Link 3.6 Changes

[E2xD]

Give Link's Rang* Typing on Mobile sucks.
I never mentioned speeding up f-tilt. I think it is perfect the way it is nor was I comparing it to rang. MyB

 

[JesteRace]

I never mentioned speeding up f-tilt. I think it is perfect the way it is nor was I comparing it to rang. MyB

If you speed up f-tilt it would be beyond stupid. We're looking at 3.02 rang stupid.

Just sayin lol
I wouldn't consider Link a fatty either. Currently, you can AGT in any direction you can airdodge. There's the obvious. My point is that if you move the same distance in any direction while airdodging, why not the same for AGT? If we could AGT left or right and get the same distance we get going up or down, that would be sweet for mixups and aerial mobility. Hell, Dedede IS a fatty, and he has an insane glide toss. And yeah, idk what to do with ftilt. It's just the only move in his arsenal I don't like right now.

 

[Thor]

If Link's ftilt was frame 10 it would still be mediocre... it'd be slightly faster for edgeguarding, but it's just not very useful onstage... doesn't set up into anything, not safe on shield, doesn't set up for edgeguards for a while. Pushes them away decently, but it doesn't address his crippling OoS flaws [Link MUST buffer a roll or spotdodge or have insane in-shield-smash-directional-influence [aka shield DI] to escape shine dair pressure... nair OoS and up+b are simply too slow] and resetting the situation horizontally doesn't benefit Link in some of his hardest MUs [Fox Falco Falcon]. Until Link can either effectively maneuver around Fox with better hitboxes than what he has or have a real OoS option to answer Fox stuff, he's still just not gonna cut it [or until we get some obscene punish that probably doesn't belong in PM, ala 2.1 grab].

Ftilt is currently good for edgeguarding, as it covers a big arc that can stop tournament winner (y on ledge) and hits below the ledge slightly [against one Lucas main, I literally just wait to ftilt him off the ledge, and he can never seem to get around it... I'm literally able to boil the MU down to put him on the edge and ftilt/spin attack... although at some point soon I'm going to work to help find a way around it so I can stop simply holding slightly forward, press A with good timing, and win]. It's much safer than spin attack and hits lower too. However, I frankly can't see how it being faster would make it any good... if someone wants to explain it, go ahead and try, but I'd rather jab and attempt something amusing or just SH nair [9 frames] over if ftilt was frame 10.

I met @Mr.Pickle today. He said I apparently do a very slightly better job of recovering than @ Beorn , but I may have very well misheard/misinterpreted what he said/meant [or just given an inaccurate impression].

 

[E2xD]

But I wasnt saying speed it up because it would be stupid (3.02 rang levels* of stupid/braindead).

 

[EmptySky00]

... I think there's been a breakdown of communication. Let's start over.

Hi, I'm Empty and I play Link.

 

[Thor]

... I think there's been a breakdown of communication. Let's start over.

Hi, I'm Empty and I play Link.

Hi I'm Thor and I play Link too.

I don't see the point of forward tilt outside of edgeguarding. It seems useless except as a mediocre get-off-me-tool. When will the PMDT give us real answers to Fox shine dair pressure [instead of just better rolls]?

 

[EmptySky00]

Not like speeding up Ftilt will particularly remedy shine pressure. I don't think any character has answers to that.

 

[Thor]

Not like speeding up Ftilt will particularly remedy shine pressure. I don't think any character has answers to that.

Fox Falco Wolf all have shine OoS [Falco's will clank]. Puff technically has rest OoS [lol]. Samus has screw attack. Bowser has up+b OoS. Sheik nair OoS should trade [that's frame 6 and shine dair is at best 6 frames actionability, assuming they time dair perfectly (you will be off by at max 2 frames since it hits every 3 frames from what I remember) you will at least trade]. All grabs at frame 7 can armor through unless Fox is frame-perfect on the dair. GnW has up+b OoS. Marth has Dolphin Slash OoS [invincible frame 6 so it beats it, risky of course but still there]. Falcon doesn't (his best option seems to be pray OoS). Peach has up+B OoS. Wario might have up+B OoS [IDK how fast it hits, probably not]. Mario should have up+B OoS [that's like frame 5?]. I'm going off the top of my head for this list so I may have somehow hit all OoS options that respond to it if frame-perfect but I doubt it.

No one has answers to multishining [except Samus/Bowser/pre-patch GnW] but that's whatever. The fact that Link can't handle Fox shine dair pressure and gets waveshined is super obnoxious [at least someone like Kirby doesn't get waveshined], although he isn't the only one if it's frame-perfect, but he is (As far as I know) the only one who can't even if Fox is only frame-perfect on the shine [up+B OoS and nair are frame 9, too slow... only other tether grabs could potentially have the issue, but I think Lucas nair and Ivy nair are fast enough, while Yoshi could nair I'm pretty sure, or DJC nair after the shine, although that's highly impractical].

[I know most those options are risky, but they do exist... Link's options don't exist].

 

[EmptySky00]

Idk I just think dwelling on an irrelevant move like Ftilt is a waste of time when they could just make Usmash and grab work properly then make boomerang not go over people and suddenly our character is 20% more solid. Making Ftilt good would do absolutely nothing for us imo.

 

[JesteRace]

So why can't Link's nair come out sooner? That'd do wonders for the matchup and wouldn't break any of his other matchups... would it?

 

[E2xD]

Link Mortal Draw taunt when? (See Brawl - )

... I think there's been a breakdown of communication. Let's start over.

Hi, I'm Empty and I play Link.

Hi, I'm E2xD/Edd/Double D, and I play Lank.

 

[E2xD]

So why can't Link's nair come out sooner? That'd do wonders for the matchup and wouldn't break any of his other matchups... would it?

Link's nair is legit fine. They theoretically buffed it since 3.02 in terms of speed by removing 1 frame from his JS, but thats besides the point. His nair if anything, needs a tad bit more priority to deal with aerials of spacies nair/bair. I dont even trade most the time with them, just lose the priority move game.

As to dealing with shine pressure, more Links need to bait out falling aerials into shines and punish with either grabs or down smashes. Just wd back or space a bit better in terms of position.

 

[Thor]

Link's nair is legit fine. They theoretically buffed it since 3.02 in terms of speed by removing 1 frame from his JS, but thats besides the point. His nair if anything, needs a tad bit more priority to deal with aerials of spacies nair/bair. I dont even trade most the time with them, just lose the priority move game.

As to dealing with shine pressure, more Links need to bait out falling aerials into shines and punish with either grabs or down smashes. Just wd back or space a bit better in terms of position.

Come in from above - the nair that is on top almost always wins (nair has much better coverage above and below). I usually trade or beat spacie nairs/bairs [lose to fresh bair but ya kinda deserve that since they spaced around nair, and even then I trade a decent bit]. Also priority isn't really a thing, it's just some made-up concept someone thought was a thing - it's really all about hitbox placement and disjoints.

I just want the extra frames back on nair and Link usmash reverted. And maybe the uair fix Mr.Pickle says he submitted since it was apparently only partly fixed [not fully addressed].

 

[Zoa]

Question. Would giving Link a regular grab without the Clawshot break his design or be too good? The way I'm looking at it it buffs his OoS game, and makes grabbing less dangerous due to less end lag and Link's poor mobility options. He could even grab out of the air. I've been maining him since 64, but I don't have the knowledge you guys do regarding him.

 

[Thor]

Question. Would giving Link a regular grab without the Clawshot break his design or be too good? The way I'm looking at it it buffs his OoS game, and makes grabbing less dangerous due to less end lag and Link's poor mobility options. He could even grab out of the air. I've been maining him since 64, but I don't have the knowledge you guys do regarding him.

They'd have to nerf dthrow if they did this [Ganondorf still has a godawful grab because his dthrow is busted].

It would also hurt Link's recovery substantially since he couldn't hookshot [there are mixups with this and glide-tossed bombs + up+b that actually make hookshot a useful if committal recovery tool... and it's always good when they aren't even trying to cover ledge, although if Marth is frame perfect he can potentially tipper fsmash you for attempting to hookshot... extremely unlikely and not well-known though].

 

[Zoa]

I forgot to clarify the aerial Clawshot part. I meant for his grounded grab. Would it break his design or affect anything negatively?

 

[Ev1l]

I forgot to clarify the aerial Clawshot part. I meant for his grounded grab. Would it break his design or affect anything negatively?

It wouldnt affect it to bad but link has a bad dash so unlike marth he'll probably have some trouble grabing. I like the chain grab though. I know it can be flimsy or sometimes really hard to grab the opponent but if you time you grabs correctly or bait and attack the chain grab (depending on the character) is so rewarding. Not only that the aerial clawshot can start a combo if you land the last hit properly.

 

[Ev1l]

Idk I just think dwelling on an irrelevant move like Ftilt is a waste of time when they could just make Usmash and grab work properly then make boomerang not go over people and suddenly our character is 20% more solid. Making Ftilt good would do absolutely nothing for us imo.

I wouldnt say ftilt is irrelevant. if used properly it can be used for spacing just like the jab witch can be safe also be used for shield pressure but in this case jabs work best but imo ftilt provides an amazing horizontal attack so if to say th opponent attempts a short hop into your face the ftilt comesout just in time to blast them being able to provide a free bomerang provided if thier in the right range ofcourse

 

[Ev1l]

My concern to link in 3.6 vs link in melee is the bomerangs direction doesnt make a diffrence on how the opponent get stunned... to say in melee the bom thrown in a downward direction lifts the opponent up providing a free Fair (depending on characters and percentage) the upper direction will do the same but much harder to pull and best just to create space between you and the opponent the normal direction pushs the opponent back.. but in 3.6 doesnt even matter what direction you use it will still push them back and only when the opponent is in a higher percent range is when they get a slit lift

 

[Shadic]

@ Ev1l @ E2xD - Please don't double/triple post. Thanks.

 

[EmptySky00]

I wouldnt say ftilt is irrelevant. if used properly it can be used for spacing just like the jab witch can be safe also be used for shield pressure but in this case jabs work best but imo ftilt provides an amazing horizontal attack so if to say th opponent attempts a short hop into your face the ftilt comesout just in time to blast them being able to provide a free bomerang provided if thier in the right range ofcourse

So, basically you just described a move that's irrelevant because you could have done that with literally any other hitbox.

You're mistaking irrelevant with useless. Saying "But you can use it in this scenario" doesn't make it less irrelevant. The move does nothing for the character nor does it need to. It's an option in some situations but ultimately doesn't hold any significance in the character's viability.


edit: having a regular grab would almost certainly be a buff, but it breaks the flavor of Link. Not that it's an argument of logic, but I like that he uses the clawshot. And if we did that, then why even stop there? Why not just eliminate tether grabs since they're usually just inferior anyway? Because that's homogenizing the cast.

 

[E2xD]

@ Ev1l @ E2xD - Please don't double/triple post. Thanks.

If you look at the times of the post prior, it was sent almost at the same time as my first one. I had no intention of double posting and I wanted to respond to him as well. I apologize.

I would argue the non-tether grab could be a buff, but then that kinda ruins all of what Link was and is. He doesn't have much in terms of animations to use from other games besides sumo grabbing in Twilight Princess. Haha. But for real, his grab is "fine" (minus the current data of it ).

 

[Zoa]

Okay. Interesting views on the grab. I have noticed something though. Link doesn't fully extend his arm with the Clawshot. I've heard valid complaints in my weeklies about the small hand grab box and it grabbing aerial opponents. This is just for discussion, but how about fully extending Link's arm to extend grabbing range on aerial opponents? This in turn would lengthen Clawshot grabbing range as well, and would match the stance every Link takes when using a grappling device in the Zelda games.

 

[E2xD]

Make Link's grab game even better?! Kreygasm

 

[Ev1l]

So, basically you just described a move that's irrelevant because you could have done that with literally any other hitbox.

You're mistaking irrelevant with useless. Saying "But you can use it in this scenario" doesn't make it less irrelevant. The move does nothing for the character nor does it need to. It's an option in some situations but ultimately doesn't hold any significance in the character's viability.


edit: having a regular grab would almost certainly be a buff, but it breaks the flavor of Link. Not that it's an argument of logic, but I like that he uses the clawshot. And if we did that, then why even stop there? Why not just eliminate tether grabs since they're usually just inferior anyway? Because that's homogenizing the cast.

No dude i just told you what you can use that move for...

Okay. Interesting views on the grab. I have noticed something though. Link doesn't fully extend his arm with the Clawshot. I've heard valid complaints in my weeklies about the small hand grab box and it grabbing aerial opponents. This is just for discussion, but how about fully extending Link's arm to extend grabbing range on aerial opponents? This in turn would lengthen Clawshot grabbing range as well, and would match the stance every Link takes when using a grappling device in the Zelda games.

True i would approve of that

 

[Ev1l]

Okay. Interesting views on the grab. I have noticed something though. Link doesn't fully extend his arm with the Clawshot. I've heard valid complaints in my weeklies about the small hand grab box and it grabbing aerial opponents. This is just for discussion, but how about fully extending Link's arm to extend grabbing range on aerial opponents? This in turn would lengthen Clawshot grabbing range as well, and would match the stance every Link takes when using a grappling device in the Zelda games.

True i would approve of that

 

[EmptySky00]

No dude i just told you what you can use that move for...

True i would approve of that

And you're clearly not contemplating what I'm trying to say. But it clearly doesn't matter because this debate means nothing to me.

 

[Ev1l]

And you're clearly not contemplating what I'm trying to say. But it clearly doesn't matter because this debate means nothing to me.

My bad dude i didnt mean to post that i understand what your getting at i just needed to re read the post

 

[EmptySky00]

It's all good. It really doesn't matter either way. I just think Ftilt is fine as is.

 

[Thor]

Unless he can sweetspot around it and the Ikes I've been playing are just not very good [a very likely possibility], ftilt is actually quite useful in a few MUs for exactly one situation, with Ike being the one I think it is most useful, and that situation being recovery, because messing around with Ike's recovery offstage is still not terribly easy [and if you mess up you might get stage-spiked but will usually eat some damage], while ftilt has enough range that if you have the timing you just hit him away for almost free if he has to use up+b low. [at which point you can dtilt tip or run off nair to cover side+b it would seem]. It hitting below the ledge [and the relatively good range it has] makes it much safer and more effective than spin attack and the range makes it a bit better than dtilt. It also seems pretty decent vs ROB and Wario's recover y [among others], although they seem to get around it slightly easier.

It is nearly useless onstage unless you want to throw out a KO move if they get to like 150% with less risk than dair/uair/spin-attack/grab onstage [not sure if any safer than fair], but you have to be standing still or walking to do it which makes it seem still not very useful given the relatively high startup... just hitting a nair and then edgeguarding with another nair or ftilt would strike me as more productive and a bit safer since you can be more mobile while doing it. And as Link I seem to struggle a lot more with getting into a favorable position to hit good players than I do with getting away [which is still hard, but easier], so using Link's ftilt onstage strikes me as counterproductive in most MUs because unless they are going offstage, I've given up the chance for more damage [unless someone has like a list of percents where you could DACUS after it or something].

 

[Ev1l]

Unless he can sweetspot around it and the Ikes I've been playing are just not very good [a very likely possibility], ftilt is actually quite useful in a few MUs for exactly one situation, with Ike being the one I think it is most useful, and that situation being recovery, because messing around with Ike's recovery offstage is still not terribly easy [and if you mess up you might get stage-spiked but will usually eat some damage], while ftilt has enough range that if you have the timing you just hit him away for almost free if he has to use up+b low. [at which point you can dtilt tip or run off nair to cover side+b it would seem]. It hitting below the ledge [and the relatively good range it has] makes it much safer and more effective than spin attack and the range makes it a bit better than dtilt. It also seems pretty decent vs ROB and Wario's recover y [among others], although they seem to get around it slightly easier.

It is nearly useless onstage unless you want to throw out a KO move if they get to like 150% with less risk than dair/uair/spin-attack/grab onstage [not sure if any safer than fair], but you have to be standing still or walking to do it which makes it seem still not very useful given the relatively high startup... just hitting a nair and then edgeguarding with another nair or ftilt would strike me as more productive and a bit safer since you can be more mobile while doing it. And as Link I seem to struggle a lot more with getting into a favorable position to hit good players than I do with getting away [which is still hard, but easier], so using Link's ftilt onstage strikes me as counterproductive in most MUs because unless they are going offstage, I've given up the chance for more damage [unless someone has like a list of percents where you could DACUS after it or something].

There are better option then to use ftilt to hit an opponent out of stage. Your right about that and staying more mobile is probably a better choice since link is a bit slow but what truely concerns me is the boomerang unlike melee the downward angle doesnt seem to lift up the opponent it seems to me as if throwing them straight does the same hit stun or causes the opponent to push back.

 

[EmptySky00]

I found decent success with dropping down and Bair'ing Ike's recovery on startup or before startup. Ftilt is also a good option because of how he lingers there briefly. But that doesn't make the move important.

 

[Zingabilly]

seriously. when Is my damn grab going to get fixed?

 

[PeanutReaper486]

I asked Shadic about it during his AMA on reddit, he said 'it's on the list.'

So, I guess they'll get to it around 10AM PMDT Standard Time. At least he knows it's there, and aims to fix it. They can't possibly just leave it there whenever even Toon Link's tether has the pause still.

 

[TurboLink]

Why do Link's bombs still hurt him when they hit an enemy? Can't they make the bombs like Smash 4's bombs where they don't hurt you when they come in contact with an opponent?

 

[Beorn]

Why do Link's bombs still hurt him when they hit an enemy? Can't they make the bombs like Smash 4's bombs where they don't hurt you when they come in contact with an opponent?

I personally think it's an interesting mechanic, and taking it out, as smash 4 did, made Links game less satisfying.

 

[TheBigChew]

Well its been a while everyone, RIP project M updates, still the game is far from dead, now melee and project m are in the same boat, no more patches/updates/buffs/nerfs, the true character grinding will begin. Guess were going to have to put up with links grab never being fixed. Its going to be interesting, lets see how far we can take this character, and really see links limits

 

[PeanutReaper486]

Link's grab is fixed in the dev build.

 

[zeldasmash]

Can someone link me to the dev build? I can't find it