Link 3.6 Changes

[Deleted member]

I have actually tested adding 4 more active frames to the part of the animation where his leg is still out. It still ends with the hitbubble changes the DT made. It allows you to do melee stuff, while only being half of the missing frames. It is pretty ****ing awesome.

^ smells like a filthy chaingrabber

only my character should be allowed to chaingrab

your dog wears a diaper

 

[Beorn]

^ smells like a filthy chaingrabber

only my character should be allowed to chaingrab

your dog wears a diaper

I.... What?

 

[EmptySky00]

Where on earth are you getting the number 4? Melee nair is active frames 4-39 and ends on frame 39, with IASA on frame 36. If I am reading the frame data thread correctly, current nair is active frames 4-31. It's 8 frames back, and those 8 frames are what allow for things like double nair on shield, as well as [if my math is correct] a spaced autocancel nair on shield (if the shieldstun and shieldhitlag numbers carried over from Melee, I believe properly spaced autocancel late nair on sheld is +1). It makes Link's fullhop nair a lot better and also means if you can time when you hit the nair carefully, it's easier to combo out of, since you could do another action literally the next frame if you're perfect [landing AC nair -> DACUS is something he'd potentially have if the nair was actually made into Melee nair].

Hitbox ends 4 frames before the animation ends.



I think removing the "visual bug" was completely unnecessary. Especially if it results in a hard nerf. It was fine before. Change it back please.

 

[Thor]

Hitbox ends 4 frames before the animation ends.

Incorrect. Hitbox ends 4 frames before IASA starts, and IASA lasts for 4 frames [36, 37, 38, 39]. It's missing 8 frames relative to Melee nair, as I stated earlier.

@ Shadic is there any reasoning for the PMDT to NOT reimplement Melee nair frame data? I frankly wouldn't even mind if it had a damage reduction to go back to Melee damage [although I think it's unnecessary, since Link would hardly be broken with 8 more frames on a sourspot nair... it would just make the move more useful]. As it stands Nair is nerfed relative to Melee, and it was nowhere near as broken as a shine, lasers, wobbling, or Sheik NTSC dthrow [the only things I can come up with off the top of my head that were nerfed/removed when moving from PM to Melee] (and wobbling wasn't even busted in Melee, the PMDT just doesn't like infinites as a design choice).

 

[EmptySky00]

Incorrect. Hitbox ends 4 frames before IASA starts, and IASA lasts for 4 frames [36, 37, 38, 39]. It's missing 8 frames relative to Melee nair, as I stated earlier.

@ Shadic is there any reasoning for the PMDT to NOT reimplement Melee nair frame data? I frankly wouldn't even mind if it had a damage reduction to go back to Melee damage [although I think it's unnecessary, since Link would hardly be broken with 8 more frames on a sourspot nair... it would just make the move more useful]. As it stands Nair is nerfed relative to Melee, and it was nowhere near as broken as a shine, lasers, wobbling, or Sheik NTSC dthrow [the only things I can come up with off the top of my head that were nerfed/removed when moving from PM to Melee] (and wobbling wasn't even busted in Melee, the PMDT just doesn't like infinites as a design choice).

I really can't express how insignificant the distinction is. I really really don't care.


By making that wobbling/shine/whatever comparison you could justify anything. Seems a tad silly.

 

[Thor]

I really can't express how insignificant the distinction is. I really really don't care.


By making that wobbling/shine/whatever comparison you could justify anything. Seems a tad silly.

The distinction is quite relevant if nair is actually to be reverted.

That comparison is because it's among the only things nerfed from Melee that wasn't actually broken. Most characters had no other tools removed [I forgot Firefox and aerial shine, but whatever]... if you look at Marth, Peach, Falcon, Puff, Mario, Pikachu, Ganondorf, etc., they all basically only received buffs, or some moves may have gone sideways, but nair is currently worse [and it was 100% worse in 3.5 and earlier, the percentage buff matters only if you hit the sweetspot on shields when fresh, which is extremely rare because Link's nair is almost always stale], and it was never broken to begin with.

I couldn't justify just about anything, but only reverting things that weren't broken in Melee that are worse in PM... that's Link's nair and... nothing else??? I can't think of anything else that was decidedly nerfed on a character that wasn't broken, much less something that made a difference in a variety of situations [double nair, nair combos with weak nair are up to 4 frames easier to connect or you can arrive 8 frames later and still hit with the nair to extend or start a combo, etc.].

 

[EmptySky00]

I ******* about Nair for months after it got changed (the first time and in 3.5) and got into a huge debate with hylian over it. But IASA is far more relevant than the end of the animation. So whatever.

 

[Tristan's Rule]

Hopefully those grab issues get fixed before Paragon.

I'd hate to refrain from using my Link cause of a small aesthetic change that ****ed with actual hitbox frames

 

[frankxthexbunny]

Thor's argument is ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with link's nair. Of all his attacks, that one is not the attack that needs attention in the slightest. I could explain which ones I think need it, but i'd be beating a dead horse since his actually broken/severely gimped attacks have already been drawn attention to. **** I ended my sentence with a preposition.

 

[JesteRace]

Apparently, the grab change is there because they fixed a "glitch" where if you grab someone at max range, there's a short pause. That's what it has to be, cause there's nothing else in the changelist. Really dumb to "fix a glitch" by "making it not grab at max range"

 

[frankxthexbunny]

That makes sense, because if I make a cake, and I frost it wrong in one side, I just cut a quarter of the cake off and throw it away instead of just refrosting it.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I personally don't think thor's argument is ridiculous at all. The sole reason why those active frames were removed was because they didn't match the animation, and that's reasonable. It is a fact however, that one of melee link's main tools and one of the things that give him identity in that game was his nair, and he was still regarded as a mid tier at best. Thor might be putting a little too much emphasis on the exact frame data it needs, but that's understandable and it just shows drive on his part. An increase in active frames and an adjustment in the animation to show such frames, to match melee a little better, seems like relatively fair change. When you look at this game you have to remember that everyone has something good, and then they have a lot of ridiculous stuff on top of that. Just having something good makes you bad in this game. So yeah link's nair is good still, but nearly everyone else has a better one, hence he has a bad relative to everyone else.

As a side note, I don't particularly envy shadic if he's in charge of designing link, not because he's a bad guy or anything, but the fact there is an enormous amount of misinformation, and surprisingly a lot of disdain, towards link, and I could only imagine the difficulty in purposing any kind of change for link that doesn't involve a severe beating with the nerf stick

 

[EmptySky00]

I thought when I signed onto Link back in Melee/Brawl days I was immune to character slander.


Then came Project: M where every character is the target of epithets and libel. Guess I have to throw more boomerang.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

It's a self fulfilling prophecy mang, they hate link for throwing stuff, you deal with the hate by throwing stuff. It never ends and no one wins, unless you hit them with stuff, then you pocket their entry fee.

 

[EmptySky00]

Haha I got you. Whenever people get salty in set I just throw more stuff. If they want to hand me the mental battle on a platter and all they ask of me is to press side B, I'll gladly take it and feast upon their tears.


Furthermore @ Beorn the Samus frame data thread says her grab is 17, not 14. It really doesn't matter but if that is to be believed I was correct all along. I'm such a frame *****.



Ivysaur's is 14 though.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

No Beorn is right, I just checked on dolphin, they be super wrong lol.

 

[EmptySky00]

Well I wasn't really trying to correct him, just saying that I was correct in recounting the information I saw.


It's important to me, alright? )';


Edit: I don't think the grab bug thing is a reason to not play Link in tournament, but it's definitely something that should be fixed. I may have said it before but I thought the short pause on full length grab was kind of cool-looking. I think nerfing actual utility for the sake of remedying visual bugs is absurd. This goes for Nair as well.

 

[Deleted member]

frankly i think link would be super easy to finish for a final release. but i also feel that way about sheik ike marth falco etc.

 

[Beorn]

frankly i think link would be super easy to finish for a final release. but i also feel that way about sheik ike marth falco etc.

Unfortunately, making Link balanced would be very easy. Fighting people to make those changes, on a character that almost no one has accurate information on and hates apparently, is a much more difficult problem.

 

[Deleted member]

Unfortunately, making Link balanced would be very easy. Fighting people to make those changes, on a character that almost no one has accurate information on and hates apparently, is a much more difficult problem.

hard ignorance doesnt fly in the dev team. im sure theres a reason these thigs turn out the way they do- they might even be very good reasons we're not privy to. certainly no shortage of speculative politics with project m in general, but i find it hard to believe that is the case for a character as understood and normalized as link is.

 

[Beorn]

hard ignorance doesnt fly in the dev team. im sure theres a reason these thigs turn out the way they do- they might even be very good reasons we're not privy to. certainly no shortage of speculative politics with project m in general, but i find it hard to believe that is the case for a character as understood and normalized as link is.

I don't exactly mean the active members of the DT so much as public image for Link.

 

[Tristan's Rule]

O Man opinions abooot balance
HEEEEEREEEE WE GOOOOOOO

 

[E2xD]

I say we revert Link's Grab back to 2.1. BALANCE. Kappa

 

[Thor]

I say we revert Link's Grab back to 2.1. BALANCE. Kappa

I got into PM in 2.6b basically [when MK came out]. I do remember boomerang being amazing safe [I was beating people definitely better than me by running away more than usual and using copious amounts of side+b], but I have no idea what his 2.1 grab was... was the frame data on it akin to like a normal dash grab, or did it grab people out of the air, or what?

EDIT: Also ditto Mr. Pickle's sentiment that Shadic is probably in an icky position... I may be annoyed with some changes [like the grab], but I don't consider the politics around PM nearly as much as I should. I may be annoyed with certain changes [or the distinct lack thereof] but I think framing those things in terms of understanding that many people can't tolerate a truly viable zoning character would make Link changes suddenly seem logical, if not optimal.

 

[E2xD]

I'm just gonna say, I am very mad at the lingering frames missing on grab. I've been trying to deal with it for almost a week, but when I try to read people's landing, those 3 frames make a difference. Its stupid the slight distance nerf, but the 3 frames removed from the end really messed up Link's Grab game.

As for Link's 2.1 grab, the chain (not just the hand) could grab in the air. Therefore you could cg almost the whole cast and link had a confirmed 0-death on characters like Lucas. Oh good times.

 

[JesteRace]

Yeah, the grab needs to be fixed. BEFORE 4.0.

 

[Thor]

I'm just gonna say, I am very mad at the lingering frames missing on grab. I've been trying to deal with it for almost a week, but when I try to read people's landing, those 3 frames make a difference. Its stupid the slight distance nerf, but the 3 frames removed from the end really messed up Link's Grab game.

As for Link's 2.1 grab, the chain (not just the hand) could grab in the air. Therefore you could cg almost the whole cast and link had a confirmed 0-death on characters like Lucas. Oh good times.

I think if the chain could grab in the air, but we had a dthrow more like the old one [where people popped really high and couldn't be regrabbed because they were too high up... so way more BKB], it would probably be workable balance-wise [but would generate far too much salt from everyone to be something that could be left in PM... people would cite it as a broken thing that needs fixing when it likely wouldn't be].

That sounds hilarious though... does anyone know where I can get PM 2.1 files? I'd love to mess around with 2.1 Link at some point when I have my own Wii with SD cards again.

 

[GarmWyrda]

So.. can we still whine about the grab change thing ?
I'm a bit late to the party, but yeah... It's really annoying/frustrating. It's really hard to grab someone who is falling to the ground with anticipation now...
And the change was for removing the little "pause" when it was at max range, right ? I thought that was cool (well it did generates some salt, but hey, that's part of the game !)

Anyway, I don't like to cry/whine/whatever but I really think this was not needed, and it hurts our game a liiiiittle too much.

 

[Deleted member]

this is a forum specifically dedicated to link players. we just come here to cry together really. group therapy.

 

[JesteRace]

Except for Red1. He's too busy placing at majors.

 

[TheBigChew]

Except for Red1. He's too busy placing at majors.

Red1 is godlike, but I hate the way he plays link. Too much spin 2 win, his link is so boring to watch imo. For example id rather watch Emptysky play link in a bunch of friendlies against randoms rather than red1 vs Axe, M2k, luncahbles ect. This is because I love the way empty plays link, fast pace.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Well no one really knows how to deal with link, so if you're consistent and do link stuff, you'll probably win. The character can be absolute booty cheeks, which he is, but if people don't know how to deal with all the stuff link throws at them, and all the spinning/grabbing, it'll be a fast track to having their entry fee in dude's pocket.

 

[EmptySky00]

I'm bad at Link. I'm not even as flashy as I like to pretend I am. Whatever. Emo corner.

So I just want to bring this up to those in authority and emphasize just how stupid making Link's Usmash SDI'able is for another reason. Being able to SDI it is supposed to add "counterplay" and "interaction" and enable "skill" or whatever buzz words we're going to use to justify it, but I was literally playing against random freshmen at my college's game club to search for anyone who might be worth teaching, and complete casuals who have never heard of DI in their life were consistently falling out of both Link's and Pit's Usmashes. If casuals can do it consistently on accident then it no longer becomes a medium of skillful counterplay but rather pushes the move into the realm of being absolutely worthless and inconsistent. I know Shadic tried to fix it with the angle change, and I appreciate the attempt, but I really would like to make an appeal for it being reverted to 3.5 when the move was fully functional instead of trying to re-engineer the angles of the attack to work again 50% of the time as opposed to 0%.
I could see aerials having SDI as a valid counterplay option because you have more control over how you follow the opponent so it actually lends to defensive-offensive interaction, but with grounded 3 hit attacks with large gaps inbetween the hits? Come on now. *And* you can just CC/ASDI the first hit then shield the rest. There are just far too many holes in this move for it to be considered viable. And these are holes that were forced in this version which is what makes it so frustrating.

 

[E2xD]

Except for Red1. He's too busy placing at majors.

Except Red1 told me to bring up this **** here because he doesn't use smashboards. Kek. I barely use this, but this "bug"/"oversight"/whatever they want to cover it up as was too ridiculous to go ignored and Red egged me to post it on here.

So grab fix/acknowledgement when?

 

[E2xD]

Well no one really knows how to deal with link, so if you're consistent and do link stuff, you'll probably win. The character can be absolute booty cheeks, which he is, but if people don't know how to deal with all the stuff link throws at them, and all the spinning/grabbing, it'll be a fast track to having their entry fee in dude's pocket.

I love you and your picture. That is all.

 

[JesteRace]

My snarky comment was not to undeplay the fact that our grab is unacceptable. I agree with Empty on our upsmash too. I don't think Link is nearly as bad as Mr. Pickle and Beorn say. I think if they fix the grab and upsmash, we'll be fine. If, ideally, we could get better AGT's (mostly horizontally), a usable ftilt, and melee nair (just the active frames, keep the current damage); I would be totally happy with my favorite character.

P.S. I'd be very interested to see you money match Red1, Mr. Pickle.

 

[E2xD]

My snarky comment was not to undeplay the fact that our grab is unacceptable. I agree with Empty on our upsmash too. I don't think Link is nearly as bad as Mr. Pickle and Beorn say. I think if they fix the grab and upsmash, we'll be fine. If, ideally, we could get better AGT's (mostly horizontally), a usable ftilt, and melee nair (just the active frames, keep the current damage); I would be totally happy with my favorite character.

Link's AGT is fine along with f-tilt. If you speed up f-tilt it would be beyond stupid. We're looking at 3.02 rang stupid. I mean they balanced out the move as a whole making it an actual kill move now instead of just slowing it down for no reason (see 3.5).

Link isn't bad, but he isn't optimal. I honestly don't think he needs his melee nair back (hitbox/knockback wise). As for his upsmash...I've never had any issue because 1) it's barely a kill move, 2) I can use u-tilt/u-air to extend combo and not risk the uncertainty of upsmash. I mean, you and i could argue its useless and we have to rely on other moves to do it's job. Its becoming rather silly how on the PM Main Character Page, it says "The Up-Smash has been sped up as well so that the three slashes can link together better" but in reality, they made it so you can just sdi the first and the move becomes completely useless.

Don't get me wrong though, I could come up with an argument on something to complain about with Link, because he isn't optimal and we're getting lied to here and there with stuff completely removed without warning or was complete oversight. I'm not one to complain unless it was something stupid/significant as the grab was. Link's Grab is high risk, high reward. If you miss, ggs. Now it has become Extreme risk, high reward with the missing three frames of the grabbox and the slightly shorter grab distance. And the matter of fact that the higherups are not/barely acknowledging this is really getting to me.

 

[JesteRace]

I don't want them to speed up his f-tilt. I want a different one. I'll admit that I don't know how to optimize Link either, but I've always liked "stay away" ftilts used for spacing more than kill move ftilts. I mean, as it is now, there's almost always a better option than ftilt. And as for his AGT, vertically, it's fine. But is there any reason for it to not get the same distance horizontally? Wouldn't "fix" the character, but I'm all for small improvements to mobility. I only want the upsmash fixed for fast faller matchups, really. But of course, we can all agree that the grab is the worst BS going on and that needs to be fixed immediately. I'm curious, though, E2xD. If you're fine with everything else, how would you optimize Link?

 

[E2xD]

His f-tilt is one of my current favorite moves because it's a great read based/edge guarding tool. Link has so many spacing tools; why would you want an f-tilt for the purpose of spacing? You have three projectiles, jab, zair, and fair to keep spacing. At least make one of his tilts a reliable horizontal kill move (I.e. f-tilt).

Give me grab that isn't busted. Give Link the power (damage) of 3.02 rang with the current frame data (why tf does tink have a stronger rang). Link is a fatty so giving him a more horizontal agt would look wrong. Give link back the hit box behind his head on up b (the one used to detonate bombs).

Honestly I would be a happy camper (pun intended) with just grab being fixed,

 

[EmptySky00]

Link isn't really a fatty.
Also, Link's rang has 2 more frames of sweetspot than Toon Link's.
I also don't think Ftilt being sped up would make it 3.02 boomerang status. At all. That's the worst hyperbole.