me off. I'm more or less calm now though. At least I didn't blow up about it. I just ******* a lot but I tried to remain moderately civil. Maybe I didn't succeed. Oh well.

Usmash tho.


Anyway, I'm doing preparations for my tech guide video. My friend just needs to upload some **** for me that he was supposed to upload months ago, and I need my brother to come over for some assistance in recording.

I don't really usmash as much either due to the changes... DACUS still can work once in a while, but if they react quickly, it seems that getting punished is likely...

It's still fortunately good for shield pressure on people on platforms with partially worn down shields, but that's not saying much.

Incidentally, was the SDI on all the hits tweaked, or just the first hit? I'd read the changelog and thought that it was just the first hit, but I don't know if the whole move was nerfed or just the first hit, and so I'll ask here.

 

[EmptySky00]

I think it said that the first hits were tweaked so I'm assuming the first 2 but not the last one. Idk, with the new realization about Dthrow, this version of Link seems fine to me. His janky hitboxes were fixed and he has better attributes. Fantastic. I'm not approving of Usmash still, but I like this Link for the most part. My bad for rushing to conclusions I guess. Thanks Magus for explaining to me.

 

[G13_Flux]

Actually most nairs similar to link do 13,14, or 15% and don't have to hit with the foot. Yoshi, Samus, Shiek,Luigi, rob, peach, ect. Mario, Link, Ness,fox, falco ect are in the minority, and Links nair is even further in the minority in that it requires you to hit with only the foot to get the 12% hitbubble.

:Edit, Why can't pm Link do a lot of the stuff in that video? If we could weak hit nair into dair at kill percents it would solve a lot of Links problems with converting to kill moves at high percents. Also is PM Links landing detection on nair different than melee? I went into frame advance and tried to do that Nair spam on a battlefield plat. It didn't work.

Links hitbubble on the first hit of bair is kinda garbage. There is like never a reason to use the first hit anymore. I would much rather it keep the speed up and still have melee knock back.

I still haven't had a chance to play this Link extensively post 3.6b, but I will be playing tomorrow with @ Mr.Pickle and Probably @Leafeon. Will post thought's afterwards. Though I have played quite a bit of the unfinished version of this Link pre 3.6, so these won't exactly be initial thoughts.

in order to do the nair spam on a plat you have to actually hit an opponent. I have absolutely no idea why this is, but it is. others like ZSS and luigi can do it to. I know theres others but thats just off the top of my head.

also on nair, while the damage concern is one thing, it may be worth noting that the butt hitbox he has is pretty unique. im pretty sure shiek is the only one who shares a similar configuration. where this falls within his toolkit is much more significant though, because link has a pretty decent FF speed, so this covers a lot of space and protects him very well.

unrelated, ftilt is probably the most significant buff, along with the mobility. it was useless in 3.5. like really useless. now it has some good finishing potential at the ledge, and since it covers the ledge well, i think thats going to be important.

 

[EmptySky00]

I don't think the Ftilt buff was significant at all. Sure, they undid the stupidity of nerfing it in the first place when it wasn't even that spectacular to begin with, but he has other tools for similar things. It's not that the ftilt change isn't welcome, it's just that it isn't the type of buff that will make the character better as a whole. It just gives him a decent option in certain situations that he didn't have before.

Alternatively, mobility was one of Link's weaknesses. Once he was cornered he had no good way of escaping because of how slow he was and he couldn't compete with faster characters in that respect. So even though the numbers didn't increase exponentially, that's a very useful buff. We are no longer slow as ****. Rejoice.

I recorded the clips for my tech video btw. That'll be up soon if all goes well.

 

[Frost_Aer0]

I think that So Appalled by Kayne West is an appropriate song.

 

[G13_Flux]

I don't think the Ftilt buff was significant at all. Sure, they undid the stupidity of nerfing it in the first place when it wasn't even that spectacular to begin with, but he has other tools for similar things. It's not that the ftilt change isn't welcome, it's just that it isn't the type of buff that will make the character better as a whole. It just gives him a decent option in certain situations that he didn't have before.

Alternatively, mobility was one of Link's weaknesses. Once he was cornered he had no good way of escaping because of how slow he was and he couldn't compete with faster characters in that respect. So even though the numbers didn't increase exponentially, that's a very useful buff. We are no longer slow as ****. Rejoice.

I recorded the clips for my tech video btw. That'll be up soon if all goes well.

so having a stronger, low angled, killing move as opposed to higher angle, weaker move isnt significant? between getting a KB and angle buff, its killing power is increased a lot. based on where this falls within his tool kit, he now actually has a reliable onstage gimping tool. he doesnt have anything else that sends opponents out that far unless he can commit to an offstage nair, and properly position it to hit the sweetspot. everything else can be DId up and in so the opponent can take a high recovery road whenever they want. ftilt now helps mitigate that a good amount. also, it kind of was spectacular before they nerfed it. for its range, coverage, decent speed, and killing potential in 3.02, it was pretty damn good.

dont get me wrong, its not game breaking. but of the buffs that he got, i think the ftilt buff and the mobility buff are the most important. more reliable killing. more reliable neutral.

 

[EmptySky00]

so having a stronger, low angled, killing move as opposed to higher angle, weaker move isnt significant? between getting a KB and angle buff, its killing power is increased a lot. based on where this falls within his tool kit, he now actually has a reliable onstage gimping tool. he doesnt have anything else that sends opponents out that far unless he can commit to an offstage nair, and properly position it to hit the sweetspot. everything else can be DId up and in so the opponent can take a high recovery road whenever they want. ftilt now helps mitigate that a good amount. also, it kind of was spectacular before they nerfed it. for its range, coverage, decent speed, and killing potential in 3.02, it was pretty damn good.

dont get me wrong, its not game breaking. but of the buffs that he got, i think the ftilt buff and the mobility buff are the most important. more reliable killing. more reliable neutral.

No, because Ftilt isn't a central part of Link's toolkit and the character couldn't care less if he had it or not. It's nice that it's good, but if it isn't it really doesn't matter because it's a situational tool. It's not that important because Link already has ways to kill. I'm not saying the move isn't significantly better, but that the move itself being good isn't going to make the character as a whole better in a significant way. Movement on the other hand is something you use all the time and is the most significant buff.

I think spectacular is a little bit far but whatever. There's actually no point in debating over which buff is the most significant as well because it's an arbitrary metric.

Edit: I just witnessed it hit Lucario offstage at 90 and Lucario went nowhere lol. It obliterated him at 130 though. Which is obviously good, but it doesn't add any revolutionary kill power or gimp power like you're suggesting it just gives him an option that's good in some scenarios. The move does what it was supposed to do now instead of being useless always and that's all it needed. I think it was a good change overall.

 

[Beorn]

My thoughts on 3.6 are that he is now a good character. Not great, but good. Still on the lower end of the cast. Like Pit went from good in 3.5 to legitimate threat in 3.6. Link went from not good to good in 3.6.

Great changes all round. I include the usmash when I say this. I still don't understand why his uair can't match the animation like the other swordies but this is an improvement. The mobility is the biggest buff by far. Ftilt only really helps in a couple of match ups. It's still not in front of link until frame 17, which still makes it the slowest ftilt in the entire game, but it's situational and not complete garbage like 3.5.

If his up-b had a couple extra percent for bomb jumps, and his jab was 1 frame faster, he would be a solid character like Pit has become and most every character currently is.

As it stands I can still just pick up my character pog move it slightly to the right and pick a character with a better version of nearly every one of Links moves. (toonlink)

Hats off to Shadic for all the work he put in to make Link not bad. Thanks breh ^_^

 

[TheBigChew]

I wonder if we will see the day where link is better than Toon link or equal, doubt it.

 

[666blaziken]

I wonder if we will see the day where link is better than Toon link or equal, doubt it.

Well, there was 3.02 link being godly... But we don't talk about 3.02.

 

[666blaziken]

I really like a lot of his changes. He is a faster stronger character, but I like how playing against him isn't as annoying anymore. SDI'ing his up smash while possible, was really annoying, and I had to respect the move a lot, and I also heard that boomerang has more startup, so it's easier to punish.

 

[EmptySky00]

You just shouldn't get hit by Usmash in the first place. SDI'ing out of multi hit moves is an idiotic mechanic. You shouldn't be able to just fall out of a move once you got hit lol. Again, the counterplay from getting hit should be DI'ing so you don't die or you avoid further follow-ups, not nullifying its use altogether because you slammed your face on the joystick.

Uair now matches the animation enough for me to be satisfied with it. It's not perfect by a few milimeters, but who actually cares? Much better than before. Utilt is amazing. It's like when your toaster hits everywhere. Bair is an actual move now. Thank God.


How was Pit buffed? I'm unaware.

 

[Beorn]

You just shouldn't get hit by Usmash in the first place. SDI'ing out of multi hit moves is an idiotic mechanic. You shouldn't be able to just fall out of a move once you got hit lol. Again, the counterplay from getting hit should be DI'ing so you don't die or you avoid further follow-ups, not nullifying its use altogether because you slammed your face on the joystick.

Uair now matches the animation enough for me to be satisfied with it. It's not perfect by a few milimeters, but who actually cares? Much better than before. Utilt is amazing. It's like when your toaster hits everywhere. Bair is an actual move now. Thank God.


How was Pit buffed? I'm unaware.

Basically he's really good now. Arrow is it's own character. Yes, they actually buffed Pits arrows.

Tilts
-Forward Tilt
--Changed Forward Tilt's animation to have a larger vertical sweep. Middle-most hitbox is larger than normal on the first hit frame. Horizontal reach is unchanged.
--IASA 28 -> 31
--Sweetspot BKB 50 -> 45
--Sourspot BKB 50 -> 40

-Up Tilt
--Launching hitbox on the first hit has priority over the juggling hitboxes (properly launches from the ground at 0)
-1st hit:
--Launching hit angle: 95 -> 100
--leg hit: BKB 0 -> 5
-2nd hit:
--KBG 80 -> 100
--IASA increased to 28 from 26.

-Down Tilt
--Sped up by 2 frames. Now hits on frames 9-11, IASA on 30.

Smashes
-Forward Smash (Swing 1)
--Animation, hitboxes, and timings adjusted to better link into Swing 2's strong hitboxes.
--IASA 26 -> 30; Fsmash2 input window unchanged, this increases fsmash cancel by six frames.
--Inner hitboxes 6 dmg -> 9 dmg
--Outer hitboxes 4 dmg -> 7 dmg
-Foward Smash (Swing 2)
--Hitboxes start and end 1 frame later.
--Inner hitboxes 15 dmg -> 12 dmg
--Outer hitboxes 12 dmg -> 10 dmg

-Up Smash
--Linking hit angles: upward: 110 -> 100; downward: 230 -> 260
--SDI 0.4x -> 1x (this was actually in the 3.5 changelog but never implemented for some reason)
--Middle hit now hits downward on both hitboxes instead of just 1
--Final hit body hitbox: size: 3.5 -> 5

-Down Smash
-1st hit:
--Angle 361 -> 75 (matches back hit)
--All hitboxes +10 BKB. Sword (30 -> 40), Shoulder (25 -> 35), Body (18 -> 28).

Aerials
-Neutral Aerial
--Linking hits each last 5 frames instead of 3 to reduce gaps between hits and improve linkage. Hits on frames 4-8, 9-13, 14-18, and 19-21.
--Increased size of linking hits' center hitbox for more consistent hitbox coverage.
--Attached final hitbox to the center of Pit's bow and increased its size a bit to cover most of the graphic effect.

-Back Aerial:
--Redone animation.
--Active 9-25 -> 9-22 (hitbox terminates at the same time as the glowing sword GFX)

-Up Aerial:
--Landlag: 22 -> 20
-Sweetspot
--Angle 70 -> 75
--Center hitbox: BKB (5 -> 15), KBG (110 -> 100).
--Outer hitboxes: DMG (10 -> 11), BKB (5 -> 15), KBG (110 -> 100).
-Sourspot
--Angle 80 -> 75
--All hitboxes homogenized to 8 dmg. Outer (7 -> 8), Inner (9 -> 8).

-Down Aerial:
--Hits are now strongest on the blade for the entire duration, instead of starting off strong at Pit's arm and then switching to the blade halfway through. Arm hitbox takes priorty.
--Sourspot deals 10% damage instead of 8%. KB Compensated.

Throws
-Down Throw:
--Changed so Pit has less opportunities for follow up and higher pecent. bkb (75 -> 65), kbg (45 -> 70)

Grabs
-Standing grab
--Added a small inner grab-box in order to help keep it from missing at point blank.

Specials
-Neutral Special
--Arrow release frame moved up from 19 to 15, the notched arrow hitbox is out a frame earlier.
--Cleaned up the animation and coding such that shooting an arrow straight and shooting an arrow up have similar timings.

-Side Special (Glide)
--Now has a 'glide timer' of 75 frames, has graphics that indicate the time progression, after which he goes into his glide end.

-Up Special
--Fixed up-b's momentum not gaining momentum properly when used out of hitstun.
--Also gave it slightly prettier visuals.
--Now reflects projectiles

-Down Special (Mirror Shield)
--Ending's IASA changed from frame 15 to 5.

 

[EmptySky00]

Ya I could have went and found the change list. I was just inquiring as to which ones make him good lol. Tbh all I'm seeing is some positive tweaks, nothing substantial aside from arrows, then a bunch of nerfs sprinkled in. I was under the impression that Pit wasn't very good in the previous version. But this is Project M. You can find people that place any given character in top 5. Then you can find someone else who puts them in bottom 5 <_> Maybe it's because I don't understand Pit. But I've done the derailing thing enough so I'll just wait to see how it plays out.

 

[Beorn]

Ya I could have went and found the change list. I was just inquiring as to which ones make him good lol. Tbh all I'm seeing is some positive tweaks, nothing substantial aside from arrows, then a bunch of nerfs sprinkled in. I was under the impression that Pit wasn't very good in the previous version. But this is Project M. You can find people that place any given character in top 5. Then you can find someone else who puts them in bottom 5 <_> Maybe it's because I don't understand Pit. But I've done the derailing thing enough so I'll just wait to see how it plays out.

Hmmm.... Pit was never a bad character. He's always had great damage output, good killpower, amazing gimp ability, a great projectile that invalidates a good few recoverys with one shot, a good recovery, a 7 frame grab with alright throws, and an amazing 8 frame usmash.

Now he has even better arrows, a better up-b hit, more reliable kill moves, better setups that are faster (dtilt) and a better combo game. Oh did I mention his new dthow? He's quite clearly very good. His movement and recovery alone means he could never have been that bad.

 

[EmptySky00]

Most grabs are 7 frames outside of like.. Bowser, Zelda, tethers, etc.

You can stick good movement and a good recovery on a bad moveset and still end up with a bad character.

 

[Beorn]

Most grabs are 7 frames outside of like.. Bowser, Zelda, tethers, etc.

You can stick good movement and a good recovery on a bad moveset and still end up with a bad character.

Yes most grabs are 7 frames, but when you are a Link main you know what a big deal it is to have a normal grab.

Pit's moveset is not bad, and never has been. The movement and recovery are icing on the cake. His moves are very similar to Links, but generally faster, less range, and less endlag.

 

[EmptySky00]

I understand that normal grabs are good, but I don't think you can list that as one of his perks lol. I also wasn't saying his moveset is bad, I was merely saying that just having recovery and movement isn't enough to actually be good because you need good moves backing it.

 

[AnooseLOL]

The most meaningful buff to 3.6 link that has really uped my game is that invincible ledge dash. Ive always taken a more tanky approach to link (wall out and CC stray hits) so living at high percents was very advantageous for me. Now that Links ledge dash is really reliable, getting back on stage at higher percent is so much more comfortable and I feel like I can really compete against so those hard stage control characters (ie bowser, swordsman). I mean for real link has a pretty good tool kit on the ledge now. I would like to ask, however, is how do you guys like to deal with characters that can recover high relatively well?

 

[Beorn]

I understand that normal grabs are good, but I don't think you can list that as one of his perks lol. I also wasn't saying his moveset is bad, I was merely saying that just having recovery and movement isn't enough to actually be good because you need good moves backing it.

This is true, and I believe pit has never had bad moves. Just a few that were too slow, without the utility to warrant the risk, like links ftlit and dtilt. My point in all of this is, Pit was meh in 3.5 not garbage, but also not great. Pit got exactly what he needed. Pretty big buffs to moves that were already good and a toning down of his usmash, which was a little too polarizing.

This is what should happen to Link, but the mark was missed by a couple of buffs here and there. Links recovery is still free as hell to challenge and doing this often nets you a stock on Link and really unfortunately low percents, because of the open frames, low knockback, short distance both horizontal and vertical, and slow movement of his up-b. As well as his Tether being extremely free to edgeguard (like all tethers) This weakness is compounded by the fact that putting Link offstage is fairly easy to do with faster characters, because of his poor oos options, large size, poor combo weight, poor mobility, and slow grab, slow moves, slow to come out projectiles, slow jump squat, low jump height.... ect ect ect ect.

I was gonna go on and make a point, but honestly its been 2 updates and many years of singing the same old tired song.

I realize that this doesn't make me look very intelligent, but honestly I've lost hope that this character will get what he needs. 3.6 did a great job of toning down his reliance on projectiles, but then did nothing to help him take on his bad matchups against faster characters.

#Justplaytoonlink.

 

[EmptySky00]

Anyway, does anyone know what Link's run speed was in 2.0-2.5 or whatever? It got buffed slightly in 2.6 but the change log was super ambiguous lol.

Edit: it was 1.3 then it went to 1.35. I found it finally.

I'm fine with Link for the most part.


Aside from the top question, let's talk about a few more minor tweaks that I think Link should have for the sake of eliminating jank.


His boomerang. The hitbox shrinks significantly after frame 5 allowing it to go through some projectiles (If he and TL throw their boomerangs simultaneously, Link's can go right through his even though the models are clearly touching) and over some characters' heads. Toon Link's shrinks after frame 3, but not nearly as much. His is also bigger and he's lower to the ground. I feel like this should be at least slightly tweaked. Last time I brought this up no one said anything. I understand that a lot of hitboxes shrink after their sweetspot is over; his Nair and whatever else does too, but it's generally not to the point of being significant. This, however, adds a really stupid dynamic to a lot of matchups that I feel shouldn't be there.

 

[Thor]

Anyway, does anyone know what Link's run speed was in 2.0-2.5 or whatever? It got buffed slightly in 2.6 but the change log was super ambiguous lol.

Edit: it was 1.3 then it went to 1.35. I found it finally.

I'm fine with Link for the most part.


Aside from the top question, let's talk about a few more minor tweaks that I think Link should have for the sake of eliminating jank.


His boomerang. The hitbox shrinks significantly after frame 5 allowing it to go through some projectiles (If he and TL throw their boomerangs simultaneously, Link's can go right through his even though the models are clearly touching) and over some characters' heads. Toon Link's shrinks after frame 3, but not nearly as much. His is also bigger and he's lower to the ground. I feel like this should be at least slightly tweaked. Last time I brought this up no one said anything. I understand that a lot of hitboxes shrink after their sweetspot is over; his Nair and whatever else does too, but it's generally not to the point of being significant. This, however, adds a really stupid dynamic to a lot of matchups that I feel shouldn't be there.

For what it's worth, the nerf to Lucario's dash animation makes this a non-issue in at least that matchup.

Who can actually run underneath it? Tbh I'd be totally fine with Puff being able to [Puff running at Link is 100% fine by me since our jab walls her out that way], although that'd probably mean Kirby could which is a little tricky to deal with [but he also has lower airspeed so he can't just balloon in at us like Puff can]. Is Pikachu an issue? Sheik?

 

[EmptySky00]

Sheik, Marth, Roy, if I'm not mistaken.

It's not really about who it happens against but rather that it happens at all. My cousin was actually ******** about not being able to dash under boomerang and I impolitely told him to **** off lol. I don't think that should be a dynamic of the MU where horizontally thrown boomerang becomes nullified because of low dash animations. You can argue that I can just jump and throw it downwards, but there are inherent holes in being forced to do that. You cover far fewer options and it just leaves you vulnerable and you shouldn't have to do that just because of a bad hitbox on one of your key moves.

 

[EmptySky00]

Also, in addition to that I want to bring up Usmash again. I've established that I actually like this character this version outside of this change, but I want to refute this idea that the Usmash SDI modifier removal was a good change.

So let's sit back and assume their reasoning for this change. Was it because the move comboed too well? Or perhaps it did too much damage? Too much range? Too much reward for too little risk? Whatever the case was, you should tone down the particular aspect of it that was deemed to be too good. Instead of doing this, their solution was to make it so that the opponent can SDI out of the hits and effectively punish the Link player for using it and successfully landing the attack. Now, this might not be a significant or consistent issue at low-mid level play since the optimal counterplay to everything won't be used very often, but I don't think that their intent is to design this game for low-mid level play, and the goal should be to make characters have viable options at top level.

At top level play, however, if using an option will get you punished when the opponent engages any sort of counterplay, then the option is effectively unusable. As I said prior, you don't balance a move by introducing extreme counterplay that makes it effectively punish the player for successfully using it. It should never be considered problematic that landing a move actually nets the user the reward of landing the move to the point where you make it so the opponent can roll their face on the controller and fall out of it. Moves should be designed to work consistently and not punish players for using them.

 

[Shadic]

Please edit your post instead of double-posting, @ E EmptySky00 .

And Usmash's connecting issues are being looked into. It received an SDI adjustment/normalization to match the general design changes set out in 3.5, it was simply looked over at that point in time.

 

[EmptySky00]

Please edit your post instead of double-posting, @ E EmptySky00 .

And Usmash's connecting issues are being looked into. It received an SDI adjustment/normalization to match the general design changes set out in 3.5, it was simply looked over at that point in time.

My b, I was kind of absentminded because I didn't sleep until 9am. /johns

Alright, that's fine then. I just wanted to get my thoughts out on it. I actually really like this version of Link and I don't want this Usmash thing getting in the way of enjoying an otherwise decent version of Link. I just want his moves to work lol. And most of them do now in this update, which is awesome. Annnd theeeeennnnn, Usmash. Fml.

Why in particular is it a necessity to universally tone down SDI modifiers? I don't think SDI should necessarily be removed as an interaction with multi hit moves, but at the point where SDI just answers them completely, having multi hits on a move just seems like a liability. I honestly felt like the move was perfect before. But it's you guys' design direction and I have no other choice than to leave it in your capable hands I guess. Perhaps make it so the first hit has normal SDI modifiers? Then it would be more of a reaction based thing instead of the multitude of hits making it super easy to do.

 

[TFerg]

@Magi please shed some enlightenment on the godliness of 3.6 lank

 

[Problem2]

Being a long time advocate of Melee b-air and Melee bombs, I'm just glad Link finally has one of these now. It feels so great to have my b-air back. Now I just need those amazing bombs.

The mobility improvement feels super good too. I gladly exchange a faster boomerang for this stuff.

 

[Shadic]

3.5 Nair was a buffed Melee Bair already, just saying.

 

[EmptySky00]

What's better about Melee bombs

 

[Beorn]

What's better about Melee bombs

They have less knockback at higher percents, making conversions into kill moves much easier. Down side is they make bomb jumping less effective, but honestly so does hitting anything with a spin attack at any point in a stock, so this is a good trade.

 

[JesteRace]

I feel like they're getting closer and closer to what a perfect Link would be to me. Decentralization of projectiles, slowly getting more mobile (removing a frame from his jumpsquat in 3.5 was HUGE), and his throw followups justify the risk of getting a grab while not being entirely free/brainless. All I want now is little stuff. Like Melee bombs (the distance at least), tweaks to upsmash, etc. So far, Link continues to be the reason I main PM and advocate for it.

 

[Thor]

They have less knockback at higher percents, making conversions into kill moves much easier. Down side is they make bomb jumping less effective, but honestly so does hitting anything with a spin attack at any point in a stock, so this is a good trade.

I prefer PM bombs. PM bombs are better at damage building (I think?) and you can convert them into uairs just fine [and while that's not quite as strong as a dair, PM bombs pop them up higher helping to make up for the distance at the right percents]. They also break CC earlier in PM as far as I know, which is a huge plus, and with the extra KB they can launch people onto platforms at lower percents to set up tech chases that Link likes. It's not like Melee bombs auto-combo into things anyway... with good DI it's not any easier to convert off a bomb than it is off boomerang (yay SDI?).

I feel like they're getting closer and closer to what a perfect Link would be to me. Decentralization of projectiles, slowly getting more mobile (removing a frame from his jumpsquat in 3.5 was HUGE), and his throw followups justify the risk of getting a grab while not being entirely free/brainless. All I want now is little stuff. Like Melee bombs (the distance at least), tweaks to upsmash, etc. So far, Link continues to be the reason I main PM and advocate for it.

"Like Melee bombs (the distance at least)"

Unclear on what you mean by this - throw distances in PM and Melee are the same as far as I can tell.

As far as usmash... I wondering if the SDI modifier can be retweaked or else if the move can be changed to function better [via animation or something]. A total lack of SDIability on moves obviously isn't what the PMDT wants, but it seems there are a lot of complaints with 3.6 beta usmash, which is unfortunate because some other positive steps were taken.

 

[JesteRace]

Unclear on what you mean by this - throw distances in PM and Melee are the same as far as I can tell.

As far as usmash... I wondering if the SDI modifier can be retweaked or else if the move can be changed to function better [via animation or something]. A total lack of SDIability on moves obviously isn't what the PMDT wants, but it seems there are a lot of complaints with 3.6 beta usmash, which is unfortunate because some other positive steps were taken.

Really? Dang, it's been a while since I played Melee Link. It just feels like the bombs go nowhere since 3.5. So, whatever it was in 3.02, I liked that, and I didn't understand why it was nerfed, cause it definitely wasn't the problematic projectile. Bomb punting does help with that, though. As for upsmash, I agree. I definitely think people should be able to get out of it, just shouldn't be able to punish Link for landing it. But again, it's just small stuff, I love this Link.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I feel like they're getting closer and closer to what a perfect Link would be to me. Decentralization of projectiles, slowly getting more mobile (removing a frame from his jumpsquat in 3.5 was HUGE), and his throw followups justify the risk of getting a grab while not being entirely free/brainless. All I want now is little stuff. Like Melee bombs (the distance at least), tweaks to upsmash, etc. So far, Link continues to be the reason I main PM and advocate for it.

I agree with this to an extent, the design path they're taking certainly seems to be going in the right direction, but I personally don't feel like it's enough yet. I suppose time will tell, but I'm pretty firm in my opinion, considering I play a long time link player who can back up my opinion with the first hand experience I've gotten playing him. I'm not going to go into too much detail on my thoughts unless it's desired, so all I'm going to say he's fun to move with, but his moves still seem pretty lacking. Also I'll just say this, his grab is major boo boo, I cry pretty much every time I use it.

 

[EmptySky00]

Is anyone else getting hard Roy zoned with the second hit of usmash? Idr it ever happening in 3.5. It's just weird. And pickleman I'm curious as to what you think needs changed still.