Let's talk matchups

[Codebox]

I'm curious because I have little experience fighting them (at least for now) how are Zelda MU's against and ? I haven't played in a while (well until came out) so I'm a bit hazy atm. But even when I played I didn't get much experience against those three how do they look for Zelda? This is namely offline, but if you want to include online for added detail fine.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Good. It's difficult for him to mine resources without burning some to do so. Even if he builds a wall you can jump over it and use Din's to quickly stall him and then resume the pressure. Minecart isn't as annoying offline so you can do things like LK him out of it. Steve doesn't seem to have too much of an ability to approach or do much outside of resource consuming burst options.

I think this one might be closer to even with the new buffs now. Previously, Zelda's ability to completely wall Byleth out with Displaced Phantom and blitz him with superior speed up close made it more in her favor, but I haven't tested the new buffs. Probably not a significant change, but it helps I'm sure.

Not entirely sure tbh. Kind of feels like to me that Zelda wins with better range and neutral. Displaced Phantom seems to beat everything except maybe Squal Hammer and desyncs seem to be more for advantage. It's easy to separate the two with Zelda's power and you can rack up significant damage and even take a stock. They can do some serious damage when they win neutral, but that seems to be rather difficult from my experience.

 

[Oz o:]

I don't understand why people overstimate the Byleth matchup. His stats alone should easily put him at -1 at our favour. It's not like a characters like Sephiroth. that while he is very light with slow attacks, he has even more range and speed (especially with One Wing), as well as Side B (pretty hard to time a reflect, if you ask me). Byleth's only real advantage next to Sephiroth is having two Frame 9 OoS options, which shouldn't really factor in, assuming you're not constantly poking at his shield up close. His recovery can also be intercepted reasonably well, with either Side B or things like Phantom + B reverse Neutral B off stage, or even just a Dair.

 

[stixie]

I don't understand why people overstimate the Byleth matchup. His stats alone should easily put him at -1 at our favour. It's not like a characters like Sephiroth. that while he is very light with slow attacks, he has even more range and speed (especially with One Wing), as well as Side B (pretty hard to time a reflect, if you ask me). Byleth's only real advantage next to Sephiroth is having two Frame 9 OoS options, which shouldn't really factor in, assuming you're not constantly poking at his shield up close. His recovery can also be intercepted reasonably well, with either Side B or things like Phantom + B reverse Neutral B off stage, or even just a Dair.

Exactly. Personally I don't have trouble with either OR . I think they're both easy. Good Seph players will play SUPER campy and not approach. In those matchups I play the exact same as them: sit back and relax. If they want to lame out that super dlc privilege on me I'll play the absolute trolliest campy gameplay Zelda can muster. Don't blame Zelda players for being campy and non commital and then start the game off by spamming fair from a half stage away. You'll receive the FULL Zelda camping if you do that. Especially online where that super obnoxious seph gameplay is actually a legit strategy.

I'm curious because I have little experience fighting them (at least for now) how are Zelda MU's against and ? I haven't played in a while (well until came out) so I'm a bit hazy atm. But even when I played I didn't get much experience against those three how do they look for Zelda? This is namely offline, but if you want to include online for added detail fine.

So is pretty easy. The only thing you have to watch out for as Zelda is the most obnoxious overpowered online move in the entire game (minecart).

Never had any problems with honestly they're hopelessly outspaced. I have NO idea how they're suppose to deal with phantom.

As far as ... I honestly don't see very many of them but they don't seem THAT problematic honestly.

 

[StoicPhantom]

As far as ... I honestly don't see very many of them but they don't seem THAT problematic honestly.

Even online where they are really good, I've not had much trouble. Mythra is a little annoying, but is very much an annoying little stinger and not really a huge threat. Zelda is used to being combo food and there is always the danger of Mythra getting LKed at 40 because she missed a Photon Blade. Pyra is pretty obnoxious with how much dumb cheese she has, but can be outranged and Zelda hits just as hard. Blazing End is an annoying zone breaker, but Farore's Wind is a pretty hard counter to spam. Both of their recoveries are complete ass and I don't see them living outside of low percents against an optimized Zelda offstage.

Don't blame Zelda players for being campy and non commital and then start the game off by spamming fair from a half stage away.

This bothers me so much about the general perception of Zelda. Pretty much all the time I'm "camping" someone it is entirely because they did it first. Then I never get rematched because I have superior camping options.

 

[Oz o:]

I like it when people who never saw me play ignorantly pull the "you're a zelda main" card, when they're the ones that play boring and defensive. I even went as far as to play a Captain Falcon and a Little Mac player that never approached, it's part of the reason wifi is unbearable and I'm a lot happier since I quit.

 

[stixie]

This bothers me so much about the general perception of Zelda. Pretty much all the time I'm "camping" someone it is entirely because they did it first. Then I never get rematched because I have superior camping options.

I like it when people who never saw me play ignorantly pull the "you're a zelda main" card, when they're the ones that play boring and defensive. I even went as far as to play a Captain Falcon and a Little Mac player that never approached, it's part of the reason wifi is unbearable and I'm a lot happier since I quit.

Yeah it's kinda funny. Every Zelda I've ever seen outside of random 1M GSP teleporting everywhere wifi Zeldas are super aggressive. I LOVE getting in people's faces with her. She has some quick buttons (jab, dtilt, kick, utilt, dash attack) and if she gets you with a combo starter or grab you're probably taking 25. People NEVER play with her so all they have to go on are their experiences at low GSP Zelda encounters and get cheesed by teleports (like they don't see it coming from 10 million miles away) and get salty.

I play both Zelda (my main) and Hard Mode Marth. Honestly I'm much more in your face and aggressive with Zelda than Marth.

Also, Oz o: yeah smash online is the biggest online gameplay dumpster fire I've ever seen in my 34 years of life. There's really no excuse for how terrible it is. And in that vein WHATEVER they did in the 11.0 - 11.0.1 patch made online WAY WAY WAY worse. They did something to the online buffer system that also made it SUPER CRAP. I'm constantly getting moves OOS that I didn't input. I dunno.........

 

[Oz o:]

There's bad Zeldas in every spectrum of GSP, and it's not just Zeldas. I don't know where this idea that Elite players somehow play better. There was a time I went below 1 million and brought myself up to 7 million in a day, and there was hardly a difference in skill level. Ironically, there was times I would find moderately decent players (even a solid ass Fox, somehow) and this was at like 4 million.

 

[stixie]

There's bad Zeldas in every spectrum of GSP, and it's not just Zeldas.

Yeah that's probably true. I don't encounter that many Zeldas in elite smash to be quite honest.

I don't know where this idea that Elite players somehow play better. There was a time I went below 1 million and brought myself up to 7 million in a day, and there was hardly a difference in skill level. Ironically, there was times I would find moderately decent players (even a solid ass Fox, somehow) and this was at like 4 million.

Now that is absolutely the truth. Elite smash players basically have one strategy... camp. That's it.

 

[Codebox]

Yeah it's kinda funny. Every Zelda I've ever seen outside of random 1M GSP teleporting everywhere wifi Zeldas are super aggressive. I LOVE getting in people's faces with her. She has some quick buttons (jab, dtilt, kick, utilt, dash attack) and if she gets you with a combo starter or grab you're probably taking 25. People NEVER play with her so all they have to go on are their experiences at low GSP Zelda encounters and get cheesed by teleports (like they don't see it coming from 10 million miles away) and get salty.

I play both Zelda (my main) and Hard Mode Marth. Honestly I'm much more in your face and aggressive with Zelda than Marth.

Also, Oz o: yeah smash online is the biggest online gameplay dumpster fire I've ever seen in my 34 years of life. There's really no excuse for how terrible it is. And in that vein WHATEVER they did in the 11.0 - 11.0.1 patch made online WAY WAY WAY worse. They did something to the online buffer system that also made it SUPER CRAP. I'm constantly getting moves OOS that I didn't input. I dunno.........

I just dislike the perception that the distinct online to offline reception is presented as to vast by many people (they even use this as the entire basis of Zelda's placement on common tier lists) and with what they say you'd think she's bottom tier. But honestly, while does gain an advantage online I never saw it as THAT huge of a margin that it drastically changes her. She can be just as easily oppressed online by superior mobility and normals online as she can offline.

I've even seen people say because of how she plays in this game Smash 4 Zelda is somehow considered the more viable/better character just because she had "A button" attacks. LMAO I also don't like the logic of "every character's entire fundamental has to be based around spamming A to be considered a "proper" neutral or "non toxic" play. Unless the character's design is just needlessly oppressive. Especially when 4 Zelda had an even more one dimensional playstyle, was even slower and had worse/weaker overall normals. Her only advantages to Ult Zelda is DTilt, Drag down Nair (or just Nair in general) and maybe D-Throw to Uair? Outside of that her design was awful and she lacked any sort of defined playstyle.

 

[stixie]

I just dislike the perception that the distinct online to offline reception is presented as to vast by many people (they even use this as the entire basis of Zelda's placement on common tier lists) and with what they say you'd think she's bottom tier. But honestly, while does gain an advantage online I never saw it as THAT huge of a margin that it drastically changes her. She can be just as easily oppressed online by superior mobility and normals online as she can offline.

I've even seen people say because of how she plays in this game Smash 4 Zelda is somehow considered the more viable/better character just because she had "A button" attacks. LMAO I also don't like the logic of "every character's entire fundamental has to be based around spamming A to be considered a "proper" neutral or "non toxic" play. Unless the character's design is just needlessly oppressive. Especially when 4 Zelda had an even more one dimensional playstyle, was even slower and had worse/weaker overall normals. Her only advantages to Ult Zelda is DTilt, Drag down Nair (or just Nair in general) and maybe D-Throw to Uair? Outside of that her design was awful and she lacked any sort of defined playstyle.

Well... I have so many thoughts right now about this. It IS true that online and offline are two completely different animals. Online has a TON of delay (even with the best connection on earth) and HEAVILY favors projectile camping style play. However, Zelda is (imo) about the same viability online AND offline. She's NOT that bad of a character. She has frame 6 kicks that will break non true combos, a frame 5 jab, a frame 5 dtilt, a frame 6 OOS up b that kills, frame 9 OOS kicks that kill, phantom (one of the best moves in the game imo), the best knockback ftilt in the game, one of the best upairs in the game, one of the best recoveries in the game... the only things that really hold her back are her mobility, grab speed, and lack of a true drag down nair combo. Personally I think she's at the edge of mid going into high tier, people REALLY underestimate her. Ven (a player much less skilled) took MkLeo's Joker to game 5. Zelda kills mad early too if you get a good read.

Smash 4 Zelda was THE WORST or maybe 2nd worst (ganon) character in the game. No idea what they were thinking with her design. Phantom was horrible, Din's would put you into freefall etc. Bad bad bad design.