Link 3.6 Changes

[Shadic]

3.6 BOYS.

Tilts
-Forward Tilt
--BKB from 5, 5, 2, 2 to 15, 15, 10, 10.
--Damage reduced by 1 on all hits. 14, 15, 14, 13 to 13, 14, 13, 12.
--Angle reduced from 361 to 35.

-Up Tilt animation tweaked to properly hit opponents in front and behind.

Smashes
-Forward Smash
--Damage increased by 1 on all hits. 14, 15, 15, 15 to 15, 16, 16, 16.

-Up Smash
--SDI multiplier on first hitboxes all normalized to 1.0.

Aerials
-Neutral Aerial
--Sweetspot timing has +1 damage to all hits. 9, 11, 8 to 10, 12, 9.

-Back Aerial
--Replaced KBG with WDSK for static KB to link better into the second hit.
--Second hitbox comes out two frames faster (18 -> 16).
--Overall move IASA remains the same.

-Up Aerial
--Top hitbox raised slightly to better match sword.

-Down Aerial
--Beginning of animation slightly cleaned up sword positioning.
--Hitboxes adjusted very slightly to be better centered on the sword.

Throws
-Back Throw
--Hitbox frame 12 -> 12-13

-Up Throw
--BKB 24 -> 30
--Release frame 28 -> 29
--Endlag 16 -> 20

-Down Throw
--Hitbox size 3.51 -> 4.32
--Hitbox frame 22 -> 22-23
--Release frame 23 -> 28

Specials
-Neutral Special (Hero's Bow)
--No longer slightly moves Link

-Side Special (Boomerang)
--Release frame matched to Melee/Brawl. Releases frame 27 from 23.
--IASA increased from 38 to 43.

Other
-Smoothed out wobbling from sword hitboxes on Down Aerial and Up Aerial.
-Slightly tweaked walking, dashing, running, dash attack, neutral aerial, and back aerial animations.
-Ground friction reduced from 0.1 to 0.09
-Run speed increased from 1.35 to 1.4

Discussion go go.

 

[DarkDeity15]

To be quite honest, I'm disappointed. Most of these are but minor changes and fixes to hitboxes and the like. The only big-ish improvements I see here are the ever so slight buff to Link's running speed (That extra .05 will definitely make a noticeable difference, right? Please tell me I'm right.) and the changes made to his Bair and rang, but at least we have those. Outside of that, there's not much here that makes him a better character. And the nerf to Uthrow though? Why?

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Idk it's definitely a step in the right direction, so don't get too dark mang. I do agree that a lot of these changes are small individually, but that's still a lot of positive stuff. Time will tell if he needs more.

I'll most likely try to get a hold of @ Beorn some time this week to see if we can stream some 3.6 action. I'll see if I can expose whats in the mind of the yung link main, and if the matchup between the little elf man in tights vs the weird floaty fat man in overalls has gotten any better.

 

[Heero Yuy]

Overall am not happy. Might write more on why in the morning.

 

[Beorn]

I'm gonna see how this thread goes before I comment. I would also like to get some hard play time in before I jump the gun. It would be stupid of me to completely write off these changes since many of them are a copy+paste of my personal changes for the character. I will say this, with his best zoning move slowed down on a character with no fast attacks and a terrible grab... This can't be a good combination. It looks like he was nerfed in the matches against fatties, which is good, but got little to help him out in his problem match-ups against the more agile characters. He feels AMAZING to move with though... Get at me @ Mr.Pickle

Edit: I very much doubt the matchup got much better. My strongest option to keep you out was nerfed quite hard (which I agree with) Movement, and nair should help out a bit though.

 

[Juushichi]

hi, this link is pretty much a buff.

you get a worse (melee, brawl) boomerang and can move faster to place your moves better. practice better movement and you should be fine. this helps better in a fair amount of cases, just experiment imo

 

[TheBigChew]

GOD I LOVE HIM :D. FINALLY A GOOD BAIR F-TILT, U-TILT AND HE RELIES MORE ON BOMBS, THANK YOU!

 

[DarkDeity15]

hi, this link is pretty much a buff.

you get a worse (melee, brawl) boomerang and can move faster to place your moves better. practice better movement and you should be fine. this helps better in a fair amount of cases, just experiment imo

I currently don't have my Wii U (along with my copy of PM), so I'll just ask this; How noticeable is the buff to his run speed?

And guys, please give Link's jab 1 more IASAs so that we can approach safely while grounded. This is something Link needs quite badly. Lastly, these slight changes to Link's throws doesn't make his grab any less terrible. At least give it a bit more range vs. airborne opponents. The amount startup and cool-down the move has already would make up for it easily imo.

 

[Heero Yuy]

It took some time getting used to him but I think I'll be optimistic about this Link. I play a very fast and movement-heavy Link and this may be exactly what I needed. I'll actually play him some before making up theory.

 

[Juushichi]

I currently don't have my Wii U (along with my copy of PM), so I'll just ask this; How noticeable is the buff to his run speed?

And guys, please give Link's jab 1 more IASAs so that we can approach safely while grounded. This is something Link needs quite badly. Lastly, these slight changes to Link's throws doesn't make his grab any less terrible. At least give it a bit more range vs. airborne opponents. The amount startup and cool-down the move has already would make up for it easily imo.

his ground friction is like Puffs
his ground movement went from being ganon speed to IC/Mewtwo speed

 

[Mi4Slayer]

He definitely feels better. The U-tilt is good again. I noticed the D-throw goes less higher than before. I think the is a good possibility to follow to Dair-Bair-Nair now. But it just a speculation it this point. most of is ground moves are faster than before. Is Bair feels better and is Nair too imo.

Although I wish the change two thing a little about the Boomrang. It startup speed and just a tad his flying speed. Cause I understand why they nerfed it that much, even if am an eternal Link main. But I think these changes could help him without having an OP Rang

Overall it good improvement from 3.5 Link. Especially for the Utilt and the Ftilt. I get why they did it but those were Nerfed way too much it was too much. Never nerf them that way again PM dev... plz ... how many time I cringed in 3.5 in those situations. Now I think you did a good job with it.

 

[EmptySky00]

@ Shadic
I would 100% rather play 3.5 Link.

I question why the PMDT thinks it's good design to change Usmash and other like moves so that the opponent can fall out of them. Now the move is absolutely worthless. The counterplay in getting hit should be influencing the launch trajectory so that you avoid further attacks, not wiggling out of the attack completely so your opponent effectively gets punished for hitting you. If you thought the move did too much, then change how the move actually functions, don't make it not work. My opponents are literally just falling out of the attack now and that's absolutely unacceptable.

Also, I'm glad you nerfed his throws in SUCH a specific manner so that he loses his kill follow-ups. Moving the release point back so he can't get Dthrow-Up B on DI back? Fantastic. Glad you put that in the change list. Oh wait, you just vaguely tucked it away somewhere so we have to dig for it and even then it's nondescript as hell. God forbid we have good options out of a frame 11 tether grab with 70+ frames of endlag. High risk butchered reward. Were his throw conversions REALLY that devastating to the game's integrity that you had to screw them up in such a specific manner? Seriously? This is what people mean when they say you don't let strategies develop and you **** with developing metagames. You changed it from 3.02 to not be as automatic. Great. We adapt what you gave us to something that was decent and you go and bury that too, effectively punishing us for innovating new tools so we have to do it all over again. If it was actually problematic I could understand, but it wasn't. And you did this for everyone. You literally throw everything off with a bunch of idiotic tweaks that serve no true balancing purposes and only serve as a nuisance. Marth's recovery being shortened by a foot? What the hell did that even accomplish other than making Marth players suicide for 2 weeks until they readjust? Nothing.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Agreed. I'm starting to see a pattern here. First it was the massive, unnecessary nerfs in 3.5, and now this. It's almost as if they don't want Link to go beyond being borderline mediocre. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[TheBigChew]

Well my first tournament with 3.6 was horrendous. People can get out of the U-smash WTF WERE YOU THINKING. THIS MELEE LINK 2.0. terrible boomerang, relies on bombs ALL THE TIME and even worse his throws are garbage. Thank you PMDT you really know what link mains want, better buff toon link right!?!? Ugh ok so I know this is the beta, but just give us 3.5 link back please, I don't want you guys messing up our mains anymore, take back what I said about all the great things link has.

 

[TheBigChew]

Well my first tournament with 3.6 was horrendous. People can get out of the U-smash WTF WERE YOU THINKING. THIS MELEE LINK 2.0. terrible boomerang, relies on bombs ALL THE TIME and even worse his throws are garbage. Thank you PMDT you really know what link mains want, better buff toon link right!?!? Ugh ok so I know this is the beta, but just give us 3.5 link back please, I don't want you guys messing up our mains anymore, take back what I said about all the great things link has.

Which also completely ruins his dacus

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

In their defense, they did say 3.6 "beta". And yea tweaks to sdi multiplier turns moves from extremely good to highly punishable. Diddy up smash , zss up smash, link up smash, mario down air to name a few. Would have been nice if the grab followups were not destroyed since the endlag is so atrocious.

 

[DarkDeity15]

The PMDT has me pissed to be honest. They had this long to balance the damn game and Link is still mediocre/bad? Beta or not, they have no excuse.

So these are my questions to them:

1. Why were the changes to throws necessary?

2. Why is Link's Usmash the way it is?

3. Why was tether canceling removed?

4. Why is Link's grab still so abysmal?

5. Why, after all this time does Link still not have any safe ways to approach?

I'd like to hear what they have to say.

 

[TheBigChew]

The PMDT has me pissed to be honest. They had this long to balance the damn game and Link is still mediocre/bad? Beta or not, they have no excuse.

So these are my questions to them:

1. Why were the changes to throws necessary?

2. Why is Link's Usmash the way it is?

3. Why was tether canceling removed?

4. Why is Link's grab still so abysmal?

5. Why, after all this time does Link still not have any safe ways to approach?

I'd like to hear what they have to say.

If link was good, people would complain and *****.

 

[DarkDeity15]

If link was good, people would complain and *****.

Well **** them then. They should really learn what it means to adapt and stop whining.

 

[EmptySky00]

Link's grab punishment game is ACTUALLY terrible. They tweaked it just enough so that you no longer have kill conversions out of throw. On Falcon at 120 you can no longer spin due to the altered release points. Uthrow nets nothing either thanks to the KBG. I would throw the movement buffs into a pit in exchange for having 3.5 punish game. I never thought in my entire life I would want 3.5 Link back, but right as I start enjoying him and taking him further, they neuter everything I liked about the character. Link wasn't even good. Thank God we're not Pit though, am I right? Disgusting.


I don't plan on playing this game anymore unless something's done about it and this **** is changed back in post-beta. But they won't do that because forget about metagame development. I said unacceptable before. *Actually* unacceptable. I've been let down one too many times.

 

[TheBigChew]

Didn't think Link could get any worse, guess I was wrong. No wonder why we rarely see link players besides ourselves at tourneys. It's because he Is a punching bag that gets combed almost like a fast faller, and has no approach options. God our hylian hero is looking like a hylian zero..... Like Empty said, I don't think I will be playing PM anymore if this doesn't change. Link has no hope anymore. I'm going back to melee where I don't have to worry about link being nerfed and negatively changed. Also when 3.5 came out I had a blast relearning this character even though he was decent yes I said decent, but know I have no motivation anymore. Then again I could just pick up Toon link which is essentially a better link -_-

 

[Wolf_]

Holy **** you guys are tearing them a new hole jesus, I don't think they intentionally made him bad so I really don't think there's a need to be that aggressive

I like his improved movement options, I think it helps a lot, I'd rather link be more attack based than projectile based anyways

My biggest complaint is probably Upsmash, anyone could SDI out of it in 3.5, but now it's like the sword is coated in butter, everyone just slides off and punishes you

Outside of that though I think we should all try to get this good:

After seeing this epic video there's a few things I'd like done to Link to make the things in this video possible:

• Make bombs like melee---- yea it'll make the bomb jump worse but we only get it to work once if up-B isn't staled, which means you can't use upB even once before being offstage which is an unlikely scenario for me at least, but really I'd like a versatile combo tool that's used by reading your opponents movements instead of spamming boomerang
• Melee boomerang----- it's already like Melee as far as I can tell, why not give it's melee range back
• Melee grab range------ not sure if it's possible, but I don't think it's a bad idea to give it melee range considering the grab now has a lot of lag and no longer has so great of a reward for it
• Make the Nair somehow do what it does in this video, he uses the weak hit to combo into Dair 0_o

The one thing I don't like about the Bair now is I can't seem to FF the 1st hit of Bair, land beneath my opponent and Spin Attack anymore, it just doesn't send them into tumble and allow them to attack immediately, although tere may be other uses for this too

I'm not sure they'll even change anything about characters once the beta is over, I think they'll probably just do bug fixes

But guys really, I understand if you're frustrated, but do you really think acting in such a way is gonna get the PMDT to listen? I bet they're all thinking something along the lines of "wow what a bunch of whiny *******, screw this I don't even care about making this character that good" Just saying

 

[Heero Yuy]

I personally love the style of Melee Link, the only problem was that he sucked. 3.6 Link is much closer to that than ever (even the usmash is similar). I also like the new Bair because of how well it links into the 2nd hit. The 3.5 Bair that sent you into tumble seemed situational such as the one Wolf mentioned, and didn't gain me as many kill setups as I hoped.

These changes are fine for me and his throw game just feels harder...but still doable. Also to the people whom are complaining: just take the cursor off Link and put it over another character if you're really that disgusted with the changes. I've changed my mains three times over 3.5 without being overly vocal about it.

 

[Zingabilly]

3.6 BOYS.
The continued butchering of my character for no reason other than noobs complaining. A bunch of cosmetic changes that should have alwaysbeen there or never have changed in the first place (f tilt anyone) while throws and boomerang continue to get eviscerated. 3.02 to 3.5 boomerang was gutted and now 3.6 it's completely ****ing useless. What a great thing for a character designed for the mid range. Thanks for that. Why bother even attempting to throw one out when any character can rushyou down and combo you to 50% without breaking a sweat every time. And to throw it from a safe distance it's completely impotent and most of the time not even safe on shield. Great. Cuz I forgot about all of the incredible approach options link has that would justify that Nerf. Oh wait.

Up smash - really?........ I mean really? Oh yea, goodbye dacus too. God forbid some approach tech be useful for link.

Throws. You've gotta be kidding me. So now even if I do get amiracle grab off on spacies if I up throw or down throw at low percents bestt case scenario they get away for free otherwise they basically get a free punish. For me throwing them! I forgot how overwhelmingly in favor of link those matchups were that would justify that.

This is a joke
Tilts
-Forward Tilt
--BKB from 5, 5, 2, 2 to 15, 15, 10, 10.
--Damage reduced by 1 on all hits. 14, 15, 14, 13 to 13, 14, 13, 12.
--Angle reduced from 361 to 35.

-Up Tilt animation tweaked to properly hit opponents in front and behind.

Smashes
-Forward Smash
--Damage increased by 1 on all hits. 14, 15, 15, 15 to 15, 16, 16, 16.

-Up Smash
--SDI multiplier on first hitboxes all normalized to 1.0.

Aerials
-Neutral Aerial
--Sweetspot timing has +1 damage to all hits. 9, 11, 8 to 10, 12, 9.

-Back Aerial
--Replaced KBG with WDSK for static KB to link better into the second hit.
--Second hitbox comes out two frames faster (18 -> 16).
--Overall move IASA remains the same.

-Up Aerial
--Top hitbox raised slightly to better match sword.

-Down Aerial
--Beginning of animation slightly cleaned up sword positioning.
--Hitboxes adjusted very slightly to be better centered on the sword.

Throws
-Back Throw
--Hitbox frame 12 -> 12-13

-Up Throw
--BKB 24 -> 30
--Release frame 28 -> 29
--Endlag 16 -> 20

-Down Throw
--Hitbox size 3.51 -> 4.32
--Hitbox frame 22 -> 22-23
--Release frame 23 -> 28

Specials
-Neutral Special (Hero's Bow)
--No longer slightly moves Link

-Side Special (Boomerang)
--Release frame matched to Melee/Brawl. Releases frame 27 from 23.
--IASA increased from 38 to 43.

Other
-Smoothed out wobbling from sword hitboxes on Down Aerial and Up Aerial.
-Slightly tweaked walking, dashing, running, dash attack, neutral aerial, and back aerial animations.
-Ground friction reduced from 0.1 to 0.09
-Run speed increased from 1.35 to 1.4

Discussion go go.

 

[Zingabilly]

Link's grab punishment game is ACTUALLY terrible. They tweaked it just enough so that you no longer have kill conversions out of throw. On Falcon at 120 you can no longer spin due to the altered release points. Uthrow nets nothing either thanks to the KBG. I would throw the movement buffs into a pit in exchange for having 3.5 punish game. I never thought in my entire life I would want 3.5 Link back, but right as I start enjoying him and taking him further, they neuter everything I liked about the character. Link wasn't even good. Thank God we're not Pit though, am I right? Disgusting.


I don't plan on playing this game anymore unless something's done about it and this **** is changed back in post-beta. But they won't do that because forget about metagame development. I said unacceptable before. *Actually* unacceptable. I've been let down one too many times.

****ing A. Here we go again. You'd think from the way they posted the chage log that link got some great buffs. This is ridiculous.

 

[DarkDeity15]

****ing A. Here we go again. You'd think from the way they posted the chage log that link got some great buffs. This is ridiculous.

That's exactly what they want you to think lol.

 

[EmptySky00]

I didn't want to riot and be ungrateful, because I want to believe they want the best for Link and they wanted him to be better, but after seeing how his grab game was destroyed and having my opponents slip out of my Usmash over and over I was just set off. I was really under the impression that they were going to just tweak characters from 3.5 onwards to preserve metagame development like they said in their blog post pre-3.5, not snatch away anything that the players came up with out of the remains from the transition.

It's like, we get a character. We develop how we play that character but he's a little bit stupid. They change him and tone down the entire game. Ok cool. That kind of sucks but let's figure something else out. Then we do, but the character really isn't that great he's just another fair character in the game. Then THAT gets taken too. It feels like this was not a consideration when these changes were decided on. They took 1 step forward then 2 steps back.

Hell, Link will probably be fine this version, but I'm not continuing in the vicious cycle of having everything I've worked towards be completely taken away every 6 months for no reason. Anything we find with this version will just be taken away next version so I'm not even going to bother. None of us are under any obligation to accept it.


Edit: Just as a side note at the PMDT I guess. I really don't want this to be this way. I know you guys put a lot of work and thought into the game and thought all of the changes were for the best. I feel like every version you're trying to make your playerbase happy. It's like you're preparing a nice meal for someone and putting a bunch of effort into making it nice for them, then when you give it to them they just throw it in your face because you put onions in it and they hate onions. You want people to be happy then you just get explosions and backlash. And then this just seems like a cycle of Empty's PMS session every time a new version is released. But I legitimately feel let down about this. I started really enjoying Link near the end of 3.5 because of DACUS/boomerang conversions and his throw game. And then those are the exact things you take away. I'm just not doing this again.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I'm fairly certain that the upsmash thing is based on a global change to the sdi multiplier on moves, if you notice I believe pit's usmash and other moves like it are in the same boat as link, and I believe I remember a pmdev member saying that if your throws seem different, it's because of the new release points. So I really don't think they went out of their way to change these things, it's just these global changes effected link in a more obvious and pronounced manner.

You guys are perfectly in the right in having concerns and voicing them, but try to keep it calm and civil. I understand completely the troubles a link main has to endure, he's been bad for a while, but don't just look at the negative. They were small, but collectively he got a lot of buffs, and maybe some of them compensate him for some of his losses. So pretty much my point is don't give up hope on the weird little elf dude in tights, voice your concerns as calm as possible, and try to see what you can do with his new tools.

 

[Soft Serve]

you guys are crazy, link feels amazing this patch. Yeah upsmash is a normal multi hit move, just like most other characters with multi hit up-smashes. Just dont upsmash unless they are deeper in the hitbox. Dthrow definitely got buffed, the release frame is 5 frames later with the same end lag, so that means you can act out of it 5 frames faster than before. That means 5 frame easier tech chases which is huge, easier combos too. If people are getting out of your dthrow>upsmash combos now with proper DI try dashing towards them before you upsmash. Ftilt, up-tilt, nair slight buffs. Not to mention how much complaining about bair not linking properly there was, and now that it has weight dependent set knockback and the 2nd hit hits 2 frames sooner people shouldn't fall out of it,

Honestly being faster with a better wave-dash and more frame advantage off dthrow should be way worth boomerang coming out 5 frames later. I'd take a slower banana pull or worse popgun to get the 10 extra frames of endlag diddy's up-b got slapped on in 3.5 lessened.

 

[Thor]

Traction buff is godlike. Ledgedash is good now, not just a way to get off ledge.

Dthrow is still fine - if they tech anywhere but away they get hit with spin attack and if they tech away, zair them or boomerang and go from there [on some bad tech rolls, fair?[. Also I usually opt for uthrow dair on fastfallers anyway, not sure if the percent range shrunk, but Uthrow actually strikes me as buffed, because it seems to work better on fastfallers and floaties alike.

However, despite what Soft Serve said above, dthrow feels slower, as if I actually can't act any faster. Placebo? I also thought bair was fine, and I appreciate the ftilt buffs [I can use for edgeguarding now, whereas before it didn't do anything to Ganondorf except % and a reset.]

I'm not saying new Link is hugely buffed or even that he's not worse, but he still functions and a LOT of characters have it worse [Sheik's throw game is less stupid and Fox can't shine spike us until at least... 60%?].

Boomerang nerf was 100% fine to me, but I play Melee Link and even some Smash 4 Link so it just feels like normal now. Nair buff is HUGE though - it's always been Link's best or second best move [best aerial easily, 3.02 boomerang was really good though] and it now does the damage of a great nair instead of a good one.

I'll more carefully read some of these posts later.

 

[Beorn]

Actually most nairs similar to link do 13,14, or 15% and don't have to hit with the foot. Yoshi, Samus, Shiek,Luigi, rob, peach, ect. Mario, Link, Ness,fox, falco ect are in the minority, and Links nair is even further in the minority in that it requires you to hit with only the foot to get the 12% hitbubble.

:Edit, Why can't pm Link do a lot of the stuff in that video? If we could weak hit nair into dair at kill percents it would solve a lot of Links problems with converting to kill moves at high percents. Also is PM Links landing detection on nair different than melee? I went into frame advance and tried to do that Nair spam on a battlefield plat. It didn't work.

Links hitbubble on the first hit of bair is kinda garbage. There is like never a reason to use the first hit anymore. I would much rather it keep the speed up and still have melee knock back.

I still haven't had a chance to play this Link extensively post 3.6b, but I will be playing tomorrow with @ Mr.Pickle and Probably @Leafeon. Will post thought's afterwards. Though I have played quite a bit of the unfinished version of this Link pre 3.6, so these won't exactly be initial thoughts.

 

[Thor]

These bombs are so much better because they combo at better percents.
Current boomerang has a better launch angle than Melee boomerang - I wouldn't trade its current angle for more range at all. Less range also gets it back to Link faster, which is actually really important on small stages for better control and on large stages it lets Link respond faster to the flow of the game.
Current grab is less laggy than Melee grab - I'll take the less range for the less lag, since it really can matter.
You can do weak nair -> dair already, it's just not easy. That's just the Link in the video being godlike [I do bair -> spin attack occasionally in Melee and PM, and people are always like "WHOA COOL", and I'm pretty sure that to this Link main, weak nair -> bair is just standard, even though we're all like "0____o"].

Don't revert more stuff to Melee unless something was nerfed relative to Melee. And the range distance isn't even a nerf, since we have bombs and functional arrows for that space now.

Sure, Link's nair requires better spacing for its percent and does meh percent. It is also the only nair... no, the only MOVE in the ENTIRE GAME with IASA frames DURING the hiboxes. It's godlike for shield pressure tricks and helps him do the godlike nair -> nair combo, and it's that great IASA that helps the Melee Link in the video do nair -> dair.

Everyone in here seems really eager to gripe, but there's a functional ftilt, utilt/uair fixes, dthrow still often leads directly to spin attack and you can also tech chase zair them and follow the zair with dash attack or dair/uair, uthrow is better at low percents, and bair is great [always was, but it still is great]. And while you all can complain, we didn't get our recovery nerfed [Fox trying to fake going for ledge and landing onstage gets that 20 frame lag] or a fundamental part of our game changed [Sheik dhtrow/bthrow thing]. The dthrow change is very easy for us to adapt to.

So please, don't make us look like the idiot Mewtwo mains who wanted buffs going from 3.02 to 3.5 [as they were out there] - be glad we got a few tweaks that help us out, and see if we can't adapt to the curveballs that've been thrown - I've already started doing so and enjoy 3.6 beta Link more than 3.5 Link as a result already.

 

[EmptySky00]

you guys are crazy, link feels amazing this patch. Yeah upsmash is a normal multi hit move, just like most other characters with multi hit up-smashes. Just dont upsmash unless they are deeper in the hitbox. Dthrow definitely got buffed, the release frame is 5 frames later with the same end lag, so that means you can act out of it 5 frames faster than before. That means 5 frame easier tech chases which is huge, easier combos too. If people are getting out of your dthrow>upsmash combos now with proper DI try dashing towards them before you upsmash. Ftilt, up-tilt, nair slight buffs. Not to mention how much complaining about bair not linking properly there was, and now that it has weight dependent set knockback and the 2nd hit hits 2 frames sooner people shouldn't fall out of it,

Honestly being faster with a better wave-dash and more frame advantage off dthrow should be way worth boomerang coming out 5 frames later. I'd take a slower banana pull or worse popgun to get the 10 extra frames of endlag diddy's up-b got slapped on in 3.5 lessened.

Dthrow did not get buffed. The release point being pushed further back takes away dthrow spin at relevant percentage. Because this is 2002 where dthrow spin is broken. And his u throw was nerfed as well. The combo setups on fast fallers were ruined with added end lag and BKB. idk why they couldn't just leave it be. And they know full well how important release points are so just throwing in universal changes and expecting no ramifications is naive. No I believe strongly that it was intentional.

And I still don't think that falling out of multi hit moves is good design at all. It shouldn't be a thing with pit or link.

I honestly really dislike melee link and I wish they would stop emulating him. I liked boomerang, usmash, and his throw game. Why couldn't they just let us develop the tools we had?



Thor did you seriously just say fox can't shine spike until 60? Really now?

My point isn't that I think 3.6 link is bad but that they took away tools we had developed for no reason. The throws are really the biggest thing. I don't like rang nerfs but I was willing to live with it. Usmash change was obnoxious but I was only going to ***** every time someone fell out of it. When I finally felt what I lost in my throw game is when I got mad and decided I wasn't playing this version in protest.

 

[Thor]

Dthrow did not get buffed. The release point being pushed further back takes away dthrow spin at relevant percentage. Because this is 2002 where dthrow spin is broken. And his u throw was nerfed as well. The combo setups on fast fallers were ruined with added end lag and BKB. idk why they couldn't just leave it be. And they know full well how important release points are so just throwing in universal changes and expecting no ramifications is naive. No I believe strongly that it was intentional.

And I still don't think that falling out of multi hit moves is good design at all. It shouldn't be a thing with pit or link.

I honestly really dislike melee link and I wish they would stop emulating him. I liked boomerang, usmash, and his throw game. Why couldn't they just let us develop the tools we had?



Thor did you seriously just say fox can't shine spike until 60? Really now?

My point isn't that I think 3.6 link is bad but that they took away tools we had developed for no reason. The throws are really the biggest thing. I don't like rang nerfs but I was willing to live with it. Usmash change was obnoxious but I was only going to ***** every time someone fell out of it. When I finally felt what I lost in my throw game is when I got mad and decided I wasn't playing this version in protest.

I don't know exact percentages [hence the question mark], but a guy tried to shine spike my Falco out of my double jump at something like 30-ish% and I lived. As Falco. With no jump. Falco is lighter and falls faster than Link. Maybe Link can die to a shine spike at 50% or whatever, but that thing isn't going to be killing us at really low percents and that's huge, given that we can still be easily waveshined, which can thus lead into a KO. Sure, if he shines us super far offstage at zero we die, but if Fox has ledge so you spin attack to recover and he shines you, you'll still be close enough to attempt to recover again.

If you do the thing where you shine Falcon over and over, he seems able to at least reach ledge until about 80ish percent if you try to shine him from just offstage. Link and Falcon are same weight, and Falcon falls faster while Link up+b has better hitboxes.

 

[EmptySky00]

At worst it just adds a second shine spike to the equation. It's not like it's hard to do. And it can be invincible too because that's what we needed. And it's not like fox doesn't have damage output so that still means nothing.

But they toned down foxs options that were too good without removing any. See where I'm going with this? Link throws were in no way too good.

 

[Thor]

At worst it just adds a second shine spike to the equation. It's not like it's hard to do. And it can be invincible too because that's what we needed. And it's not like fox doesn't have damage output so that still means nothing.

But they toned down foxs options that were too good without removing any. See where I'm going with this? Link throws were in no way too good.

They may not have been "too good" to you but they generated a LOT of salt... can you name a character besides ICs [when both are there only] who has literally free followups regardless of DI?

Link's dthrow spin attack in 3.5 was so effective your opponent may as well put down the controller - if you had good timing and knew your percentage ranges, they could do literally nothing. Some, like Ness, could escape this anyway [you can't dthrow spin attack Ness after 60% in 3.5], but even then, you had dair or uair. Samus, Toon Link, and Lucas didn't have throws that effective [besides Lucas's KO throw, which killed later than dthrow spin attack], because Toon Link had a DI mixup and that's about it. Yoshi maybe does [I'm not sure if you can actually DI out of his throw combos] but his moves that he can follow up into strike me as weaker than spin attack.

Now, while it still works on some cast members at the right percents, Link dthrow has become something of a 50-50 at other times, where it's tech away to avoid spin attack [but that allows zair or even fair depending on the tech roll], while any other options gets them hit with spin attack, AND they have to make sure they DI it correctly [which should happen, but doesn't always]. This is more in line with other tether grab followups in the game.

I'm not saying that this change is a good one, but it strikes me as more in line with the rest of the cast. If you also want Samus, Toon Link, Yoshi, Link, and Lucas to have throw into one of their strongest KO moves guaranteed [Link spin attak is strongest horizontal KO move I believe], then that's fine by me, but as it was, only Link had this benefit as far as I know.

Also, it adds a second shine spike if they can actually shine you again lower than where you first shined at low percents - if they can never shine you any lower, you'll often have at least 3 or 4 chances to actually get the ledge, and you only need ledge once. Again, if I shine Falcon offstage at zero at the ledge with grounded shine, aerial shines won't prevent him from reaching ledge until at least 80% or so [although you can use other aerials and also ledgehog, the point remains that shine is significantly less effective].

What it means [I'll restate it] is that waveshining into a shinespike at 0% isn't a death sentence - it can be, and it's obviously frustrating to deal with, but it's less awful than before.

 

[EmptySky00]

You could DI up and live to like 135 depending on stage. It was a frame 11 tether grab with over 70 frames of lag. I think he deserves to have follow-ups out of it. You cannot argue that the **** was too good. Toon Link DOES have kill follow-ups out of grab that you can't DI. Up throw wants to have a chat with you. And you know what? His are perfectly fine because his grab is a massive commitment. Regardless, other characters having or not having kill setups out of throws is not relevant to whether or not Link's were too good.

A lot of things in this game generate salt. Those don't get touched. That's not a good balancing philosophy. You don't destroy an aspect of a character's metagame that the players developed just because some people don't like it. Stop getting grabbed by Link.

That sounds absolutely ****ing terrible. There is no 50/50, you DI back and avoid the spin then you're just in a standard tech scenario. You know what other character can throw and create a tech scenario? ALL OF THEM. If you don't have to respect his throws then he loses a major part of his punishment game and his grab is so committal that it's practically worthless at some percent ranges now. From the couple of times I tested it, You can't even kill Falcon or Fox with Dthrow spin anymore at like 110 or 120ish. And they changed Uthrow so you can't Uthrow - Fair on Falcon at the percents you could before. So that's ****ing fantastic.

I would have been absolutely happy with 3.5 Link just having hitbox fixes and Bair fixes.

 

[GarmWyrda]

Well, I don't know if we have no follow up now, but I agree with empty on the fact that our grab is a really big commitment, and it's not really good. I mean yes it grabs from far but we have a huge lag and it's really slow. IMO we need really strong game off of our throws. We still do but only a minor part of the roster and in certain range of %.

And on 3.5 many chars had free follow ups after throw. At least CFalcon (I think it's changed on 3.6) and Mario (he just wrecks Link if he gets a grab)

Overall I'm happy with Link right now, but it's true that our throw game feels worse than before and I'm not sure if we deserved it...

One more thing, our upSmash... is.. quite slippery now. It makes me sad. like really sad. I LOVED DACUS but now.. meh... I'm risking more than my opponent... I think that the MU vs CFalcon is going to be really hard...

Anyway, we got new tools to play with, our WD is slightly longer, we can more easily ledge cancel etc, and that's cool ! Don't take my comment as a "**** this game, I'm not happy with the changes, they're bad, I should balance the gmae myself". Just my thoughts right now, and 3.6 was released last week, so it probably doesn't mean much.

 

[EmptySky00]

Link is probably better now like I said. I'm just not happy with those 2 changes. Boomerang as well, but I can get over that.

 

[EmptySky00]

Dthrow definitely got buffed, the release frame is 5 frames later with the same end lag, so that means you can act out of it 5 frames faster than before. That means 5 frame easier tech chases which is huge, easier combos too.

Well I knew you were wrong in the first place but I checked it because I'm an asshole and you irritated me with this.

In 3.5 when you Dthrew Charizard at 0, you had 4 frames of advantage.
In 3.6 when you Dthrow Charizard at 0, you have 4 frames of advantage.
In 3.5 if you did it at 50, you had 8 frames of advantage.

I'll let you take a guess as to what happens in 3.6.

The stun advantage on Dthrow is exactly the same, you just have to wait longer before you can act so it just changed the timing. I don't know what other function moving the release point forward would have had aside from them sticking their fingers in the batter yet again. Changing stuff for the sake of changing it. So ya, Dthrow's hitstun is unchanged. The release point is just significantly worse. So there you go.