Light Labs: Mega Man Advance Techniques Discovery Thread

[fromundaman]

Also... I think I just found something SUUUPER interesting. Something that could really make more people use Mega Man as a counterpick character. Needs some more testing... but it's a serious blow to the matchup with a certain commonly used character.

Oh god... It's Sonicfox all over again...



To those who don't know, Sonicfox is a very, very good Injustice/DOA/Under Night/Skullgirl/fighting games in general player who won/made top 8 at 3-4 events at EVO this year; basically the new Chris G. Anyway whenever this guy finds something in Injustice (IDK if he did this for other games) he would go on for weeks saying stuff like "Oh my god this is game changing!" and "wow this is even better than I thought!" without actually telling anyone what it was for a while because he was still testing it, making everyone sit there and wonder what the hell he was talking about.

 

[Locke 06]

Sorry, I just tested it. And it's the truth. Testing didn't take long... but the computer is really annoyingly stupid when I want it to do something. I was thinking about making a separate thread... but meh.

CUT TO THE CHASE

Anyway, Zero Suit Samus has problems killing. That much is known. Her main way of killing is aerials (but really only air-air), up-B (very punishable), and stun gun --> FSmash / FSmash. Unless I'm missing something (since I don't play ZSS a lot). Her FSmash has great range and is pretty fast.

HOWEVER, it has a major flaw against Mega Man. It has 2 hits... and the first does not send you into tumble. Which means you can RUSH CANCEL out of ZSS' forward smash 100% of the time. Doesn't matter if you're at 0% or 999%. Her FSmash will never kill you if you can rush cancel out of it successfully so that the second hit doesn't touch you.

ZSS has 0 kill moves on Mega Man on the ground from the ground. None. You can whiff a DSmash TERRIBLY, and the worst you'll get is a grab, dash attack, or whip. Nothing that will kill you.




Boom.

 

[Locke 06]

Okay, so... somewhat exaggerated. ZSS can still pull off a forward smash if spaced perfectly (where the first hit doesn't connect and the second hit does). But that's pretty difficult to do. Especially if you play up in her face. In any case, I feel like this could severely sway the matchup towards Mega Man.

 

[BBC7]

Sorry, I just tested it. And it's the truth. Testing didn't take long... but the computer is really annoyingly stupid when I want it to do something. I was thinking about making a separate thread... but meh.

CUT TO THE CHASE

Anyway, Zero Suit Samus has problems killing. That much is known. Her main way of killing is aerials (but really only air-air), up-B (very punishable), and stun gun --> FSmash / FSmash. Unless I'm missing something (since I don't play ZSS a lot). Her FSmash has great range and is pretty fast.

HOWEVER, it has a major flaw against Mega Man. It has 2 hits... and the first does not send you into tumble. Which means you can RUSH CANCEL out of ZSS' forward smash 100% of the time. Doesn't matter if you're at 0% or 999%. Her FSmash will never kill you if you can rush cancel out of it successfully so that the second hit doesn't touch you.

ZSS has 0 kill moves on Mega Man on the ground from the ground. None. You can whiff a DSmash TERRIBLY, and the worst you'll get is a grab, dash attack, or whip. Nothing that will kill you.




Boom.

That's pretty interesting. One thing I wanted to bring is up is Rush Cancel out of Ike's Jab Combo. I couldn't do so today online and was wondering if doing so is even possible. Rarely does online lag(any lag, just not severe lag, almost no lag when I was fighting Ike) ever affect my rush cancelling so I was surprised that Ike's Jab Combo hit me each time.

 

[Locke 06]

That's pretty interesting. One thing I wanted to bring is up is Rush Cancel out of Ike's Jab Combo. I couldn't do so today online and was wondering if doing so is even possible. Rarely does online lag(any lag, just not severe lag, almost no lag when I was fighting Ike) ever affect my rush cancelling so I was surprised that Ike's Jab Combo hit me each time.

The computer is really scared of me... / won't jab me. I'm in training mode trying to figure it out, but I can't get the computer to jab me. Ike just rolls away like I pose a significant threat.... when I'm standing right next to him doing nothing.

I got out of the first jab... but this is something you could try and test in training mode. Maybe you'll get better luck with the computer (I set him to level 9... maybe I need to make him dumber?). The way to test is to do it at different %'s, which you can set in training mode.

I wish you the best of luck... this AI is just... ugh.

 

[BBC7]

The computer is really scared of me... / won't jab me. I'm in training mode trying to figure it out, but I can't get the computer to jab me. Ike just rolls away like I pose a significant threat.... when I'm standing right next to him doing nothing.

I got out of the first jab... but this is something you could try and test in training mode. Maybe you'll get better luck with the computer (I set him to level 9... maybe I need to make him dumber?). The way to test is to do it at different %'s, which you can set in training mode.

I wish you the best of luck... this AI is just... ugh.

I guess it's the second jab you can't get out of, although that's just an assumption until I test it myself.

 

[fromundaman]

That is an awesome find.

What about ZSS's SideB though? Can't that kill?

 

[Locke 06]

That is an awesome find.

What about ZSS's SideB though? Can't that kill?

Kind of... not really. They've nerfed the kill power on that pretty hard and now I think it's more of a spacing tool than anything else.

From the ZSS forums:

• Side-b blows. More recovery, 8% damage down from 19% (what the actual ****). Can't kill, ever. Use a custom version.

 

[BBC7]

I believe that U-Smash can actually beat Edge Attacks in some cases. I was playing against this player who tried to whiff punish my U-Smash with an Edge Attack, and he ended up eating the final hit of the U-Smash while I remained perfectly safe. It needs further testing, but it's an interesting idea and I have performed it before as I already stated.

 

[fromundaman]

So fun thing that happened to me several times today:

When an opponent has a crash bomb on them, bum rushing them is a great idea if you time it right.
Turns out if we eat only the last hit of the crash bomb, we take 3% damage BUT return to neutral with no hitstun or knockback.
What this means is that with proper timing, throwing a dash attack at a shielding opponent who has a crash bomb on them is the best thing you can do. On hit you get a combo and on block you get a grab.


Also crash bomb is godlike against characters with reflectors. If the bomb gets reflected back to you, a dash attack will transfer it to them and with proper timing you can perfect shield it at the end if they blocked or convert if they got hit.

 

[errcs]

HOWEVER, it has a major flaw against Mega Man. It has 2 hits... and the first does not send you into tumble. Which means you can RUSH CANCEL out of ZSS' forward smash 100% of the time. Doesn't matter if you're at 0% or 999%. Her FSmash will never kill you if you can rush cancel out of it successfully so that the second hit doesn't touch you.

I'm not highly experienced, how do I perform a rush cancel? Is that when someone Up-B's out of a combo?

 

[fromundaman]

Yes, that is just using UpB to escape multi-hit moves.

 

[Zori]

We need to make a list of things megaman can rush cancel out of, the most interesting ones for me is robins el fire ( i think thats what its called) and bowser jr's up smash (i am not making this up)



Edit: after 3 mins of consideration, this actually really needs to happen. Ill make the the thread tomorrow but I need one other person to help me test moves and create the thread :]

 

[Deleted member]

I don't know of this has been mentioned already but...
I have noticed that Mega's forward B will stick to an opponent during their invincibility phase just after respawn.
I think this is nice because it gives you an option during their invincibility other than ran away and gives them something small to worry about.
Thoughts?

 

[Zori]

I haven't really seen this implemented but you can fast falls while shooting pellets and it almost doubles the speed of your pressure, the short hop version is kinda hard to do back to back but very rewarding I might not use this until I have a gc controller in my hand

 

[Z1GMA]

I don't know of this has been mentioned already but...
I have noticed that Mega's forward B will stick to an opponent during their invincibility phase just after respawn.
I think this is nice because it gives you an option during their invincibility other than ran away and gives them something small to worry about.
Thoughts?

I didn't know that. That is actually really great.

 

[GHNeko]

Is it already known that lemons completely nullify ZSS's stun blaster game?

MB and CB do as well, but no where near as good as lemons.

 

[Locke 06]

Is it already known that lemons completely nullify ZSS's stun blaster game?

MB and CB do as well, but no where near as good as lemons.

Lemons are the answer. All hail the lemon.

 

[NobleClamtasm]

Speaking of lemons, I found a cool lemon combo. Sorry if this has been brought up before

Spoiler

Here's the html version: http://gfycat.com/HeartfeltIdleGroundbeetle

It only deals 14%, but what's cool about this is that it's fast and knocks the opponent off the stage, so it can set up for some edgeguards. It's also a cross-up, so it's relatively safe on shield

 

[Locke 06]

I haven't really seen this implemented but you can fast falls while shooting pellets and it almost doubles the speed of your pressure, the short hop version is kinda hard to do back to back but very rewarding I might not use this until I have a gc controller in my hand

I was trying some SHFF pellets in training mode... Mostly because I am awful at short hopping... But I think I found that Mega Man cannot fast fall if he shoots a pellet on the ground.

So, if you start shooting on the ground and then jump, you'll only be able to fast fall once you are done shooting. Likewise, if you shoot in the air, land & shoot, and then jump & shoot, you can't fast fall until the lag from the last shot is over. You can fast fall off of shooting in the air before you hit the ground.

Just another mega man intricacy.

 

[Z1GMA]

Speaking of lemons, I found a cool lemon combo. Sorry if this has been brought up before

Here's the html version: http://gfycat.com/HeartfeltIdleGroundbeetle

It only deals 14%, but what's cool about this is that it's fast and knocks the opponent off the stage, so it can set up for some edgeguards. It's also a cross-up, so it's relatively safe on shield

Wall Carry, much? Seems like Namco couldn't stop themsleves from adding a bit of Tekken, lol.

Nair too good.

 

[fromundaman]

Speaking of lemons, I found a cool lemon combo. Sorry if this has been brought up before

Spoiler

Here's the html version: http://gfycat.com/HeartfeltIdleGroundbeetle

It only deals 14%, but what's cool about this is that it's fast and knocks the opponent off the stage, so it can set up for some edgeguards. It's also a cross-up, so it's relatively safe on shield

I've been messing with this tonight and using the Nair on the last hit to push them back is very very good. It's a hit confirmable way to re-establish spacing.


On a different note have you guys seen this?
http://smashboards.com/threads/roll-cancel-grabs.371874/

I started messing with these as well and they are SOOOOO good. This is the safest way I think to go from lemons into a grab and it has made my Dthrow tech chases MUCH more effective.

That combined with instant pivot Ftilts has been helping a lot.

 

[Gold_Jacobson]

Speaking of lemons, I found a cool lemon combo. Sorry if this has been brought up before

Spoiler

Here's the html version: http://gfycat.com/HeartfeltIdleGroundbeetle

It only deals 14%, but what's cool about this is that it's fast and knocks the opponent off the stage, so it can set up for some edgeguards. It's also a cross-up, so it's relatively safe on shield

Spoiler

I really like this. At work so can't practice now.

To confirm is it:

Ftilt ftilt sh na
Repeat?

 

[NobleClamtasm]

I really like this. At work so can't practice now.

To confirm is it:

Ftilt ftilt sh na
Repeat?

Correct. The second cycle doesn't really connect at mid-high percents, but the first three hits are pretty much guaranteed unless your opponent is above 100%

 

[GHNeko]

Is it already known that Megaman can spike like Metaknight can, but with his Bair instead of Fair?

I just did it to a For Tryhards opponent. With both the first hit and second hit, but the second hit was faaaar more effective.

 

[Dpete]

http://smashboards.com/threads/air-...-the-auto-cancel-window.373035/#post-17771878

Nair after air dodge will cancel out all the landing lag. Useful.

 

[NobleClamtasm]

http://smashboards.com/threads/air-...-the-auto-cancel-window.373035/#post-17771878

Nair after air dodge will cancel out all the landing lag. Useful.

Oh god, with this combined with rush cancelling, Megaman can potentially be extremely difficult to kill.

 

[Zori]

someone help me test stuuuuuffff lets set up an aim or skype chat

 

[GHNeko]

LETS GO ZORIIIIII

add me on skype

ghneko (without the period)

 

[Doval]

Anyway, Zero Suit Samus has problems killing. That much is known. Her main way of killing is aerials (but really only air-air), up-B (very punishable), and stun gun --> FSmash / FSmash. Unless I'm missing something (since I don't play ZSS a lot). Her FSmash has great range and is pretty fast.

You forgot Down B (Flip Jump) which can kill with the diagonal kick and meteor off stage with the bounce. It's a great move for jumping over projectiles.

It has 2 hits... and the first does not send you into tumble. Which means you can RUSH CANCEL out of ZSS' forward smash 100% of the time.

What if they just take a step back so the first hit whiffs? They could also back air, and while Up B is punishable that doesn't matter when you're stunned.

On an unrelated note I think Down B really shines for getting into a better position. With Hard Knuckle being slow, high recovery, lacking any real follow-ups, being stopped by platforms and never killing on stage and Air Shooter being amazing, Mega Man really shines below opponents. In stages like Tomodachi Life, Jungle Japes or certain forms of Arena Ferox, getting into a good position can be risky. Robin's Thoron, Samus's Charge Shot and Link's Power Bow are also dangerous if they're on the upper platforms of Mute City and they're forcing you to approach, especially when you're coming from the bottom car. The appropriate Down B helps you get back on even footing while most other characters have to risk getting hit.

 

[Locke 06]

You forgot Down B (Flip Jump) which can kill with the diagonal kick and meteor off stage with the bounce. It's a great move for jumping over projectiles.What if they just take a step back so the first hit whiffs? They could also back air.

On an unrelated note I think Down B really shines for getting into a better position. With Hard Knuckle being slow, high recovery, lacking any real follow-ups, being stopped by platforms and never killing on stage and Air Shooter being amazing, Mega Man really shines below opponents. In stages like Tomodachi Life, Jungle Japes or certain forms of Arena Ferox, getting into a good position can be risky. Robin's Thoron, Samus's Charge Shot and Link's Power Bow are also dangerous if they're on the upper platforms of Mute City and they're forcing you to approach, especially when you're coming from the bottom car. The appropriate Down B helps you get back on even footing while most other characters have to risk getting hit.

Sorry, forgot about the flip jump. I haven't seen it used as an offensive tool often enough. Does zss have enough time to flip jump kick after a stun? Also, I feel like her air-ground options aren't that good and spark shock /Tornado shooter really discourages aerial cross ups. If you focus on shutting down her aerial game knowing that her ground game can't hurt you that much, you have a strategic advantage.

As for stepping back to FSmash, I think that's very counter intuitive and difficult to pull off. The risk-reward of whiffing due to too much spacing or allowing Mega Man to respond would discourage ZSS from perfecting it. Also, it's character specific, so unless Mega Man becomes a common hard counter to ZSS, I doubt we'll see anyone put that much work into it.

 

[Locke 06]

LETS GO ZORIIIIII

add me on skype

ghneko (without the period)

Looking forward to seeing what you find out. The Diddy forum might be interested in this too, as they have a popgun cancel that is somewhat similar.

Something that also might be useful is ducking. Ducking under projectiles (Pit& Dark Pit arrows) or even melee attacks can give us another defensive option. But that's a lot of work to basically look for hit boxes on every single character.

 

[Doval]

Sorry, forgot about the flip jump. I haven't seen it used as an offensive tool often enough. Does zss have enough time to flip jump kick after a stun? Also, I feel like her air-ground options aren't that good and spark shock /Tornado shooter really discourages aerial cross ups. As for stepping back to FSmash, I think that's very counter intuitive and difficult to pull off. The risk-reward of whiffing due to too much spacing or allowing Mega Man to respond would discourage ZSS from perfecting it. Also, it's character specific, so unless Mega Man becomes a common hard counter to ZSS, I doubt we'll see anyone put that much work into it.

I doubt there's time for a flip jump, but a b-air is possible and it was the only sane follow-up in Brawl so any Brawl ZSS player will know to do that. They can also Up-B. She has an alternate Up B that's slower but hits even harder, and a D-smash is the perfect time to use it. D-smash's hit box is also pretty wide, so they wouldn't have to move back much to make the first hit of F-smash whiff. If someone loses to a Mega Man player that keeps Rush Canceling, it won't take them very long to find a work around.

Never assume a competitive player won't bother with something just because it's character-specific! There were lots of character-specific things in Melee and Brawl, from who falls down from Fox's Reflector to who's susceptible to a certain character's chain grab.

 

[Locke 06]

I doubt there's time for a flip jump, but a b-air is possible and it was the only sane follow-up in Brawl so any Brawl ZSS player will know to do that. They can also Up-B. She has an alternate Up B that's slower but hits even harder, and a D-smash is the perfect time to use it. D-smash's hit box is also pretty wide, so they wouldn't have to move back much to make the first hit of F-smash whiff. If someone loses to a Mega Man player that keeps Rush Canceling, it won't take them very long to find a work around.

Never assume a competitive player won't bother with something just because it's character-specific! There were lots of character-specific things in Melee and Brawl, from who falls down from Fox's Reflector to who's susceptible to a certain character's chain grab.

Fair on the competitive player aspect. It is their prerogative to perfect their play. I know people work on character-specific things (I'm no stranger to chain grabs as they were EVERYWHERE in Brawl), but I just think spacing a FSmash against Mega Man is a low priority (especially since they can do other things to work around it). The first hit of the FSmash has decent range making that difficult and they could be doing other things to improve their game that might be a better use of their time. If they do succeed in spacing it, well... all you can do is tip your cap in that situation. (although now I'm thinking about TL vs Jigglypuff... couldn't she rest between his FSmash hits? Iunno)

I didn't really watch/follow the competitive scene in Brawl (/ saw any ZSS players). I didn't know they SHBair against players who are on the ground / as a follow up of their blaster. I've always thought of ZSS' aerial game to be more air-air like Shiek. Pop em up with a dash attack/tilt/grab and then barrage with quick aerials.

 

[LancerStaff]

Looking forward to seeing what you find out. The Diddy forum might be interested in this too, as they have a popgun cancel that is somewhat similar.

Something that also might be useful is ducking. Ducking under projectiles (Pit& Dark Pit arrows) or even melee attacks can give us another defensive option. But that's a lot of work to basically look for hit boxes on every single character.

Resident lurker here. Just came in to say it's a bad idea to try and duck/slide past the angel's arrows if they're good players. Pit's especially, since they can hug the floor easily.

 

[Zori]

Man you guys are really going to like what we are about to bring to the table , we have some mu changing tech and I don't usually exaggerate. Started working from the top of the roster and winding down, currently finished zelda. We will get the info out as soon as possible :]


In the meanwhile a banner would be nice also I'm thinking of a cool name we can call the thread

 

[Locke 06]

Resident lurker here. Just came in to say it's a bad idea to try and duck/slide past the angel's arrows if they're good players. Pit's especially, since they can hug the floor easily.

How quickly can you bend them close to the ground, if you don't mind me asking. I haven't come across good Pit's and I've been ducking on reaction at around mid-range and punishing with a sourspot slide.

 

[NobleClamtasm]

How quickly can you bend them close to the ground, if you don't mind me asking. I haven't come across good Pit's and I've been ducking on reaction at around mid-range and punishing with a sourspot slide.

As a Pit player, I can confirm that Pit's arrows can easily curve into an opponent who's ducking. I keep it a habit to curve the arrows down just before they hit the enemy in case they duck. Even characters with low ducks like Kirby and Jigglypuff are vulnerable to this. Megaman, however, may be different, since his slide has a hitbox so it might be able to negate the arrow.

 

[RADSheikah]

So I don't know how I did this but I was playing online and I had a rush coil out and I used hard Knuckle then imediatly canceled the lag with a Slash Claw. I think something that would improve this would be to knuckle your opponent into rush bringing theme up for the claw. I don't know how. I didn't get video though. I am going to try and get video to prove it.

For know I'll call this Knuckle Canceling for now. Maybe one of you guys could get evidence to help prove this.

 

[LancerStaff]

How quickly can you bend them close to the ground, if you don't mind me asking. I haven't come across good Pit's and I've been ducking on reaction at around mid-range and punishing with a sourspot slide.

Instantly. You'd swear it's a custom the way I do it, lol. DP can do it too, albit differently because his arrows don't turn that sharply.

As a Pit player, I can confirm that Pit's arrows can easily curve into an opponent who's ducking. I keep it a habit to curve the arrows down just before they hit the enemy in case they duck. Even characters with low ducks like Kirby and Jigglypuff are vulnerable to this. Megaman, however, may be different, since his slide has a hitbox so it might be able to negate the arrow.

I've found a very consistent way of doing it. Rather then timing it, hold down-forward when firing and then press forward to straighten it out before it hits the floor. Might have to be more precise with G&W, but it works quite effectively on anybody else.