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Learning to read

DerfMidWest

Fresh ******
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
4,063
Location
Cleveland, OH
Slippi.gg
SOFA#941
I've read just about everything on here and watched tons of videos about reading my opponent...
I'm still terrible at it.

could somebody please explain it to me?
and tell me how I'm supposed to get good at it?

I'm able to read very simple playstyles, but nobody semi-decent at the game.
I've tried taking notes on matches and stuff to teach myself how to looks for patterns, but I'm not able to find any...
 

SamusPoop

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
134
Location
The twilight Zone
Just something to think of is when you die you can think about how they play/killed you for about 3 secs. Just keep track of their actions like how they approach the movement before the approach, how they counter your approach, projectile reactions, tech chases, recovery, how they react to said move/set-up and many times stuff will become 2nd nature to you.

Also like when you respawn keep track of their actions everytime if they jump or roll try to cover that and another option if you can.

How come phonics isn't spelled like how it sounds?
 

oukd

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 21, 2010
Messages
1,464
Reading is a combination of organizing your short-term and long-term knowledge of the game. Short-term is based on every action you pick up on during the match itself, and long-term is your knowledge of what the 'standard' action that the average player would go to in a given situation, accumulated over time (aka experience). There's also a combination/inbetween category dedicated to learning how specific smashers play...this is good for beating specific players that obstruct your progress in tournaments. <_<

You're already training your long-term knowledge simply by playing melee, so you're probably already doing better with guessing your opponent's reactions than when you barely played melee at all, so through that your reading is improving even if you can't tell yourself (unless you have severe memory loss issues or something). If you want to manually improve your short-term knowledge to get 'reads' for specific matches, you're going to have to teach yourself specific nuances to watch for. I personally suggest picking one specific thing to learn to 'read' at once (eg. the traditional example, if you're playing Falcon: keeping track of your opponent's reaction on your dthrow) and focus on that until it becomes second nature to you, then move on to the next. That way you're giving yourself something to watch for rather than glancing at any little thing your opponent does. These can range from being very specific (my example) to very broad (SamusPoop's suggestion of focusing on why you lose your stocks) and I suggest working from specific to broad. On the other hand, telling yourself to focus on every 'pattern' at once can be overwhelming, but it works for some people.
 

Beat!

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
3,214
Location
Uppsala, Sweden
Just play a lot and watch a ton of videos and you'll naturally learn common habits and patterns. If there are a few players you play all the time against then you'll eventually figure out their specific habits as well.

Just don't auto pilot too much and you'll notice that it comes with experience.
 

leffen

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
2,032
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
get in their head - realize how every move, every non-move, just standing there, just talking to them specifically triggers them. Figuring out that they roll a lot and that they sit in shield or that they copy X famous player to the letter is good, but its not gonna get you anywhere and thats what most average people do.

95% of mid level players who are decent/good at "reading" are just decent/good and punishing a few certain habits rather than actually reading/figuring out the player, and this makes them fail terribly and choke hard whenever someone doesn't play like most players and when they don't have those normal habits. They don't realize WHY they have those habits and WHAT THEY DO that makes their opponent do what they do and when faced with a match up or situation that they haven't played a billion times (which makes them punish the stereotype options by muscle memory) they often start choking and excuses like "omgIwasplayingsomuchworsethanusualIjustdidnthitanythingomgthey'resoluckyIwouldvewon" and more johns get **** all over the place (... fml everytime I hear that).


uh, random ramble that I don't have time to finish.
bye
 

SamusPoop

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
134
Location
The twilight Zone
Funny posts aren't funny. Most humor bores me anymore its predictable which way people will go before they get to the punchline.

But good stuff on leffen and dkuo or prefered dkuo and leffen.
 

The Star King

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
9,681
Practice in friendlies. Try to guess what your opponent will do and try to punish it. I think a lot of people play on autopilot most of the time in friendlies because they feel they would be able to observe the same amount in tournament matches regardless, as long as they focus 100%. But this isn't really true - reading is a skill like any other, and all fundamental skills require a lot of practice to get them down. You'll be able to pick up people's habits much more quickly when you're use to observing them.
 

ph00tbag

C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
7,244
Location
NC
There's a couple meanings of the word "read" (even within the context of playing the game). You can mean reading how your opponent is going to act, how your opponent is going to react, or how your opponent is going to adapt. These subsets of reading are just what I'm thinking of off the top of my head after a bottle of beer.

As far as reading your opponent's actions, this shouldn't be difficult. You should spend a few seconds at the beginning of the match watching your opponent's approach attempts, and trying to see what they're doing to bait out your responses, and what they're doing in response to your own baits. With this, you can gauge what they'll try to do to engage you, and modulate your game plan accordingly in order to win those engagements. This kind of reading isn't particularly difficult, but it's also a particularly important form of reading, because once you can shut down your opponent's initial game plan, you force them to adapt. More on that later.

Reading reactions is a bit more difficult, especially if the opponent is good at being random in their reactions. It deals in learning how your opponent responds to block strings, how they DI, how they tech, and any other situations that give them a limited number of response options. Basically, these are the reads that allow you to keep an advantageous situation in your favor. This type of read looks really super cool if you can do it consistently, but it's ultimately not super important if you've got the action read on lock, and they haven't adapted. Simply put, if you can always put your opponent into a bad position from neutral, you don't need to keep them in a bad position when they're already in one, because neutral is a bad position for them until they can adapt their game plan.

The most difficult form of read is reading adaptation. You need to be able to recognize when your reads on an opponent's initial game plan have stopped working because they've changed their game plan to counter you. Then you need to start from scratch again, and learn their new game plan, and learn to read their new actions. This requires that you constantly keep tabs on which strategies of yours are working, how often they're working and in what situations, and when they're not working, why they're not working. If you can't do this, you'll lose. And honestly, doing this is very hard work. The only thing that can prepare you for playing at this level consistently is to attempt to play at this level all the time until it is second nature. Thankfully, encountering people that can force you to play at this level consistently over the course of a set is incredibly rare, so you can work on this while sufficing with reading the actions in initial game plans.

I hope that helps.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
Reading in a general sense is mostly based around figuring out what your opponent's mindset is and how that funnels into their available relevant options. Once you know what their goal is (what they want - usually this is obvious and it's largely character dependent) and how they're trying to do it (the tricky part), you counter it.

I find one of the biggest mistakes noobs make with their efforts in reading is that they call a move by its attack but without considering what kind of move it is (full jumped, retreating, short hopped, etc) or what purpose it serves (control space, anti-pressure, panic, aggressively making up ground, etc). Smash moves are more complicated than just "fair"; we have a ton of ways to do fair. Don't tell me he's gonna fair; tell me how he's gonna fair and why.

Also, be mindful of when your wrong predictions are caused by mistakes and not them thinking. That's actually really important.
 

Zodiac

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
3,557
Here's my formula which works for me and take less and less time the more you practice.

-Pay attention, memorize habits, possibly lose
-Exploit habits and counter movements.
 

Krynxe

I can't pronounce it either
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
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4,903
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Lakewood, WA
3DS FC
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I was expecting a grammar nazi drama thread.
Why does swf have to have so many competent members?
 

SamusPoop

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
134
Location
The twilight Zone
Also knowing their level of tech skill helps a lot. Like if the marth can't shdfl well this is a sure sign you normally only have to space for grounded moves and a few nairs/fairs(much less than grabs/d-tilts).

Also I feel tomahanks/waveland back/forward can really mess up some sheild games and is a part of the mix-up/spacing game not abused enough. Like dd to avoid fox's nair range but if he wavelanded grab.

But its just knowing what they are spacing for.
 

DerfMidWest

Fresh ******
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Mar 31, 2011
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Slippi.gg
SOFA#941
thanks to those of you who took the thread seriously (namely, those of you who are not Bones0.), I think I understand reading a bit more now...
not as much as I'd like to, but I think I can figure it out.
 

Massive

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 11, 2006
Messages
2,833
Location
Kansas City, MO
There's a lot of good advice already, but I'll add a bit.

Reads in smash are simply understanding what options are available to your opponent and exploiting them. Each character and player have their own sets of strategies and moves that they are best with and do in a familiar order. Each subsequent move drastically narrows an opponents available options.

You would do well to familiarize yourself not only with what your opponent commonly does, but what their character is capable of in any situation. It's for this reason I'm a huge proponent of cross-training with multiple characters, it gives you perspective and allows you to see the opponent's available options more easily than just playing against them.

A lot of people focus more on the offensive part of reads, but I highly recommend you practice on defensive reads. Reading a techroll on a platform or dairing a tricky recovery are fine and good, but if you can predict their approach and wavedash back or manipulate your shield in a way to allow a shieldgrab, you're going to create more opportunities for offense by having a good defense.
 

Vermanubis

King of Evil
BRoomer
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Vermanubis
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I'm not a Melee player, but the concept of reading is pretty universal, so I think I might be able to offer some insight.

Reading consists of three basic facets:

-Recognition of opponent's options
-Recognition of your own actions in response to aforementioned options
-Modeling of your opponent's competence

For one and two, it's as (theoretically) simple as considering what your opponent's options are in a given situation and how they will likely respond to a given situation given how competent you feel that they are. The hard part is adapting to your opponent's competence level, learning MU specific reads and acquiring a talent for quickly calculating each possibility and choosing the most appropriate option in that context (for instance, an ostensibly "dumb" move, such as an obvious choice that could easily be read, may sometimes be the smart choice if made for the reasons [such as your opponent be ingenious enough to know it's stupid enough to work against a fellow competent player])

For an example on the modes of player competence, I was just playing my brother in SSFIV. He's new to fighting games (competitively) and his grasp on reads, prediction, conditioning and the like are pretty shallow. With that in mind, I know that he'll make knee-jerk movements, like instinctively doing wake-up attacks, and getting nervous when I pressure him, so he jumps in a lot. Were he an expert, he'd probably make less obvious choices, or even sometimes deliberately make dumb choices to throw me off of my game because I didn't think he'd take such a risk, which would necessitate a change in plan of action for me.

So, everything I said can be said in brevity:

-Understand your opponent's options
-Keep track of what you've done against your opponent thus far, as no given movement or option is inherently dumb or smart, but is made so by context
-Consciously practice thinking about what a person would do in a variety of mental states and in a variety of situations. I'm a Ganon main in Brawl, so when I land a Side-B (which we lovingly invoke as the Gerudo choke :ganondorf:) people usually panic because it sets them up for a read, so they make reactions that one would make instinctively, which makes for an easier read. A person who's calm, a person who is frustrated and a person who is incompetent will all make potentially different decisions. So you have to gauge your opponent's state of mind, competence level and what you've done thus far that would condition him/her to believe you're going to choose a specific option, so that they will act in accordance with their potentially mistaken prediction, and you can punish them for it.

It all sounds terribly complicated, but it's something that comes with practice. Like lifting weights or playing an instrument, your muscles and fingers feel as if the weight and speed of their respective tasks is just too great to accomplish or even imagine, but after time, it just simply becomes possible. Your mind has a brilliant way of ameliorating itself without you even knowing it. It just, again, requires conscience practice and <thought>, even if that thought isn't while playing a match. Reading is an art; not a science. So it takes practice, experience and application. If someone's a tough piece'a meat, and they make a habit of seeming to avoid every read, it's because you're going for too many hard reads; sometimes you gotta soften 'em up a bit. Sometimes non-action is the best action, and sometimes, you've gotta aim to miss, if that makes any sense; not everyone's gonna sell their habits, so you've gotta tenderize them a bit (hopefully you're able to follow my written acrobatics lol).
 

Channighan

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Messages
598
Location
Kathleen, Georgia
A LOT of people roll away from the ledge, because that's a lot of people's first instincts. Smashers have to train themselves into thinking "don't roll when near the ledge", but that's one habit that even pros will SOMETIMES ignore when they're being pressured too hard. I see as.

:phone:
 
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