Let's talk.

[Oskurito]

I rarely use the fd-tilt, I prefer D-smash>edgehog at mid-high percentages.

 

[Stormblast]

I think that every nair in the game out prioritizes the illusion.

Not just every nair, every move in this game goes through the illusion. If you look at its hitbox you´ll notice that its hitbox is behind fox, and he is completely vurnearble while in the illusion and the same goes for falco. The hitbox is actually about one fox length behind him. Ever happened to you that when you try to fsmash through the illusion with marth and it clings? that is because fox had already passed you and you just hit the illusions hitbox. Since its hitbox is completely disjointed, i think it matches every move or even overprioritzes some.

 

[Brookman]

I used to know that. LOL

 

[kerploplesteesh]

ankoku and scotu: congrats on director status.

now down to business... i find that against a spacie the best thing you can do in most situations (excluding when they look like theyre getting a sweet spot below you) is to wait and see where the spacie is going and either jab or neutral when theyre not going to hit the ledge and dsmash when they are going to hit the ledge.. This is effective because with enough reaction time one is able to effectively edgeguard and protect more than one front. Ledgehop bair and nair can also be used with the same kind of effectiveness.

 

[RaynEX]

I've started implementing nairs into my edge-guarding vs. spacies. It works wonderfully, THANK YOU ALL.

 

[SCOTU]

So, does the nair edgeguard work against marth well too? the falco main in my crew uses it w/ falco, is it worth using?

 

[RaynEX]

from what i gather...ya.

 

[Brookman]

I've been fuxing with nair edge guard on marth with fox, but most of the time I just light shield edge hog. I'll fux with it some more later on today and tell what I've got.

I think the issue is that you can't as easily get back to the edge as sheik can after you get hit out of your nair, and except at higher percents, it probably allows marth to recover.

 

[$hYne]

idk but i don´t think nair edgeguard works well against Marth .
Marth has to recover from below the stage to sweetspot the ledge and if ur tryin to hit him
with the nair down there youre supposed to die due to fox ff abillities .

If youre talkin bout nairing him if he up Bs on the stage then it probably is ok but there are
way more better options if he didn´t sweetspot it .

And seriously : every good Marth player will sweetspot the up B .


One other thing i liked to mention is jab to shine edgeguard against fastfallers .
Ravenlord a **** got European Fox player does this pretty often .
If you like you can have a look at his videos against aldwyn , i think he uses it several times.

(please don´t mind my bad english >.<)

 

[Brookman]

idk but i don´t think nair edgeguard works well against Marth .
Marth has to recover from below the stage to sweetspot the ledge and if ur tryin to hit him
with the nair down there youre supposed to die due to fox ff abillities .

If youre talkin bout nairing him if he up Bs on the stage then it probably is ok but there are
way more better options if he didn´t sweetspot it .

And seriously : every good Marth player will sweetspot the up B .


One other thing i liked to mention is jab to shine edgeguard against fastfallers .
Ravenlord a **** got European Fox player does this pretty often .
If you like you can have a look at his videos against aldwyn , i think he uses it several times.

(please don´t mind my bad english >.<)

You just misunderstand. You edge hop (without going onto the stage) a nair as marth is up b'ing. This results in you getting knocked out by the weak part of his up b and marth being knocked away from the stage. It's like sheiks, but probably nowhere near as good.

and seriously, if every good marth just sweet spotted, then light shield edge hogging would be broken.

You don't seem to have much experience.

I'll try out jab to shine today, too.

 

[$hYne]

You just misunderstand. You edge hop (without going onto the stage) a nair as marth is up b'ing. This results in you getting knocked out by the weak part of his up b and marth being knocked away from the stage. It's like sheiks, but probably nowhere near as good.

and seriously, if every good marth just sweet spotted, then light shield edge hogging would be broken.

You don't seem to have much experience.

I'll try out jab to shine today, too.

Sry didn´t found that in the thread .
Ok this is probably working, i never tried that .

( I thought of ff of stage rejump nair or sh nair on the stage and this
sounded a bit stupid to me hope you don´t mind )

Sheiks edgehopped nair is better because of the priority and stayout time .

Another thing i watched is edgeguarding with the ledge get up attack,
i´ll try that today or tomorrow.

And ur right i don´t have much fox expreience, i´m jigglypuff main

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

edge hopped Nairs are no way as good as Sheik's. Sheik's Nairs last longer, have got better priority and higher range. Fox will just get hit too everytime he does a weak neutral in order to intercept Marth's up B recovery. In order to edgeguard Marth the best thing to do is edgehogging and waiting for Marth to Up B (with a bit of experience you'll know when Marth is going to try it). When Marth does it just Bair the hell out of him or (at high %) wait for him to land on stage and then Usmash him. If Marth happens not to sweetspot the edge then shinespike/Dsmash him away when he gets close to you because of falling (he won't be able to do anything in order to avoid it). Tap A + shinespike works nicely on the Up Bs that can be cancelled by Fox's tap A but remember that Tap A doesn't hit opponents who are trying to sweetspot. And anyway it doesn't outprioritize Marth's Up B.

 

[Brookman]

/garbage.

The question is not how good fox's nair edge guard on marth is compared to sheik's, He just asked if it workd similarly.

The way you explain edge guarding marth shows that you don't really know anything about playing against a good marth player.

You also display a lack of reading comprehension, since shyne said shine to tap a against fast fallers (IE. NOT MARTH). Also, it's obviously just a novelty, not something you should rely on.

 

[$hYne]

The way you explain edge guarding marth shows that you don't really know anything about playing against a good marth player.

I think he played against good Marth players and knows what he´s talking about
( hes like 2nd best player in Europe )

but yeah i said tap a to shine against ff

so let´s stop arguing and let´s talk again

 

[Brookman]

I think he played against good Marth players and knows what he´s talking about
( hes 2nd best player in Europe )

but yeah i said tap a to shine against ff

so let´s stop arguing and let´s talk again

I said that because he said you can know when marth players will use their up b. But if they are good players they will notice you know, and just change it up.

 

[$hYne]

I said that because he said you can know when marth players will use their up b. But if they are good players they will notice you know, and just change it up.

yeah and that´s a discussion on mindgames .
The one with the better mindgames will win at he end

 

[Brookman]

yeah and that´s a discussion on mindgames .
The one with the better mindgames will win at he end

It's not mind games, it's just having a brain.

 

[technomancer]

Something I've been messing around with against Falco, if you can get a shine near the edge, is just waveshine dsmashing. This hits alot of options (No tech, Tech in place with timing, and CC, which is the best because they will often DI down for an easy edgeguard at any percent and if you space it well they won't be able to shine out, but could clang). In general if you don't think they will tech just be as fast as possible, but waiting to see what they do is an option as well.

On bigger stages (dreamland) I'll run this trap vs. Falco: Fthrow to the edge, walk a little to space, attempt to powershield if he shoots a laser, and then shine out of shield if he approaches into a dsmash. If I mess up the timing the Dsmash won't come out which is fine, and I'll often get a CC or bad DI because their fingers are trying to fastfall something. Falco can do a couple of things here obviously, and if he goes high I'll shine out of shield, shine turn and try to land a b-air, but I don't think it puts me in a bad position. Obviously this isn't my 100% go to grab setup (uthrow->whatever) but it can net KOs at 30-40% so it's good.


Also something I learned from Taj and Forward: Upthrow at medium percents onto a platform vs. fastfallers should be followed immediately with a platform WD into another grab. It's 100% it just takes practice and good reflexes and allows you to set up a FD-style grab combo from on top. You can repeat if he DIs onto the top platform, and on Yoshi's and sometimes battlefield that often means a free upsmash KO.

 

[Brookman]

Any falco that lasers your shield into a downsmash is ********.


Also, when I throw anyone onto a platform I just jump up and drill to grab. I see people up air and stuff like that, but I think drilling is best.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

The question is not how good fox's nair edge guard on marth is compared to sheik's, He just asked if it workd similarly.

The way you explain edge guarding marth shows that you don't really know anything about playing against a good marth player.

You also display a lack of reading comprehension, since shyne said shine to tap a against fast fallers (IE. NOT MARTH). Also, it's obviously just a novelty, not something you should rely on.

thanks for flaming considering that YOU don't know what you're talking about. I'm not the 2nd in Europe like Shyne said, but I'm pretty good and there are Marth players here who know how to avoid getting killed during edgeguarding. Knowing when Marth will up B is a matter of experience and mind gaming, however I probably didn't explain it clearly and you misunderstood it for "Marth will ALWAYS up + B the same way". What I meant to say is that Marth's up + B can be predicted easily if the fox player is good enough, MORE EASILY than how Marth can predict Fox's Bairs. Just look at PC Chris VS Mew2King to get an idea of this. PC just keeps faking out and when Mew2King does a mistake he punishes him. Doing a mistake is quite easy for Marth so the best way to edgeguard him as Fox is stealing the edge and using Bair from there to kill Marth (or using light shield, as you already stated). And anyway NO, Fox's Nair doesn't work similarly to Sheik's during edgeguarding. Fox's fastfall makes it harder to control it and the attack's priority is lower, having Fox getting hit too while trying to edgeguard Marth. Also I'm not getting why you say shyne is unexperienced just for stating that Marth will sweet spot the edge, sweetspotting is the best option for Marth because Marth's land lag is high enough for Fox or any other character to take advantage of it and either throw Marth off stage again or even worse kill him (which against Fox will happen very often because of Fox's broken Usmash).

 

[Brookman]

I'm sorry for insulting you.

You don't need to predict when they're going to up and b to back air them, becuase you can just edge hog marth.____period.

What's important to know is if they have their double jump, and when they can/might us it. Whether it be a double jump to try and attack you off of the edge, or a double jump to delay and trick you into getting off the edge, or just a double jump onto the stage. Or, if you're light shield edge hogging, a simple DJ to the edge, or a DJ onto the stage while attacking you so you fall onto the edge and get put into a bad position ETC. Or anything else you might be able to think of.

What I like to do, if I know they have a DJ and I'm light shielding at the edge is to short hop out and fast fall to the edge. often times they are thinking they are safe, since you're sitting in your shield hoping that they'll up b and die, and they get so close that you can just edge hop a bair, though if you do this before they double jump and their percent isn't very high it will result in marth recovering from the bair and edge guard-guarding you.

(edge guard-guarding is a term me/zoso/cort made up when playing falcon dittos, cause it happened soo often XD)

The only time you can know for sure what a good marth player is going to do is when they don't have a double jump, and are at the maximum distance away from the edge so that they can sweet spot.

Don't talk about edge guarding as if you're just playing against a character, pretend you're actually playing someone who thinks and reacts to what you're doing just as much as you may think you do.

If you're going to talk about pc vs. m2k then actually provide a link to the specific match.

I remember watching pc's falco vs. m2k's marth
and pc started just letting m2k back onto the stage because m2k kept killing him when he tried to edge guard. Man, marth is so predictable.

I really need to get around to editing the first post.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=JHAIPp9m-b4

look at 1:47. PC keeps throwing M2K off edge again several times in a row using Bairs

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DrQBeWl1sjE

look at 00:39, Forward uses Bair from the edge in order to kill Tink eventhough Tink had used DJ + Aerial

Don't talk about edge guarding as if you're just playing against a character, pretend you're actually playing someone who thinks and reacts to what you're doing just as much as you may think you do.

I will, but on the other hand pretend you're talking with someone who knows about competitive gaming because I'm not a newbie. Everything you said is true.. with the difference that it doesn't apply to the specific Fox/Marth match up. Not just Fox, but EVERY character needs to know if they have their double jump, and when they can/might us it. Whether it be a double jump to try and attack you off of the edge, or a double jump to delay and trick you into getting off the edge, or just a double jump onto the stage. Or, if you're light shield edge hogging, a simple DJ to the edge, or a DJ onto the stage while attacking you so you fall onto the edge and get put into a bad position ETC. Or anything else you might be able to think of. In the specific case of Fox, using edgehogging, light shielding and Bairs in order to edge guard Marth (or at least attempt to) is good. What you really don't seem to get is that I'm not saying "if you use Bair then Marth is going to die with no chances of recovering", I'm just saying that they are Fox's best options. But you need to know when to use them, so I'm going to say that in order to edge guard Marth as Fox you need to use mind games. Which is pretty much purposeless because it's already obvious. Also, you keep bringing mew2king as an example but how many Marths besides Mew2King and Ken can actually stop a good Fox/Falco from edgeguarding him? Mew2King and Ken can avoid getting edgeguarded and be so unpredictable because they're the best players, not because of the character itself, that's why I say Marth is predictable.

 

[SCOTU]

Actually, i was talking about using edge invincibility to drop down a bit, then come back up with a nair, so that it doesn't trade, or would there be better stuff to do, like shine spike?

 

[terr13]

Shine spike ftw. I remember PC Chris Light shielding on the edge, then changing it to regular shield when M2k Up-B ed onto the stage, and then JC Shine spiking him..

 

[technomancer]

Any falco that lasers your shield into a downsmash is ********.


Also, when I throw anyone onto a platform I just jump up and drill to grab. I see people up air and stuff like that, but I think drilling is best.

Can't alot of characters shine/jab/CC out of that? Also if it's techable can't they use a wakeup attack to hit you?

 

[Excel_Zero]

Also, when I throw anyone onto a platform I just jump up and drill to grab. I see people up air and stuff like that, but I think drilling is best.

I just thought of the option of drilling when someone is above... just yesterday lol. Still I've got to try it on real matches.

Edit: To the post above me, if they didn't tech then drilling is much like jabbing someone on the floor. Pretty much like Thunder's.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

Actually, i was talking about using edge invincibility to drop down a bit, then come back up with a nair, so that it doesn't trade, or would there be better stuff to do, like shine spike?

Bair is better as I already said. If you can manage to shinespike Marth then even better.. but it requires an insane timing.

 

[Zankoku]

Since when did Shinespiking require insane timing? It requires better timing than something sexy like nair or bair, for sure, but it's nothing particularly difficult to do if the opportunity presents itself.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Ankoku, this is abit off topic but you change your avatar almost every day along with your title.

But with your new title...

Are you planning to take me out by chance?

 

[Zankoku]

I have a tendency toward messing with my artsies. The title is merely a quote from Cthuhlu mythology. In all honesty, I didn't even think of you when I was typing it up.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

How disappointing.

and something on topic as far as shinespiking marth. be wary of the fact his f-air can come out very fast and has very low lag.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

Since when did Shinespiking require insane timing? It requires better timing than something sexy like nair or bair, for sure, but it's nothing particularly difficult to do if the opportunity presents itself.

I still think that the cost/benefit balance makes Bair better than shining unless you can do it whenever you want to. If Marth has got very low % than it's worth it, otherwise Bair is easier to land and will send Marth again off the edge if he survives the hit.

 

[technomancer]

B-air isn't as good against a Marth with very good DI at low/medium percents, shinespiike always kills.

How about rising Drill Meteor into shinespike? Eh? Eh? Any takers?

 

[RaynEX]

lol..

shine-spike works finnne for me.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

I'm not sure about rising drill meteors into shinespike, definitely it would work against characters such as fastfallers but I'm pretty sure Marth will be able to recover soon from the Dair and Up B Fox before Fox can actually shinespike him (of course, you can still manage to hit Marth in the middle of his up B, but if you can why not just using a simple shinespike rather than drill + shinespike?). Anyway as I already said at low % shinespiking Marth can be good, just don't take the risk if you're sure that Bair would kill Marth.

 

[kenny10]

How about rising Drill Meteor into shinespike? Eh? Eh? Any takers?

That sounds like suicide if you mess up the timing.

Anyways, it's hard to shine spike a Marth because of his side-B and fair. A recovering Marth will likely hit you with one of those if your going for a shinespike. Not every Marth always goes for a sweetspot. As Brookman said, most Marth's will use their double jumps at the last minute to either trick you to getting off the edge, hit you, or getting back onto the stage. If you can predict when a Marth is not going to sweetspot, you can hit him during the lag of his up-B when he's on the stage. That's what I do. Otherwise if he's sweetspotting, just a regular edgehog will work. It's not necessary to do anything fancy.

 

[Excel_Zero]

Shinespiking a good Marth is not so easy. I would usually wait till they double jump (if they are semi-close to the edge), jump above them, wait till they to the side B, and then fastfall to a shine. If they don't do it then I'll try to regrab the edge.

BTW the light shield edgehog is a Marth killer... srsly.

 

[RaynEX]

I've never put it to use. I think its just because I don't really understand how it works, or how EXACTLY to do it.

Roll to the edge so your at the closest possible point then angle your shield behind you? Is that how it works? An explanation would be cool. =D

 

[Zankoku]

Yeah, pretty much. You angle the shield down and away from the stage, making sure to be using your LIGHT SHIELD (Z button or really shallow pressing of the R/L trigger). Once Marth's Up+B hits the lightshield, Fox's shield will push him off the stage and he'll fall down to the ledge (or get shield-tumbled, if you kept the shield on for too long). This pretty much gives a ledgehog as well as invincibility from the Up+B hit. I'm not sure if it works in all situations where Marth is forced to grab the ledge, but it might. If Marth makes it barely back to the stage, you can ledgehop an aerial to combo him back offstage or to death.

I'm not sure of how good it is compared to normal edgeguarding, so if I find a fault with it I'll be sure to mention later.

 

[RaynEX]

cool. thx, i'll try it out.