Let's talk matchups

[StoicPhantom]

It really depends. Zelda's got a pretty good array of tools, but they're all pretty specific and precise in what area they cover. Ultimately, you want to get used to mixing and matching moves as the situation demands, like Sheik.

For Roy, you need to focus on his next move, not his current. You need to predict what it will be, based on the current situation. Meaning how far away you are, how many jumps he has, what options he has, what options you have, his position, and what the Roy player likes to do.

So let's say Roy is offstage and is going to the ledge. You can setup a fully charged Phantom, which will cover normal getup and getup attack. You can then position Zelda to cover roll and jump. Time the setup just before he grabs the ledge and Phantom will be able to hit him, if he just waits and his ledge invincibility runs out. The invincibility time gets shorter at higher percents, so sometimes you can release Phantom early, and still hit them.

Smart opponents will go for the 50-50 of roll or jump. That's when you need to read which option he will do. Let's say he decides to double jump over Phantom. There's a small delay at the startup of the second jump, that will allow you to use Up-air and punish. If successful, this will either KO or put him high in disadvantage. Even if it isn't, he will still be high in the air, so you still have time to pressure his landing. This is when you need to setup the next phase: pressuring his landing.

Let's look at Roy's landing options. His Dair is very poor, will trade with Up-Tilt, and Up-air will completely beat it. It's also linear, going straight under him, so any attack that can hit him from the side, will be safe. However, Zelda's Up-air is a tad on the slow side, and Roy can fall very fast. So Up-air is only really optimal to use, when he's still high in the air. So if he's trying to stall in the air, use fast fall Up-air and attempt to juggle and pressure an option. You can sometimes mixup with empty hops and see if you can bait an air-dodge.

If he's too close to the ground, you're going to need to prepare for landing options. His Fair can stuff aggressive approaches, but only if his opponent is in front of him, and it isn't safe on shield. Same with Nair. He also has counter, which is unsafe on whiff, air-dodge, which can be punished on read, or he can land and do a ground option, depending on if he used a move before landing.

Now you need to determine how far you are from where he's trying to land. If he's too far away to do anything other than a dash attack, you'll need to use your best judgement on whether you can beat his landing or not. I tend to err on the side of caution and wait, as it can be pretty iffy at that range, and whiff on shield, will be hard punished. If you are close, you now have a variety of options.

If tries to land with an aerial, parrying or shielding then OoS punishing will suffice. Alternatively, if you're behind him, and he messes up the spacing on Bair or Nair, you can grab during the animation. With specific spacing, you can Fsmash as he lands, but that is difficult to pull off, and if he does counter as a mixup, your going to pay dearly.

If he successfully lands though, you still have a window of opportunity. He can shield, roll, jump, or use a quick ground option(Jab, D-Tilt). It will again be up to you to figure out which one he takes. This will come down to conditioning and studying their habits. If they tend to shield, you need to time grab right as they do it, given it's startup. If you miss that opportunity, you're going to have to find a way to pressure, while avoiding that intangible Up-B OoS. Unfortunately, this is where things stop being a sure bet, and you're going to have to rely on gambles and your wits. For instance, Nayru's Love will beat his Up-B at that distance, but if he decides to hold shield, you're getting punished.

He can also roll on landing or OoS. Dash attack and other moves out of a dash can punish, but if he decides to shield, you might be punished. You could just keep running and see if he rolls before committing, or if the movement makes him panic OoS and then punish, but if he's patient, it might cost you an opportunity and let him sit in shield. Same with jumping and doing a quick ground option. Jumps can be anti-aired, but obviously those won't be safe on shield. You can beat most of his ground options, with things like Jab or Fsmash(I think), but if he counters, it won't end well.

So as you can see, there is many, many layers to each state, and there isn't very many guaranteed options or punishes. Ultimate nerfed reactive play heavily, so you're going to have to start thinking and playing like above, or play one of the few characters that can still play reactive(etc). There are far too many safe options for there to be easy whiff punishes, so you're going to need to start manipulating space, limiting options, and learning to read habits and exploit weaknesses, in order to do well in Ultimate, especially with Zelda.

Ftilt is also a bit too slow and pretty dangerous.

To put things in perspective, F-Tilt starts up a few frames faster that Fsmash, cools down a few frames faster than Fsmash, has a range equivalent or greater than the first hits of Fsmash, and is intangible. Meaning any situation where Fsmash would be safe/unsafe, F-Tilt would be as well.

So let's take Wolf's Fsmash for example. IIRC, it has a startup at 20 frames, and it's fairly safe in most cases. Wolf players will sometimes just throw it out in neutral or on an approaching opponent, because even if they whiff, chances are likely they will suffer no consequences. Now Zelda's Fsmash starts at the sixteenth frame. There's a four frame difference between the two, equivalent to Zelda's Jab.

If you can't punish the endlag of the move, then the next step would be to try to punish the startup. Four frames isn't very large in the grand scheme of things, so you run a big risk of getting hit instead. I think the transcendence of Fsmash, is only on the final hit, meaning you actually have much less frame advantage to work with, and I think it ends up even or slower than Wolf's Fsmash in the end. And a good Wolf is going to properly space things so that moves like Jab or D-Tilt won't reach.

However, F-Tilt starts up on frame 12, so you have eight frames of startup advantage. You could space an F-Tilt during the animation of Wolf's Fsmash, and beat it, due to the intangibility or even just with speed. Even if you whiff, proper spacing would still have you be safe from his Fsmash. So there is definitely uses to moves like F-Tilt over Fsmash or more common Zelda moves.

So take that idea and apply it to the first part of my post. If you can't punish safe characters like Roy, then the next step would be to try to hit them during an action, not after it. This will require MU knowledge, and proper spacing and timing, but Zelda's most underrated strength is her disjoints. Not just normal disjoints, but transcendent ones as well(Nair, Fsmash, Up-Tilt, Jab). You can beat the vast majority of moves in the game. Meaning, you don't always have to worry about punishing endlag, you can often hit them during a move.

Start experimenting with what move can beat what, you'll be surprised at just how many interactions you can win.

I haven't tries fair OoS because I can't get the input consistently

Do you mean you have trouble doing the input OoS, or you have trouble spacing the sweet-spot? If it's the former, just keep practicing it. If you don't mind setting your right stick to attack, simply press jump and flick your right stick forward at the same time.

If it's the latter, try judging the spacing by where your opponent is positioned. You can't really DI with Fair very well, so whether you can land the sweet-spot, really depends on how close your opponent is. Up-B OoS is just as quick, so you can use that if they are too close for the Fair sweet-spot. If they're at too low of percent to properly ladder, just press down after the initial hit and you'll Up-B in place. Some characters like Joker, are going to have very deceptive spacing, so you'll need to put more attention to understanding those MUs. Nair is also a good option.

What I really need to stop is using Nayru as a "panic" option. That move is good when it hit but the cooldown is huge (nearly 60 frames).

Try using Nayru as a last resort. If your trying to land, wait for the last possible second, before using it. If an opponent is trying to bait it out, you'll often times be able to land for free. If they get antsy and rush at the last second, that's when you use it. You should always try to use movement to get yourself out of bad situations first, only resorting to use another option when you truly have no other choice.



And for future reference, the first post in this topic is a very meticulously detailed post about all of Zelda's frame data and hitboxs, including pictures, done by our board mod.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Finally having had the time to read your response and I've to say that there is still a lot of griound to cover for me. I rarely use the tilts (especially uTilt) in any MUs.
Maybe I was a bit too hasty when I called Roy her worst MU but it certainly is still not great, either. Looking forward to fight against one of the FE swordies now. I've gotten a bit more safe on Marcina at least and also Ike's getting better now. But no luck in Chroys after we discussed them here.

Something I wasn't even aware of is that you can use upTilt and fTilt while crouching. Don't know if that will be helpful in this MU but reducing your own hurtbox is always good when you can act with a solid upTilt like hers.
I've still much to learn about this game. This also includes fAir OoS (I can usually space it but I roll most of the times when I attempt it but as you said, that requires more practice).

 

[daddypeach]

I've had some success using the weaker versions of phantom against Roy in neutral, just sparingly to discourage him from mixing standing around in his spacing game. There's not a great way to discourage him from neutral jumping without discouraging him from waiting in shield first. When Phantom is mixed in, Roy seems more likely to jump or lose ground. This gives Zelda some opportunity to aggressively cross under and mix him up at close-range.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Finally having had the time to read your response and I've to say that there is still a lot of griound to cover for me. I rarely use the tilts (especially uTilt) in any MUs.
Maybe I was a bit too hasty when I called Roy her worst MU but it certainly is still not great, either. Looking forward to fight against one of the FE swordies now. I've gotten a bit more safe on Marcina at least and also Ike's getting better now. But no luck in Chroys after we discussed them here.

There was a lot there lol.

I'm not too sure about Roy yet, but I wouldn't put him as her worst. It seems you're still struggling with your inputs a little, so I would suggest attempting to dedicate a significant amount of time to practicing them. I'm not one to talk, because I don't really like input practice all that much, but it is important. Being able to do what you need without thinking, will make MUs like Chroy easier, and allow you to do those frame tight punishes.

Similarly, it's also necessary to become familiar with all her moves and their potential uses. I won't pretend they all will be significantly useful(lol Up-Smash), but most of them have their uses. Become familiar with their speed and range, and then go about experimenting on how to string them together. And practice using them out of a run too.

Sometimes it's better to punish a roll with Up-Tilt than grab. If the opponent is at a percent where they can easily DI or if they are very difficult to edgeguard to the point sending them off stage is pointless, then it would be better to combo into Up-Air. Similarly, Nair and Up-Tilt cover a lot of the same situations, but Nair is going to be useless against an Ike Fair, while running Up-Tilt might duck under and hit his vulnerable areas. This way, you can ensure you get the most out of every neutral win.

Once you get the basics figured out, this MU and many others will become much easier.

I've still much to learn about this game. This also includes fAir OoS (I can usually space it but I roll most of the times when I attempt it but as you said, that requires more practice).

If you're rolling, then you're likely inputting the stick too soon. I don't know what controller or control scheme you use, but consider setting your right stick to attack, so you won't have to press A and a direction, you can just input forward on the right stick after pressing jump, and automatically Fair. If not that, at least make sure you are using a button to jump, not tap jump.

Tap jump has its uses, but it is almost always better to use a button to jump. That way, your left stick is free to DI, and you can lower the input complexity. I have the R button set to jump on my pro controller and have my right stick set to attack. So all I have to do, is press R and forward on the right stick and I'll Fair OoS. Previously, I used the X button to jump on my Joycons, while pressing A and forward on the left stick. Due to the new short hop macro, simply pressing X + A allowed me to instantly do a short hop aerial. I could simply press that first, and then quickly input the direction during the jump squat, and it would still buffer Fair.

Whatever you use, make sure you are pressing jump first, before you input the aerial. You don't need to do them at the exact same time. You have at least three frames for the jump squat, and you don't have to press it the instant you leave the ground. As long as you are still in sweet-spot range, you can input an aerial at any point in the jump. A good timing, would be to press jump, then before you start to depress, input an aerial as your finger/thumb is rising back up from the jump button. Hopefully, this makes sense.

I've had some success using the weaker versions of phantom against Roy in neutral, just sparingly to discourage him from mixing standing around in his spacing game. There's not a great way to discourage him from neutral jumping without discouraging him from waiting in shield first. When Phantom is mixed in, Roy seems more likely to jump or lose ground. This gives Zelda some opportunity to aggressively cross under and mix him up at close-range.

This would also be good to do. Just mind your spacing, as Roy is fast enough to fast fall a DJ aerial on a read, if he's in the right position.

 

[Yashill]

Question is what do I punish them with. Grab seems to slow and doesn't outrange when they space their moves properly, at least that's my experience I had. Ftilt is also a bit too slow and pretty dangerous.
I haven't tries fair OoS because I can't get the input consistently, maybe that's an option but it should be the fastest option (I really don't know her framedata outside of Nayru) because Kuroganehammer didn't have the framedata and I don't know another website that has framedata. But they have added her by now and it looks like fair OoS is indeed her fastest option.

What I really need to stop is using Nayru as a "panic" option. That move is good when it hit but the cooldown is huge (nearly 60 frames).
I guess I really need to be more patient in this game in general but especially against chars like Roy (I also underestimate their disjoints but that's not really a MU problem). I'll try keeping this in mind when I face another Roy and hopefully it'll go better than.

I agree with Stoic and just wanted to add some personal experience to it. If you aren't able to get fair or something OoS consistently, Nair or UpB are a bit easier I found. I recently had to fight a Roy in a bracket at a local tourney and REALLY had to play the stage game. No platforms or as little as possible. It's also important to learn what you can land consistently because of how hard a punish can be for Zelda if she gets caught out. Dash attack is quick and pretty big. It's great as a get off me tool and also for just racking up damage.

Truly the sword v Zelda mu just requires patience. Shield and don't get antsy. Especially with their side b. It has lag but they will try to change up the rhythm of it to get you to drop shield.

Also I want to plug instant pivot grabs because it literally makes her grab viable.

 

[BuddydaBomb]

Thought I'd get a thread going for this and I think it might help a lot of us if we're all talking about how to deal with certain characters or situations.

I've been having a tough time vs (surprise surprise) aggressive sword characters, Ike, Lucina, Chrom etc.. They're super fast and just put on a ton of pressure while remain super safe. There's not a lot you can really do at their ideal spacing ranges and while Nayru's helps when they're crossing you up during aerials, they can still hit you pretty easily if you whiff it (or they just space something like a fair properly), and getting back to stage from the ledge is an absolute nightmare. For me, it's definitely not just the matchups, I really need to mix up my options from the ledge, but Zelda doesn't feel like she has an awful lot of strong options when she is on the ledge.

Inkling too for pretty much the same reasons, except their range is of course a lot less so you have a little more breathing room in that regard. They still very much control the flow of the game though, at least during my games.

Some strong Ness players have also been destroying me. His attacks are disjointed and pretty stronk, especially ones like fair, bair and dash attack. I am definitely not exploiting his slow recovery enough though. Phantom is definitely much safer in this matchup. I think I am just not properly respecting his options enough.

Most of this stuff is more to do with my lack of solid fundamentals more than the matchups I'd say (though fast sword characters are awful to play against for sure), but I still think it's worth bringing these things up because we can discuss a lot of safer/better options here.

Let's get talking gorls!

Play as patiently as you can and bait and punish laggy moves

 

[StoicPhantom]

I should also mention, that if you can, you should lab the Roy MU on Final Destination. Not having platforms to mixup his landing, should show you how bad his disadvantage can be.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I don't know if I'm in the position to make something like a MU chart but I still want to give it a shot with some personal experience (Yeah, Online suggs and I should go to a real tournament eventually) and from what I've seen on stream. But I think it would still be fairly adequate and outliers should be discussed.



+2
+1
+/- 0(if Snake were lighter +1)
-1
-2

I know I'm very optimistic about her but I think that has a good justification actually. Some characters where I'm a bit iffy at are Fox and Inkling. The rest should hopefully fit.
So, basically all swordfighters are bad for her, what a surprise. Heavies are actually quite nice for herbecause of their huge hitboxes with means many fAir/bAirs attacks. Majority should go even, but I can imagine that Fox (he's at least fast but his hitboxes are rather short which is really good for her), Mario and Palu can be -1 for her while Robin, Olimar and Snake can be +1.

 

[Yashill]

Just responding with my thoughts with experiences. A lot of the time that I have felt like the MU is losing....it's because my experience sucks and I turn it around when I learn the MU.

So starting from the bottom up:
is only losing if you have lag from online or don't know what to do with him. I'd put it at +1 because you have to respect his bs but if you just get him off stage zelda has everything to keep him off.
only win if you allow them to approach. I used to hate the MU until I realized I just had to stay a distance, keep up a wall and be prepared for turnips. Sure if she touches you, you explode, but that's how she is in general. And Zelda tends to fall out of some combos? At least from my experience which seriously helps here. Hell if you are lucky to bait out a toad counter, naryu's onto it. You'll reflect the counter back on her.....it's that bad. So i'd say maybe even?

Can be devastating if you aren't ready for her. I feel she falls in the category of the fast characters that can be in your face with their mobility. The difference with her and say is that some of her movement can be more predictable and blocked. A patient Bayo in this MU can be MUCH more difficult in my opinion. I'd have Bayo at -1 and zss at -1 or even.

is only a problem because knight can be negated by her gravity pull. But luma is easy to toss out with Zelda's moves and maybe its my experiences with people who aren't at Rosa's top level of play but I feel like she is super easy to deny. Easily a +1 for me unless it's dubs and they cheese knight in which case -5 lol

This MU like with other spacies but especially this one is dependent on if you can perform the displaced phantom. If you can..then it's +1 if not +2 based on your comfort

I'd put as +1 or +2 because of how large he is. His hitboxes are large but so are his hurtboxes. Don't go in unless you have to.

is +1 for me because Snake is definitely one of the best characters, however Zelda's special just completely dominate Snake's projectiles. He pulls a grenade? din's fire on his shield it explodes, free shield dmg. He throws it? phantom scoops it away or takes the hit. Nakita? naryu's it. or even teleport into him and force him to do something else. And it's easy to deny his recovery with phantom at ledge or a simple dair onto the upb.

I know i'm probably alone in this but I feel that Ness and Lucas are probably switched on your tier list for me. Pk fire alone is more of a problem for me with Lucas than with ness. Just DI up and out and ness pk fire is pointless. Lucas just explodes you and is more obnoxious and in your face. OR MAYBE THE FEW LUCAS PLAYERS I KNOW ARE CRAZY AND I JUST LEARNED THE NESS MU IDK.

is definitley at least +1, especially after the nerfs. Don't dont let him play his game...but naryu's and knight just are too much for the pikmin. The fact you can reflect all the smash attacks on him for almost easy stocks...i mean you have to read it or get a little lucky but seriously it denies what makes him good.
Actually add to this concept. Yeah the whip is strong and the range is insane but we have reflects where they don't and it's easy to close in the distance and punish the laggy projectiles or options they do have.


These are just my quick glance thoughts. As a whole I place the fast paced in your face characters higher just because the mobility can be so hard to deal with if you aren't prepared. I truly believe any character in this game is good in the right hands. And I feel like i'm more optimistic if you think you are optimistic with your tier list lol. I love Zelda and think people sleep on her. The problem is bad habits with Zelda are so punishable so it makes her look worse than her options actually are. If this all makes sense anyway.

 

[Daymaster02]

Brief note on Ness because he was being talked about earlier in the thread, off-stage Nayru's Love absolutely destroys PK Thunder for recovery. Best case scenario you dropzone Nayru's and reflect the ball of PK Thunder before he can recover, leaving him to just fall and die, and even if you don't get that, the actual hitbox of Nayru's just knocks Ness out of the move anyway even after he actually hits himself with the ball, with 100% consistency. Then, if you just get back to the ledge, you can repeat until he's either forced back on-stage (usually leaving him vulnerable, best-case to a ledge-hop Lightning Kick), or the opportunity to just kill him with any of your other aerials arises. So basically if you can force a Ness to recover low by hitting him with Down Smash or something, he's as good as dead. (For the most part the same applies to Lucas, though his tether can make things harder on that end)

Oh also as for dealing with Ness's PK Fire because reading through this in more detail shows me some people aren't aware of the best way to deal with that. As it turns out, the individual hits of it are far enough apart that if you're either frame-perfect or just mashing super fast you can Nayru's Love out of it and reflect the fire back at him even as you're burning, punishing the Ness for whatever followup they try to perform. Ness palyers usually eventually get wise to this and then in turn start absorbing the reflected PK Fire, but even then that only heals him like 5% and plus you got out of a long combo.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Some characters where I'm a bit iffy at are Fox and Inkling

Your placements are perfectly fine, although I've been feeling like we might have an advantage over Fox. The only major issues I'd take is in your +2 and -2 category. Yashill already went into the - stuff, so I'll just reiterate that online can skew some things(a lot of things). are nearly impossible to fight online. Lag shaves off startup and endlag and makes some normally punishable moves not punishable. It's also impossible to react to certain moves like Roller in more situations than it would be offline. This can significantly change MUs and make some characters shoot up the tier list.

I'd also say you might be sleeping on a little. I don't think anyone but are bad MUs but they're not free. Everything else I might bump up or down here and there, but not anything significant.

is only a problem because knight can be negated by her gravity pull. But luma is easy to toss out with Zelda's moves and maybe its my experiences with people who aren't at Rosa's top level of play but I feel like she is super easy to deny. Easily a +1 for me unless it's dubs and they cheese knight in which case -5 lol

I've played some pretty good Rosalina players that made her Smash 4 version seem inferior. It's much easier to do the desync stuff than in 4, and they can do some pretty crazy stuff. While Zelda can knock Luma away pretty easily, Rosa can punish Zelda for doing so pretty easy too. She can also play keep away against Zelda pretty easy, since she can negate Phantom, so it can be difficult to take advantage of Luma's absence. She can also use Luma to cover the ledge, while she punishes any other getup options Zelda can take. Of course, she is very tall, light, and floaty so I think it's even, but it isn't free.

is +1 for me because Snake is definitely one of the best characters, however Zelda's special just completely dominate Snake's projectiles. He pulls a grenade? din's fire on his shield it explodes, free shield dmg. He throws it? phantom scoops it away or takes the hit. Nakita? naryu's it. or even teleport into him and force him to do something else. And it's easy to deny his recovery with phantom at ledge or a simple dair onto the upb.

I have extensive Snake experience, including a friend who mains him, and while it is true Zelda can negate projectiles, that's only half of the battle. For some reason he has a close range kit, that puts a lot of dedicated close range fighters to shame. He has a lot of large multi-hit aerials, combined with quick ground options that significantly shift his hurtbox. Dash attack is also incredibly stupid, being intangible, covering like half the stage, and shifting his hurtbox massively. This allows him to keep mobile, while being able to contest up close. The only thing that really counters his dash attack, is a well timed Nayru's Love.

The hardest thing about fighting Snake is catching him with a kill option, while dodging all of his traps, and keeping yourself in a position to outrange his close range moves. His constantly shifting hurtbox makes it difficult to land sweet-spots. His weight makes it difficult to KO him with any weaker options. While his disadvantage isn't good, Zelda is too slow to really take advantage of it, and you have to wade through a hail of grenades, and an air-dodge that spans half the stage. Zelda doesn't have a lot of true combos or confirms, so he can keep blowing himself up, and you can't take as much damage as he can.

Optimal Snake mains will combo you into their projectiles. Things like dash attack -> Up-Smash or D-Tilt-> Up-Smash/Grenade. He can even throw you into C4. He can switch from defense to offense instantly, so if he sees an opening to combo into the projectiles he's spamming, he'll do that. You have to watch for those confirms, while chasing him, while avoiding running into the various projectiles. He lacks as many kill options as Zelda, but his are easy and safe, while he can make very difficult for you to hit him.

The only issue is that it takes a very skilled and experienced player to take full advantage of everything Snake has to offer. There isn't really any concept of stage control with Snake, so being able to freestyle while constantly on the move, in a way that will still trap the opponent and keep them from easily rushing you down, is a very difficult task. If you don't feel like you are having much difficulty with him, chances are you aren't playing a very optimal one. Skilled Snake players will know how to navigate disadvantage and recovery, while putting insane amounts of pressure on you in neutral, switching from offense and defense instantly, and always being on the lookout for openings.

I'd personally give this an even, but keep in mind at the highest level of play, Zelda is negative Vs. Snake, with Ven losing to Salem at SNS and the recent CEO.

I know i'm probably alone in this but I feel that Ness and Lucas are probably switched on your tier list for me. Pk fire alone is more of a problem for me with Lucas than with ness. Just DI up and out and ness pk fire is pointless. Lucas just explodes you and is more obnoxious and in your face. OR MAYBE THE FEW LUCAS PLAYERS I KNOW ARE CRAZY AND I JUST LEARNED THE NESS MU IDK.

The difference is that Ness can angle PK Fire, while Lucas can only fire in a straight line. This allows Ness to cover his landing with the aerial version and extend combos with it, including reading your SDI on the grounded version and hitting you with an aerial one to prevent you from escaping. It can also be used to edgeguard, including comboing to Dair. While Zelda can mitigate this somewhat with Nayru's Love, overall this is part of what makes Ness better than Lucas.

While Lucas can space with his, it's still linear and easily parried, and doesn't cover his landing. Neither character can land well, but Ness can mixup with his Magnet and PK Fire to make juggling difficult, while Lucas kind of has to rely on his aerials, which Zelda can outrange. Wavebouncing will only get him so far. Ness is just simply more versatile when it comes down to it.

As far as optimism goes, I'm more optimistic than you all lol. I'm not entirely sure Zelda has any significant losing MUs. I've been debating on being -2 for her, but I'm not sure on that. Theorycraft leads me to believe they target Zelda's fundamental weaknesses in easily killing, dealing with insane aerial mobility, and approach(by removing Phantom from play). The very few skilled mains I've played seems to correlate, but I'm lacking experience overall.

If I were to bang out an MU chart based on my current thoughts real quick, it would look something like this:

+2

+1

+/- 0

-1

-2

Shaky on a few of them like , Miis, and those I put in -2, but more or less how I feel at the moment. How's that for optimism?

 

[Lacrimosa]

Ven has at least a win over MVD in a Winner's Finals but that was way earlier and he lost to MVD in the following Grand Finals, albeit very close.
Snake players seem to put this MU in a +1 for Snake and the results speak for that, saly. But it seems that Ven is closing the gap as also the matches vs. Salem were close (assuming Salem picked Snake and not Shulk).

 

[StoicPhantom]

Ven has at least a win over MVD in a Winner's Finals but that was way earlier and he lost to MVD in the following Grand Finals, albeit very close.
Snake players seem to put this MU in a +1 for Snake and the results speak for that, saly. But it seems that Ven is closing the gap as also the matches vs. Salem were close (assuming Salem picked Snake and not Shulk).

Well, I think Ven's issue was not having enough experience with top level players, so I figured he'd be closing the gap eventually. I just wanted to put things in perspective.

I think Snakes are overselling their character in this MU. While what I said above is true, it's not like it's any easier for Snake to land the kill on an optimal Zelda. Nikita being negated means he will have to come out and fight eventually, as long as Zelda can avoid any random grenades. That's when Zelda has a shot at using her close range moves. It will ultimately come down to who can close out the stock, so that's why it's even.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I'm fairly confident in saying that the Belmonts are a +1, maybe even +2, for Zelda now. If you know their framedata, you can punish them super hard with Farore's Wind out of all moves. All three projectiles are completely negated (when Zelda's in Farore range) so you only have to stay out of Whip range and the Belmonts aren't the fastest so she can keep them out fairly well. On top of that, their recovery is super vulnerable against her nair. One hit and they're dead.

Cross has 44 total frames
Holy Water has 45 total frames
Axe has 66 total frames
Farore's 2nd hit comes out at frame 35 to 36.
That are 8, 9 and 30(!) frames reaction time which is fairly big.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying it, but I had huge trouble versus the Belmonts (Cross goes through Phantom) but I looked at their framedata and they are super punishable for everything they do with their specials which defines their gameplan a lot.

 

[Yashill]

Maybe I'm oversimplifying it, but I had huge trouble versus the Belmonts (Cross goes through Phantom) but I looked at their framedata and they are super punishable for everything they do with their specials which defines their gameplan a lot.

No you are not oversimplifying. Kit wise, you are absolutely right. Frosty (the best Belmont in Chicago) will not go him against me for that exact reason. Kit for kit, zelda should win if played properly, but anything can happen and players are different

 

[StoicPhantom]

Hello Zelda Mains,

I am having a tough time against Yoshi. I am hoping you guys have some solid advice on how you deal with them. I find myself getting stuck in combos and when I finally get out I'm around 50%. Do you have tips for me?

Thanks in advance.

Hi, I'm going to answer this here, so we can keep MU stuff in one place and others can have an easy place to quickly look things up.



50% combos are going to be a given in this MU, you're going to just have to work around it. Rather than worry about damage, just focus on not getting hit by a KO option.

Neutral

You need to play very patient and cautious. Yoshi is tricky and is looking for an overextension, so avoid trying to be aggressive or getting impatient here. He doesn't have as good of approach tools as it might seem, so keep calm and try to weave out of his hitboxs. The biggest issue is going to be dealing with the insane mobility and his aerials. You'll need to deal with each one differently, in order to stand a chance at punishing this thing.

Fair

His Fair is intangible with a meaty hitbox, so don't try to challenge it. If you're on the ground, try to parry it. He'll cross your shield up and escape punishment normally, but you should be able to punish OoS on a parry. If you're in the air, you need to either fast fall immediately if you're off stage or time a Nayru and hope for the best, depending on the distance. You should avoid putting yourself in any position where you can be hit by it in the air(don't challenge him from the front).

Nair

This one is pretty much broken and there isn't much you can do it about it. If tries to land with it into your shield, then you can OoS it, but if uses it as a cross up or approaches with any sort of forward momentum, you can't really do much about it. Just keep patient and shield and he'll try another option. Watch out for it as a combo breaker, stick to true combos, or moves you know will out range it(Up-air etc).

Bair

Somewhat situational, but be careful, as I believe Bair 1 can combo into kill moves. Use caution when he has his back to you in the air or is approaching with his back to you.

Up-air

You really shouldn't be above him in the first place to get hit by this, but he can combo into it from other moves I think, so just try to jump out of it and DI away. Just make sure you aren't setting up a Fair spike off stage.

His ground moves aren't much, so he'll be in the air the vast majority of the time. Just watch out for his grabs, especially the command one when he has his back to the ledge, and you should be good for the most part.

One thing you'll need to be careful of, is his eggs. They can bounce on the ground now and setup some of those ridiculous combos of his. Avoid jumping, as he can anti-air with those eggs. Just be patient and weave around them like you would other projectiles. He'll also use them as stalls and momentum shifts, so be on the lookout for him using them to turn himself around and give him access to his Fair/Bair or stalling in the air and trying to bait you into overcommitting. He's still locked into a somewhat lengthy animation while doing so, so if you can get under him when he does this, you might be able to Up-air punish.

Advantage

Once you can finally land a hit, he's easily juggled and you can do the usual combos on him. His jump is both his main tool to keep himself in the air, but also his main weakness. He'll often try to spam eggs or use said jump to escape further combos. You can take advantage of this and trap his landing. He really only has Dair, Down-B, and air dodge as mixups. You can bait air dodges and Down-Bs by empty hopping then punishing the landings. Dair is a little trickier, you can either try to be cool and parry all of the multi-hits or dash out of its range and punish with Fsmash. He'll generally only do it, if you're trying to OoS or if you are directly under him.

His recovery can be tricky to deal with, his jump has super armor and can avoid multi-hits, but he also has no Up-B recovery. Zelda's been blessed with a myriad of edgeguarding tools, so probably has an easier time edgeguarding than most. One important thing to note, is that Yoshi can't snap to the ledge with anything other than Down-B above the ledge. Meaning, you can force him to burn his jump and knock away from the ledge, similar to Cloud. Do what you can to force him to jump early, and then determine whether he is going to recover high or low, depending on his current height, resources, and the angle you launched him at.

Din's Fire is exceptionally good at forcing jumps, so it should always be used when they get launched deep. If he gets launched high, he'll often try to recover high, using eggs and his jump to trick you. If you can force him to burn his jump, you can trap his landing as usual. If he attempts to go the ledge or immediately to the ground, Phantom can easily knock him back. If you manage to knock him low, then you can setup Phantom at the ledge, then attempt to use Nayru's Love at the ledge and combo into Phantom. There are a lot of different combinations, so experiment with different ways to counter his various angles of approach.

Disadvantage

Like I said above, you're just going to have to work around his combos. The thing to note is as I illustrated above, you can punish him just as hard as he can punish you. Focus on not dying rather than not taking damage. At the end of his long combos, he's going to be looking for a panic option to Fair/Fsmash. So long as you avoid putting yourself in any position where he can Fair, Fsmash, or Up-Smash, you can live for quite a long time, just as long as he can. You have the almighty Nayru's Love, so you can afford to think and take your time landing.

Off stage, Fair is high committal, so if he comes charging at you, just avoid it and use that time to quickly recover to the ledge. He'll some times B-reverse an egg to attempt to stage spike you, so be watchful and don't panic if you do get hit. Zelda is slow and floaty in the air, but that works to her advantage off stage and allows her to hang around for a long time. As such, use that to your advantage and carefully avoid any harassment, and it will be difficult for him to edgeguard you. Properly timed Nayru's Love will beat anything he has, so you can use that as a last resort.

Whip range

This would be where I would feel this MU can get a little murky. Those things are actually pretty difficult to play around on a skilled player, and it can be difficult to chase them with Zelda's poor mobility if they have the lead. I'd still be okay with a +1 though.

No you are not oversimplifying. Kit wise, you are absolutely right. Frosty (the best Belmont in Chicago) will not go him against me for that exact reason. Kit for kit, zelda should win if played properly, but anything can happen and players are different

How much do your experiences line up with this match? Was Mystearica not playing optimal or does this Belmont player know something yours doesn't? It seems Mystearica adapted much better in the second game, but that edgeguarding was pretty nasty. I've only played Belmont players online, so I don't know how much lag can affect dealing with the Whips.

 

[Erixo]

Hi, I'm going to answer this here, so we can keep MU stuff in one place and others can have an easy place to quickly look things up.



50% combos are going to be a given in this MU, you're going to just have to work around it. Rather than worry about damage, just focus on not getting hit by a KO option.

Neutral

You need to play very patient and cautious. Yoshi is tricky and is looking for an overextension, so avoid trying to be aggressive or getting impatient here. He doesn't have as good of approach tools as it might seem, so keep calm and try to weave out of his hitboxs. The biggest issue is going to be dealing with the insane mobility and his aerials. You'll need to deal with each one differently, in order to stand a chance at punishing this thing.

Fair

His Fair is intangible with a meaty hitbox, so don't try to challenge it. If you're on the ground, try to parry it. He'll cross your shield up and escape punishment normally, but you should be able to punish OoS on a parry. If you're in the air, you need to either fast fall immediately if you're off stage or time a Nayru and hope for the best, depending on the distance. You should avoid putting yourself in any position where you can be hit by it in the air(don't challenge him from the front).

Nair

This one is pretty much broken and there isn't much you can do it about it. If tries to land with it into your shield, then you can OoS it, but if uses it as a cross up or approaches with any sort of forward momentum, you can't really do much about it. Just keep patient and shield and he'll try another option. Watch out for it as a combo breaker, stick to true combos, or moves you know will out range it(Up-air etc).

Bair

Somewhat situational, but be careful, as I believe Bair 1 can combo into kill moves. Use caution when he has his back to you in the air or is approaching with his back to you.

Up-air

You really shouldn't be above him in the first place to get hit by this, but he can combo into it from other moves I think, so just try to jump out of it and DI away. Just make sure you aren't setting up a Fair spike off stage.

His ground moves aren't much, so he'll be in the air the vast majority of the time. Just watch out for his grabs, especially the command one when he has his back to the ledge, and you should be good for the most part.

One thing you'll need to be careful of, is his eggs. They can bounce on the ground now and setup some of those ridiculous combos of his. Avoid jumping, as he can anti-air with those eggs. Just be patient and weave around them like you would other projectiles. He'll also use them as stalls and momentum shifts, so be on the lookout for him using them to turn himself around and give him access to his Fair/Bair or stalling in the air and trying to bait you into overcommitting. He's still locked into a somewhat lengthy animation while doing so, so if you can get under him when he does this, you might be able to Up-air punish.

Advantage

Once you can finally land a hit, he's easily juggled and you can do the usual combos on him. His jump is both his main tool to keep himself in the air, but also his main weakness. He'll often try to spam eggs or use said jump to escape further combos. You can take advantage of this and trap his landing. He really only has Dair, Down-B, and air dodge as mixups. You can bait air dodges and Down-Bs by empty hopping then punishing the landings. Dair is a little trickier, you can either try to be cool and parry all of the multi-hits or dash out of its range and punish with Fsmash. He'll generally only do it, if you're trying to OoS or if you are directly under him.

His recovery can be tricky to deal with, his jump has super armor and can avoid multi-hits, but he also has no Up-B recovery. Zelda's been blessed with a myriad of edgeguarding tools, so probably has an easier time edgeguarding than most. One important thing to note, is that Yoshi can't snap to the ledge with anything other than Down-B above the ledge. Meaning, you can force him to burn his jump and knock away from the ledge, similar to Cloud. Do what you can to force him to jump early, and then determine whether he is going to recover high or low, depending on his current height, resources, and the angle you launched him at.

Din's Fire is exceptionally good at forcing jumps, so it should always be used when they get launched deep. If he gets launched high, he'll often try to recover high, using eggs and his jump to trick you. If you can force him to burn his jump, you can trap his landing as usual. If he attempts to go the ledge or immediately to the ground, Phantom can easily knock him back. If you manage to knock him low, then you can setup Phantom at the ledge, then attempt to use Nayru's Love at the ledge and combo into Phantom. There are a lot of different combinations, so experiment with different ways to counter his various angles of approach.

Disadvantage

Like I said above, you're just going to have to work around his combos. The thing to note is as I illustrated above, you can punish him just as hard as he can punish you. Focus on not dying rather than not taking damage. At the end of his long combos, he's going to be looking for a panic option to Fair/Fsmash. So long as you avoid putting yourself in any position where he can Fair, Fsmash, or Up-Smash, you can live for quite a long time, just as long as he can. You have the almighty Nayru's Love, so you can afford to think and take your time landing.

Off stage, Fair is high committal, so if he comes charging at you, just avoid it and use that time to quickly recover to the ledge. He'll some times B-reverse an egg to attempt to stage spike you, so be watchful and don't panic if you do get hit. Zelda is slow and floaty in the air, but that works to her advantage off stage and allows her to hang around for a long time. As such, use that to your advantage and carefully avoid any harassment, and it will be difficult for him to edgeguard you. Properly timed Nayru's Love will beat anything he has, so you can use that as a last resort.


This would be where I would feel this MU can get a little murky. Those things are actually pretty difficult to play around on a skilled player, and it can be difficult to chase them with Zelda's poor mobility if they have the lead. I'd still be okay with a +1 though.


How much do your experiences line up with this match? Was Mystearica not playing optimal or does this Belmont player know something yours doesn't? It seems Mystearica adapted much better in the second game, but that edgeguarding was pretty nasty. I've only played Belmont players online, so I don't know how much lag can affect dealing with the Whips.

Thank you so so much for this I will study it.

 

[Yashill]

Hi, I'm going to answer this here, so we can keep MU stuff in one place and others can have an easy place to quickly look things up.



How much do your experiences line up with this match? Was Mystearica not playing optimal or does this Belmont player know something yours doesn't? It seems Mystearica adapted much better in the second game, but that edgeguarding was pretty nasty. I've only played Belmont players online, so I don't know how much lag can affect dealing with the Whips.

Oh yeah I remember this one! I mean at the end of the day it comes to MU experience and how the player plays it. In this case I cant say for certain, maybe Mystearica wasnt feeling it or Biggie just pushed an advantage and can adapt well.

When I was discussing Frosty, he probably would have beat me even with Belmont (he’s just good) but his point to not do it was he didnt have as much experience against Zelda (seriously only a couple of us here in Chicago). He even said he’d feel more confident after he got a chance against Mystearica.

A Belmont can still edgeguard well just like he can against many characters. Zelda has the tools to just ignore his kit. His tools can be reflected. As long as you dont spam, you wont get whipped as easily. We have more tools off stage than he does. And if they try to camp? Dins fire has more range.

Good players are still good players and I feel that most characters are not bad in this game. But at worst Id say Zelda has a little more than slight advantage.

 

[Lacrimosa]

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Jup, sound about right,

 

[Yashill]

Lol! Yeah I saw this and thought it was very appropriate. This sums up how I feel. Like I don't feel Zelda HARD loses really any MU. She may be disadvantaged but not destroyed by other characters

 

[Lacrimosa]

Lol! Yeah I saw this and thought it was very appropriate. This sums up how I feel. Like I don't feel Zelda HARD loses really any MU. She may be disadvantaged but not destroyed by other characters

Except Roy. I hate him so much :^).#
Well, I actually think I could have him as a secondary but I hate him when playing Zelda.

 

[Yashill]

Except Roy. I hate him so much :^).#
Well, I actually think I could have him as a secondary but I hate him when playing Zelda.

Lol it's definitely a harder one. And we all have THOSE characters we hate. Personally, My demon lately has been luigi. I know what to do but sometimes doing that just doesn't work and then you lose stocks for it

 

[StoicPhantom]

I kind of have to wonder about Shulk, I think Ven and Mystearica have beaten him in bracket, although I guess they haven't played Nicko, who I think is the best Shulk. While Joker and Cloud aren't necessarily easy, I can't say I've personally struggled any harder than even. Maybe Mystearica knows something I don't. Not sure about Fox being where he is either. I'm ok with all the rest, though. Seems pretty accurate.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I kind of have to wonder about Shulk, I think Ven and Mystearica have beaten him in bracket, although I guess they haven't played Nicko, who I think is the best Shulk. While Joker and Cloud aren't necessarily easy, I can't say I've personally struggled any harder than even. Maybe Mystearica knows something I don't. Not sure about Fox being where he is either. I'm ok with all the rest, though. Seems pretty accurate.

Ven has lost to Nicko multiple times in his locals when Nicko came over and Mystearica has played DarkShad who was beaten by Myst at least once.

 

[Yashill]

Yeah Shulk's hitboxes are a little too large to say he doesn't have some advantage. On top of that speed shulk makes him hard to avoid. Just in general he can be harder to deal with. Smash Shulk however is a bad idea against Zelda...cuz one lightning kick to the face and they are dead.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Shulk is a character that really struggles with phantom, though. His franmedata is the worst of all the swordfighters and he doesn't always have Speed art out. Yes, his sword is a big disjoint but he isn't really fast enough to properly use it most of the time. I think phantom is the factor that decides this MU. If you are a bit too slow then she loses but when set up properly, Shulk has an incredibly hard time getting. His recovery is also super exploitable for her. I know I said +1 but it's one of the MUs I get a better grasp on, also in theory and tending more towards even. Same goes for Ivy (I finally know how to DI his dThrow -> upB kill combo, so it's much more bearable now ^-^) and Squirtle

Bonren has also put out his MU chart:

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Interesting for me is Pit, Bowser, DK and Palutena. I think he's a bit too pessimistic here but I think it's also something I can agree with. But fighting against the Pits is also interesting because they have pretty good aerials that outrange Zelda's aerials by a good amount. So I can see where Bonren's coming from if that's his reason. The controllable arrows also mess up her phantom unlike D.Pit's arrows.
She should still beat all the superheavies but of course DK has some devastating combos but they can be intercepted with Nayru and I never struggled versus a Bowser but it's also the MU I know the best of all the MUs and Bowser's huge body is an invite for fair/bair.

However, I would switch Pichu with Pikachu. Pichu isn't a problem for her anymore because of the fTilt nerf and he has no hitbox on quick attack. Yes, Pichu can combo but what is he gonna kill with without dying first (phantom is again huge in this MU)?

Just some thoughts but this MU chart looks pretty good.
However, and that isn't good for her, the fact that a lot of top-tiers are a bad MU does really hurt her viability and these characters are super common up there. I really hope they buff her ground mobility a tiny bit so she can control space better with phantom. It would do really much because intercepting other characters would be easier then, I think. But ok, this is no buff wishlist topic :<.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Ven has lost to Nicko multiple times in his locals when Nicko came over and Mystearica has played DarkShad who was beaten by Myst at least once.

Did not know that or forgot. Tried to look it up on Youtube, but could only find stuff from three months ago(Nicko). Has Ven lost any recent ones to him or could we potentially chalk this up to MU inexperience? It also was pretty close, so I'm not sure why this is considered losing, given all our top Zeldas seem to be going even in these matches.

Yeah Shulk's hitboxes are a little too large to say he doesn't have some advantage. On top of that speed shulk makes him hard to avoid. Just in general he can be harder to deal with. Smash Shulk however is a bad idea against Zelda...cuz one lightning kick to the face and they are dead.

I can definitely see where his range would be a problem. It's just as Lacrimosa pointed out, Shulk's disadvantage is poor and easily exploitable. He also doesn't seem to have an easy time killing Zelda, as long as she can avoid Smash art. From all I can gather through videos, it really kind of seems to be dead even, even if it doesn't feel like it when in the match. Can't fully tell if it's because Shulks haven't optimized the MU, but if Ven and Nicko have been playing since a few months ago, I'd think something would have been figured out by now.

Bonren has also put out his MU chart

Another sword heavy disadvantage. I must be an outlier of Zeldas, I don't have much of a problem with swords outside of Lucina. Even Lucina feels pretty doable once I stop getting baited into approaching her. For me, it's the Ness and Pikachu small character types.

She should still beat all the superheavies but of course DK has some devastating combos but they can be intercepted with Nayru and I never struggled versus a Bowser but it's also the MU I know the best of all the MUs and Bowser's huge body is an invite for fair/bair.

I think an argument could be made due to their extreme advantage state. Bowser can combo a Bair from Nair, which will kill Zelda pretty early. He also has very good OoS options and his Fair will beat all of Zelda's close range stuff. I'm not entirely sure, but I think his Up-Smash might beat Nayru or at least forces strict timing. Seems he has armor from frame 11-13 and then is invincible for most of the move afterwards. Nayru doesn't start it's active hitboxs till around there and I don't think it can do the 8% to knock him out of it, before the invincibility kicks in. You pretty much have to pray for an LK sweet-spot if he catches your landing. Regardless, he's pretty much built to kill stupid early, so a case could be made for even entirely due to that. He is easy to hit, but is also the heaviest character in the game, so can live at least a little longer than most, even with Zelda's extreme power.

DK's a little harder to sell, but with tight spacing on the DK's part, he might give Zelda some trouble in neutral. Intangible attacks, basically grant him a sword, but without the relatively telegraphed hitboxs and vulnerability on whiff a lot of sword characters have. He also has a nasty shield breaker Side-B that can be used as a mixup and hamper Zelda's OoS. Up-B can work as a bootleg version of Rob's Side-B, trading reflect capabilities for super armor, making Phantom spacing a little difficult sometimes. He's also fast enough in the air to catch Zelda off guard and has enough mixups to hamper Zelda's juking, with his Fair, Bair, and Up-B.

I don't know that I would personally classify DK as even, but I wouldn't blame someone for doing so.

However, and that isn't good for her, the fact that a lot of top-tiers are a bad MU does really hurt her viability and these characters are super common up there. I really hope they buff her ground mobility a tiny bit so she can control space better with phantom. It would do really much because intercepting other characters would be easier then, I think. But ok, this is no buff wishlist topic :<.

While I think Inkling and Greninja are bad MUs, I don' t know that I would classify the rest as bad MUs. Outside of Chroy, Peach and maybe Pichu, I think everyone of the top tiers listed there, Zelda has beaten consistently. I'm not sure I can agree to to be definitively losing. I don't know enough about Roy at top level play to really say. Megaman's also pretty unknown. We need more data at the top level to be sure, I think.

 

[Lacrimosa]

No, I think Nicko went to one Vegas local again but did face FOW instead of Ven then.
Anyway, I wanmt to talk about , and .
This character is just a big enigma to me because I have no idea what this character's attacks do or rather I don't know how to distinguish the attack. But it's also pretty hard feeling with him. I've seen Mystearica beating Sonic players quite consistently, most notable 6WX.
I guess I should watching a Sonic guide but there's also the problem of not knowing what to do when he's charging one of his specials. Holding shield isn#t really an option because he can charge for so long. So basically, I'm kinda lost in this MU.

Same kinda goes for . I haven't played Smash 4 after Corrin was released so I guess it's kinda understandable I struggle against these two characters. Now, I don't really lose against a Bayo but it's never fun to play against her. I think my saving grace is that she really can't kill Zelda all that easily aside of a bAir which is fairly easy to avoid when you see the Bayo player fishing for it. But I don't ever feel like in control of the match and I'm kinda curious how to improve that.
And Cloud is again a swordfighter who like Roy has way too much knockback on his moves. So getting outranged is common here so it's better to keep distance. Maybe intercepting him with Nair but that's not an option when he is nairing (it's faster).

 

[StoicPhantom]

I actually don't know that much about this MU. Looking at this set, it seems Mystearica stuck close at all times, preventing Sonic from getting anything started. His specials seem to be laggy in their startup, so if you stick close to him, you should be able to hamper any zoning. You can also interrupt them with disjoints like Nayru. His giant head seems to make it easy to land LK sweet-spots and you can even do those to any startup of his. He lacks kill moves, so if you can bait a grab, you can punish hard.

Her Ultimate version traded frame data for range it seems. Her special hitboxs might seem scary, but they don't have anywhere near the same priority as they did in 4. Try to get used to the range of her aerial specials and move just outside of them when she tries to approach with them. You can then take advantage of the endlag to punish them. Same with her grounded Side-B, except I don't believe it's safe on shield, so might try to punish OoS depending on spacing. I think you can also simply hop over it as well.

I think one very important thing to note, is that her recovery does not snap to the ledge, similar to Smash 4. Unlike Smash 4, you can contest her hitboxs with your own disjoints. Phantom will be very useful in catching her at the ledge. Nayru can also beat her hitboxs as well. If you combine the two moves, you can keep knocking her away until she burns all her resources. This will mean she will die anytime you knock her off at any significant speed/distance. You can prevent high recoveries in a similar manner.

That I think is what puts this MU squarely in Zelda's favor. Being able to hard punish a light character on any kill move whiffs is pretty good, but a recovery that exploitable is pretty much a done deal. Phantom can be Witch Timed, but as long as you space it properly, Bayo usually won't get anything significant off of it and its effectiveness decays with multiple uses.

Cloud lost his range from 4 and his Limit is now on a 15 second timer. His advantage is pretty good, but he'll have to go through a not too easy neutral to access it. Nair's range nerf has made it lose effectiveness as an approach and shield pressure tool, but Bair is still alive and still remains his main spacing tool. Fair can also be used to space, but is a bit telegraphed, so make sure you parry when he attempts, because it's not really punishable otherwise.

So make sure you don't attempt to approach or contest him he when has his back to you and parry any Fair attempts and you should only have to worry about his ground stuff. His D-Tilt is a good approach tool and isn't something you're generally going to be able to punish OoS. He doesn't have much outside of that, so will likely play a bit on the defensive side.

This is where you're going to need to be careful about approaching. His F-Tilt is deceptively quick and has lots of range, so a frontal assault will be impossible. Up-Tilt is also a very good anti-air, as is Up-Smash. You should always have Phantom covering any approach here. The most optimal play here, is to keep forcing him to approach, by using Phantom to discourage any camping. Cloud is much more vulnerable when approach now, than he was in 4.

If he catches you in disadvantage, there's not much you can do as he can really trap you in a whirlwind. Just make sure you don't do anything that might land you into an Fsmash or Fair spike offstage. If has Limit, he'll try to combo you into a Cross Slash, so try your best to not end up in front or behind him, but sometimes there might not be anything you can do. That's why you should try to play defensive when he gets Limit and wait it out. He has 15 seconds and will try to use Limit Cross Slash or Blade Beam when times almost up. Be on the lookout for those moves and shield or otherwise avoid them.

Offstage, you need to worry about Fair chases or a Dair at the ledge. He can't chase you very far, so just try to move deep offstage and then use your jumps and recovery to make it back. Definitely don't try to use Phantom near the ledge, as he is quick enough to interrupt it. Main thing you'll want to be aware of, is Dair from a ledge jump. If you see a Cloud hanging at the ledge, he's likely waiting for you to start your recovery. You need to either Up-B past the ledge and hit him or see if you can get close enough for an Up-air, otherwise there is a high chance of a 2-frame.

When you have the advantage, Up-air will beat his Dair, so you don't have to worry about him using it to cover his landing. Mostly, you'll want to be knocking him offstage as soon as possible, because his Up-air is basically Ike's, without the height or super armor(normal version). Phantom will catch him at the ledge and instantly end things. You'll mostly want to worry about him recovering high, because his airdodge is very good. Try to make him burn it as quickly as possible with Din's Fire, then go about punishing it with Phantom or your normals. The more low of an angle you can knock him offstage at, the better. He's very heavy for his speed, so it's best if you can end things offstage.

 

[Yashill]

Yeah pretty much agree with the above.

is sorta wacky. There aren't too many sonic players but the ones that are out there are dedicated. I don't have much experience in the MU. From what experience I do have, Sonic is sorta like the "bad" characters where they work really hard and can be hard to deal with but will still lose just because he cannot kill as easily. Like one time in a bracket I was fighting a sonic and I thought "wow I'm losing, idk what to do..." and then won just because I landed some stray hits that killed.

Holding shield is sorta problematic because it's hard to read his moves. IIRC up smash tends to beat their homing attack. Because homing attack has a tendency to try to hit above. But I could honestly have just gotten lucky with that, idk how consistent it would be.
If you are trying to space him out, force him in the air and you should have an easier time dealing with him.

so she was my main in sm4sh as I started competitive play. It was always between Zelda/Bayo for me. I'm trying to work on her again for this game and we some dedicated players around here. This is another character that has to work hard to sorta just be mediocre? like what I said above with sonic. I'm more used to playing AS her then playing AGAINST her. Especially as zelda.

What Stoic said above is very true. Get her off stage and you are definitely more in advantage. She can play around out there but only when she initiates it really. She kinda has to recover now or lose a stock. And getting back on ledge can be harder with how WT was changed. One thing to note is the difference between WT and her ABK. WT doesn't snap to ledge but ABK AFAIK can when going straight to ledge. So it's easier to keep her off stage if you force her to go low.

What is more of a problem is the on stage play. Something I noticed the last time I fought a good bayo as Zelda was that it seemed like short hop abk could actually go right over phantom and also catch you if you weren't low profile. So be careful about leaving yourself open just because you have phantom out. She's still very mobile..not with some lag but good bayos aren't going to just leave themselves open to it too much. On top of that bats within can almost negate LK and some kill options at times.

If you can...really go for those OoS options as they abk towards you. Up B and LK can be really good OoS because she stays close to you on shield.

Ok chalk this up to what I said about luigi. Personal demon and hate fighting it even if I know what to do. Maybe it's ptsd from sm4sh but I struggle getting around the aerials he has. The last time I played someone who plays Cloud I legitimately was relieved they switched to their other main...Chrom.

Stoic is definitely right with the MU, I just feel like dumb fighting Cloud. Knowing whats gonna happen and tricking myself into getting hit. I just feel its more deceptive on what actually hits and what doesn't.

 

[daddypeach]

I can't figure out what I am missing against Bayonetta. Is it possible to escape her up b combos??

 

[Luminario]

I can't figure out what I am missing against Bayonetta. Is it possible to escape her up b combos??

In my experience DIing upwards helps to escape them.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Yeah, (S)DI it. I don't know how exactly the SDI has to be but do also buffer an airdodge.
Don't use Nayru. It's not fast enough in my experience.

 

[StoicPhantom]

I can't figure out what I am missing against Bayonetta. Is it possible to escape her up b combos??

As others mentioned, you can SDI her combos. One thing to note is that she can't really ladder you to the blastzone anymore, so you just need to avoid follow ups once you've broken out. Ideally, you wouldn't get hit in the first place, because even with SDI, you're still playing Zelda and are going to take lots of damage regardless.

Bayonetta doesn't have great approach options, so just play patient and avoid Bair, grab, and her smashes, and she can't do much to KO. She's honestly more flair and intimidation than actual danger now. Other than that, study the tips in the above posts and you shouldn't have an issue going forward.

 

[Lacrimosa]

As others mentioned, you can SDI her combos. One thing to note is that she can't really ladder you to the blastzone anymore, so you just need to avoid follow ups once you've broken out. Ideally, you wouldn't get hit in the first place, because even with SDI, you're still playing Zelda and are going to take lots of damage regardless.

Bayonetta doesn't have great approach options, so just play patient and avoid Bair, grab, and her smashes, and she can't do much to KO. She's honestly more flair and intimidation than actual danger now. Other than that, study the tips in the above posts and you shouldn't have an issue going forward.

One thing to mention is that she'll fish for a bAir at higher percents because that's her only kill move until fThrow comes into place at around 150% (I think?) at the ledge.
I honestly don't know how to avoid bAirs as I get stuffed by that move constantly but knowing what she's looking for will also help.

 

[Downshift]

Cloud lost his range from 4 and his Limit is now on a 15 second timer. His advantage is pretty good, but he'll have to go through a not too easy neutral to access it. Nair's range nerf has made it lose effectiveness as an approach and shield pressure tool, but Bair is still alive and still remains his main spacing tool. Fair can also be used to space, but is a bit telegraphed, so make sure you parry when he attempts, because it's not really punishable otherwise.

So make sure you don't attempt to approach or contest him he when has his back to you and parry any Fair attempts and you should only have to worry about his ground stuff. His D-Tilt is a good approach tool and isn't something you're generally going to be able to punish OoS. He doesn't have much outside of that, so will likely play a bit on the defensive side.

This is where you're going to need to be careful about approaching. His F-Tilt is deceptively quick and has lots of range, so a frontal assault will be impossible. Up-Tilt is also a very good anti-air, as is Up-Smash. You should always have Phantom covering any approach here. The most optimal play here, is to keep forcing him to approach, by using Phantom to discourage any camping. Cloud is much more vulnerable when approach now, than he was in 4.

If he catches you in disadvantage, there's not much you can do as he can really trap you in a whirlwind. Just make sure you don't do anything that might land you into an Fsmash or Fair spike offstage. If has Limit, he'll try to combo you into a Cross Slash, so try your best to not end up in front or behind him, but sometimes there might not be anything you can do. That's why you should try to play defensive when he gets Limit and wait it out. He has 15 seconds and will try to use Limit Cross Slash or Blade Beam when times almost up. Be on the lookout for those moves and shield or otherwise avoid them.

Offstage, you need to worry about Fair chases or a Dair at the ledge. He can't chase you very far, so just try to move deep offstage and then use your jumps and recovery to make it back. Definitely don't try to use Phantom near the ledge, as he is quick enough to interrupt it. Main thing you'll want to be aware of, is Dair from a ledge jump. If you see a Cloud hanging at the ledge, he's likely waiting for you to start your recovery. You need to either Up-B past the ledge and hit him or see if you can get close enough for an Up-air, otherwise there is a high chance of a 2-frame.

When you have the advantage, Up-air will beat his Dair, so you don't have to worry about him using it to cover his landing. Mostly, you'll want to be knocking him offstage as soon as possible, because his Up-air is basically Ike's, without the height or super armor(normal version). Phantom will catch him at the ledge and instantly end things. You'll mostly want to worry about him recovering high, because his airdodge is very good. Try to make him burn it as quickly as possible with Din's Fire, then go about punishing it with Phantom or your normals. The more low of an angle you can knock him offstage at, the better. He's very heavy for his speed, so it's best if you can end things offstage.

Ok chalk this up to what I said about luigi. Personal demon and hate fighting it even if I know what to do. Maybe it's ptsd from sm4sh but I struggle getting around the aerials he has. The last time I played someone who plays Cloud I legitimately was relieved they switched to their other main...Chrom.

Stoic is definitely right with the MU, I just feel like dumb fighting Cloud. Knowing whats gonna happen and tricking myself into getting hit. I just feel its more deceptive on what actually hits and what doesn't.

Yeah the problem I have with Cloud are his aerials and those two special moves; Cross Slash and Climhazzard. It might just be the LAN lag, but unlike other fighters that hit as hard as he does, Cloud seems to have no endlag on these aerials and can space them out for free constant pressure. Zelda in particular seems to just be too slow with too little range to punish his whiffs, when my ZSS or Greninja probably could.
His UpB is especially frustrating since it's an amazing anti-air and frame 7 is really fast for a move with that much disjointed range. On top of that it has that landing shockwave hitbox so even if Zelda could get there in time, you still can't rush in and punish. Farore'ing into his landing is predictable enough to be baited out since it's like the only option.
Endlag and range is also an issue with his Blade Beam. Consensus is that the non-limit version of his sideB has punishable endlag, but Zelda just can't do much. All the hits push her away too far to OOS Farore or LK him, and it seems like the move even outranges and outlasts Nayru.
Cloud definitely seems to have the tools to be the clear aggressor in this MU, and the only place I can find respite from disadvantage is floating off stage, falling low and teleporting to the ledge. Even then it's a 50/50 since between his UpB, Dtilt and SideB, he can ledge guard pretty well.

I think people are definitely sleeping on Cloud, and it's to the point that here isn't as much of a meta developed against him like there is for say, Ike. That makes it really tough to come out even against those 5 million GSP Clouds online. Sure there's a timer on Limit now and his Nair range got nerfed, but the buffs to his aerials' landing lag and to both his SideB and UpB in neutral more than compensate for that.
It's also been frustrating trying to find videos of many top players beating Cloud since no one really plays him at a pro level and the ones that do, like Cheeks, don't lose often enough to analyze the best way to counter him with the girls I main.
This video featuring Ven's Zelda seems to be the best example I can find, but he's still seems to be having issues dealing with a lot of the issues I deal with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75nEDkZsqg0

Basically Zelda can't really fight Cloud, only the Phantom can. ...

 

[StoicPhantom]

One thing to mention is that she'll fish for a bAir at higher percents because that's her only kill move until fThrow comes into place at around 150% (I think?) at the ledge.
I honestly don't know how to avoid bAirs as I get stuffed by that move constantly but knowing what she's looking for will also help.

If you're getting stuffed by Bair, you're likely approaching when you shouldn't. There shouldn't be any reason for you to approach in this MU. If she is being overly campy, you should hop back while charging Phantom. If she starts approaching then you can unleash Phantom's overhead slash. If she continues to camp, Phantom has some pretty ridiculous reach, so use it to cover your approach. She didn't have the easiest time approaching in 4, but she really can't do it in Ultimate, so take advantage of her endlag and punish any whiffs. You should as a matter of principle constantly force her to be the one to approach and initiate attacks.

Consensus is that the non-limit version of his sideB has punishable endlag, but Zelda just can't do much. All the hits push her away too far to OOS Farore or LK him, and it seems like the move even outranges and outlasts Nayru.

Parry the final hit and you can punish with just about anything. As far as I know, the first hit is still safe on shield, so just wait and see what he does, before exiting shield(his grab can't do much).

I think people are definitely sleeping on Cloud, and it's to the point that here isn't as much of a meta developed against him like there is for say, Ike.

He's not as bad as people are/were saying, but he isn't that great either. What made him so scary in 4, wasn't just the range or speed, it was the fact he could pretty much use any aerial to space on shield. That allowed to play a lot of mind games up close and you were never sure if he was going for a tomahawk or Up-air. Up-air is no longer useful in that regard, Nair is risky to use now, Fair is somewhat telegraphed and susceptible to parries by someone that knows what they're doing in that regard. Bair is still good, but gives up stage control to do so.

Limit nerfs did hurt him pretty bad. Limit having a timer, means an opponent has a rough guide on when he is going to use it, as opposed to 4, where he could unleash it whenever he pleased. That made dealing with the instantaneous, early killing, shield breaking, Limit Cross Slash an utter nightmare and really drummed up the pressure. Said Limit Cross Slash is now a shadow of its former self and you can camp Limit now. That means it's much more difficult for Cloud to get a kill and he really has to rely on reads and edgeguards. There's a reason why the billion Cloud mains/lovers completely dropped the character.

You gotta stop falling into this react -> attack -> defend -> react mentality and learn to control the pace of neutral. That approach is only really viable if you significantly outrange and outframe your opponent. It's not a good approach for Zelda and it's honestly not good for Ultimate, even with top tiers. If you are punishing moves meant for spacing and neutral, your opponent isn't properly spacing or fast falling.

Never approach or otherwise act, unless there is imminent threat of severe punishment. Cloud's grab isn't scary, but his Bair is. Learn to prioritize which moves you can get hit with and which you can't. Sometimes it's best to get grabbed, than drop shield only to realize it was a feint. There is no need to approach Cloud. Seven minutes is a very generous time limit. You can afford to be patient and goad Cloud into attacking you. He is far less able to safely pressure shields than before. If he's pressuring your shield, carefully make small encroachments towards his spacing, while keeping that shield button handy. You'll either force him to back off or get within range that you can safely OoS. The goal here is to make him impatient and do something stupid.

You don't need to punish his aerials. Don't even try, you'll lose every time. You need to punish his spacing instead. Learn the spacing you can safely OoS and try to do what I said above. If he jumps too high in the air, you just need to get under him or shield dash into his Fair/Bair and punish him OoS. Parries are your friend vs swords. They're often single hit and linear, so learn the timings and you'll find them a lot less scary. The more you can force him to the ledge, the more aggressive and thus easier to punish he'll get.

Just be patient and don't get intimidated. He dies off stage. Like badly.

This video featuring Ven's Zelda seems to be the best example I can find, but he's still seems to be having issues dealing with a lot of the issues I deal with.

There was quite a lot of foolish mistakes on Ven's part and the set really should have ended on the second game. Even so, there is still good information to be gleaned. Notice how whenever Ven approached he got bodied? Notice how whenever he forced Cloud to approach, Cloud got bodied? Notice how whenever Ven approached there was almost never a need to do so? Like at 0:16 there was absolutely no need to approach there, for any character. Cloud had nowhere to go but up. Ven could have easily feinted forward then parried the Fair or something. You don't need to approach a Cloud or any character at the ledge, let them sweat and do a risky option. Similar story at 0:10. Ven successfully dodged the Nair, but ran straight into the very obvious Bair, trying to again beat it with dash attack. This is indicative of that mentality I mentioned and it really needs to stop, if one wants to master Zelda and Ultimate in general. Sometimes you just need to let things reset to neutral. It's better to miss a potential opportunity than it is to create one for your opponent.

I could nitpick this video all day, including 8:15, but that attempt at a preemptive dash attack is something I constantly see Zelda players do and it fails almost every single time. Anyone that has even the slightest MU knowledge, knows that Zelda will be attempting it and they will bait it nearly every time. If you are unsure of a situation, fall back while charging Phantom. You are almost guaranteed to make up the lost space and more. DO NOT leave center stage or similar advantageous position on the off chance your dash attack might not fail for the thousandth time. You have your opponent trapped, you can afford to take your time.

Overall, be patient and don't force anything. Half of Zelda neutral fails, seem to be from the Zelda player getting antsy and intentionally putting themselves in disadvantage.

 

[Downshift]

Yeah it seems like a bait and punish style, utilizing mostly parries and OOS punishes is the only way to get in on Cloud in neutral. I honestly can't land parries as easily online, especially against those laggy Clouds that forego a LAN adapter for whatever reason. :/
So I tend to primarily shield and then focus mainly on OOS options like Farore or Usmash. Nayru if I think he's too far away to get hit by anything, which is the case for Climhazzard and Cross Slash usually since they push me back while in shield. The issue is that if a Cloud is nailing the spacing on Bair and Fair over and over again, it'll eat up my shield and usually poke before I can get a punish. I should probably focus on parrying online, but I'm concerned it'll throw off my timing parrying in IRL offline matches.
It is good that Din's and Phantom kill Cloud offstage. Dropping down and using Nayru also works, but seems riskier since he can suicide you with climhazzard if you get the timing wrong.

 

[StoicPhantom]

I honestly can't land parries as easily online, especially against those laggy Clouds that forego a LAN adapter for whatever reason. :/

Cloud is pretty annoying online yeah. In this case, focus on just parrying the more slower and obvious moves like the last hits of Cross Slash or Fair and Fsmash. Nair OoS is also good at lower percents, because it can lead to follow ups and chases and should net you more than Up-smash until the higher percents. Just be aware of Cloud's spacing and make sure he is close enough to hit.

I'm not trying to pretend neutral is in any way easy, but Zelda's advantage is sooo much better. She can knock Cloud off stage relatively early, so you just need to be patient and get him over there. The hyper aggressive Clouds you normally see online, generally lack any sort of nuance to their spacing. It can be pretty easy for them to overextend on accident. Cloud being in the air in general, makes him susceptible to harder punishes, because you can knock him even higher and he has a more difficult time landing.

You just need to be patient and maximize your advantage. The more you can make it difficult for him to kill, the more he will start fishing for Fsmashes or other laggy kill moves.

The issue is that if a Cloud is nailing the spacing on Bair and Fair over and over again, it'll eat up my shield and usually poke before I can get a punish.

This is a little difficult to answer, because it really depends on how he is spacing and how much stage control you have. Pay attention to detail here. Fair has a frame 18 startup and takes a bit for the blade to fully swing down. It's not safe or easy to do from a short hop. That's why a lot of Cloud players go for the full hop. That however, can allow Zelda to run under him and Up-Tilt.

Bair is faster and safer, but requires proper spacing. Said spacing isn't likely to give any big stage control gains. If he hits shield he's either going for another one or he's going to turn around and go with Fair, ground attacks. Pay attention to the spacing of his blade. If he's spacing around the tip, he's safe and you shouldn't approach or attempt to punish. If he spaces at the middle of the blade, that is not safe. It will be safe on the first hit, but any follow ups will be unsafe. He will either have to quickly do an attack and hope you don't keep shielding or roll away. He could opt for a turnaround grab, but not only is that difficult to do quickly, it's a big punish if he messes up or you spot-dodge. Either way, you are gaining more stage control.

There's too many variables to get into, but the important thing to do, is pay attention to these details and act accordingly. Sometimes quickly shield dashing forward a little, can completely break his spacing and cause him to aerial into your shield or overshoot and land behind you. Both will give you a punish opportunity. Running back can cause him to land a Fair in front of you and open up a punish. He can only DI so much, so if you see him starting up a Fair and you have plenty of stage behind go for it and see if he chases you. You can easily dash back and try another option if you think he's going to back off.

This is why it's important to understand both parties' options and stage control. What you have available will dictate what you can do to counter. Keep in mind how much space you have to work with and focus on gaining more space, rather than punishing, if you are lacking stage control. If Cloud has you pushed back to the ledge and you see an opportunity to slip under an attack do so and make it back to the center. If you see an opening, but it won't net much damage or follow ups and isn't a guarantee, but will give you more stage control, go for the stage control. The more space you have to work with, the more you can fall back and let your shield replenish.

Fighting swordies is fighting a battle of space. Most of them are only superficially fast, they still have to pay attention to proper spacing. The less space you can give them to work with, relative to the amount of space you can work with, the better. Too far and you can outrange them with Phantom. Too close and you can outframe/OoS them. Always keep them off their game, by constantly messing with their spacing. The less of a "box" you can give them, the more prone to spacing mistakes they'll make.

Zelda is very good in this game, not because of superior frame data or speed, but because her options and advantage remain consistent through all the MUs. There are a few MUs that can take away Phantom and limit her options, but her advantage is still strong. She can exploit any disadvantage, now matter how good. All you need to do is survive neutral until that happens. All characters, no matter how heavy, are going to be knocked off stage early. Take advantage of this and continue racking up as much damage as possible in advantage, to make up for disadvantage and neutral. There are few characters that are a threat at every percent like Zelda is.

 

[Downshift]

There's too many variables to get into, but the important thing to do, is pay attention to these details and act accordingly. Sometimes quickly shield dashing forward a little, can completely break his spacing and cause him to aerial into your shield or overshoot and land behind you. Both will give you a punish opportunity. Running back can cause him to land a Fair in front of you and open up a punish. He can only DI so much, so if you see him starting up a Fair and you have plenty of stage behind go for it and see if he chases you. You can easily dash back and try another option if you think he's going to back off.

This is why it's important to understand both parties' options and stage control. What you have available will dictate what you can do to counter. Keep in mind how much space you have to work with and focus on gaining more space, rather than punishing, if you are lacking stage control. If Cloud has you pushed back to the ledge and you see an opportunity to slip under an attack do so and make it back to the center. If you see an opening, but it won't net much damage or follow ups and isn't a guarantee, but will give you more stage control, go for the stage control. The more space you have to work with, the more you can fall back and let your shield replenish.

Yeah this is probably what I should focus on the most.
I tend to give up a lot of stage control by falling back and trying to set up for punishes. This ends with me being pushed to the edge, with no shield and no room to setup Phantom. Then I then get one dimensional trying to rely on Nayru, which is then easily predicted and punished.
I always assume Zelda isn't fast enough to dash under Cloud's aerials, since she's not as fast on the ground as Palu, ZSS or even Samus, but she does have an above average initial dash speed which is really what you need to quickly dash forward to throw off spacing.