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Legality of extra buttons?

Icyo

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
661
Location
Seattle
I really couldn't find a better place for this so I'm posting here.

Recently I've been thinking about adding some new buttons to my controller. They will be associated with specials much like the average B button. Based on their location I will name them appropriately. "Down B" will be located on the bottom of my controller and will initiate my character's down special. "Side B" will be located on the left or right side and will initiate the character's side special. "Up B" will be on the top side...oh wait it's already there.

Anyways, is this legal?
 

Katakiri

LV 20
Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Messages
967
NNID
Katakiri
3DS FC
2492-5180-2983
Yea, I'm pretty sure that even "turbo" buttons a iffy.
 

Vyse

Faith, Hope, Love, Luck
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
9,561
Location
Brisbane, Australia
Only cosmetic changes are allowed (like swapping in different halves or spray painting).

Physical modifications beyond that are meant to be illegal. However, the smash community seems to have forgotten the 'Remove the springs from the triggers' trick that's meant to make shielding easier/better or something.

Though, I'd like to see a controller mod like you described lol.
 

The Phazon Assassin

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 23, 2008
Messages
2,719
Location
Here.
However, the smash community seems to have forgotten the 'Remove the springs from the triggers' trick that's meant to make shielding easier/better or something.
Shhhh.....they're not supposed to know.....

Although, I've had my springs taken out over a year ago. I always thought that was, like, an unwritten exception to the rule.
 

Jonas

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Messages
2,400
Location
Aarhus, Denmark, Europe
Removing springs doesn't add any functionality to the controller (if anything, it removes functionality for some games). It just makes the shoulder buttons more comfortable for some players.
The mod Icyo proposes sounds like a C-stick for special moves (only with buttons instead of a stick), letting you move left or right in the air while doing a special move in the opposite direction, for instance. I don't think it would be tourney lega, but I'd like to see how it works (and how the controller would look) :p
 

Kitamerby

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 9, 2007
Messages
5,729
Location
Las Vegas
Removing springs makes shielding theoretically faster.

It ****s up your chances of ever enjoying Super Mario Sunshine again, though. :\
 

Jimnymebob

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
2,020
NNID
Jimnymebob
enjoying Super Mario Sunshine again,
:laugh:

Sorry.

Removing the springs would make shielding easier, because the fact that you have to press it down all the way to shield and roll for Brawl keeps me for using the Gamecube controller. However, making a custom controller would probably be a no no in tournaments, due to the fact modded ones/ turbos aren't allowed, and depending on what controller you would be adding buttons to (so first or third party), it may not work properly anyway.
 

MetalMusicMan

Sleepwalk our lives away.
Joined
Aug 8, 2007
Messages
5,643
Location
St. Charles, Missouri
To the OP-- yeah, most people probably wouldn't be okay with that kind of thing, I don't think.





As for springs...


I don't think anyone cares about removing springs from the controller, or at least, they shouldn't care.

I think the reason for that is that it's generally an accepted way around the poor design decision to have removed analog programming from the shield mechanic in Brawl. The gamecube controller was designed to have analog response, but rather than making the analog press of the R/L buttons initiate the shield, they made it not initialize until pressed all the way down.

There's nothing wrong with not having analog "light shielding" in Brawl, they just should have made the way the Gamecube controller R/L buttons responded in Brawl work differently with it.



I think most people just see this as an acceptable way to get around this stupid programming choice and not a "hack" or "cheat" mod by any means.

Personally, I don't remove my springs, but I don't care if anyone else does or not either.
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
Whether the design choice of input registration by the development team in regards to shielding was good or bad should be irrelevant to this discussion. The game is what it is, and if you support allowing the removal of springs, you support non-default controllers. It's very simple.

In most fighting games, the rules for controllers are that they can be just about anything as long as it doesn't allow you to do something that would otherwise be impossible or somehow assist you directly in input. The line here is usually drawn at any sort of a macro that allows one button input to count for inputs on multiple frames. That is, if I want to use a button that presses down + B or A + X on the exact same frame when I hit it, that's fair game. If I want a button that presses Z every frame or inputs a perfect macro to do an optimum DACUS, that's not okay. In terms of how you physically make the buttons, the former cases are all just double wiring two things to the same output into the console. The latter cases are basically putting a chip in the controller and programming it. Of course, I don't know exactly how the GC controller is made; any custom controllers would have to only be able to accept exactly one analogue stick input press at a time (so holding right on the actual stick and pressing the down + B button has to have either the right or the down take priority and not consider both at once), and for the sake of true accuracy, LR and UD inputs from the dpad shouldn't be allowed either (though I can't imagine how they'd be helpful).

I think the other fighting game position on controllers is generally more sensible than what smash tournaments usually do, but if you support what smash tournaments usually do, allowing exactly one gameplay relevant modification (spring removal) while not allowing extra non-macro buttons or anything like that just strikes me as inconsistent. Time has mostly shown the option to have these sort of things is irrelevant since it at best barely improves performance (it's small enough that even at a high level, it really does not matter), and the cost of making such custom controllers is prohibitive for most people.

Do consider the fuzzy other cases as well. I know a local smasher who replaced his left stick with a second c-stick because he likes how it feels better. I've known of other people replacing the c-stick with a second left stick, and I've known of people who import sticks from Wii Remote Nunchucks because they are more responsive than GC sticks. You could have a sticky button on your controller; would installing a replacement button, potentially one of higher quality than the original one the controller came with, be against the rules?

You also have a small number of people wanting to use converters to play with non-Gamecube controllers which I find very hard to justify banning. I remember one guy on the forums a while back wanted to play with a N64 controller; why, honestly, should he be disallowed from that? I can really see why someone might want to use an Xbox360 controller, and there are always the group of crazy people who think PS2 controllers are something other than the biggest pieces of garbage we collectively have ever used as input devices for gaming.

In summary, the rules are restrictive usually, but they really shouldn't be.
 

-Kiros-

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
375
Location
i is creepin
Before I read this thread and found out that you could remove springs from the triggers, I used rubber bands to hold down the first stage of the shoulder buttons. "Cosmetic" change, no? But after removing the springs, do the L/R triggers spring back from being clicked with another set of springs (or something else) or do they just stay there?

Anyways, seeing this thread makes reminds me of something I brainstormed a couple days ago. What if you added, say, and extra Z button about the L trigger but wired it to the D-pad (up, left, right, or down direction)? Would that be legal? I was thinking about adding another Z button above the L trigger and taking some old B buttons from other controllers and putting them on the handle, where they would be wired to the D-pad's up, left/right, and down directions. Wouldn't this technically be legal, as you're only re-routing the buttons but they would still have the same functionality as the D-pad?
 

Kilo16

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Messages
17
Anyways, seeing this thread makes reminds me of something I brainstormed a couple days ago. What if you added, say, and extra Z button about the L trigger but wired it to the D-pad (up, left, right, or down direction)? Would that be legal? I was thinking about adding another Z button above the L trigger and taking some old B buttons from other controllers and putting them on the handle, where they would be wired to the D-pad's up, left/right, and down directions. Wouldn't this technically be legal, as you're only re-routing the buttons but they would still have the same functionality as the D-pad?
i do not know of the legality of this but i would see no logic to routing new buttons to the d pad for ssbb? As posted earlier in the topic, routing buttons to a move such as bdown or usmash is difficult since the joysticks work much in the way of a slot car accelerator works...u push the joystick and more and more of a connection is made allowing more current to flow thru...so idk how you would route that to a button. It would be very complex.

EDIT: just remembered you can edit the controls :p
 

Arcade

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 28, 2006
Messages
506
Location
North Dakota
Before I read this thread and found out that you could remove springs from the triggers, I used rubber bands to hold down the first stage of the shoulder buttons.
I actually like that idea a lot, considering I use the same controller for Brawl as Melee and the rest of my games.
 

UltiMario

Out of Obscurity
Joined
Sep 23, 2007
Messages
10,438
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Maryland
NNID
UltiMario
3DS FC
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This thread will eventually be closed, but I want to see the controller this guy is using before it actually does.

Pics plz.
 

-Kiros-

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
375
Location
i is creepin
I actually like that idea a lot, considering I use the same controller for Brawl as Melee and the rest of my games.
Glad you like it. I had to use like 4 rubber bands to do it right, and they feel weird when you first put them on. It's a pain to put them on and off though.

Anyways, does anyone have the official controller mod rules?
 

ika

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 10, 2010
Messages
3
I've always wanted to install a button above the L shoulder (where Z is on the right side, but on the left) to use a jump button. I've always thought it was a dumb decision to only include two shoulder buttons on ONE side of the controller. It would certainly make controlling aerials and air movement ATs easier...
 

Silly Wizard

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
7
Location
Boone, NC
I agree wholeheartedly with Ika. I still use tap-jump for playing, just because I don't want to use Y or X to do it. And I use L for shielding, so that's a no-no for me. . . .
 

TheBuzzSaw

Young Link Extraordinaire
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 21, 2005
Messages
10,478
Removing the shoulder springs was a big deal in Melee because it allowed players to bypass the weak/big shield and put up the small/strong shield faster. In Brawl, not only are the shield dynamics gone, controls can be remapped anyway. So, even if tournaments banned all controller mods, mapping the shield command to a non-analog control/button would solve that problem anyway.
 

Zeratulfenix

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Messages
21
Location
On a rock. QQ
Actually, I have a GC controller with 2 Z buttons (one of em is labeled 'M' or something weird like that) and thats just how I got it. It's the Nyko Air-Flo if youre curious. In game, it has the same function as the Z button. I recently set it to shield, and ****, it's way easier to powershield! Since the M button is on the left, I just move my index finger up and the muscle memory is the same.

(If you were wondering about my button layout, I use X for grabs, and R for jumping.)

EDIT: Heres a pic, you can see the purple buttons on both sides
 

omegawhitemage

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Apr 23, 2005
Messages
2,617
Whether the design choice of input registration by the development team in regards to shielding was good or bad should be irrelevant to this discussion. The game is what it is, and if you support allowing the removal of springs, you support non-default controllers. It's very simple.

In most fighting games, the rules for controllers are that they can be just about anything as long as it doesn't allow you to do something that would otherwise be impossible or somehow assist you directly in input. The line here is usually drawn at any sort of a macro that allows one button input to count for inputs on multiple frames. That is, if I want to use a button that presses down + B or A + X on the exact same frame when I hit it, that's fair game. If I want a button that presses Z every frame or inputs a perfect macro to do an optimum DACUS, that's not okay. In terms of how you physically make the buttons, the former cases are all just double wiring two things to the same output into the console. The latter cases are basically putting a chip in the controller and programming it. Of course, I don't know exactly how the GC controller is made; any custom controllers would have to only be able to accept exactly one analogue stick input press at a time (so holding right on the actual stick and pressing the down + B button has to have either the right or the down take priority and not consider both at once), and for the sake of true accuracy, LR and UD inputs from the dpad shouldn't be allowed either (though I can't imagine how they'd be helpful).

I think the other fighting game position on controllers is generally more sensible than what smash tournaments usually do, but if you support what smash tournaments usually do, allowing exactly one gameplay relevant modification (spring removal) while not allowing extra non-macro buttons or anything like that just strikes me as inconsistent. Time has mostly shown the option to have these sort of things is irrelevant since it at best barely improves performance (it's small enough that even at a high level, it really does not matter), and the cost of making such custom controllers is prohibitive for most people.

Do consider the fuzzy other cases as well. I know a local smasher who replaced his left stick with a second c-stick because he likes how it feels better. I've known of other people replacing the c-stick with a second left stick, and I've known of people who import sticks from Wii Remote Nunchucks because they are more responsive than GC sticks. You could have a sticky button on your controller; would installing a replacement button, potentially one of higher quality than the original one the controller came with, be against the rules?

You also have a small number of people wanting to use converters to play with non-Gamecube controllers which I find very hard to justify banning. I remember one guy on the forums a while back wanted to play with a N64 controller; why, honestly, should he be disallowed from that? I can really see why someone might want to use an Xbox360 controller, and there are always the group of crazy people who think PS2 controllers are something other than the biggest pieces of garbage we collectively have ever used as input devices for gaming.

In summary, the rules are restrictive usually, but they really shouldn't be.
So you might be my favorite poster on the boards, both in the BBR and here.

I pretty much agree with you completely on all of this. However I do wonder what you have against the PS2 controller, I happen to like it a lot. :(
 

Arcade

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 28, 2006
Messages
506
Location
North Dakota
Actually, I have a GC controller with 2 Z buttons (one of em is labeled 'M' or something weird like that) and thats just how I got it. It's the Nyko Air-Flo if youre curious. In game, it has the same function as the Z button. I recently set it to shield, and ****, it's way easier to powershield! Since the M button is on the left, I just move my index finger up and the muscle memory is the same.

(If you were wondering about my button layout, I use X for grabs, and R for jumping.)
Dang, I'm so jealous. If only I wasn't so used to playing with my own controller that it practically fused itself to my palms...
 
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