Let's talk matchups

Nintendan

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Sep 9, 2011
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#1
Thought I'd get a thread going for this and I think it might help a lot of us if we're all talking about how to deal with certain characters or situations.

I've been having a tough time vs (surprise surprise) aggressive sword characters, :ultike: Ike, :ultlucina: Lucina, :ultchrom: Chrom etc.. They're super fast and just put on a ton of pressure while remain super safe. There's not a lot you can really do at their ideal spacing ranges and while Nayru's helps when they're crossing you up during aerials, they can still hit you pretty easily if you whiff it (or they just space something like a fair properly), and getting back to stage from the ledge is an absolute nightmare. For me, it's definitely not just the matchups, I really need to mix up my options from the ledge, but Zelda doesn't feel like she has an awful lot of strong options when she is on the ledge.

:ultinkling: Inkling too for pretty much the same reasons, except their range is of course a lot less so you have a little more breathing room in that regard. They still very much control the flow of the game though, at least during my games.

Some strong :ultness: Ness players have also been destroying me. His attacks are disjointed and pretty stronk, especially ones like fair, bair and dash attack. I am definitely not exploiting his slow recovery enough though. Phantom is definitely much safer in this matchup. I think I am just not properly respecting his options enough.

Most of this stuff is more to do with my lack of solid fundamentals more than the matchups I'd say (though fast sword characters are awful to play against for sure), but I still think it's worth bringing these things up because we can discuss a lot of safer/better options here.

Let's get talking gorls!
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
408
#2
Thought I'd get a thread going for this and I think it might help a lot of us if we're all talking about how to deal with certain characters or situations.

I've been having a tough time vs (surprise surprise) aggressive sword characters, :ultike: Ike, :ultlucina: Lucina, :ultchrom: Chrom etc..
:ultike:
Has less speed in exchange for range, compared to the other FE characters. Is heavy and has fairly decent air speed. Recovery isn't great, but side B can be somewhat difficult to intercept or punish.

Range is a problem, but can be gotten around with careful play and being cautious. His overall playstyle hasn't changed much from Smash 4, so the same general strategies can still apply, I think. Ike tends to need to be in the air in order to take full advantage of his range, so timing Phantom strikes to catch his landing, forces a retreat or air-dodge. Once Ike is hit, he is very easily juggled, so keep him in the air and moving towards the ledge. Watch out for Bair, as it's by far his most dangerous aerial. Don't try to come up behind him on a platform, when he is in the air, lest you want to die early. Keep him off stage and pressure any landings, and eventually you will land what you need to. Just be patient and don't do anything stupid and you should be able to outspace him.

:ultlucina:
Well balanced and is so basic, it is actually difficult for the player to make a mistake. As such, is very good at everything she needs to be and Zelda won't be getting on stage, with a good player behind the wheel. Tilts far outrange anything Zelda has and you should never try to approach from the air or challenge off stage. Avoid any platform fighting as you will lose to all her wide sweeping hitboxs and will be juggled mercilessly. Try to keep on the ground and punish any aerial approaches with Phantom and OoS options. Unlike the others, Lucina's Dair is actually really good and safe for covering her landing, so watch for that and space around the hitbox. Like Ike, off stage is where you want her, as her recovery is also fairly linear. Keep her off stage and as close to the ledge as possible or she will outspace you. Do not get offstage or you likely aren't coming back. I don't have much to say, this is quite possibly Zelda's worst MU or at least one of the worst.

:ultchrom:
Sacrifices range in exchange for speed. Relatively even MU. Chrom juggles Zelda endlessly and Fsmash can KO at 40, but sour-spot Din's Fire near the ledge, is all it can take to end Chrom's recovery. Chrom will avoid off stage at all costs, so take advantage of that and continue juggling him, as he tries to DI away from the ledge. Like Ike keep him in the air and off stage and don't be intimidated by his speed. FE characters not having projectiles, means once you have successfully spaced them, Phantom does a good job of making their approach difficult. Keep forcing him to overextend and never miss an opportunity to edgeguard. Phantom off stage works fairly well in insuring he doesn't come back. This MU is pretty much decided on the first hit, so be cautious and don't do anything risky.

Flat stages seems to work better, against sword characters that don't have projectiles. It is very easy to force them in the air and punish all landing attempts. Up-Tilt is pretty good for spacing wars, provided that you avoid the brunt of the hitboxs. FE characters generally have long sweeping hitboxs, so try to squeeze in the space between sweeps. Up-Tilt does the same, so try starting it up as they are passing near and have the end, hit them when their hitbox is swinging to the other side.

:ultinkling:
Is very fast, likely has the best dash, and has very weird and wonky hitboxs, making it difficult to actually catch Inkling. Inklings tend to be on the aggressive side, from my experience, so the usual Zelda defensive shenanigans apply. When that doesn't work, they tend to try to bait an approach or attack, so be cautious and move up on any space they give. Up-Tilt is good for anti-air, provided it's not Bair which should be avoided instead. If they move back to throw a grenade or charge their ink, Up-B works well as a punish and sets up an edgeguard. Watch out for roller, especially as a landing punish or recovery tool.

Roller can be shielded and Up-B OoS punished or spaced with Fsmash or aerials. Edgeguarding is pretty tricky, as Inkling has a very fast and good recovery, if a bit linear. If Inkling is above the stage, Phantom and Din's Fire work very well and if they try to recover high, harass them with Up-air. Otherwise if you are confident in your spiking ability try that, Nayru's Love is ok as a edgeguard, but will likely just rack percent. Be patient and don't let Inkling bait you into doing something stupid. They can't KO very well, so you might win, through a war of attrition.

:ultness:
Is a bit of a monster and has always been a personal demon of mine. He retains nearly all of what made him good in Smash 4 and seems to have been buffed. Huge disjoints, insane mobility, little endlag, perhaps the most annoying projectile in Smash, and both a reflector and absorber. Ness has everything he needs to make Zelda's life hard. Stay on the ground don't try to challenge him in the air, or have fun getting juggled, possibly to the blast zone. Fsmash is both powerful and can easily reflect Phantom, so don't use it when he is on the ground. Instead, save Phantom for when he is in the air. Let him come to you and try to punish any openings you see.

Fair is what he'll likely use if he is approaching from the air, so be ready and dash back or shield if you have no room. If he is on the ground, he doesn't have a lot of approach options and is likely going to PK Fire. Reflect that and Fair or juggle from there. Do not shield, when in dash grab range as back throw is still stupidly powerful. Try to keep Ness above you and keep juggling him, since his fall speed isn't the best. Off stage depends on timing, but don't try to Din's Fire as he can just absorb it. Instead be ready to go offstage and Phantom him or spike. If you can't make it before he starts his Up-B don't bother and instead setup a ledge trap, or you better be confident in your teching.



I have plenty more to say on other MUs, but rather than fill this thread with my ramblings, I think I'll wait and see what others have to say first and when I can think a little better.
 
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#3
:ultness:
I have an easy time with him, but that is less about the character and more about me being a very hardcore Ness main in Smash 4. Ness players have a lot of body language that communicates when and how they're going to approach and when they're going to use PSI Fire. From my experience, Ness gets punished really hard by our OoS options (Lightning Kicks, up-b), so that you can train them to opt for grabs, which are beaten by our 4-frame jab. PSI Fire (true Ness players consume Earthbound like food) is easily parried and punished. Take him to a flat stage where he cannot platform camp, and it's a decent matchup. Since previous posters have mentioned not using Phantom in neutral against him, I'll mention that too. USE IT IN NEUTRAL. If he's trying to reflect it, it means that you get a completely free approach. If he wants to bat it back, you get the punish. If he reacts to your approach, then he has to challenge (in which case Phantom has your back) or back off (in which case you now have center stage).


:ultrichter::ultsimon:
Now THIS is where I need help.

This matchup is SO annoying. I'll start with the good part. Belmont can NEVER use Axe (neutral-b) if you are within Farore's distance. The endlag is so great that you get a perfectly free up-b punish that he can do nothing about. You don't even need to get a read on it; just react decently quickly and it's guaranteed. Okay, now for the bad. Once the Belmont realizes that axe is unsafe, you have no tools to threaten him. Cross goes through Phantom and hits you from an FD away, same with Din's. Reflecting it doesn't work as he can move in and easily punish Nayru's. Cross is too quick to punish with up-b like you can with axes. If you get up close and you are on a stage with platforms, he can just up-b OoS and either hit you, or land on top platform and reset to neutral. I cannot for the life of me pressure him or get anything going. I hope that you all have some sort of fantastic tech that helps the matchup, because I need it.
 

StoicPhantom

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#4
:ultness:
Since previous posters have mentioned not using Phantom in neutral against him, I'll mention that too. USE IT IN NEUTRAL. If he's trying to reflect it, it means that you get a completely free approach. If he wants to bat it back, you get the punish. If he reacts to your approach, then he has to challenge (in which case Phantom has your back) or back off (in which case you now have center stage).
Unless you are referring elsewhere, I don't think anyone here, meant to imply not using Phantom in neutral. If you are talking about my post, I said to use it while he is in the air. Fully charged is a different story, but I was trying to keep things general.

I play a lot of Richter and he is probably my second best character. They are a lot of fun, but have some pretty big flaws that stop them from being great. Half of their success feels like it's from sheer intimidation, so don't get intimidated. All of their attacks are fairly linear, meaning with careful spacing and DI, you can squeeze through the gaps between. Cross can simply be hopped over and then you can harass them up close. Be ready to reflect it on it's return and you can often reflect it into them if they try to escape or attack. You have two jumps and the ability to fast fall, so use those to maneuver around any projectile or whip spam.

They are a spacing character similar to Zelda, and share almost all of Zelda's flaws, while not having a lot of the options she has to work around them. They have lots of range, but no real get off me or close range tools. Nair, D-Tilt, dash attack, and Up-B are the only real escape or get off tools they really have. Nair has little range and requires them to DI into you and D-Tilt and dash attack are linear and can be shielded. Up-B has little range and is not safe, so can be baited with a dash dance, if they are using it frequently.

Once you get in on them, it is very difficult for them to escape and like Zelda, are very easily juggled with no real landing tools. Fair/Bair can be angled, but only so much, so try to stay directly under them and continue juggling, while watching for Dair. Anytime they are in the air, as long as you are not in range of their aerials, is a safe time to charge Phantom. Holy Water is the only projectile that can really be used and is rather limited. So long as you continue to press the attack and not give them any space, most Belmont players crumble pretty quickly.

Their off stage game is really terrible and they can be gimped with little effort. Always hit them, with whatever you can, while watching for a suicide Fair, that tries to take you down with them. If they manage to tether recover, stay back and trap them at the ledge. They have just as difficult of a time getting back on stage as Zelda.

Don't be intimidated in the neutral and in your disadvantage. Their projectiles can't be angled and will always travel in the same arc or direction. As such, the only way they can space with them is moving their body, so watch for them jumping or moving forward or back a little. The Belmonts are looking for a panic option. so keep calm and evaluate all the options you currently can take. Many people make the mistake of recovering high, thinking they can use their DJ to avoid the Axe. What they don't realize is a good projectile player, is aiming where they are going to be, not where they are currently at. You will get nailed, so instead try recovering low, where there is more options.

Get familiar with the arcs and range, and use that to judge where the projectile is going to be. Once you do that, you will realize there are major gaps in their spacing and you can move accordingly. Their whips operate on the same principle, so as long as you are always or above or below them, you won't be hit and can punish. Their KO power is very bad, so watch for the big ones like Fsmash and Dsmash and even with Zelda, you can live a long time. If you don't do anything foolish, then the only way to KO early, is comboing from Holy Water. Watch for that and SDI as quick as you can, if you get caught.

Belmont vs Zelda is largely going to be a spacing war and Zelda has the superior options. Both characters have similar weaknesses, but the Belmonts have more exaggeration. Zelda hits their weaknesses hard, being a good close range fighter and an impeccable edgeguarder. You should only need to win neutral a few times per stock.
 

Deldepth

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#5
Hi Zelda experts, this is a very interesting thread, thanks for the write-ups so far.

I'm having trouble vs. these guys: :ultfox::ultfalco::ultfalcon: Always dashing into my face and juggling me with their fast movement, and making safe landing difficult. I rely too heavily on Nayru's Love and they quickly learn to punish it. What's your plan when you face them?
 

StoicPhantom

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#6
Hi Zelda experts, this is a very interesting thread, thanks for the write-ups so far.

I'm having trouble vs. these guys: :ultfox::ultfalco::ultfalcon: Always dashing into my face and juggling me with their fast movement, and making safe landing difficult. I rely too heavily on Nayru's Love and they quickly learn to punish it. What's your plan when you face them?
That's kind of difficult to answer, as I haven't figured out any real strategies other than outplaying them. I'll try to answer to the best of my ability, though.



:ultfox:

Pay close attention to their DI at all times. Fox wants to Nair, as it seems to be his main combo starter and possibly one of his safest approach options. Fox's Nair has a hitbox all around his body, from what I can tell. That might not seem like much at first, but it means that he can DI around a lot of spacing options and all he needs is a graze, to get something going. If for example you try to Nayru's Love, he can space Nair so that he drops at the thinnest part at the top and hit your head when the invincibility is gone. He can apply that principle to other moves as well and with his insane mobility, can beat out a lot of Zelda's laggy startups and combo her into oblivion.

As such, you need to pay close attention to the distance between you and how he DIs. If he is DIing forward, he is probably trying to approach with Nair. Rather than trying to space a counterattack, dash back instead and if he commits you can Fsmash or Up-tilt as a punish. If he is any good, he is only going to approach when he thinks he can beat out your attacks, so giving yourself some space is necessary to properly avoid and punish. If he is DIing back, he is probably trying to bait an approach. Do not attempt to, he will win every time. Instead, try to fully charge Phantom and if he tries to use his reflector, Up-B into it and you should be able to combo into the Phantom slash and knock him off stage for an edgeguard. Make sure you space Phantom in a way that you will have time to release an overhead slash, in case he tries to punish.

Otherwise, his options aren't too great. Don't get above him, as that's where his most potent options are. If that happens, DI quickly to the ledge, it is easier to get back on stage than try to get out of his juggles. Never land on stage or be prepared to eat an Up-smash. Watch for dash attack and Up-smash and you won't have to worry too much about him on the ground. Off stage is where he is most vulnerable, so don't miss a chance to edgeguard. He's not too different than he was in Smash 4, so if you played that the strategies are similar.


:ultfalco:

Falco isn't a MU, I have too much experience in. Mostly they seem to like to fast fall their aerials, so spacing Up-Tilt is going to be necessary. Like Fox approach isn't their strong suit, so likely will intimidate with their aerials. He seems to like to lead with Dair most of the time, so move to the side, as it's priority is fairly high. Watch for the occasional Fair, if he is off to the side. He's fast, but not that fast and if you are patient, you can find openings to squeeze in a dash attack, now and then. Like Fox, he will often try to bait an approach, so don't fall for it and definitely don't try to fight him in the air. A quick Nair, is ok to do, when he is trying to jump back in the air, but don't try to chase him.

His KO options are rather poor, so be on the lookout for Bair and his smash attacks. His smash attacks are quick and lagless, but lack any real range, so watch for them when he is close. Fsmash seems to be the smash of choice, given it's decent range, so be ready to shield or parry. If you successfully parry, Fair/Bair OoS is a very good punish. Properly timed dash dance, can give you enough time to punish his smash attempts.

Otherwise, the strategies against him are similar to Fox. Off stage is bad, so don't miss an edgeguard. Falco seems to like to Side-B on stage, so be ready to punish that, but otherwise the same weaknesses apply. If he tries to camp with his laser, either reflect it or hop over them. Don't do it too close, as he has enough time to punish, even on successful reflection.


:ultfalcon:

He plays pretty much like he did in Smash 4, minus the dash grab, so the same strategies will apply in most cases. All of his moves are pretty much lagless now, so rather than trying to punish the endlag, punish the long lasting hitboxs instead. Falcon lacks disjoints, so properly spacing Zelda's disjoints will beat out his attacks. Like the others, he lacks good approach options, and will try to intimidate and confuse you with his speed. Keep in mind you are the final target, so all of his attacks will come to you eventually. As such, you can predict where he will go and be waiting with a suitable punish.

Same DI principles will apply. If he is DIing towards you, space a disjoint to stop his attack. If he DIs away he is baiting an approach. Unlike the others, Falcon has some risk and doesn't have good all purpose aerials. If he is approaching with his back to you, he is likely going to Bair, which is his main approach or bait aerial. Bair has little range, so you have time to ascertain whether he is committing or is pulling back to bait. If he commits, shield and you should be able to OoS shield punish him. If he pulls back, don't chase him, instead be ready to charge a Phantom if he hops away.

If he is facing toward you and is fast falling, expect a Fair(knee) and shield. Falcons generally don't seem to like to Nair, unless they are jumping from the ground. If he is above you and is fast falling, expect a Dair and shield. Once you have his aerial spacing memorized, he doesn't have much else left. Watch for his Falcon Kick on the ground or his Side-B and he doesn't have much left to approach with.

One thing you do need to be aware of, that is different from before, is his Up-B. It is an actual KO option now and it is a very fast and good one. If you get knocked above him and are close the blast zone, fast fall immediately and DI away. Don't bother trying to charge Phantom off stage, he will Up-B faster than you can release it and it will KO Zelda stupid early. Instead, recover low and watch for any aggressive spike attempts. You can hang around for a long time, so don't rush straight into a Dair.

Otherwise, he has the same weaknesses as the others. Juggle him endlessly and don't miss an edgeguard attempt. He is huge and easily trapped and combo'd, so use Phantom and Up-air to their fullest effect.


You just need to not be intimidated by their speed. They play very similar to how they did in 4, they are just much faster now. They still have the same weaknesses and they still lack range and diversity in their moveset. They need to be close to you to actually hit you and as such, they have a very linear path of attack. They will either move straight to you or back off and hope you chase them. That is basically a 50-50 and if you are patient, they will eventually have to come to you.
 

Deldepth

Smash Rookie
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Jan 9, 2019
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#7
Kill them with magic, got it! Thanks for going into such detail, it's helpful info. I'll try to be more patient vs those characters on-stage and more avoidant when landing from above.
 

StoicPhantom

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#9
Any tips against Cloud. I have a lot of trouble under disadvantage and dealing with his range in general.
Patience, mostly. Cloud has a lot of speed and range, but there are only specific moves he uses to space. Try to parry Fair and Dair. These generally last long enough to punish with an OoS option, of which Zelda probably has some of the best. Otherwise, be patient and watch for any openings. Sword characters by and large can be shutdown with OoS stuff, but Cloud's mobility can kind of make things difficult.

You'll mostly want to play a punish game, so try to keep him in disadvantage, which means in the air and offstage. Up-air can challenge his Dair and if you space it to the side just enough, you can avoid his hitbox and still land Up-air. It will still trade, properly timed. Up-Tilt can do the same, just be sure the start-up(in front) is away from the Dair hitbox and time it so that it arcs into his hurtbox.

On the ground he has the advantage, so don't be too aggressive and play defensive. If he camps, use Phantom to get him moving and Nayru's Love can reflect his projectile. His Smash attacks are very fast this time around, so don't do anything risky or stupid and don't let him bait you into trying to punish anything but Fsmash. His Dsmash is virtually lagless and Up-smash isn't very easy to punish, unless you are directly behind him. Fsmash is not safe on shield, but is also fairly quick for it's power, so don't try to challenge it in the neutral and watch for it trying to catch air-dodges and landings. Watch for D-Tilt, if his outside of his sword's range and F-Tilt if you are near the ledge or at high percents. Don't bother trying to punish D-Tilt, he tends to buffer an aerial. Instead try to charge a Phantom and catch his landing.

Limit has a time limit now, so don't be afraid to camp it. Watch for him using Limit Blade Beam or Limit Cross Slash, when its time limit is almost up. Limit Cross Slash has been nerfed, but Limit Blade Beam is actually a decent KO option now, so be careful, especially offstage.

You'll want your goal to be getting him offstage. He completely outclasses Zelda in the neutral, so use those few openings to send him offstage. Zelda has good edgeguarding tools and Cloud is still bad offstage. If he tries to recover high, force him to burn his jumps and then air-dodge, with a combination of Phantom and Din's Fire. He will try to air-dodge on stage if you catch him there, so don't let him air-dodge through you. Din's has low enough endlag, that you should be able to punish any air-dodges he does.

If he has to recover low, then just about anything will do him in. Fully charged Phantom can hit under the ledge and catch him there. If he is at low percent, running offstage and hitting him from behind with Nayru's Love can combo into the Phantom's slash. If you don't have time to setup Phantom, Nayru's Love can still be a good edgeguard. If you hit with the upper sides between the points, it will stage spike him diagonally and usually end him there. It's tricky, but hitting him with the bottom point can soft spike. Dair will trade, but the timing can be a little difficult.

If he gets you in disadvantage, don't panic and try to make it back to the ground or go offstage and recover to the ledge. He has difficulty KOing, so as long as you avoid his Smash attacks or spikes or Limit Specials, you can live for quite a long time. It's better to take a lot of damage, than to do a panic move into one of his KO options. Fsmash is the main one to watch out for, as his other smashes, while quick, aren't as powerful. Fair can combo into itself for a spike, so don't get hit with that near the ledge and don't try to recover high.

Basically, you'll just want to play this MU defensively and try to keep him in the air or offstage and then edgeguard him. He'll live quite a long time otherwise and he outplays Zelda in the neutral.
 
D

Deleted member

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#11
Pray to the gods, or just SD and rematch. A good Snake is a nightmare for anyone, especially Zelda. He outzones you, so you can't play defensively, and Zelda's aggressive game is really weak if she doesn't have time to set things up. A lot good of Snakes are also too smart to chase you down with their normals, and will instead pressure you with grenades, forcing an approach, where a world of hurt awaits between Bombs, Mines, and etc...

Nayru will help a lot, but the heavy recovery on that move is gonna make it easy for him to punish you if you **** up. You can try sniping him with Farore, but eventually, he's gonna start baiting you out, and you're gonna regret that. Since he's gonna likely camp with grenades. Try Phantom set ups, to force him to act, be it Jump, Shield, or etc... and see what you can do. Going for a Grab on a Phantom Set Up is generally a good option.

It also doesn't help that Snake still has a lot of his old disjoints. Imo, he's one of, if not THE best character in the game currently. He's crazy strong, but hard to use. One thing you can do, perhaps, is try and exploit the fact that Snake players will try to be reckless with the damage they take, to get more breathing room as he starts to rack up more. That said, it's still gonna be an uphill battle no matter what. Snake, and characters with disjoints like Chrom and Cloud are a nightmare for Zelda. At least with swordies though, she has more of a chance to use Nayru defensively for extra damage and to create space. That's not much of an option against Snake though.

Try looking for Snake players and just practice against them as much as you can really. He's a tough one for pretty much everyone though. I struggle against him too.
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
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#12
Advice against Snake?
I'll add on to what was already and say that keeping on the pressure and sticking to him, once you get past his wall, will make things difficult for him. It takes some setup for him to properly zone, so if you can keep on him, you can fluster him and force him into bad positions. Nikita is like half of his success and Farore's Wind will punish any attempts. He can cancel it, but if you are quick enough, you should be able to catch the endlag. Grenades can be hopped over and you can use Nayru's Love and Zelda's own disjoints, to stuff any aerials he attempts. Make note of any c4 he lays, that will be what he tries to guide you into. If you work backwards from that line of thinking, you can predict what he will try to use to do so.

His dash attack has intangibility, so be careful charging Phantom within it's range, as he can go right through even an active Phantom and hit Zelda. His normals are good, but can't beat Zelda's disjoints, so watch for dash attack and grab on the ground and punish any aerials with Nair, Up-Tilt, and Up-air. Up-B OoS can work well on any misspaced dash attacks or Bairs and can be used to punish any attempts to trap you in it, on his projectiles.

He doesn't have any good landing options, outside of c4, so watch for any c4 drops and avoid them, then use Up-air's heavy disjoint to beat out any others. His recovery his very bad and can be spiked with Dair and Nayru's Love. Dair with its intangibility, can directly spike him through the drone and Nayru's Love can destroy the drone itself and send him into special fall. Get good at using those and this MU will become significantly easier. You should be able to, with the proper timing, spike his c4 recovery attempts as well.

You basically just want to keep outside of his close range moves, but close enough that he can't setup his projectiles safely. Outside of dash attack and dash grab, his ground moves are fairly short and his aerials aren't well suited to hit you on the ground. You can outrange any of those with Zelda's ground moves or shield his quicker aerials, then punish with her OoS options. Watch for him using dash attack or dash grab, and observe any trends in which one he uses more frequently.

The more you punish his projectiles and pressure, the more hesitant and defensive they start to play. When that happens, you can start using more Phantom stuff and start grabbing his shields. The grenades take a while to explode and if he tries to hold them, you can punish with a surprise FW. Ignore the grenades and simply avoid them, punish his missiles with FW, and pay attention to where he plants c4 and you won't have to worry too much about anything else of his. Just try to hit him up in the air or offstage and use his terrible disadvantage against him.

Once you shutdown his mobility and force him to start playing defensive and shield, you've basically won neutral and can just hit him offstage and edgeguard. The key here is not to get flustered and start playing defensive, that's what zoners want you to do. Like any other zoner, he isn't good up close, so keep on him and don't let him scare you into turtle mode. Zelda perhaps a bit unfairly, does get good close range options, despite her zoning capabilities, so use those to your advantage when fighting Snake up close.

Edit:Forgot to add, he lacks KO power, if he can't edgeguard and if you don't fall for c4 traps. With FW nullifying Nikita, he only has Up-Tilt and c4 as his most potent KO options. So long as you don't forget the c4 and don't try to challenge him from above, you can live for a long time. If you are having trouble safely landing, go to the ledge, there isn't a whole he can do in terms of ledge trapping or edgeguarding Zelda.
 
Last edited:

Dcas

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#13
Advice against Snake?
I think Zelda is very good vs zoners, you just approach slowly timing well your nayrus love and obviously making him approach too, when you find the time make sure to set out your phantom. When recovering, go for dins fire and start conditioning him with up air, snake has a very hard time landing vs zelda.

The key is being patient and making him approach you, zelda has the tools to neutralize most zoners.

Talking about MU, i think there are some bad MU which ill talk about, besides those i think most of the cast is doable.

:ultfox:: I think fox is very hard, must be played extremely safe and patient in the neutral. Once is offstage, you can destroy him. But it is doable as long as you play super safe.

:ultmarth::ultlucina::ultchrom::ultroy::ultshulk:: Even tho they are all different, i think zelda struggles a lot vs swordies, they outrange you, outspeed you and can get in your face pretty safe, even more if it is chrom or roy. For them i usually change character since i find it too much of a struggle.

Shulk is a nightmare as well.

:ultsonic:: His speed and his playstyle (bait and punish) are extremely difficult to be dealt with. He can get in zeldas face very quick, as zelda one can expect the match to be pretty long since we gotta be very precise on our timings if we want to avoid a punish, using the phantom, aerials safely, din fire, etc. This MU is doable but must be played very patiently.

:ultgreninja:: As for now, i think zelda struggle vs fast characters and even more those that outrange you. Greninja got both of those attributes and could easily be one of zeldas hardest MU. Once greninja gets into your face it might be hard to get off the constant pressure, edgeguarding him is possible obviously not as free as fox, just like sonic and fox, one must play extremely safe and be prepared for a long match, if you try to play the same pace as greninja, youll end up losing.

:ultpit::ultdarkpit:: Even tho they lack the speed, they outrange every single move you do, and most of his atacks are very safe vs zelda. The good thing is they cant really get in your face easily but a good pit will try to force you approach and might get a litttle bit hard, a MU that has to be played patiently as well. Timing the phantoms and mixing it up are key so he cant reflect your stuff.

:ultyoshi:: dealing with a good yoshi is very hard, theyll win most trades and he has a good mobility to keep you with constant pressure, one must play really grounded or juggling him, since yoshi has a hard time landing overall. Getting him in the air or offstage are key to win vs him, the neutral is kinda even but yoshi can get you in a disadvantage state pretty quickly.

Besides those characters i think most of the MU i think zelda does pretty good against most of the cast, the key thing is to change drastically according to the MU or even better to have another character that can cover those bad matchups.
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
408
#15
Guys how do we deal with :ultmewtwo:? Against friends and randos I seem to struggle with this matchup
I'm rather late with this, sorry. Hopefully you're still interested. I don't have too many helpful things to say on this one, unfortunately. I feel like Mewtwo is a contender for Zelda's worst MU and with his moveset, it's difficult to piece together a good strategy.

He pretty much outspeeds and outranges us in most cases. He lacks disjoints in some moves, but they are fast enough, it's hard to time Zelda's own. Despite initial appearances, Mewtwo probably works best with a punish game. A lot of his attacks are quick and act as good pokes, but he can't afford to be too aggressive, since they require precision and aren't as safe as they appear.

Don't try to challenge him too much on the ground, as he outranges and outspeeds us, pretty easily. Rather, try to force him in the air, by carefully inching him closer to the ledge, without overextending yourself. His Tilts are fast and have good range, but lack disjoints, so if you can keep intimidating him with careful spacing of Zelda's own disjoints, you can hopefully force him near the ledge, where he will have to take to the air.

This may seem a little strange, given how good he seems in the air, but it is actually a double-edged sword. He is a little slow and very floaty, with a huge hurtbox, so can be susceptible to juggles and have difficulty landing. If he is pressured, he will often need to use his Up-B to teleport onto the stage. This leads to a battle of mind games, that you will need to overcome and win. Try to limit as much safe space on the stage as possible, and force him into a risky landing. If you are too far away to punish, but know where he is going to land, Up-B can be a good punish.

Don't be baited into overextending, trying to hit him. He has very quick moves and a very good roll and air-dodge. Trying to chase him, will make it easier for him to play a punish game, since he is similar to Zelda and will try to bait you into approaching. Rather, try to play a spacing game and keep the space he has to move in, limited. Most of his attacks, will likely be feints to get you to chase after him, so don't take the bait and watch for any misspaces on shield, that you can punish with OoS options.

His KO options, aren't exactly easy for him to hit and often require him to be up close or commit pretty hard. Avoid challenging him from the air or landing in a way, that allows him to catch it with Up-Smash. So long as you avoid fighting up close on the ground too much, he won't easily be able to hit you with his other smashes. That only leaves Fair and his Up-throw that can realistically hit Zelda. Fair has a small hitbox and isn't safe on whiff, if he commits to a charge, so he will normally use it to bait, then quickly throw out a second one to punish. His dash grab is pretty good, so don't sit in shield too long, especially around 130-150, since that will usually be where he can KO with Up-throw.

Phantom unfortunately, won't be too useful in this MU. His reflector is such, that it allows him to pretty freely use it, at any point and isn't so easily baited like the Star Fox crew's reflectors. If he does it too early, you might be able to Up-B punish it, if the Phantom is fully charged and not tethered to you, but I have a feeling smart Mewtwos will have better strategies against Phantom. Be careful charging Phantom, his dash attack is very quick and heavily disjointed, so it will go straight through Phantom and hit Zelda, if she is too close.

You're mostly going to have to keep him in the air and offstage with this one. Play against him, how you would play against Zelda and keep him off the stage for as long as possible and use his lightweight against him. He has a better neutral, but Zelda has stronger KO options, so this will likely come down to whether he can successfully bait you or whether you can tag him. Up-air his powerful, has a huge disjoint and hitbox and should at least trade with his Dair, so use that to hit him in the air. It won't take much to KO him, so be patient and wait for those opportunities.

Edgeguarding him is pretty difficult and I'm not sure we really can. It might be best to just pressure him with Din's Fire and then setup ledge traps and pressure his ledge getup. Just make sure he doesn't make it back for free, in all cases. The more damage you can give, the better, since it will allow you take full advantage of the few openings you can exploit and make the most of them, by getting early KOs.
 
D

Deleted member

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#16
Someone was asking how to deal with Snake as Zelda. This match between Ven and MVD is a good display for how you should handle the match:


It should be noted that stage selection matters a ****ton based on who you're fighting. For example, Zelda generally does really well on Battlefield, unless she's fighting a sword-user like Chrom, Roy, or Cloud, then you wanna go for something more like FD, where you limit their options of engagement into much more linear and predictable paths. All in all though, I'd say Pokemon Stadium, Town and City, Smashville, and Battlefield are her best stages, unless you're fighting a sword user with good aerials, then FD should be your goto stage.

I think her worst matchup thus far, I think is Ness. Which is ironic too, cause I think out of everyone, she does the best against Ness cause she can use Phantom offstage to anti-edgeguard him, meaning he can't use his gimmicky Yo-Yo tricks to edgeguard as well. Also, Nayru totally negates PK Fire, and despite that Ness is STILL really tough to deal with as Zelda. You should be watching all of Ven's matches though, I think he might be the best Zelda player in the world atm, I really like the way he plays her, so observing the way he plays will be a good way to improve your game.
 

SummonerBWM

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 19, 2019
Messages
4
#17
Dealing with Yoshi and DK are the worse. I lost matches against DK players and fighting against a Snake is also terrible. Fighting against a King K. Rool is also ridiculous because if I reflect his cannonball, he can reflect it right back and it hits harder and faster, which comes down to who will get hit first if his attack kept getting reflected. The only heavy fighter I do not have a problem with is Ganondork.
 
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Zairith

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Mar 25, 2019
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Cincinnati, Ohio
#18
Does anyone have any advice for the :ultbowser:matchup? I feel like he's always in my face and kills me stupid early. I also feel trapped at ledge. If I jump i get faired and if i roll or neutral getup I get downsmashed or f-smashed.
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
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Dec 11, 2018
Messages
408
#19
Does anyone have any advice for the :ultbowser:matchup? I feel like he's always in my face and kills me stupid early. I also feel trapped at ledge. If I jump i get faired and if i roll or neutral getup I get downsmashed or f-smashed.
His speed may have improved, but I think he still wants to bait and punish like before. He doesn't have good approach tools and is rather huge. So use Phantom to force his to approach and use Zelda's speed and disjoints to punish. He doesn't have any real landing options, so if he approaches from the air, simply running under and Up-Tilting will put him in a juggle. If he tries to use Fair as an approach, shield and use Zelda's good OoS options to punish(Nair, Up-air, Up-B).

If tries approaching from the ground, you can either preempt with Phantom or guess whether he is going to dash grab or dash attack. Basically, you want to beat him at his own game.

Since his ground options are poor for approaching, he'll often try to approach from the air. Up-Tilt and Nair OoS is good for putting him in a juggle, Up-B and Fair OoS are good for knocking him offstage. His disadvantage is poor, so keeping him in the air and offstage is key to winning this MU. Up-air with the proper timing, will beat all of his landing options, including Dair and Down-B. Get used to the timing of your Up-air and both of his landing options. You can take quite a lot of percent or even a stock by keeping him in the air.

Edgeguarding is a little more tricky, given his recovery is deceptively good. Dair properly timed, will trade and spike him. Given his size Phantom can be good for hitting him above the ledge and Din's Fire can be good for hitting him when he is deep offstage.

Things to watch out for are Fair, Side-B(command grab), Up-Tilt, and Up-B OoS. Fair is his main spacing tool and is often what he uses to approach. It has a wide arc, but doesn't have as much range as it might seem. You can often preempt with a rising Nair. Up-Tilt is deceptively quick and has quite a lot of range, so make sure you don't try to land with a Dair. His command grab isn't amazing on it's own, but is really good as a punish tool and will allow him to body slam you onto the top ledge which can kill Zelda fairly early, so don't do anything risky, especially at higher percents. Up-B OoS is pretty good and will immediately put you in disadvantage, so don't hang out near or do anything risky on his shield. Just get in with a grab and get out.

If you're put in disadvantage, he doesn't have many quick attacks, so keep calm and don't panic into doing something that will allow him to
land a big hit. Zelda is really light, so he can make her die early as you seem to have found out. Up-Tilt will keep you in the air, so either get creative with moving through the platforms or go to the ledge. His Up-air is fairly linear and short if powerful, so avoid that and use any whiffs as an opportunity to fast fall to the ground/platform.

If you are on the ledge, be patient and observe where he is at currently. His Down-Tilt can 2-frame pretty easily and hits under the ledge, so try to have an aerial Phantom covering you as you try to grab the ledge. If he is tries to Down-Tilt while you are on the ledge, use that as a chance to roll behind him. If he is Down-smashing you, getup attack has invincibility, so use that to beat it. If he is repeatedly jumping to try to cover getup and jump, rising Nair should stuff any Fair attempts. If he is standing back a bit and waiting to catch a roll or see what you do, jump while charging Phantom, fast fall and release it if he tries to charge. It can be punished if your opponent is expecting it, so mix it up with DJing to the platform/over him. Don't get too predictable in your getup and mix things up in accordance with how he likes to edgeguard.

You want to keep him in disadvantage as long as possible and not do anything risky. Like most heavies, he thrives off of punishes, so long as you don't do anything too risky, you can live quite a long time. It's better to take a lot of damage than to panic into an air-dodge or other high committal move and let him get an F-Smash. Zelda has him beat in close range and has a variety of tools to take advantage of his disadvantage, so just take it easy and punish according to what he is doing at the time.
 

Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
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#20
Hello here.
I'm kinda new here and lurked a bit around in my first days here but I guess I'll post one question here because I'm having huge problems with :ultivysaur:.
I've played against some PTs online just now and I always started losing when they switched from Squirtle to Ivysaur and I have no real idea how to deal with this opponent. Charizard is also ok to deal with when they switched again.
It gives me much more problems than every sword character, especially while airborne. Don't even know what that attack is when it is extending the vines.
Anyway, I haven't found a way to effectively deal with it and I'm also very inexperienced against Ivysaur.
 
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StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
408
#21
Hello here.
I'm kinda new here and lurked a bit around in my first days here but I guess I'll post one question here because I'm having huge problems with :ultivysaur:.
I've played against some PTs online just now and I always started losing when they switched from Squirtle to Ivysaur and I have no real idea how to deal with this opponent. Charizard is also ok to deal with when they switched again.
It gives me much more problems than every sword character, especially while airborne. Don't even know what that attack is when it is extending the vines.

Anyway, I haven't found a way to effectively deal with it and I'm also very inexperienced against Ivysaur.
Welcome to the Zelda board.

Ivysaur's neutral is a little on the defensive side, so you need to be the one to force an approach. Razor Leaf is going to be the main tool, so either Up-B punish or use the Phantom to interrupt. Razor Leaf is a tad on the slow side of projectiles, but can go through things and is fairly safe, so you're going to need to have good spacing and timing to punish.

If that doesn't pan out, Fair and Bair(the vines) are going to start coming out. Fair is a single hit vine that knocks you up at an angle that can combo. It's not safe on shield, so be ready to Nair or Up-B OoS depending on spacing and percent. It's a little safer if they space it properly, but a parry follow up or quick attack should still be able to punish. Bair is a two hit attack that can be auto canceled and is fairly safe on shield, so you're likely not going to be able to punish, unless maybe you parry.

Nair can be used as an approach, but isn't safe on shield and is better suited for punishing or comboing, so you're probably not going to see Ivy use it too much. Dair is safe on shield in most cases, but is a bit situational and likely only going to cover landings or as a mix-up. It can be parried, so watch for the startup and use that as a cue for timing. Try your best to stay directly under Ivy. Dair might seem scary, but it has a relatively long startup, so Up-Tilt should be able to beat and Nair will work outside of Up-Tilt's range. Once you've countered the aerials, ground attacks are more for defense than approach, so the opponent might decide to switch.

Ivy's disadvantage is terrible, so once you land a hit you need to keep in it. Zelda's Up-air hitbox is comparable to Ivy's Dair hitbox, with the benefit of Zelda using her arm to reach above, meaning you can start it up a little earlier. Time that well and you can juggle him pretty good and should KO at a little over 100. Offstage, Vine Whip is a tether recovery and not a particularly good one. If Ivy recovers high, either Din's Fire or Phantom is good for sniping and a low recovery tends to put him at a good angle for Din's Fire to easily snipe.

If you get knocked into disadvantage, immediately retreat to the top platform or offstage to the ledge. Up-air is not something to contest and Ivy has a whole lot of tools to keep you juggled, including Vine Whip which has a sweet-spot that will kill stupid early. Have a fully charged Phantom covering the ledge before you snap to it, as Dair can 2-frame you pretty well.

You mostly want to play defense in this MU, given Ivy's superior neutral. If you can force an approach(use Phantom if necessary) you can punish Ivy's lack of good approach options with Zelda's good defensive options. Razor Leaf is a little tricky, but enough practice and observation of your opponent's spamming habits should shutdown that down pretty quick. It's been my experience that most PT's will switch to Charizard if Ivysaur, especially Razor Leaf, doesn't seem to be working. If nothing else, making yourself as hard to kill as possible, will make them switch out of frustration.
 

Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
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#22
Not really a MU question, but i post it because I wanna hear other opinions.
Is it only me or does the Pichu MU feel much more doable than before the patch? I don't exactly know what they did to Pichu but as far as I know they made him bigger and therefore his hurtboxes as well. It honestly feels more like fighting Pikachu now who I didn't struggle as hard against as against Pichu.
I feel like these two MUs are also slowly drifting more towards an even MU and not in Pikachu's/Pichu's favor. I also think the displaced phantom will help a lot in this MU if it can pulled out more consistently.
Note that this also goes for every other character but since Zelda has weird sweetspots on some of her attacks, I think this change might profit her a bit more than other characters...or I'm just too confident/naive.
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
408
#23
Hello!

So I know this is kind of a stupid question (especially seeing how Mac is one of the worst characters in the game, if not the worst), but I have a weirdly hard time dealing with this matchup in particular. I feel like I'm pretty good at using Zelda's tools (Phantom, Nayru's Love, rapid jab) to wall out the opponent, and I have a lot of her grab follow-ups down pat. However I find it really hard to a) maintain stage control with Mac's sheer ground mobility and b) the stupid super-armor frames on his smash attacks which make it so that neither Nayru's Love or Phantom can interrupt it, effectively stuffing out some of her best anti-approach options. On top of that, every time I try to go for a grab to get him off-stage so I can actually deal with him, I get punished (curse you, O 9-frame grab). Then, as a little cherry on top, I can't really out-manuever him on the ground due to Zelda's sub-par mobility, and due to Zelda's powerful but unreliable air game and Mac's awesome advantage state, Zelda loses there. What strategies do y'all use to get past this bad, annoying prick of a character?
L Lumo Hey, welcome to the Zelda board, I posted this here as this is the topic you want for MU advice. It's better to keep things consolidated for easy reference and your topic has a chance of getting locked if there is already a relevant one.

Don't worry, this actually isn't as easy, if you don't explicitly know how to deal with him. I think for this one, focus on keeping him in disadvantage, rather than worrying about maintaining stage control as much. Mac is considered the worst, because he has a really linear style and his disadvantage is atrocious. Focus on keeping him in the air and offstage, so he can't take advantage of his ground game. From there, all it takes is one solid hit offstage to end this match really quickly.

Nayru's Love can bust through his super armor, you just need to time it so the point of contact coincides with the invincibility frames of Nayru's Love. That will allow the multi-hits time to connect and knock him out of his super armor. You can also parry them and use an OoS option like Fair. From there, take that time to quickly setup a Phantom and then be ready to react to an option. Mac has no real answer for the Phantom, so when you do get enough space, make sure to set it up. You will then only need to react to and punish the options he takes.

On successful hit, he is light and Zelda is powerful, so will usually be knocked pretty far in the air. This is where Phantom will be really potent, as Mac can only really air-dodge or counter, so you can just wait and punish those. Once you get Mac offstage, it's pretty much game over. Phantom can edgeguard high recoveries, Din's Fire can reach low ones, and timing Nayru's Love will bust through Side-B and Up-B recoveries. Just make sure to watch for counter attempts when he is near the ledge. If your edgeguarding fails, just trap him at the ledge and then repeat the process.

I think this MU is bad enough for him and he is linear enough, that you could simply boil it down to a flow chart of knock him back > setup Phantom > knock him in the air > juggle/setup Phantom > punish options > knock him offstage > edgeguard him.

The difficult part is timing and being able to handle pressure. Just practice this enough that you can time things perfectly and not panic under pressure and you should have this.

Not really a MU question, but i post it because I wanna hear other opinions.
Is it only me or does the Pichu MU feel much more doable than before the patch?
I haven't fought Pichu yet, as the vast majority have been Joker. I'll post my thoughts when I do.
 

Armagon

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#24
There's two characters i struggle against that haven't been mentioned here. R.O.B :ultrob: and Wolf :ultwolf:. Out of all the space furries, Wolf gives me the most trouble. And as for R.O.B, i kinda just don't know how to approach him. I feel like R.O.B shuts down a lot of Zelda's options and i don't know what to do.
 

Gamer Cube

Smash Apprentice
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Mar 27, 2019
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96
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#25
UGH... I have the same problem with Ike:ultike:. It seems like you can't break through his defense because the second you approach him you just get launched off stage. Luckily, he hits very slow. A good strategy would probably be roll or spot dodge the second he approaches. He has huge punish time. Make sure you don't mess up, though, or you might get launched to heck and back.
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
408
#27
I don't have too extensive of experience with him, but I'll try to answer how I generally play the MU.

NEUTRAL

Zelda is fairly good at shutting down most zoners and has lots of ways around projectiles. Phantom lingers for quite a while at higher charges and lower charges can be used as quick walls to stop projectiles and allow Zelda time to set something up. Gyro can often be either reflected by Nayru at longer distances or blocked with Phantom. His laser goes through Phantom IIRC, so either reflect with Nayru or hop over it. If you have a good handle on the distance and lag of Farore's Wind, you can jump and then Up-B punish any projectile attempts. Rob's animation during them is fairly long, so he's pretty open to punishment by FW.

Rob's only real answer to Phantom is to either jump or use his reflector(that spin move). Jumping can put him at risk of being punished by Zelda. Up-air is very good and will beat most Dairs, so use that against Rob when he's above you. Rob has difficulty landing and will have to rely on Up-B trickery and Dairs to land, most of the time. Don't be confused by his stalling and punish the endlag on Dair.

Fully charged Phantom can be used to bait out his reflector and you can jump above him and punish with Dair on the blind spot(his head). Alternatively, you can wait until after the Phantom is reflected and then drop and punish with a stronger move like Fair/Bair or Up-B when he's finished spinning.

His roll is really good and he has some pretty good poking tools like D-Tilt, so be cautious up close. His grab is also good and can lead into his down throw, which will bury you, so be cautious when shielding. I think your best bet, is to fight him at a distance and try to force his reflector or an approach and then launch him in the air or off stage.

ADVANTAGE

Once you win neutral and have him in the air or off stage, you need to keep him there as long as possible. The longer you can keep him there, the easier this MU will be.

In the air, what I said above about using Up-air will suffice. Don't be tricked by his stalling, don't over commit and try make him run out of his Up-B or force him to the ledge. If he starts heading to the platform, Nair can be used to punish and dogfight in platforms. If he starts heading to the ground or air-dodges towards there, dash attack will send him off stage most of the time. For all other cases, Up-Tilt will continue juggling his attempts to land and allow you some versatility in spacing around any Dairs or his reflector mixup.

Off stage, Din's Fire is really good at sniping big bodies like his and the sweet-spot should instantly KO. Use it if he is far above the stage in the corner, or if he is below the stage near the corner. If he is a bit above or even with the ledge, Phantom is pretty good at sniping around there and will also instantly KO. Otherwise, Dair will spike his recovery fairly easily, given there's no hitbox above it, just be careful of his Up-B stalling or you might be the one getting spiked.

Depending on your timing, you can Fair/Bair his recovery, which will KO or stage spike into an untechable at high percents(not sure of the exact percent yet). You can also stage spike with Nayru, which while weak, can be used with a fully charged Phantom setup at the ledge and combo into it's slash. If you don't have time to do those, the usual Phantom ledge trapping shenanigans will work, just be on the lookout for a reflector getup.

DISADVANTAGE

Rob has a pretty good advantage state, so you need to be careful. If you're caught in the air, you need to give yourself more height by jumping, because his Up-airs are nasty and can juggle and KO really easy. He can't really chase you very high in the air, so adding more height can allow you to either get to the ledge or bait a over commitment from him, which will allow you to either Up-B to the ground or fast fall to the platform as he's landing from a failed attempt.

Off stage, Zelda is really difficult to edgeguard, so you can rest a little easy here. Other than random Gyros, which you need to be on the lookout for, or a reflector near the ledge, which you should recover high or low to avoid, his only real option is to try to 2-frame you at the ledge. Mixup your recovery with jumps and stalling and try to bait a Dair attempt. Time your recovery to coincide with the endlag of his Dair. I personally haven't played any Robs that were good at 2-frames, but that's not something you should be assuming.

I don't think there's any magic bullet or strategy in this one. He's so basic and neutral focused, you kind of just have to outplay him in neutral.

NEUTRAL

The biggest thing is patience. Wolf thrives off of punishes and being able to pressure in disadvantage. If he camps you, camp him back. Phantom gives you options and doesn't let him camp for free. The full charge's delay, lets you bait his reflector and allow you to punish, in a similar way to Rob's. He'll have to move eventually, so feel free to charge it, if he deigns to camp.

His neutral air is one of his main neutral tools. It can be parried fairly easily, so try to do that or just shield and often times you can punish with an OoS option. If you're good with Up-Tilt, that can be spaced in a way that will combat Wolf's aerials fairly well. Nair can also work as a good preempt, if you know what and when he is going to use.

The biggest issue you're going to face, is his laser. It can shutdown Phantom charge attempts and force you to break camp. If you're quick about things, you can release Phantom and it will act as a projectile wall. You won't get much off of it, but it can prevent you from being hit when charging. Reflecting can work, but you likely won't hit long range and Wolf can get hit and still punish Nayru's copious endlag up close. It's best to just do an empty full hop fast fall while charging Phantom or learn the Phantom displacement technique. Regardless of how you go about it, this is where neutral is going to be focused on the most and there's no easy answers. All I can really say is be tricky with mixups in avoiding laser and try different spacing methods to punish/gain stage control and hopefully discourage him from using this too much.

Try not to approach him as much as possible. His F-Tilt is good for stuffing approaches and Up-Smash is good for stuffing aerials. I think this MU will be centered around who can make the other approach first and neutral will be focused entirely around that. Unfortunately, I'm not really solid on this MU, so I don't much to offer in how you go about doing that, other than what I've already mentioned. I get by and that's about it.

ADVANTAGE

Unfortunately, you're not going to get much out of advantage. Low percent strings will work, but his base attributes are too good to really pressure him. This MU is very neutral heavy and you'll likely get Up-air or Fsmash reads at most.

In the air, you're going to need to pay close attention to DI and where he likes to land. He has quite a lot of mixups with jumps and his natural speed and agility, so it's going to be difficult to land anything. If you can force him to burn his jumps and read his DI, you can use Up-air to snipe. Nair is good at preventing him from moving through the platforms. Up-Tilt is good at catching bottom platform and ground landings.

Off stage, it's surprisingly difficult to edgeguard him. His Side-B is fast and can spike, so it's dangerous to try to contest it. Instead, try to time a jump above it as he tries to hit the ledge. It generally won't snap immediately, so you can Dair spike with good timing. Phantom can also hit him, but the timing is tricky. Learn the angle he needs to snap to the ledge and if he is not at the correct angle, even after his jumps, that's when you can go off stage. His Up-B is powerful, but slow. You can use Din's Fire to snap the long startup, if he has to do it from an angle away from the ledge. Otherwise, Dair can spike it, just be careful with the timing, as that Up-B is powerful. Nayru > Phantom slash shenanigans will also work.

DISADVANTAGE

Wolf can pressure pretty hard at lower percents, but like with most other characters, Zelda can float out at higher percents. He doesn't get much from Up-air, so just try to DI around it and get to the platforms. The main things you need to be careful of, is his Bair and Up-Smash. Don't try to land with Dair or contest him in any way. Focus on making it to the platforms or the ledge. Bair has some startup, so he'll likely be looking for an air-dodge, avoid that as much as possible, unless it's into the ground.

Off stage, there's nothing Wolf can really do. Never recover high, as that's where he likes to Bair KO you at 80. Like with Rob, mix up your timings, as Dsmash is still pretty powerful, even with the nerf. If you need to, you can Up-B past the ledge and hit him when he tries to Dsmash. Din's Fire also can work to force him in shield and hopefully allow you time to quickly jump/Up-B to the ledge.

Ike's fairly linear and not as difficult of an MU as he first seems.

NEUTRAL
Ike spams a lot of aerials and waits for you to approach, because he doesn't have a lot of approach tools. The key here, is to out range him with a bigger sword(Phantom). If he's camping, start fully charging Phantom and then move up as he backs off. Use Phantom to keep as much stage control as possible, while chipping away at him. You can occasionally use Din's Fire as a mixup here, to keep him guessing. This will often force him to approach, which you can then shield/parry options like Fair, then punish OoS. Your main goal here, is to build enough damage to knock him off stage, where you can then continue punishing his recovery.

ADVANTAGE

Once you knock him in the air, Up-air is usually quick enough to hit him before his aerials have time to come out. Nair can also hit him before his Fair has time to swing down. Just watch for Bair coming off the platforms, it's insanely fast and will kill you early.

Offstage, is where the real party will begin. Phantom will stop any Side-B recoveries, that aren't done high over the stage. Din's Fire can snipe ones high over the stage with good timing. Otherwise, just be ready to intercept him when he lands, as the endlag is fairly small. You might be able to Up-B, if you know where he's going to land and don't have time to make it there.

If he's forced to Up-B, the scoop Phantom slashes hit under the ledge and will knock him away, because his Up-B doesn't snap to the ledge. It's GG once that happens. Alternatively, doing Nayru's Love behind him will knock him out of his super armor and stage spike, but that's not really a situation you're going to be in very often.

DISADVANTAGE

If he gets you above him, you need to DI out ASAP. His Up-air is insane and he can combo you for days. Make sure you DI in FRONT of him or he can combo into Bair and kill you really early. Try getting to the point, where you can jump out of it and hurry to the platform or ground, as he's often too slow to chase. Just be careful of any potential dash attack chases, that move is fast and covers a lot of area. You just need to get to the ground as fast as possible and stay there.

Off stage, there's not much he can do, other than random Fair chases or the odd Up-B B-reverse. Don't recover high and don't recover at the angle that's lets him drop off Fair. Try and make sure you have an aerial Phantom covering your recovery, as his neutral B is very good at 2-framing Zelda's recovery. If nothing else, try to Up-B past the ledge and hit him out of it.

i wish I was good at Zelda ;-;
Just sharpen your advantage to offset your disadvantage and learn to mitigate damage in your disadvantage as much as possible. Otherwise, learn and grind lots of different MUs, as MU knowledge and experience is incredibly important for Zelda, who will sometimes need to change up her style depending on the MU. Phantom in particular, needs to be used differently in different types of MUs.
 

Gamer Cube

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 27, 2019
Messages
96
Location
Bountiful, UT
#28
Ike's fairly linear and not as difficult of an MU as he first seems.

NEUTRAL
Ike spams a lot of aerials and waits for you to approach, because he doesn't have a lot of approach tools. The key here, is to out range him with a bigger sword(Phantom). If he's camping, start fully charging Phantom and then move up as he backs off. Use Phantom to keep as much stage control as possible, while chipping away at him. You can occasionally use Din's Fire as a mixup here, to keep him guessing. This will often force him to approach, which you can then shield/parry options like Fair, then punish OoS. Your main goal here, is to build enough damage to knock him off stage, where you can then continue punishing his recovery.

ADVANTAGE

Once you knock him in the air, Up-air is usually quick enough to hit him before his aerials have time to come out. Nair can also hit him before his Fair has time to swing down. Just watch for Bair coming off the platforms, it's insanely fast and will kill you early.

Offstage, is where the real party will begin. Phantom will stop any Side-B recoveries, that aren't done high over the stage. Din's Fire can snipe ones high over the stage with good timing. Otherwise, just be ready to intercept him when he lands, as the endlag is fairly small. You might be able to Up-B, if you know where he's going to land and don't have time to make it there.

If he's forced to Up-B, the scoop Phantom slashes hit under the ledge and will knock him away, because his Up-B doesn't snap to the ledge. It's GG once that happens. Alternatively, doing Nayru's Love behind him will knock him out of his super armor and stage spike, but that's not really a situation you're going to be in very often.

DISADVANTAGE

If he gets you above him, you need to DI out ASAP. His Up-air is insane and he can combo you for days. Make sure you DI in FRONT of him or he can combo into Bair and kill you really early. Try getting to the point, where you can jump out of it and hurry to the platform or ground, as he's often too slow to chase. Just be careful of any potential dash attack chases, that move is fast and covers a lot of area. You just need to get to the ground as fast as possible and stay there.

Off stage, there's not much he can do, other than random Fair chases or the odd Up-B B-reverse. Don't recover high and don't recover at the angle that's lets him drop off Fair. Try and make sure you have an aerial Phantom covering your recovery, as his neutral B is very good at 2-framing Zelda's recovery. If nothing else, try to Up-B past the ledge and hit him out of it.


Just sharpen your advantage to offset your disadvantage and learn to mitigate damage in your disadvantage as much as possible. Otherwise, learn and grind lots of different MUs, as MU knowledge and experience is incredibly important for Zelda, who will sometimes need to change up her style depending on the MU. Phantom in particular, needs to be used differently in different types of MUs.
What is Phantom? Is it the name of someone's sword or something? I'm not that well-versed in technical names.
 

Yashill

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 25, 2019
Messages
12
#32
That's kind of difficult to answer, as I haven't figured out any real strategies other than outplaying them. I'll try to answer to the best of my ability, though.



:ultfalcon:

He plays pretty much like he did in Smash 4, minus the dash grab, so the same strategies will apply in most cases. All of his moves are pretty much lagless now, so rather than trying to punish the endlag, punish the long lasting hitboxs instead. Falcon lacks disjoints, so properly spacing Zelda's disjoints will beat out his attacks. Like the others, he lacks good approach options, and will try to intimidate and confuse you with his speed. Keep in mind you are the final target, so all of his attacks will come to you eventually. As such, you can predict where he will go and be waiting with a suitable punish.

Same DI principles will apply. If he is DIing towards you, space a disjoint to stop his attack. If he DIs away he is baiting an approach. Unlike the others, Falcon has some risk and doesn't have good all purpose aerials. If he is approaching with his back to you, he is likely going to Bair, which is his main approach or bait aerial. Bair has little range, so you have time to ascertain whether he is committing or is pulling back to bait. If he commits, shield and you should be able to OoS shield punish him. If he pulls back, don't chase him, instead be ready to charge a Phantom if he hops away.

If he is facing toward you and is fast falling, expect a Fair(knee) and shield. Falcons generally don't seem to like to Nair, unless they are jumping from the ground. If he is above you and is fast falling, expect a Dair and shield. Once you have his aerial spacing memorized, he doesn't have much else left. Watch for his Falcon Kick on the ground or his Side-B and he doesn't have much left to approach with.

One thing you do need to be aware of, that is different from before, is his Up-B. It is an actual KO option now and it is a very fast and good one. If you get knocked above him and are close the blast zone, fast fall immediately and DI away. Don't bother trying to charge Phantom off stage, he will Up-B faster than you can release it and it will KO Zelda stupid early. Instead, recover low and watch for any aggressive spike attempts. You can hang around for a long time, so don't rush straight into a Dair.

Otherwise, he has the same weaknesses as the others. Juggle him endlessly and don't miss an edgeguard attempt. He is huge and easily trapped and combo'd, so use Phantom and Up-air to their fullest effect.


You just need to not be intimidated by their speed. They play very similar to how they did in 4, they are just much faster now. They still have the same weaknesses and they still lack range and diversity in their moveset. They need to be close to you to actually hit you and as such, they have a very linear path of attack. They will either move straight to you or back off and hope you chase them. That is basically a 50-50 and if you are patient, they will eventually have to come to you.
Forgive me if this has been stated already, still new to using the forum.

My boyfriend mains Falcon, so this MU in particular is one I feel very comfortable with. I completely agree with whats been said I just wanted to add that a problem in this MU (and in others) is avoiding lagged options when off the stage. Characters with aerial options like Falcon's nair, fair, bair, uair and up b, plus their speed make them dangerous to be locked in place. As stated above if they are below you off stage beware.

More to the point even if you are even with them in the air, watch for their fast fall into a jump to up b/aerial. Even at low percents you'll be killed.

A good mixup option, is to bait them out to you off stage and up b towards ledge and try to catch their recovery in reverse. It's not something to go for every time but I have caught characters like falcon out with this a lot. They go to pressure you off stage and confirm a kill but in return have to try to return to stage early themselves only to be hit themselves. The key is to space it so you have to float to ledge afterwards.

Also never trust a frontal charge either. Good falcons will be able to RAR Bair into you if you aren't expecting it. Try to be careful to not be baited out of shield as well by a falling nair. First hit of nair will pop you up into easy fairs and uairs for Falcon.
 

Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
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#33
Falco looks pretty much impossible when they use the laser. Nayru sounds good ans all but that won't let you win a match against this. Air approaches don't work because his uTilt covers that. Phantom doesn't work because the laser knocks Zelda out of that.
So what to do against overly campy Falcos (i.e. how they should be played)? Looks pretty much unwinnable.
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
408
#34
Forgive me if this has been stated already, still new to using the forum.
Hey, welcome to the forum.

Good points, that post you quoted is old and made early in the meta, so I may have missed or gotten some things wrong. Definitely feel free to add where you see fit.

Falco looks pretty much impossible when they use the laser. Nayru sounds good ans all but that won't let you win a match against this. Air approaches don't work because his uTilt covers that. Phantom doesn't work because the laser knocks Zelda out of that.
So what to do against overly campy Falcos (i.e. how they should be played)? Looks pretty much unwinnable.
This MU is a bit of a mystery to me, partly due to him being rare for me to face, so I can't give any real game plan, just some tips/thoughts.

The Phantom displacement should work against his projectile(RAR version). Other than that, don't take the bait, if they don't have the lead and just continue hopping over any spam or camping the platform or shielding, until you get close enough to make it unsafe for them to spam. If they do have the lead, you will have to put yourself at risk and drop down to the ledge or hop on the platform and try and bait them into approaching, if the above doesn't work. Just make sure you don't get caught in disadvantage and make a bad situation worse.

I think a bit counter intuitively, you want to play this MU rather close to Falco and not let him get any space. That's what he wants, but you don't have much of an alternative, if he's going to play campy. It's still fairly even up close, so it will come down to neutral. His hitboxs are wide, long, and deceptive, but you have greater disjoints. Get familiar with his aerials and where you might find openings to move closer or punish. Be careful when trying to OoS, as his aerials are incredibly deceptive, especially his Fair, so get used to how many hits he lands on shield, before it's safe to OoS punish.

Don't be afraid to travel on the ground. His projectile is somewhat laggy, so you can parry if need be, and you can move up little by little. He doesn't have many great ground options, so he can't easily stuff ground approaches. KO options are somewhat lacking, so watch for Fsmash in neutral(fairly safe), and Dsmash near the ledge. Bair and maybe Up-Smash are the only real good alternatives, but are more situational and easier to avoid.

If tries to DJ FF aerial you, you can use movement to move just out of range and punish his landing. Since he's committed to an aerial(usually Dair, but sometimes mixes up with Fair), you won't have to worry about air-dodges or jumps. Don't attempt to punish, if it's an empty hop. If he insists on continually empty hopping, that's when you can use Phantom as a deterrent. Just lookout for his reflector and time a Nayru or Up-B or hop over him and Dair punish.

When he's offstage, that's when you can either use Phantom to punish any Side-B attempts at or above the ledge or you can Dair spike his Up-B. He can't kill very well, so avoid any panic options that might let him land a smash attack or Bair and you should be fine in disadvantage. He can pressure you anywhere, but isn't very damaging or threatening with any safe moves. Mostly, it's just going to be you getting used to the micro spacing up close, than anything else. Just get lots of neutral experience in this MU.
 

Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
1,051
Location
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#35
Hey, welcome to the forum.

Good points, that post you quoted is old and made early in the meta, so I may have missed or gotten some things wrong. Definitely feel free to add where you see fit.


This MU is a bit of a mystery to me, partly due to him being rare for me to face, so I can't give any real game plan, just some tips/thoughts.

The Phantom displacement should work against his projectile(RAR version). Other than that, don't take the bait, if they don't have the lead and just continue hopping over any spam or camping the platform or shielding, until you get close enough to make it unsafe for them to spam. If they do have the lead, you will have to put yourself at risk and drop down to the ledge or hop on the platform and try and bait them into approaching, if the above doesn't work. Just make sure you don't get caught in disadvantage and make a bad situation worse.

I think a bit counter intuitively, you want to play this MU rather close to Falco and not let him get any space. That's what he wants, but you don't have much of an alternative, if he's going to play campy. It's still fairly even up close, so it will come down to neutral. His hitboxs are wide, long, and deceptive, but you have greater disjoints. Get familiar with his aerials and where you might find openings to move closer or punish. Be careful when trying to OoS, as his aerials are incredibly deceptive, especially his Fair, so get used to how many hits he lands on shield, before it's safe to OoS punish.

Don't be afraid to travel on the ground. His projectile is somewhat laggy, so you can parry if need be, and you can move up little by little. He doesn't have many great ground options, so he can't easily stuff ground approaches. KO options are somewhat lacking, so watch for Fsmash in neutral(fairly safe), and Dsmash near the ledge. Bair and maybe Up-Smash are the only real good alternatives, but are more situational and easier to avoid.

If tries to DJ FF aerial you, you can use movement to move just out of range and punish his landing. Since he's committed to an aerial(usually Dair, but sometimes mixes up with Fair), you won't have to worry about air-dodges or jumps. Don't attempt to punish, if it's an empty hop. If he insists on continually empty hopping, that's when you can use Phantom as a deterrent. Just lookout for his reflector and time a Nayru or Up-B or hop over him and Dair punish.

When he's offstage, that's when you can either use Phantom to punish any Side-B attempts at or above the ledge or you can Dair spike his Up-B. He can't kill very well, so avoid any panic options that might let him land a smash attack or Bair and you should be fine in disadvantage. He can pressure you anywhere, but isn't very damaging or threatening with any safe moves. Mostly, it's just going to be you getting used to the micro spacing up close, than anything else. Just get lots of neutral experience in this MU.
I got lucky online where I faced the same Falco multiple times (the games pretty much went to last-stock last-hit situations with mixed end results) afterwards and the matches helped a lot understanding what such a Falco wants. Battlefield variants are still much better since there are platforms to move around. Falco's laser is a bit too laggy to keep up there but it's still hard to get in with Zelda but it's doable.
What I noticed that aerial approaches really don't work here. His uTilt is a very strong move and it can lead into multiple combos that rack up damage really fast. Looks like Zelda is as light and floaty as Falco wants her to be. DI may be a factor but it's still hard to not get caught.
It seems that what you describe pretty much fits this MU, though. I still have some problems understanding how his fAir hitbox work, though. But I think that'll come over time.
As always, really grateful for the advice you gave and how much time you spend into writing a comprehensive reply.

One question: What's a DJ FF aerial, though? I've never heard this term since I'm still fairly new to the smash scene.
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
408
#36
I got lucky online where I faced the same Falco multiple times (the games pretty much went to last-stock last-hit situations with mixed end results) afterwards and the matches helped a lot understanding what such a Falco wants. Battlefield variants are still much better since there are platforms to move around. Falco's laser is a bit too laggy to keep up there but it's still hard to get in with Zelda but it's doable.
What I noticed that aerial approaches really don't work here. His uTilt is a very strong move and it can lead into multiple combos that rack up damage really fast. Looks like Zelda is as light and floaty as Falco wants her to be. DI may be a factor but it's still hard to not get caught.
It seems that what you describe pretty much fits this MU, though. I still have some problems understanding how his fAir hitbox work, though. But I think that'll come over time.
As always, really grateful for the advice you gave and how much time you spend into writing a comprehensive reply.

One question: What's a DJ FF aerial, though? I've never heard this term since I'm still fairly new to the smash scene.
You're welcome.

In general, it's usually best to keep to the ground as Zelda. Her aerials tend to have large gaps that her hitboxs don't cover, especially Nair, which leaves her wide open to attacks from below. But yes, Falco's Up-Tilt is really good and you should try to keep to the ground, when you're not hopping over his projectiles or reflector. You won't be able to escape low to mid percent combos, but DI should help avoid any hits at high percents, which is where you need to be careful to avoid Fair or Bair(they can kill at high percents).

It's been a while, but if I recall correctly, the last hitbox on his Fair is stronger, so should make a louder sound and knock your shield back a little further. You can use that as your cue. I think what makes it so deceptive, is Falco doesn't land immediately, rather he weirdly suspends himself above the ground a bit, until the move finishes and he lands normally. It's a sort of visual trick, in that you're expecting him to land instantly, like most aerials, but instead he just hovers for a very long time. If I'm remembering the above correctly, you can wait for the final hit and then punish OoS.

DJ FF, is just me abbreviating double jump and fast fall respectively. By DJ FF aerial in this case, I mean when Falco uses his quick and high jumps, then fast falls and lands with an aerial(usually Dair). His jumps and aerials are good and fast, so Falcos like to do that sometimes.
 

Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
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#37
I do think people could have problems with the Diddy match-up. Myself included but he doesn't feel that oppressive to me in this game, though.
But if anyone is interested in a match against a Diddy then we got a good GF set of Ven vs. Dakpo.
I don't know how good Dakpo is but he is certainly good when he gets in a Vegas GF.
Anyway, the set shows nice stuff and showcases whatto use when against Diddy. He can't really stay out of her range since otherwise he can't do anything to her, so some phantom placements are required in this MU, especially because of banana peels:
 
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Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
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Messages
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#38
Ok, I've played a lot of different MUs by now (only Online, though :p) but I feel confident in saying that :ultroy: is her absolute worst MU. Kinda surprised he wasn't mentioned at all in this topic before but he has pretty much everything that Zelda hates: Good air and ground speed. :ultlucina: doesn't really have the air speed Roy has. Zelda's even faster than Lucina in that regard, so that's something that makes these two MUs vastly different. I think the Lucina MU is actually quite even.
What Roy also lacks is an awful recovery. Chrom shares the same traits as Roy does but can be much easier edgeguarded and he lacks a sour spot that, for Roy, leads into very devastating combos for her. Chrom isn't nearly as bad for her as Roy, although I wonder what she could do against both Roy's and Chrom's groundgame. Both can shut down her camping tools by their air and ground speed. Lucina's a bit too slow for that, so Roy has a really easy time getting in and yeah. Kinda puzzled how do play this :3.
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
408
#39
With Roy, you want to focus more on punishing his landings and attempts to get back on stage, rather than recovery. IIRC, he has intangibility on Up-B from frame 4 to I think 12(don't quote me on 12). So it won't really be possible for Zelda to edgeguard at lower percents. His landing options are poor however, so setup a Phantom ledge trap instead, and then continue punishing his landings and send him back off stage. Once you get him at high percents, he'll start needing to use both jumps and Up-B to recover. Then you can time Nayru's Love to punish the vulnerable frames on his Up-B and gimp him, it doesn't have great range. Just watch for Bair landings or counter mixups. I'd have to check, but I think Zelda's Fsmash will outrange his Fair and Bair landings and Up-air should beat Dair. Up-Tilt can also trade with Dair.

Other than that, the rest is the same as Chrom. He's very fast, with a punishing advantage, but his neutral is rather linear. Outside of Dancing Blade and Jab, nearly all FE characters lack useful multi-hits, making them susceptible to parries and spot-dodges. Chroy needs to mix their neutral up, with empty jumps and cross ups. They're mostly looking for a stray hit or for you to whiff. Keep patient, wait for them to overextend, then use your advantage to it's fullest extent, and try to knock them offstage. Jab, D-Tilt, properly spaced aerials, are all safe for them to spam. If they start trying to poke with F-Tilt or Fsmash, that's when you spot-dodge/parry them and punish. Up-tilt isn't safe on whiff at all, so make sure you punish the endlag, if you are in a position to do so.

Mostly, you just want to survive neutral long enough to get in advantage state. They can combo Zelda hard, but killing isn't easy for them, so long as you look out for the setups of Nair into Bair or Jab mixups, as well as Fsmashes and F-Tilts at high percents. Roy's Dancing Blade is also a kill move at 100, so don't let him hit you with it at the ledge(anything before the third hit, is safe on shield). Zelda has a better advantage state, so bide your time and wait for a good opportunity. If they get too happy with hitboxs on your shield, that's when you parry or spot-dodge, depending on the move, then punish. Of course, if they accidentally space to far into your shield, especially Fair, then you can hit them with an OoS.

If you get knocked into disadvantage, don't panic, as the worst they can do is keep racking damage. They're looking for panic options to Fsmash, so just focus on evading any situation where you can land into Fsmash, Up-Smash, or Bair. Don't be intimidated by their speed and ability to fire a billion hitboxs a second, only the moves I mentioned will kill at any reasonable percent. Just focus on mixing up your getup, be very careful when going for a roll onstage, and you'll make it back eventually. They can't really edgeguard, so you're safe in biding your time offstage, just watch for Fsmash at the ledge, I believe it goes under the ledge. If nothing else, Nayru's Love will beat out their small swords, as long as you time it properly and it's not Dancing Blade you're trying to contest.
 

Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
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#40
Question is what do I punish them with. Grab seems to slow and doesn't outrange when they space their moves properly, at least that's my experience I had. Ftilt is also a bit too slow and pretty dangerous.
I haven't tries fair OoS because I can't get the input consistently, maybe that's an option but it should be the fastest option (I really don't know her framedata outside of Nayru) because Kuroganehammer didn't have the framedata and I don't know another website that has framedata. But they have added her by now and it looks like fair OoS is indeed her fastest option.

What I really need to stop is using Nayru as a "panic" option. That move is good when it hit but the cooldown is huge (nearly 60 frames).
I guess I really need to be more patient in this game in general but especially against chars like Roy (I also underestimate their disjoints but that's not really a MU problem). I'll try keeping this in mind when I face another Roy and hopefully it'll go better than.
 
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