Let's talk matchups

[StoicPhantom]

I always assume Zelda isn't fast enough to dash under Cloud's aerials, since she's not as fast on the ground as Palu, ZSS or even Samus, but she does have an above average initial dash speed which is really what you need to quickly dash forward to throw off spacing.

Yeah, definitely don't underestimate it. It's virtually a Smash 4 perfect pivot, in terms of giving you the right amount of distance to fine tune spacing. It's useful for all sorts of situations, from baits to maneuvering under high pressure situations.

 

[Erixo]

Having a REALLY hard time against ... Any mu tips?

 

[StoicPhantom]

Having a REALLY hard time against ... Any mu tips?

I'm rusty on this MU, so everything I say here might not be 100% correct, but should hopefully give you a basic idea.

Neutral

G&W is a character that wants the opponent to approach like Zelda, so neutral is largely going to be about baiting the other into approaching. Neither character has good approach tools, but Zelda without Phantom is worse. So you need to up your mind games and pressure him to approach while not taking any baits to do so yourself. You can do so by mixing up full charge Phantoms to bait Bucket(reflector) then punishing it and using your movement to confuse and invite approaches.

Main thing to watch for is Bair. It's a heavily disjointed multi-hit, so is a pretty good spacing tool. Thankfully it's one of his very few, but it's not easy to work around either. Pay close attention to his spacing. If he spaces into shield, it's not safe so you can punish it. If he spaces away it's pretty safe. Try to avoid situations where he can spam it freely, by either sticking close to him and ensuring he has to give up stage control to use it or making to stay directly below him if he is in the air.

Once you get that figured out, his other aerials aren't as effective. Nair is ok, but isn't particularly scary. Dair I don't think is safe on landing, so spacing an Fsmash outside the hitbox range should do it. I think parrying the landing hit might also work. Fair cross-ups are pretty decent, so don't drop shield too early if he goes for that. You can parry Fair pretty easily.

He doesn't have many spacing or neutral tools on the ground. His projectile is annoying, but can be reflected. Dsmash can be used to stuff approaches and is actually pretty scary, doing lots of knockback or even grounding you for a ridiculously powerful for no reason Fsmash follow-up that can kill you at 80. Be very careful when in its range.

The thing you need to be careful of on the ground, is F-Tilt. It's fairly disjointed with decent range and frame 8 startup is nothing to sneeze at. It's safe on shield properly spaced, so don't try to punish it or you're eating another one. It can be punished on whiff with Fsmash otherwise.

Main thing is to not approach in this MU. What little G&W has in terms of forcing approaches, Zelda can counter pretty easily. Mixing up with the full charge of Phantom will force to approach, just be careful of his reflector. Don't think you need to start approaching or attacking if there's a lull in the battle, wait for him to do so instead. One of the most common mistakes I see Zelda players make, is that they crack and try to approach, usually with dash attack. That rarely ever works and will be a free punish.

Advantage

There isn't much to say here, G&W has a decent disadvantage, so go for Up-Tilt and Nair strings at low percents as usual. You're going to have to focus more on catching his landing, as he's too difficult to chase or press advantage and attempting to edgeguard his amazing recovery is likely going to get you stage spiked. Focus on ledge trapping and the occasional Up-air snipe when he gets too comfortable hanging around in the air. Be careful of drop down bucket when going for Phantom ledge traps. I'm not sure I've ever seen it work well, but it might be a thing.

He dies to pretty much anything after 100.

Disadvantage

G&W would normally have some scary combos, particularly with that ridiculous Up-air, but Zelda has good tools to escape. Up-air is a projectile, so you can reflect it with Nayru. Nair is decently disjointed, but is relatively long lasting, so depending on spacing you may be able to Up-B into it. I think Fair can also be reflected, although I don't know how effective it is to do so. Bair and Dair won't give him much.

He doesn't have much to work with at higher percents, so don't worry about the combos so much and focus on the kill options. He has powerful but difficult to hit kill options. Dsmash -> Fsmash is a good confirm, so be wary of Dsmash. Dsmash without the ground is decent but won't kill till at leas 120(I think). Depending on where you are at, it will either send you straight up or at a low diagonal angle or ground you. I think if he hits you close it will ground, if he hits you far up the mallet, you will be sent diagonal. I think if you are in the air, it will send you straight up. DI/mash accordingly.

Other than that, he basically has an invincible Mario like Up-Smash, so don't try to land into him ever, Fair which is a decent kill option when unstaled at around 130ish, Bair and F-Tilt at high percents(150), and Dair at really high percents(?). Not sure about that last one, you shouldn't ever get hit with it anyways. Just be cautious and don't panic and do something stupid and he'll have a difficult time closing out the stock. As your percent climbs, so does your rage and you can kill him pretty early if he can't close your stock. Every kill option outside Dsmash has short range and it's unlikely he'll ever be able to catch your landing with them, provided you don't make it obvious of course.

Offstage, Zelda is still impossible to edgeguard, but G&W is one of the few caveats. Farore's Wind has vulnerable moments and can be punished with sufficiently long lasting aerials, such as Palutena Nair or G&W Bair. That won't be too much of a problem if you practice your teching, but it's something you need to be ready for if he decides to suddenly drop down.

Fair and Dair done from high above the stage can 2-frame, but it's not easy to do so. Be ready to tech there, although I'm not sure if they stage spike.



Patience, patience, patience, when dealing with other campy characters as Zelda. In the vast majority of cases, Zelda should never have to approach. If you find yourself in such a situation, something went really wrong somewhere and you'll need to correct that. Even if it takes a long time to wade through spam, they'll screw up eventually and there's not point in taking unnecessary damage trying to force an approach. Pay close attention to stage control, how your opponent is spacing aerials, and try to position yourself in a way that makes it difficult for them to maneuver. You've been blessed with a myriad of good OoS options and grabs being weak in this game, so abuse that shield as much as possible.

 

[Erixo]

I'm rusty on this MU, so everything I say here might not be 100% correct, but should hopefully give you a basic idea.

Neutral

G&W is a character that wants the opponent to approach like Zelda, so neutral is largely going to be about baiting the other into approaching. Neither character has good approach tools, but Zelda without Phantom is worse. So you need to up your mind games and pressure him to approach while not taking any baits to do so yourself. You can do so by mixing up full charge Phantoms to bait Bucket(reflector) then punishing it and using your movement to confuse and invite approaches.

Main thing to watch for is Bair. It's a heavily disjointed multi-hit, so is a pretty good spacing tool. Thankfully it's one of his very few, but it's not easy to work around either. Pay close attention to his spacing. If he spaces into shield, it's not safe so you can punish it. If he spaces away it's pretty safe. Try to avoid situations where he can spam it freely, by either sticking close to him and ensuring he has to give up stage control to use it or making to stay directly below him if he is in the air.

Once you get that figured out, his other aerials aren't as effective. Nair is ok, but isn't particularly scary. Dair I don't think is safe on landing, so spacing an Fsmash outside the hitbox range should do it. I think parrying the landing hit might also work. Fair cross-ups are pretty decent, so don't drop shield too early if he goes for that. You can parry Fair pretty easily.

He doesn't have many spacing or neutral tools on the ground. His projectile is annoying, but can be reflected. Dsmash can be used to stuff approaches and is actually pretty scary, doing lots of knockback or even grounding you for a ridiculously powerful for no reason Fsmash follow-up that can kill you at 80. Be very careful when in its range.

The thing you need to be careful of on the ground, is F-Tilt. It's fairly disjointed with decent range and frame 8 startup is nothing to sneeze at. It's safe on shield properly spaced, so don't try to punish it or you're eating another one. It can be punished on whiff with Fsmash otherwise.

Main thing is to not approach in this MU. What little G&W has in terms of forcing approaches, Zelda can counter pretty easily. Mixing up with the full charge of Phantom will force to approach, just be careful of his reflector. Don't think you need to start approaching or attacking if there's a lull in the battle, wait for him to do so instead. One of the most common mistakes I see Zelda players make, is that they crack and try to approach, usually with dash attack. That rarely ever works and will be a free punish.

Advantage

There isn't much to say here, G&W has a decent disadvantage, so go for Up-Tilt and Nair strings at low percents as usual. You're going to have to focus more on catching his landing, as he's too difficult to chase or press advantage and attempting to edgeguard his amazing recovery is likely going to get you stage spiked. Focus on ledge trapping and the occasional Up-air snipe when he gets too comfortable hanging around in the air. Be careful of drop down bucket when going for Phantom ledge traps. I'm not sure I've ever seen it work well, but it might be a thing.

He dies to pretty much anything after 100.

Disadvantage

G&W would normally have some scary combos, particularly with that ridiculous Up-air, but Zelda has good tools to escape. Up-air is a projectile, so you can reflect it with Nayru. Nair is decently disjointed, but is relatively long lasting, so depending on spacing you may be able to Up-B into it. I think Fair can also be reflected, although I don't know how effective it is to do so. Bair and Dair won't give him much.

He doesn't have much to work with at higher percents, so don't worry about the combos so much and focus on the kill options. He has powerful but difficult to hit kill options. Dsmash -> Fsmash is a good confirm, so be wary of Dsmash. Dsmash without the ground is decent but won't kill till at leas 120(I think). Depending on where you are at, it will either send you straight up or at a low diagonal angle or ground you. I think if he hits you close it will ground, if he hits you far up the mallet, you will be sent diagonal. I think if you are in the air, it will send you straight up. DI/mash accordingly.

Other than that, he basically has an invincible Mario like Up-Smash, so don't try to land into him ever, Fair which is a decent kill option when unstaled at around 130ish, Bair and F-Tilt at high percents(150), and Dair at really high percents(?). Not sure about that last one, you shouldn't ever get hit with it anyways. Just be cautious and don't panic and do something stupid and he'll have a difficult time closing out the stock. As your percent climbs, so does your rage and you can kill him pretty early if he can't close your stock. Every kill option outside Dsmash has short range and it's unlikely he'll ever be able to catch your landing with them, provided you don't make it obvious of course.

Offstage, Zelda is still impossible to edgeguard, but G&W is one of the few caveats. Farore's Wind has vulnerable moments and can be punished with sufficiently long lasting aerials, such as Palutena Nair or G&W Bair. That won't be too much of a problem if you practice your teching, but it's something you need to be ready for if he decides to suddenly drop down.

Fair and Dair done from high above the stage can 2-frame, but it's not easy to do so. Be ready to tech there, although I'm not sure if they stage spike.



Patience, patience, patience, when dealing with other campy characters as Zelda. In the vast majority of cases, Zelda should never have to approach. If you find yourself in such a situation, something went really wrong somewhere and you'll need to correct that. Even if it takes a long time to wade through spam, they'll screw up eventually and there's not point in taking unnecessary damage trying to force an approach. Pay close attention to stage control, how your opponent is spacing aerials, and try to position yourself in a way that makes it difficult for them to maneuver. You've been blessed with a myriad of good OoS options and grabs being weak in this game, so abuse that shield as much as possible.

THANK YOU for this in depth reply. I am very appreciative! I will try these strats! I also noticed playing yesterday that nayru actually beats his Nair bair and fair if he approaches you. Very useful!

 

[Lacrimosa]

I have to leave soon, so I try to be as short as possible, but how do you fight this thing as Zelda. Might expand on it later when I have more time but these are the two main thing:
One to do with do character itself, like how do you deal with the jumping Gordo at ledge. I tried hitting it with getup-attack but it never works. My timing is so horrible but would that even work? The D3 player usually goes for upSmash because you "should" roll in their eyes.

Then, what to do when he's spamming nAir. I really can't deal with that. UpTilt when he is in the air again and comes down with a nAir?

Other tips and trick are highly appreciated.

 

[StoicPhantom]

It's been a long time since I've played this MU and a long time since I've played the game (been busy). Hopefully I'm not too shaky with this.

Gordos can be reflected by almost any hitbox. Given DDD is slow in the air, you usually have time to setup Phantom before you have to grab the ledge. If he's launching a Gordo then, you can quickly release Phantom and send it back at him. Even if it doesn't hit him, it will be a bit before he can send another one and Phantom will linger a bit and act as a temporary wall to slow him down. If you're already on the ledge, you can quickly jump and Nayru before regrabbing the ledge. Ideally it will bounce back and hit him, but worse case he will shield and you can regrab and try again.

His versatility makes it difficult to hash out a general strategy, but the thing to note is that Zelda's kit completely outclasses his. Use your disjoints, he's very weak to them. Every one of Zelda's moves will beat his in some fashion and he doesn't have much in the way of countering hers. Him being a big target is very bad for him and allows easy juggling and sniping from even moves that are normally difficult to land.

Nair has armor, but armor can be beaten with multi-hits. Zelda's own Nair will beat his as will Up-Smash and Fsmash. If he's spamming Nair. position yourself to where you can land one of these moves. If nothing else, charge in with your own Nair. Phantom is also an option, as you should be able to get away with spamming almost completely free in this MU. Just fall back and charge it and then charge forward with it.

My general style with this MU is to spam Phantom when he's Gordo camping. Phantom being able to reflect Gordos makes a projectile war more dangerous for him. If he's very far away, say offstage, Din's Fire becomes an option and will be very deadly. At some point he's forced to break the stalemate by approaching and you've got the better tools in that situation.

His disjoints can be seemingly annoying at first, especially Jab and Bair, but he's surprisingly unsafe up close. He doesn't have many moves that aren't laggy, so he can become a bit predictable. Jab, D-Tilt, Bair, and F-Tilt are the ones to really watch for. He likes to use these as spacing tools up close, but they really only hit in one direction and at specific speeds. Learn the timings of these moves and then punish OoS on block. His aerials aren't easily punishable, but he can't get too spammy with them, lest you send an Fsmash or something into that spam.

Mostly just force him into the air and offstage and keep him there. He can't Gordo camp Zelda like he can other characters and that removes like half of his game. Pick at him long distance and when he tries to approach, get inside his hammer range and stick very close to him. Don't let him wall you out with his range. The more you can juggle him the better. Mixup Nair and Up-Tilt and keep him on the defensive. He's heavy and it will take some time to kill him, even with Zelda. But be patient and there isn't much he can do in neutral and when you do have him at kill percent, he's pretty helpless to avoid the kill with that size.

Basically be patient and don't do anything rash. He's pretty weak for a heavy and it will be a while before he can kill you. Just don't do anything that will give him an opening to land the kill and you will win any war of attrition.

 

[Lacrimosa]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Looks like one of the best Greninja player, Stroder, thinks that this MU is only -1.
I don't know about that since Greninja can be very oppressive for her, however we have players like Naskino beating Germany's best Greninja player with tarik solidly and Ace Attorney beat Jw at a tournament as well.
Dunno, but thinking that one of her perceived worst MUs is only -1 kinda shows that Zelda doesn't lose any MU hard but only slightly. A Pikachu player also said it's only -1 but I don't know how good DM actually is.

Personally, I think she goes even with a huge amount of chars.
This doesn't include ZSS. This char is really bad for us, sadly.

 

[Oz o:]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Looks like one of the best Greninja player, Stroder, thinks that this MU is only -1.

My exact words. Some people at the Zelda discord said that this and ZSS are our worst MU, going as far to say it's -3. I don't think either are that bad, but you also have to factor in an opponent that exploits all the exact weaknesses, which is not always the case.

Greninja's most consistent and most used approach tool is apparently Dash Attack, and even then, it's still like -13 on shield. That's easy to punish with just Up, in paper. And it's not like we're really forced to approach or heavily pressured by Shuriken, which is likely what has him favour in most other matchups.

And I personally don't think Pikachu is a hard matchup, assuming the many times I played our Top 3 in bracket (who mains Pikachu). In fact, most of the time I tend to go even, it's because of Zelda. I never really get gimped or spiked, and I don't feel a huge amount of pressure from T-Jolts. I think one of our biggest strengths in the matchup is the killing is really on our favour, just to how damn early we can kill. I took a Game 1 once despite heavily being in this Pikachu's favour, and all it took was a bad Dash Attack on shield for me to just kill at 60.

 

[StoicPhantom]

I think it's a matter of the Greninja MU being very volatile, why it seems so contradictory. Greninja has very good setups and an advantage state that can actually chase and combo Zelda at higher percents, netting earlier kills than most of the cast. But if Zelda can play the neutral well, it becomes substantially harder for Greninja to take advantage of those strengths. Which can lead Zelda to nickel and dime him to kill percent, where his lightweight will be an issue. Add on his grab being laggy and Zelda being good at defense and you have a recipe for a surprisingly even MU. It really comes down to whether Zelda can handle the neutral or not. -1 still sounds about right, as Greninja still has pretty good neutral tools, but it's easy to see how it can still go in Zelda's favor.

Pikachu's size is honestly the only thing that makes this MU difficult for Zelda. Looking at ven's match with Captain L, the only real issue was actually the kill. Zelda being so difficult to edgeguard nullifies Pikachu's greatest strength, Nayru and her floaty nature make it very difficult to safely combo at higher percents, taking away another good strength. If Zelda can land the kill, the MU is in her favor I feel and these new buffs to her more sweeping hitboxs like Phantom, might put this MU decidedly in her favor.

ZSS is...hard to pin down. I feel like it's another Greninja situation where her advantage is too good for Zelda to effectively counter, but her neutral is relatively lacking against Zelda's defense. Her grab being as laggy as it is makes it harder for her to deal with shields and whiffs open up a potential big play for Zelda. On the other hand, her mobility and versatility make it very hard for Zelda to play the neutral or go on the offensive. Flip Kick almost completely nullifies Phantom, forcing Zelda to rely on her normals for spacing. I kind of feel like the first neutral win and some very aggressive advantage pressing is the key for either party in this MU. Don't let the other get their bearings again and keep the other offstage as much as possible.

Feel like we need more data on this MU to really say anything, especially with the new buffs/nerfs. Those Twitter posts of her killing ZSS at 70 near the ledge look promising, but probably won't be that good in practice. Where it will be really helpful I think, is stuffing her more disjointed aerials like Bair. If Zelda's new F-Tilt is strong enough, it can make ZSS hesitant to freely spam. That and Phantom power buffs, might make it easier to kill her offstage, where Flip Kick won't be as effective at mitigating Phantom, and give Zelda a boost in that regard.

 

[stixie]

This is pretty funny. Just must be a Zelda thing.

I really abhor Greninja and ZSS. Those two are my worst matchups by far. Both of them are very difficult to pin down and hit properly. Though I'd say Joker is probably also not a great matchup.

Haven't played either Greninja or ZSS matchup since the buffs so I'm not sure how they stack up but I DID play against 2 Jokers in elite smash and won both games soooooooooooo.

 

[Lacrimosa]

So, what do we think of the vs. Byleth MU?
I think this is a clear winning MU for Zelda. Byleth basically has nothing to pressure her. Yeah, Failnaught is an option to prevent Phantom but she will still get it up. They have slow and laggy moves that are especially bad on her Shield because she can punish everything with an OoS option that kills.
Off stage nothing major will happen, but Byleth has a tether recovery and therefore making it very linear. So she can intercept him with some aerial.
thanks to the mobility, Zelda can also pin them down at the ledge with Phantom (free set-up when Byleth's off stage and the upAir is really huge, they won't escape that move if they jump.
And yes, Zelda dies early but she's fast enough to not get pressured by bAirs/fAirs or sideB (which kills Zelda super late).
I got hit by downB but that more because I underestimated that move and not because I got outplayed

Anyway, these are my first impressions against Byleth, so I think this MU might be a total win for her.

 

[stixie]

So, what do we think of the vs. Byleth MU?
I think this is a clear winning MU for Zelda. Byleth basically has nothing to pressure her. Yeah, Failnaught is an option to prevent Phantom but she will still get it up. They have slow and laggy moves that are especially bad on her Shield because she can punish everything with an OoS option that kills.
Off stage nothing major will happen, but Byleth has a tether recovery and therefore making it very linear. So she can intercept him with some aerial.
thanks to the mobility, Zelda can also pin them down at the ledge with Phantom (free set-up when Byleth's off stage and the upAir is really huge, they won't escape that move if they jump.
And yes, Zelda dies early but she's fast enough to not get pressured by bAirs/fAirs or sideB (which kills Zelda super late).
I got hit by downB but that more because I underestimated that move and not because I got outplayed

Anyway, these are my first impressions against Byleth, so I think this MU might be a total win for her.

Yeah I agree. I've played umpteen Byleths and I probably have won 80% of the matches. I love when they think charging arrow is a good idea against Zelda. BWAHAHAHA!! I killed one who charged bow all the way to the yellow one while I was offstage and I reflected it off the level and she IMMEDIATELY died. It was hilarious.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Not really anything that is an issue in specific MUs, but there is an issue when the opponent is only camping and doesn't approach at all.

Like, if I had to pick a MU where this is really suffocating, it's the MU, but camping is something every character can but it seems Inkling can mess her up the most.
So, what's the best strategy against camping and by that I mean staying out of phantom and playing more or less hit-and-run against her, so she's likely to get camped out.
Like, I know staying patient isn't my biggest strength but how do approach a bAiring campy Inkling that stays out of Phantom's range.

 

[stixie]

Not really anything that is an issue in specific MUs, but there is an issue when the opponent is only camping and doesn't approach at all.

Like, if I had to pick a MU where this is really suffocating, it's the MU, but camping is something every character can but it seems Inkling can mess her up the most.
So, what's the best strategy against camping and by that I mean staying out of phantom and playing more or less hit-and-run against her, so she's likely to get camped out.
Like, I know staying patient isn't my biggest strength but how do approach a bAiring campy Inkling that stays out of Phantom's range.

How is she camping you? Splat bomb can be reflected and that's her only projectile. If she's camping the ledge start setting up phantom at the half way point. That's where Zelda wants to be anyways. If you're playing Zelda on the ledge it's a bad idea. Try to hold center stage and use phantom from there. To me inkling is a pretty easy matchup because phantom covers their stupid roller they like to do and their grenade is reflectable.

 

[Lacrimosa]

How is she camping you? Splat bomb can be reflected and that's her only projectile. If she's camping the ledge start setting up phantom at the half way point. That's where Zelda wants to be anyways. If you're playing Zelda on the ledge it's a bad idea. Try to hold center stage and use phantom from there. To me inkling is a pretty easy matchup because phantom covers their stupid roller they like to do and their grenade is reflectable.

And how do I approach characters that have stupid bAirs or high mobility or good tools to get off the ledge which is like 99% of the cast against her?

 

[StoicPhantom]

And how do I approach characters that have stupid bAirs or high mobility or good tools to get off the ledge which is like 99% of the cast against her?

If you're talking about the ones that spam retreating Bairs or Bair in place, then take advantage of their predictability. Inkling's Bair can autocancel, but it still has ten frames of startup (jumpsquat + 7 frame Bair). Nair, LK, and Dash Attack will all beat that, but may require good timing and spacing.

Up-Tilt however, is frame 7 and has a larger hitbox than Inkling Bair. You can time an Up-Tilt as the Inkling lands and it will beat out any Bair attempts, due to the transcendent hitbox. It's meant to be an anti-air, so it will cover everything except retreating. Compare Bair's hitbox with Up-Tilt's hitbox.

Don't chase too hard after retreating aerials. They are trying to bait you. Just move up slowly and choke off their remaining stage control. They'll eventually have to push forward again and that's when Up-Tilt will come into play again.

It's not easy to see visually, but the frame data is there. If they are repetitive, you know what they are going to do next and you can then setup an attack to hit them as they startup.

 

[Lacrimosa]

So, how does Zelda win against ?
I just don't see it. The only MU I can't figure out how to play in at all.

 

[StoicPhantom]

So, how does Zelda win against ?
I just don't see it. The only MU I can't figure out how to play in at all.

https://youtu.be/iyj9ijWC0Y8

A bit skippy in some places and not one of my better ones, but you get the point.

Just keep Phantom and Din's pressure at mid-long range to prevent Gordo camping and use Nair and Up-Air to prevent aerial camping and Up-Tilt to pressure his landing to prevent Bair spam. As long as you can maintain some kind of pressure, Dedede will have a hard time getting anything going.

 

[stixie]

So a matchup that I've noticed is pretty atrocious for the Lightning Queen is Bayo

Anyone else run into this? If you get a good Bayo it's like you're completely smothered and it's VERY HARD to win neutral V this character.

Any strats on this one?

 

[StoicPhantom]

So a matchup that I've noticed is pretty atrocious for the Lightning Queen is Bayo

I don't know that I would call it atrocious, it's just a weird and confusing MU. You can check the video thread for my set with Lima and some discussion on that, as well as some discussion earlier in this thread. I don't have a solid handle on it myself yet, but here are a few observations I've found.

- Don't jump if you can help it. Her specials are angled just perfectly to catch Zelda from half across the stage, so you should try to stay as grounded as possible, lest you get sucked into the vortex of doom.

- Shield shuts down a lot of her neutral, but simultaneously makes you vulnerable to one of her only kill moves (grab). Make sure you're spaced outside her grab range and be ready to spotdodge if it looks like she is charging.

- Save your Up-B OoS for kills, so you don't get the Bayo player conditioned to expect them. Heel Slide is laggy enough that you should be able to punish with other options. I think D-Tilt will put her at sweetspot LK distance too, so be on the lookout for that when she pops back up.

- Bat Within is stupid and will wreck your strings. Make sure you mix things up or she will get free punishes. If the Bayo has a habit of spamming airdodge in disadvantage, it's very laggy, so makes for good punishes. You can easily get LKs if she dodges to the side or an Up-Smash if she dodges down.

- Don't approach her, force her to approach with Phantom instead. She doesn't have much in the way of approach tools and her projectile opens her up for a Farore's Wind punish.

- Witch Time is still a threat, but not as big as Smash 4. She can Witch TIme Phantom, but if you space it properly, she won't be able to punish you. If you are going to do any risky moves in neutral, it should be from a distance with Phantom or when she is in disadvantage with Phantom or Din's Fire. The more Bayo uses that move, the more it degrades, so force her to use it to evade Phantom and other projectiles.

- Her recovery is massive, but overly complex and dependent on lots of different things. After Burner Kick (Side-B) isn't possible to contest as far as I've found, but you might be able to time Din's Fire at the end of the move and at least stall Bayonetta in the air. If you can knock her back or stall her, she will run out of resources eventually. Phantom's sword can contest I believe, so it might be more optimal to send Bayo offstage towards the upper corner and send Phantom her way to keep knocking her back, as low recoveries can be tricky to harass.

- Don't be fooled by her mashing, she's actually fairly vulnerable landing. You likely won't be able to punish her landing without Phantom, unless you're directly under her, but you can safely harass her landing with Phantom. Up-air can also be incredibly effective, just don't make it obvious or you might get WItch Timed.


I haven't been able to make the above into a cohesive strategy yet, and there might not be one in a MU as chaotic and volatile as this one, but Zelda should have this MU when all is said and done. Bayo is light and weak, while Zelda is powerful and difficult to kill. You can kill Bayo fairly early as long as you are patient and can capitalize on openings. The thing to note is that Bayo is oppressive at the beginning, but as your percent builds, things start slowing down for her. She can only kill off of grab, Bair, and very situational ladders, smash attacks, and charged projectiles.

So just be patient and wait for her to whiff one of those laggy moves and you should make back any ground you lost and more. The worst thing you can do is get overaggressive and impatient, as that is what she is looking for.

 

[stixie]

- Shield shuts down a lot of her neutral, but simultaneously makes you vulnerable to one of her only kill moves (grab). Make sure you're spaced outside her grab range and be ready to spotdodge if it looks like she is charging.

This CONSTANTLY happens to me in this matchup. I TRY to not shield but then I get side b'd and take 40-50%.

- Save your Up-B OoS for kills, so you don't get the Bayo player conditioned to expect them. Heel Slide is laggy enough that you should be able to punish with other options. I think D-Tilt will put her at sweetspot LK distance too, so be on the lookout for that when she pops back up.

I rarely EVER up b out of shield so no problems there. I WILL up b when someone is trying to give me a hug but most people in elite smash space fairly well and up b won't hit them. I'll consider it for killing bayo.

- Bat Within is stupid and will wreck your strings. Make sure you mix things up or she will get free punishes. If the Bayo has a habit of spamming airdodge in disadvantage, it's very laggy, so makes for good punishes. You can easily get LKs if she dodges to the side or an Up-Smash if she dodges down.

OH MY GOODNESS is this true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This move is DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMB!!!!!!!!! I was getting so salty...... I had several matchups v a bayo in elite smash and bat within is like what?? frame 1 or something???????? WHY????????????

Like I'd up tilt up tilt and I couldn't even jump to nair before this dumb moves comes out. There's literally NO REASON why this should be so quick.

- Don't approach her, force her to approach with Phantom instead. She doesn't have much in the way of approach tools and her projectile opens her up for a Farore's Wind punish.

- Witch Time is still a threat, but not as big as Smash 4. She can Witch TIme Phantom, but if you space it properly, she won't be able to punish you. If you are going to do any risky moves in neutral, it should be from a distance with Phantom or when she is in disadvantage with Phantom or Din's Fire. The more Bayo uses that move, the more it degrades, so force her to use it to evade Phantom and other projectiles.

- Her recovery is massive, but overly complex and dependent on lots of different things. After Burner Kick (Side-B) isn't possible to contest as far as I've found, but you might be able to time Din's Fire at the end of the move and at least stall Bayonetta in the air. If you can knock her back or stall her, she will run out of resources eventually. Phantom's sword can contest I believe, so it might be more optimal to send Bayo offstage towards the upper corner and send Phantom her way to keep knocking her back, as low recoveries can be tricky to harass.

- Don't be fooled by her mashing, she's actually fairly vulnerable landing. You likely won't be able to punish her landing without Phantom, unless you're directly under her, but you can safely harass her landing with Phantom. Up-air can also be incredibly effective, just don't make it obvious or you might get WItch Timed.


I haven't been able to make the above into a cohesive strategy yet, and there might not be one in a MU as chaotic and volatile as this one, but Zelda should have this MU when all is said and done. Bayo is light and weak, while Zelda is powerful and difficult to kill. You can kill Bayo fairly early as long as you are patient and can capitalize on openings. The thing to note is that Bayo is oppressive at the beginning, but as your percent builds, things start slowing down for her. She can only kill off of grab, Bair, and very situational ladders, smash attacks, and charged projectiles.

So just be patient and wait for her to whiff one of those laggy moves and you should make back any ground you lost and more. The worst thing you can do is get overaggressive and impatient, as that is what she is looking for.

As far as witch time, it really wasn't too big an issue. I maybe got tagged by that once or twice.

Also, I couldn't punish her off stage practically at all.

One thing that really was a pain for me is her jumping and bairing. It was REALLY obnoxious and I couldn't do much about it. Just as you said her landing is hard to punish unless you're right under her and I'm here to say that is absolutely true. Her bair has HUGE range and knockback. I ended up shielding most of the time she was in the air.

 

[The Fliff]

How does Zelda do against the newest batch of DLC characters?

 

[stixie]

How does Zelda do against the newest batch of DLC characters?

Zelda main since nearly day 1 of this game. Also, 8.6M gsp and very avid player. Wanted to throw those creds on ya so I sound legit in my dlc take

Zelda's Favor/DLC Favor

Plant = 70/30 (reflect on cloud and ball - also phantom is a PAIN for plant)
Joker = 45/55 (slight joker favor just because of the frame data and grab speed he dies pretty fast though)
Hero = 50/50 (either can win... zelda wins unless she randomly dies at 30 from stupid jank)
Banjo = 40/60 (shivers)
Terry = 30/70 (I HATE this character with everything in me... personally I think he needs a significant nerf but just my opinion)
Byleth = 50/50 (Byleth has to approach Zelda)
Min Min = 45/55 (interesting matchup dins fire is fun if you jump in the air and aim it down winning or losing this MU isn't fun - terrible character design imo)
Steve = 50/50 (jank character with a jank moveset the only way steve wins is by spamming cart)
Sepheroth = 60/40 (my opinion but seph has a hard time getting through phantom since his counter doesn't reflect and he dies REALLY early to being kicked)

 

[The Fliff]

Zelda main since nearly day 1 of this game. Also, 8.6M gsp and very avid player. Wanted to throw those creds on ya so I sound legit in my dlc take

Zelda's Favor/DLC Favor

Plant = 70/30 (reflect on cloud and ball - also phantom is a PAIN for plant)
Joker = 45/55 (slight joker favor just because of the frame data and grab speed he dies pretty fast though)
Hero = 50/50 (either can win... zelda wins unless she randomly dies at 30 from stupid jank)
Banjo = 40/60 (shivers)
Terry = 30/70 (I HATE this character with everything in me... personally I think he needs a significant nerf but just my opinion)
Byleth = 50/50 (Byleth has to approach Zelda)
Min Min = 45/55 (interesting matchup dins fire is fun if you jump in the air and aim it down winning or losing this MU isn't fun - terrible character design imo)
Steve = 50/50 (jank character with a jank moveset the only way steve wins is by spamming cart)
Sepheroth = 60/40 (my opinion but seph has a hard time getting through phantom since his counter doesn't reflect and he dies REALLY early to being kicked)

Thanks for the reply.

I just started playing this game again after over two years, and every time I've gone against Banjo online I've been absolutely wrecked. Glad it isn't just me that has a hard time there.

 

[stixie]

Thanks for the reply.

I just started playing this game again after over two years, and every time I've gone against Banjo online I've been absolutely wrecked. Glad it isn't just me that has a hard time there.

Honestly Zelda has mostly good matchups throughout the entire cast.

There are a few REALLY REALLY (like completely unwinnable) bad ones that keep her from moving up in the tier list and being used in competitive.

These bad matchups are competent players. Not online wifi spammers. BIG difference.
Her REALLY bad ones:

-Sonic (completely unwinnable - just sd)
-ZSS (completely unwinnable - just sd)
-Wolf (very difficult, his blaster is a PAIN)
-Palu (not unwinnable but the matchup is probably 30/70 in palu's favor)
-Inkling (not unwinnable but her fast frame data combined with a REALLY fast grab speed makes this matchup very hard)

These matchups are some of the most common characters you'll find in the competitive scene which makes Zelda pretty unviable. It's sad really.

The new phantom tech they introduced in one of the recent patches was going to go a LONG ways in helping some of these matchups but then they immediately ripped it away from her in the very next patch. Nintendo is so stupid.

Zelda also needs a faster grab to help in some of these.

 

[The Fliff]

Honestly Zelda has mostly good matchups throughout the entire cast

If by "good" you mean "favorable" I can't say I agree. I admit I'm very out of practice and not up-to-date about balance changes over the last couple of years, and I play pretty much only online at this point so that might color my perspective, but from memory 2+ years ago when I played a lot, I don't think she had that many favorable MUs. A lot of MUs do seem much more manageable than in past games, however.

-Sonic (completely unwinnable - just sd)

Luckily I haven't faced a Sonic since I started playing again a few days ago. Sonic online with lag is nearly impossible :/

-ZSS (completely unwinnable - just sd)

This MU is horrible. One of her worst, for sure.

-Wolf (very difficult, his blaster is a PAIN)

This one is really tough for me, too.

-Palu (not unwinnable but the matchup is probably 30/70 in palu's favor)

I haven't faced a Palutena in a long time, but based on past experiece and their movesets, I would agree that this is really hard for Zelda.

-Inkling (not unwinnable but her fast frame data combined with a REALLY fast grab speed makes this matchup very hard)

Oh god. This MU is a nightmare. It's practically unwinnable online with even just slight lag. I imagine offline it would be somewhat more manageable, but I can't see it better than 30:70.

These matchups are some of the most common characters you'll find in the competitive scene which makes Zelda pretty unviable. It's sad really

I haven't been following the competitive scene at all, but I've found that, just like when the game first came out, the more popular characters online in Elite Smash are tough MUs for Zelda.

Zelda also needs a faster grab to help in some of these

Agreed. Her grab is one of the worst in the game.

 

[StoicPhantom]

I don't play this game much anymore, so I don't have strong opinions on any DLC past Terry. But I would say Plant, Hero, Byleth, Steve, and Sephiroth are all in Zelda's favor while Joker, Terry, and Banjo are closer to even. I'm still undecided on ramen girl.

The former have issues with approach or disadvantage and can be camped easily and murdered hard in advantage. The latter tend to be more balanced in their style and thus require more finessing. Terry and Banjo have good burst options to shutdown Phantom easily and are decent in the close-range even if they tend to suffer in disadvantage. The battle with Terry tends to be a trade-off between speed (Terry) and power (Zelda). The battle with Banjo is more about range (Banjo) versus damage output (Zelda).

Joker is just inherently good and there isn't any real weakness to exploit. But Zelda does happen to be good at countering his usual style of hovering in the mid-range and forcing approaches, so he ultimately has to play outside his comfort zone and rely entirely on his stats alone.

Steve = 50/50 (jank character with a jank moveset the only way steve wins is by spamming cart)

every time I've gone against Banjo online I've been absolutely wrecked

This is more the online than an issue with Zelda. Banjo is difficult to deal with regardless of the character as he's very well-rounded and has moves that work well online, and minecart is probably the most obnoxious move online in the entire game. Nayru's Love can help intercept minecart and a well-timed kick can knock him out of it.



As far as MUs go, the only real problematic ones I feel are ZSS and Megaman. Those are the only ones I feel that you may need a secondary for. All of the rest tend to range between slightly in her favor to slightly out of her favor. And she tends to do fairly well with all the popular and meta relevant characters.

 

[stixie]

If by "good" you mean "favorable" I can't say I agree. I admit I'm very out of practice and not up-to-date about balance changes over the last couple of years, and I play pretty much only online at this point so that might color my perspective, but from memory 2+ years ago when I played a lot, I don't think she had that many favorable MUs. A lot of MUs do seem much more manageable than in past games, however.

Actually Zelda has a LOT more options and I mean a LOT than previous smash games.

Characters like Mario, Cpt. Falcon, Link, Ness, Yoshi, and even Pikachu are all nice matchups that favor Zelda imo.

In fact Zelda 7.0 Matchup Chart is a good reference. I made this after 7.0 came out. Some matchups I think may have changed but the list is still pretty viable imo. The 7.0 patch is where Zelda was buffed btw. She needs more of course but it was after playing many games in that patch that I made that matchup chart.

S StoicPhantom , you may also find it interesting.

Funny thing though, I put Banjo in the winning category in that list. Maybe because I didn't have online influencing me as much at that point.

 

[The Fliff]

As far as MUs go, the only real problematic ones I feel are ZSS and Megaman. Those are the only ones I feel that you may need a secondary for. All of the rest tend to range between slightly in her favor to slightly out of her favor. And she tends to do fairly well with all the popular and meta relevant characters

Megaman is another nightmare MU for me. Even with a good connection and little-to-no lag, I'm at a loss at how to win without playing leagues better the opponent. This MU is worse for her in Ultimate than it was in Smash 4, in my opinion.

In general, I agree that Zelda doesn't have as many hard counters or unwinnable matches as past games, and that she can compete with most of the cast. Just based on my experiences and knowing Zelda's weaknesses, however, I have a hard time seeing her having more advantageous MUs than disadvantageous ones.

Actually Zelda has a LOT more options and I mean a LOT than previous smash games.

Characters like Mario, Cpt. Falcon, Link, Ness, Yoshi, and even Pikachu are all nice matchups that favor Zelda imo.

She both has more and less options depending on the MU, in my opinion. A lot more of her power has been shifted to Phantom Knight, with her other neutral tools not stacking up very well compared to most of the cast. So in the MUs where PK isn't as effective, I think she struggles because a lot of her other moves are lackluster.

I don't have much recent experience with most of those characters you listed, but I'd be surprised if Zelda wasn't disadvantaged against Yoshi or Pikachu. Ness and Link seem more or less even, probably, while I'm not sure about Cpt. Falcon or Mario. I'm not trying to be negative - and I could easily be wrong since I'm still relearning MUs - but in the past this forum has a had a tendency, in my opinion, to overrate Zelda's MUs and rate them as in her favor when they were more even/neutral. So, I'm just skeptical of her having a ton of favorable MUs when she still has so many glaring flaws that can be exploited by someone who knows how to fight Zelda.

I'd be open to discussing specific MUs, though, and reviving this thread a bit.

 

[stixie]

She both has more and less options depending on the MU, in my opinion. A lot more of her power has been shifted to Phantom Knight, with her other neutral tools not stacking up very well compared to most of the cast. So in the MUs where PK isn't as effective, I think she struggles because a lot of her other moves are lackluster.

I actually really disagree with this.

I want to say this is NOT goober level wifi teleporting zelda. I'm talking about actual people who want to really learn the character and how she works.

I think most Zelda players don't really know how to use her specials properly. This is where they start dropping her in matchup viability. Phantom is big and flashy (one of the top 10 moves in the entire game imo) and so it takes center stage in most Zelda player's minds. Phantom, however, is not how I kill most times. The only kills I really ever get off of phantom are ledge trap kills.

Din's Fire is how I get most of my special move kills. This is a move you LAB!! LAB AND LAB AND LAB for HOURS. Get GOOD at this move... and I mean REALLY GOOD. Start predicting where someone is going to be and this move becomes a really dangerous thing.

Also Zelda OOS options are great kill moves. Up b and fair/bair both kill ridiculously early.

Ftilt kills at 78ish at ledge (highest knockback ftilt in the game now - better than incineror).

Down throw into Up Air is a favorite of mine as well.

Down air into Up Air is great too.

Zelda does not have lackluster moves (ok well a few are like her grab speed and such but...) she just has moves that most Zelda players do not know how to use properly.

This coming from someone with like... 12000 games with her. I can also give you some pointers if you'd like. I wish there was a way to online training mode with someone just to learn new things but........... online smash is............... shivers.

I don't have much recent experience with most of those characters you listed, but I'd be surprised if Zelda wasn't disadvantaged against Yoshi or Pikachu. Ness and Link seem more or less even, probably, while I'm not sure about Cpt. Falcon or Mario. I'm not trying to be negative - and I could easily be wrong since I'm still relearning MUs - but in the past this forum has a had a tendency, in my opinion, to overrate Zelda's MUs and rate them as in her favor when they were more even/neutral. So, I'm just skeptical of her having a ton of favorable MUs when she still has so many glaring flaws that can be exploited by someone who knows how to fight Zelda.

For overrating Zelda's matchups see my post above.

I'd be open to discussing specific MUs, though, and reviving this thread a bit.

And I'd be happy to chat about specific MUs.

 

[Oz o:]

Zelda main since nearly day 1 of this game. Also, 8.6M gsp and very avid player. Wanted to throw those creds on ya so I sound legit in my dlc take

Zelda's Favor/DLC Favor

Plant = 70/30 (reflect on cloud and ball - also phantom is a PAIN for plant)
Joker = 45/55 (slight joker favor just because of the frame data and grab speed he dies pretty fast though)
Hero = 50/50 (either can win... zelda wins unless she randomly dies at 30 from stupid jank)
Banjo = 40/60 (shivers)
Terry = 30/70 (I HATE this character with everything in me... personally I think he needs a significant nerf but just my opinion)
Byleth = 50/50 (Byleth has to approach Zelda)
Min Min = 45/55 (interesting matchup dins fire is fun if you jump in the air and aim it down winning or losing this MU isn't fun - terrible character design imo)
Steve = 50/50 (jank character with a jank moveset the only way steve wins is by spamming cart)
Sepheroth = 60/40 (my opinion but seph has a hard time getting through phantom since his counter doesn't reflect and he dies REALLY early to being kicked)

I think you got Byleth and Sephiroth backwards. Byleth is really slow, and the fact he has to approach makes it a lot worse for him than it is for Zelda. Only thing he really has on her is range with things like Fair/Bair and FSmash (which is why you shouldn't get stupid with Neutral B). But his lack of mobility alone makes it a lot harder for him, while Sephiroth at least has a mobility advantage and arguably better overall range. Sephiroth's aerial mobility is better, and things only get massively better with Wing.

Terry isn't particularly slow, but I'm pretty sure camping agaisnt him still works all the same. You can also contest his button mashing if you're good with your normals, so it's not like he always mashes A for free.

 

[The Fliff]

I think most Zelda players don't really know how to use her specials properly. This is where they start dropping her in matchup viability. Phantom is big and flashy (one of the top 10 moves in the entire game imo) and so it takes center stage in most Zelda player's minds. Phantom, however, is not how I kill most times. The only kills I really ever get off of phantom are ledge trap kills.

I don't have an issue with her specials. I don't think I overrely on PK - if anything, I think I utilize Zelda's whole moveset more than most other Zelda players. At least more so than the other Zeldas I've come across online.

Din's Fire is how I get most of my special move kills. This is a move you LAB!! LAB AND LAB AND LAB for HOURS. Get GOOD at this move... and I mean REALLY GOOD. Start predicting where someone is going to be and this move becomes a really dangerous thing.

It is a good edgeguarding tool - agreed.

Also Zelda OOS options are great kill moves. Up b and fair/bair both kill ridiculously early.

Zelda has always had good OoS options. It doesn't necessarily mean she has mostly favorable MUs or a great neutral.

Ftilt kills at 78ish at ledge (highest knockback ftilt in the game now - better than incineror).

It's a welcome buff, but I don't think it changes her position in the grand scheme of things.

Down throw into Up Air is a favorite of mine as well.

Down air into Up Air is great too.

Okay? This is a good combo, but Zelda had this in Smash 4 as well and was one of the worst characters in the game.

Zelda does not have lackluster moves (ok well a few are like her grab speed and such but...) she just has moves that most Zelda players do not know how to use properly.

I don't really like the idea that it's Zelda players not knowing how to use her moves. Most of her moves are the same - or similar to - how they've always been. Zelda's biggest problems, in my opinion, are that she lacks range, has poor disjoints (which makes her transcendent priority act against her often), and has bad end lag. This means she is punished much more harshly for mistakes than her opponents, which has been an issue for her in past games as well. Smash Ultimate arguably exacerbates this due to the game's increased focus on spacing using aerials. While most of the cast have quick, decently ranged aerials with low end lag to use for spacing, Zelda's aerial game is horribly ineffective at this due to the need to sweetspot and the high end lag leaving her open. N-air is the exception, but it has problems of its own: horrible range, bad disjoint, and unreliable, meaning it's often unable to contest other aerials.

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I believe the changes to her Jab nerfed her in this regard. Her old Jab was great as a safe spacing tool because it had a larger range/disjoint and virtually no end lag. It was especially useful at stuffing approaches, especially misspaced aerial approaches. With Ultimate's greater emphasis on SH'd aerials, her new Jab is less suited to Zelda being able to outspace opponents. Then, they nerfed D-tilt's range, futher reducing her ability to safely space in neutral. And with N-air being less reliable, as I said above, along with slower grabs, I think she's less able to face opponents who are able to effectively deal with the PK.

Her punish game is great, but it requires a hard read and/or the opponent to make a mistake and commit to a laggy move. Many characters, when playing carefully and properly spaced, are much harder for Zelda to punish than vice versa. Zelda's ability to play "footsies" in this game is reduced. PK more than makes up for this in some MUs, but in MUs where the opponent can reliably counter it, Zelda struggles because her "footsie" game is bad. This is why I think Megaman, for example, is harder for her in Ultimate than in Smash 4: Megaman's zoning can shut down the PK, leaving Zelda to rely on her other moves that get outspaced worse than in Smash 4.

This coming from someone with like... 12000 games with her. I can also give you some pointers if you'd like. I wish there was a way to online training mode with someone just to learn new things but........... online smash is............... shivers.

I'm far from perfect, and there's a lot I can still learn or improve on, but I think I have a good foundation on Zelda's moveset. I'm open to talking about specific moves, however.

 

[stixie]

I think you got Byleth and Sephiroth backwards. Byleth is really slow, and the fact he has to approach makes it a lot worse for him than it is for Zelda. Only thing he really has on her is range with things like Fair/Bair and FSmash (which is why you shouldn't get stupid with Neutral B). But his lack of mobility alone makes it a lot harder for him,

I have a terrible time with Byleth for some reason. That Fair pokes REALLY well and just randomly kills. Also nair on shield is REALLY hard to predict when to let go of shield. It's deceptive and they get a dash attack for free out of it. Side B also reaches pretty far to knock her out of phantom if he's not at max range.

while Sephiroth at least has a mobility advantage and arguably better overall range. Sephiroth's aerial mobility is better, and things only get massively better with Wing.

Sephiroth dies REALLY REALLY early. I can usually win neutral twice and he's already in kill percent. Dunno if it's just me but I beat about every Sephiroth I play against. Up B is your friend in this matchup.

Zelda doesn't get gimped by flare, she can punish his dash attack, she has a reflector for those stupid balls, his counter doesn't reflect phantom and if you up air him past 60 it's goodnight.

Dunno... just never had issues with him.

Terry isn't particularly slow, but I'm pretty sure camping agaisnt him still works all the same. You can also contest his button mashing if you're good with your normals, so it's not like he always mashes A for free.

My problem with Terry is if he gets ONE hit he'll do 80+ damage. Hes OBNOXIOUS. And... I realize it's top player level but just watch riddles with terry and it's stupid. This is a top tier character... possibly top 5. Offline hasn't been around for a while but when it comes back you're gonna see riddles a LOT.

I think he's in the joker/pikachu category for needed nerfs honestly.

 

[The Fliff]

Sephiroth dies REALLY REALLY early. I can usually win neutral twice and he's already in kill percent. Dunno if it's just me but I beat about every Sephiroth I play against. Up B is your friend in this matchup.

Zelda doesn't get gimped by flare, she can punish his dash attack, she has a reflector for those stupid balls, his counter doesn't reflect phantom and if you up air him past 60 it's goodnight.

Dunno... just never had issues with him.

Could you help explain what works well against him? I've been having a really tough time lately against Sephiroth. The ones I've been playing have been very campy and defensive, and I'm having a hard time dealing with his range. Admittedly, it seems to be a pattern that there is a decent amount of lag during matches with these campy Sephiroths so maybe that's part of the problem, but I'm just not sure what to do when they refuse to approach/commit (I'm talking willing to sit there or run away for minutes on end in order to win levels of BS here). It just seems like I can't punish them, and if I don't take their first stock before they take mine, it seems like there's nothing I can do. For reference, these are Sephiroths at 9-9.1M GSP. They play very differently to the Sepiroths I've come across that were 8.8-8.9M GSP.

At first I thought this MU wasn't bad at all because I beat some Sephiroths without too many problems, but I'm at a loss at how to handle the playstyle of these more defensive, patient Sephiroths. I don't have enough experience in the MU yet to tell if I'm just being screwed over by lag and "Elite" Smash cheese (players refusing to approach/commit unless they're down a stock, and willing to take it to Sudden Death because I've scared them off from engaging with me).

Any tips?

 

[stixie]

Could you help explain what works well against him? I've been having a really tough time lately against Sephiroth. The ones I've been playing have been very campy and defensive, and I'm having a hard time dealing with his range. Admittedly, it seems to be a pattern that there is a decent amount of lag during matches with these campy Sephiroths so maybe that's part of the problem, but I'm just not sure what to do when they refuse to approach/commit (I'm talking willing to sit there or run away for minutes on end in order to win levels of BS here). It just seems like I can't punish them, and if I don't take their first stock before they take mine, it seems like there's nothing I can do. For reference, these are Sephiroths at 9-9.1M GSP. They play very differently to the Sepiroths I've come across that were 8.8-8.9M GSP.

At first I thought this MU wasn't bad at all because I beat some Sephiroths without too many problems, but I'm at a loss at how to handle the playstyle of these more defensive, patient Sephiroths. I don't have enough experience in the MU yet to tell if I'm just being screwed over by lag and "Elite" Smash cheese (players refusing to approach/commit unless they're down a stock, and willing to take it to Sudden Death because I've scared them off from engaging with me).

Any tips?

Don't play online.



No but that crap is seriously legit online. Just sit there and don't do anything is elite smash online in a nutshell. People do that because projectiles pretty much teleport instantly from one side of the screen to the other and delete you. So in essence you get punished for approaching... even before you get to the opponent because reaction times are WAY smaller... like HALF that of offline. People just don't commit to anything unless they have a free hit. It's obnoxious.

As for lag... the MOMENT there's any lag whatsoever the skill threshhold of the match just goes out the window. In lag it's whoever randomly throws out a hitbox PREDICTING the opponent will be in such and such location. You can't react to anything (see above) so you have to predict their movement instead. Lag is what kills online for me.

So for me vs Sephiroth... if I'm getting camped I just camp right back. This is the hardest part about playing Zelda imo. Zelda players kinda get a bad rap for being campy so we like to approach and fight toe to toe in response to the criticism. Play the matchup in this case. Camp the LIVING HECK out of them. CAMP CAMP CAMP LOLOL!! Don't even SNEEZE in their direction. Make them so irritated at you they do dumb stuff and start coming to you. Sometimes I'll just stand there and literally not hit a single button so they KNOW that's what I'm doing to them. Sometimes it's the simple mind games that work.

 

[The Fliff]

People just don't commit to anything unless they have a free hit. It's obnoxious.

Agreed. It sucks all the fun out the match.

As for lag... the MOMENT there's any lag whatsoever the skill threshhold of the match just goes out the window. In lag it's whoever randomly throws out a hitbox PREDICTING the opponent will be in such and such location. You can't react to anything (see above) so you have to predict their movement instead. Lag is what kills online for me.

For me, the reduced reaction time is definitely part of it, but it's also that I have such a hard time predicting their movements and/or the timing of them only in lag. My opponents end up predicting me much better than I do them, but when there's little to no lag, I'm usually able to predict them very well and take control.

So for me vs Sephiroth... if I'm getting camped I just camp right back. This is the hardest part about playing Zelda imo. Zelda players kinda get a bad rap for being campy so we like to approach and fight toe to toe in response to the criticism. Play the matchup in this case. Camp the LIVING HECK out of them. CAMP CAMP CAMP LOLOL!! Don't even SNEEZE in their direction. Make them so irritated at you they do dumb stuff and start coming to you. Sometimes I'll just stand there and literally not hit a single button so they KNOW that's what I'm doing to them. Sometimes it's the simple mind games that work.

This works really well when we already have the stock/percent advantage (assuming tournament rules), but any tips on what to do when we are at a higher percent than them, or down a stock, and the onus is on us to close that gap? My biggest issue against Sephiroth is that if they take the lead, I have such a hard time coming back when they won't approach or commit. I just get completely spaced out. What are the best ways to approach him or bait him into making a mistake? Assuming no lag/offline, how well can Zelda punish his moves if they are decently spaced?

 

[Lacrimosa]

Zelda loses against every DLC except Byleth and Plant.

No experience on Sephiroth.

 

[stixie]

This works really well when we already have the stock/percent advantage (assuming tournament rules), but any tips on what to do when we are at a higher percent than them, or down a stock, and the onus is on us to close that gap? My biggest issue against Sephiroth is that if they take the lead, I have such a hard time coming back when they won't approach or commit. I just get completely spaced out. What are the best ways to approach him or bait him into making a mistake? Assuming no lag/offline, how well can Zelda punish his moves if they are decently spaced?

Ok so OFFLINE talk.

I LOVE this strategy and it works REALLY well most of the time. What am I talking about? Early release phantom.

A lot of Zelda players use phantom in the WRONG way. They use it as a kill option or try to set up traps. The traps work occasionally but the only time I ever kill with phantom is off of edge guards. Zelda has plenty of other kill options. The way I try to use phantom is to early release it on the swipe stage.

Phantom Stages
1: kick
2: punch
3: swipe
4: overhead
5: underhand

Release it early on stage 3. This is extremely fast and catches a lot off people of guard. It does a great job making people very gun shy about rushing you down or being in that "sweet spot to fight Zelda" range. This will usually keep Sephiroth from trying to cheese you with spaced aerials. The benefit of this is so you can start setting up phantom FOR REAL at about half stage and forcing an option out of them. If they're being really shy about approaching because they've been swiped 5-6 times you can feel free to set phantom up all the way about half stage.

Din's is pretty worthless in this matchup because of Sephiroth's extra jump offstage (I still throw it out anyways but the jukes are really easy with a third jump).

Also don't be afraid to scumbag their stupid flares with neutral b (just be wary of the fact that the explosion hits several times so if you miss the projectile you're probably going to die after the invicibility of your neutral b wears off.

Sephiroth grab is fast and difficult to punish. Dash attack however... early percent try rising nair (usually connects)... kill percent should be up b out of shield. Sephiroth's up b they do into your face from all the way on the other side of the stage can be grabbed. If he's at about 50% do a downthrow/up air and it will kill him. It'll break the person of the up b habit REAL FAST.

All said, the key to this matchup (offline where you can actually react to things) is patience. Use phantom as a tool and less as something you try to kill the opponent with.

 

[stixie]

The Fliff

MSM Online 42 - ven (Zelda) Vs. Bestness (Ness) Losers Semis - Smash Ultimate

Super Smash Bros Ultimate Tournament gameplay from around the World!Join the community and attend 2GG events to get your matches uploaded!Be sure to subscrib...

youtu.be

Online gameplay in a nutshell.

 

[The Fliff]

The Fliff

MSM Online 42 - ven (Zelda) Vs. Bestness (Ness) Losers Semis - Smash Ultimate

Super Smash Bros Ultimate Tournament gameplay from around the World!Join the community and attend 2GG events to get your matches uploaded!Be sure to subscrib...

youtu.be

Online gameplay in a nutshell.

For real. I hate facing campy Ness players in Quickplay for this exact reason.