Let's discuss Rainbow Cruise(We're done with Brinstar, I guess)!

[SaveMeJebus]

Don't we have any guidelines on stage legalization that someone can post/link?

No and that's the problem.

 

[Sushi3]

Please post evidence when you're describing exactly "how polarizing" a counterpick is for certain characters/certain playstyles. If you cannot find evidence then there is not much point in arguing for/against Matchup Polarization at this time.

 

[WindMajor]

Don't we have any guidelines on stage legalization that someone can post/link?

The only guidelines I can think of is Grim's thread that he made recently, and Sunshade's thread that is linked in the first page of the social thread.

tl;dr
perma walkoffs and walls are bad
excessive randomness is bad
mitigating skill is bad
polarizing match ups are bad
popularity is a factor in all this

 

[Sushi3]

@ Xivi

Good to know. For each category, there should be objective data, when available.

 

[Roller]

Ice Climbers go from being top tier to NOT VIABLE on Brinstar. That is ****ing stupid. If a stage has that much of an impact on how the game or how characters have to be played, it is essentially making the game significantly less PvP, and way more PvPvS.

It then becomes less about who is better between the 2 players, and more about whose character has more abusive **** they can do on the stage. That is not competitive imo.

 

[Sushi3]

The question is: Is it WRONG for a top tier character to not be VIABLE on Brinstar, thereby forcing you to switch characters or make Brinstar an auto-ban?

Also, Cruise later.

 

[Akaku94]

Ice Climbers go from being top tier to NOT VIABLE on Brinstar. That is ****ing stupid. If a stage has that much of an impact on how the game or how characters have to be played, it is essentially making the game significantly less PvP, and way more PvPvS.

It then becomes less about who is better between the 2 players, and more about whose character has more abusive **** they can do on the stage. That is not competitive imo.

Maybe the Ice Climbers aren't top tier if they are unviable on a stage that isn't broken. Maybe they're rated so high because the starter list buffs them artificially!

 

[Kuro~]

The stage itself isn't broken it's the characters that break it.

 

[Life]

Ice Climbers go from being not viable to TOP TIER on FD. That is ****ing stupid. If a stage has that much of an impact on how the game or how characters have to be played, it is essentially making the game significantly less (P+S)v(P+S), and way more PvP.

It then becomes less about who is better between the 2 players, and more about whose character has more abusive **** they can do on the stage. That is not competitive imo.

Fixed that for you. Fallacy of assuming that flat stages are the default and anything different is bad, 'n' all that.

 

[Akaku94]

The stage itself isn't broken it's the characters that break it.

That makes no sense. If a tiny group of characters totally break a stage, the stage is overcentralizing, and thus broken. If it gives an advantage (even a strong one) to certain characters in certain matchups, it's a good counterpick!

Fixed that for you. Fallacy of assuming that flat stages are the default and anything different is bad, 'n' all that.

THANK YOU!!! Someone has been paying attention!

 

[Raziek]

 

[Life]

@Raz Saving that pic LOL

@Akaku I actually picked up on that from BPC (back when he was cool, heehee), but *highfive* anyway.

 

[Akaku94]

+1 internet for Raziek...

@Complex, lol me too. I mean, I don't agree with him on everything, but as far as stage philosophy, he was right on the money.

 

[Sushi3]

We are assuming you can switch characters right? Then with Brinstar legal, dedicated ICs will likely no longer be "top tier," but the ICs/Wario combo, for example, will definitely be a force to be reckoned with, with neither character alone necessarily deemed "top tier."

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I've begun a research project on Brinstar. I only have one 8 minute observation so far, but some interesting things are coming up. Like the fact that there are 8 different observable acid heights. There are three different rising rates and four different falling rates. It's pretty interesting.... I'm looking to take 20 data points, but we'll see how patient I am.

 

[WindMajor]

Are you putting it all in Excel?

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Are you putting it all in Excel?

It's on my engineering notepad right now, since I had to do a few dry runs to figure out what kind of data I wanted. Oh, I also have acid duration data. Position H (all the way up) never has a duration (so far), it just hits the height and drops.

Anyways, I'll write a formal report for you guys when I'm done. Data will be presented in graphical form... I'm also going to look for patterns, to see if there are any. Note though that the time length for completion is probably on the order of a week or so.

 

[Akaku94]

Looking forward to it. Thanks.

 

[Steam]

Idk how anyone could say brinstar is 10x more strong a stage than fd... Because in order to make comparisons like that there has to be an assumed "default" situation... And there really can't be one.

 

[WindMajor]

Me too. Much appreciated too.

Grrr ninja'd

 

[Tesh]

ICs are a very powerful but very fragile gimmick. Thats why they change so much from stage to stage. Imagine if Snake had a stage where suddenly he wasn't heavy, couldn't kill you at 120 and couldn't blow things up.

 

[Roller]

Fixed that for you. Fallacy of assuming that flat stages are the default and anything different is bad, 'n' all that.

Except Battlefield is ICs best stage. Just ask Hylian.

ICs like platforms, allows them to abuse their op uair and can cause nair-> IB resets for free grabs.


Welcome to the 2010 metagame. Let me know when you catch up to present day.

 

[WindMajor]

That changes nothing about his argument.

 

[-LzR-]

Let's buff ICs because Roller is salty and wants IC to become better. My main G&W is dumb and should be banned because he likes aerial stages. Riiight?

Also using nair -> IB to get a grab from a platform is no different than breaking Brinstar in half or using the walls to linger hitboxes or force the opponent to jump with the lava.

 

[Life]

You know, funny, I just had a friend(-ish) yell at me yesterday for refuting the specifics without refuting the argument.

And everyone knows my gameplay is stuck in 2008 anyway, yet I can still argue ruleset philosophy. Get on my level

 

[Sushi3]

<- is looking forward to Tuen's data before he can yell at people

 

[Akaku94]

Let's buff ICs because Roller is salty and wants IC to become better. My main G&W is dumb and should be banned because he likes aerial stages. Riiight?

Also using nair -> IB to get a grab from a platform is no different than breaking Brinstar in half or using the walls to linger hitboxes or force the opponent to jump with the lava.

Also using nair -> IB to get a grab from a platform is no different than breaking Brinstar in half or using the walls to linger hitboxes or force the opponent to jump with the lava.

no different

no different

Thank you. Thank you so much. I like you more every day...

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Looking forward to it. Thanks.

Me too. Much appreciated too.

Grrr ninja'd

<- is looking forward to Tuen's data before he can yell at people

Heh, thanks guys. I'll keep at it... each 8-minute match observation takes a little over twice as long, as I have to pause at the crest and take notes. This should turn out to be the most detailed report on Brinstar ever made though :-p.

 

[-LzR-]

Thank you. Thank you so much. I like you more every day...

I'm sorry, I don't get it...

 

[Kuro~]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=278807

It has some general brinstar info in it.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

"Hazards are very easy to avoid"

You know it's very easy to frame trap an opponent into either getting hit by an aerial or forcing them to air dodge and get hit by the stage.

 

[Life]

"Hazards are very easy to avoid"

You know it's very easy to frame trap an opponent into either getting hit by an aerial or forcing them to air dodge and get hit by the stage.

And that's skill.

Hazards aren't going to hit you out of nowhere--they are meant to be used strategically.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

And that's skill.

Hazards aren't going to hit you out of nowhere--they are meant to be used strategically.

How is that skill? It's no different from anything they would do on any other stage except that on this stage, you have acid below to punish your opponent.

 

[Life]

What's unskilled about it? You put yourself in a situation to get frametrapped, knowing that there's a hazard beneath you, and your opponent capitalized.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

What's unskilled about it? You put yourself in a situation to get frametrapped, knowing that there's a hazard beneath you, and your opponent capitalized.

That is a situation that happens on every other stage. The difference is that on every other stage, there is no acid below you. Are you trying to tell me that players should be trying even harder on this stage not to get frame trapped than they do on any other stage?

 

[Akaku94]

I'm sorry, I don't get it...

lol just saying that I enjoy arguing/agreeing with you more than most people, that's all

What's unskilled about it? You put yourself in a situation to get frametrapped, knowing that there's a hazard beneath you, and your opponent capitalized.

^this.

Using the lava to your advantage is exactly the same as using SV's platform, or Japes' Klaptrap, or FD's lack of platforms to your advantage.

 

[Life]

That is a situation that happens on every other stage. The difference is that on every other stage, there is no acid below you. Are you trying to tell me that players should be trying even harder on this stage not to get frame trapped than they do on any other stage?

every other stage

Ban FD because every other stage has platforms.

Also, http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=317506

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Using the lava to your advantage is exactly the same as using SV's platform, or Japes' Klaptrap, or FD's lack of platforms to your advantage.

What part of those things aren't random do you guys not understand?

 

[Life]

What part of those things aren't random do you guys not understand?

1. Brinstar's acid is only barely random.
2. Ability to adapt to the stage with little advance notice is also a skill.

 

[WindMajor]

That is a situation that happens on every other stage. The difference is that on every other stage, there is no acid below you. Are you trying to tell me that players should be trying even harder on this stage not to get frame trapped than they do on any other stage?

Yes. This is exactly it.