Learning Advanced Techniques with Doc

[St. Viers]

yes

learning them is one thing...learning to use the is something else entirely

 

[KirbySSB]

Also, ever since Ive been doing this new techniques ive been getting REALLY ****y, is that normal? Will i get better with time?

yes that is normal, and yes you will get better assuming you play good people

 

[chu12ch]

about the shbawd and the wavelanding pills I thought it was impossible at first too... after watching that vid it made me change the way i hold the controller and learn how to play all over again... now i push jump with my index finger, which allows my thumb to instantly pill or bair... doing that has made it so easy to do those tricks (the hard part was learning how to short hop with ur index finger)...

 

[Kashakunaki]

Chu12ch: It isn't necessary to hold the controller like that. As a matter of fact, in the long run it would be worse. Better to cross a few more hurdles and have a more satisfying victory than to cut across and have less of one. It is just finger speed.

Sneakz: Yes. Whenever you learn new techniques it is almost guareenteed you will suck a lot more at the beginning. But don't cower! Just keep practicing and doing them in battle and eventually your game will get much better.

 

[chu12ch]

that's how i play all other games with a controller, then i thought, why does smash bros get played with a normal grip...

 

[Sneakz]

Nice alright, Ill keep trying to implement these tricks, ill take the loses but eventually ill get better, might even hold the controller different way too cause theres no way im going to be able to push why with my thumb and then push the a or b buton right at the second, oh yah i jump with y and dodge with L just so you know and my thumb hits all buttons on the controller.

 

[marthsword]

Ill add some techs.

Short hop double Aerial: Some characters (Samus, Sheik, Zelda, Luigi to name a few) can Fit 2 aerials in one Short hop. Luigi can fit any too aerials as long as they don't start with a Neutral Aerial. Sheik can only do it with her Forward Air. Zelda can use Two Back Airs or Two Fairs, or Both. Her Bair comes out 4 frames faster, but that's off topic.

Doc is only a semi-floaty character. His back aerial is his fastest aerial, (why you can only do SHABAWD with the bair) and his Netural Aerial has the least startup lag. To short hop double aerial, jump and as soon as you can use your Back aerial. As soon as that is over, tap A. You should fit two aerials in one short hop!

Unfortunately, there isn't much use for this, considering the fact that the Back Aerial knocks the opponent away a good distance. The only use I can think of now is against an opponent with their shield up, both aerials hit them. Now I will explain sheild stun.

Sheild Stun: When you attack a shielding opponent, they are stunned inside their shield. The lag of being stuck inside their sheild lasts about 1/4 second? Correct me doc experts (Smashmac) if I am incorrect. Shield stun actually explains some combos about falco, the only reason I am writing this is a good falco will use these.

Falco has an attack called Short hop Laser, or SHL. Falco short hops, shoots a laser, and fast falls. The landing lag is canceled out from the laser. This way falco can attack with his amazing lasers MUCH faster. He can also be very speedy by running SHLing. IF the opponent shields, and the lasers hit him, they will have shield stun. This gives a falco a chance to pillar.

Pillaring: The falco uses his Shine (Down B) and short hops out of it. He uses his down aerial, and fast falls and L cancels. This is the process of breaking the opponents shield. Since then pillaring has been used to describe the combo of Shine > Downward Aerial. This is the incorrect definition, but used very commonly.

So, that's what I have to add.

 

[Sneakz]

Thanks Marth, Ive learned alot of new thanks to this topic, thanks to all.

I actually sometimes do combos i wasn't able to do before such as running SH a pill stunning fox while he jumps then do a crouched canceled D-Smash move. Its so cool, but I still cant control most of these new tricks (like landing from a jump but doing a WD before hitting ground). But with time Ill get better, and I can see my skills getting better slowly, and my pill game is off the charts.

Thanks
Sneakz

 

[Z-N_Freak]

Short Hopping a Pill can never result in real combo's....

 

[Kashakunaki]

It could theoratically lead to a jab combo, but that's beside the point. It's good to hear you are getting better Sneakz. As a matter of fact, I just got back from a tournament. Unfortunately, I didn't fair too well. But I blame it on my matchups. I wasn't confident enough in Falco so I went Doc only.

First match was a Peach (**** life). I won that.
Second was Ice Climbers then Shiek. I almost beat IC (Should've) and then Shiek two stocked me on my own counter pick stage (Corneria).
Third I won (against a marth, **** life).
Fourth I lost against a Marth then a Samus.

I forgot to bring my camcorder so I could share some videos. There was some good stuff. Perphaps next time.

Sneakz, where do you live again? I might be heading up to Oklahoma in June for my first out of state tournament.

 

[Roadkill9008]

i need help

any1 good tips on how to b a better doc user

 

[Kashakunaki]

...Something tells me that you won't ever even come back to this topic, but read the stickied guides at the beginning of this board.

 

[Sneakz]

Alright Ive Returned with good news

Im getting a hang of crouch cancelling and my pill!

Its friggen awesome how they go togethere, At first I run up full jump with a Pill It lands right on their head and then I if i still have air time F-Air then Smackin dem good or I land and C-Stick a D-Smash ... I follow up with dash attacks a SH U-Airs, Im lovin it I kick *** but Im still garbage at wavedashing. Ill get better soon but my game is off the charts, but unfourtuanetly after awhile of my freind getting his *** kicked he started learning technicques with fox and now he can do the stuff i can but more fox related techniques like Shining me off when im trying to recover O_o man thats a ***** cant handel that, i usuall try to fast fall down then up - B under his shine so he gets hit and i recover and have a chance to edge guard him.

Also I enjoy punishing my freinds SHFF moves (not shffl) and dash attacks by Crouch cancelling his moves and following up with a C-Sticked D-Smash move Gotta give credit to my B-Air and F-Air for being so resourceful and crazy good. But all around the pill kicks *** it cant be stopped only dodge and if you do now that you lagged prepare to be smashed.


Its beatiful thanks for all you help ppl espicaly those he gave out tips that helped them, those who posted videos, and those who awnsered my questions Thanks Alot

 

[Sneakz]

Also I live in Toronto Ontario and To bad about your tourny Kashakunaki good luck on your next tourny

 

[Kashakunaki]

Awesome, Sneakz. That is indeed great news! It shows that you and your friend and starting to become more competitive. Getting into the true nature of Smash. Soon enough, you'll be picture perfect with tech and have to move on to mindgames. That's where things get tricky. I wish the best of luck to you and your friend. Remember, we are still here to help.

Thanks. It's okay. New Mexico finally got their power rankings up and I'm 9th best in the state. WOO! I've also got two tournaments in my area in March (March 18th and 31st). So if I can go to those I can not only shoot up in the power rankings but get some good practice in. Some videos would be nice as well.

 

[Sneakz]

9th best in your state? thats great, wow ... do you know who number 1 is in your state? Do you know who number 1 in all of North America? What characters do they use?

 

[chu12ch]

Okay, i recently got back into doc this past week and i have a question... With uair juggles do i have to lcancel them? or does the animation end before i hit the floor...

 

[Ronin686]

Do you know who number 1 in all of North America? What characters do they use?

That would be Ken with Marth, heh.

Okay, i recently got back into doc this past week and i have a question... With uair juggles do i have to lcancel them? or does the animation end before i hit the floor...

You do not need to L cancel it if you do it right after you leave the ground.

 

[Sneakz]

His name is Ken, seriously? I expected something you know ... not so normal or anime'ish .... but w/e a name is just a name.

and Marth is the character he used? does that make marth the best character? or Is it cause he was just good. BTW is there like a ranking list for all melee characters? whos the best? whos the worst? what does Doc rank?



BTW has there every been a WORLD melee tournament? O_o? I dont know how that one would be arranged but juussssst checkin

 

[chu12ch]

Thanks about the l-cancel info...

And no just because he did the best with marth doesnt make him the best, he's (ken) been going on a downfall recently and others have caught up to him...

For the list of characters go search for a tier list, off the top of my head it goes like: (edit Heres the thread http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=81928&highlight=tier)
Fox
Falco
Shiek
Marth
Peach
C Falcon
(this is where it gets fuzzy)
Ice Climbers
Doc
Jigglypuff
Mario
Ganon
(skipping a lot... now at the bottom)
Kirby
Bowser
Pichu
Mewtwo...

thats just what i think it said it was, but just check to make sure...

 

[Sneakz]

Thanks Chu12ch

Top Tier:
Fox
Falco

High Tier:
Sheik
Marth
Peach

Middle Tier:
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers
Samus
Doctor Mario
Jigglypuff
Mario
Ganondorf

Low Tier:
Link
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Roy
Young Link
Pikachu

Bottom Tier:
Yoshi
Zelda
Mr. Game and Watch
Ness
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu
Mewtwo




Well Im not gonna crazy saying OMG THIS IS WRONG and stuff because I know who ever made it must have done alot of research but, does the fact that Doc can easily *** up Fox and Falco's Recovery effect this list at all? My freind NEVER uses Up-B at any angle I could ever reach it, ( I even jump and cape if I have to) He usually uses his Down-B but If i have great enough timing I can cape that to (Happens more then you think)

 

[Sneakz]

One more quick question, anyone know what to do with a Peach? My other freind (Who can wavedash perfectly, but just doesnt know how to use it well) Uses a bunch of Characs (Falco, Peach, Luigi)

I can work him over his lugi and falco easily, but not his peach, I cant get close because over her dam turnip things and her close range moves are odd, and I screw myself over everytime I crouch cancell ( Get D-Smashed off the screen) WHAT DO I DO, i cant think of any strategies, i usually just pill attack and run, but I enjoy comboing and I cant start up combos easily on peach even If i do she just floats to much when I knock her up and stuff, AND HOW DO I EDGE GUARD HER? Cape i out of the question .... my freind jus floats in from the top of the screen ( we play ALWAYS on final destination) and try to predict where shes gonna land but doesnt usually work out .... what do i do

 

[chu12ch]

The fact that doc can use his surgical towel (id rather call it that than a cape) on fox/falco is probably taken into account, but its not as effective against many others... as for peach, i cant really help much... I just shoot as many pills as possible, towel turnips (then catch if they're stitches or dots, and wait for her to do a move with enough lag to waveland in with a dsmash... hopefully that sends her low enough to edgeguard (with a bunch of b-airs of course)...
Hopefully that helps... If you can, try to get some video of a game or two so we can actually see what you might need help with... (it worked for me)

 

[Kashakunaki]

9th best in your state? thats great, wow ... do you know who number 1 is in your state? Do you know who number 1 in all of North America? What characters do they use?

My state is not the best, but I think of it as an accomplish. Number one in my state, New Mexico, is AllAboutPeach who uses Peach and Shiek.

The best in North America is Ken who uses both Marth and Fox.

As for the world tournament, there are tournaments, like MLG (Major League Gaming), which the Japanese attend sometimes. However, I don't think there has ever been a completely international tournament where people from across the world have come. That'd be great, though.

As for Peach, I can help. I fight Peach ALL THE TIME, thank goodness. If I didn't have a friend who uses her as a second I would lose to Peach everytime. Gayest character ever.

First, don't ever crouch cancel near a Peach, that is, unless you like 80 percent damage in one attack. Also, pill. Force her into the air. Keep control of the ground. Once she is in the air hit her with an aerial to knock out her float. She is a lot easier to control then. Try to hit her horizontally off the stage, like with a downsmash, tilt, filt, etc. Try to keep from hitting her out and up unless you know it will kill. Fair is nice, but hard to land.

Now, Peach is a floaty character. Doc has nice jab combos. What is a jab combo? It's when you do the first two parts (or one) of his neutral A. Punch, punch. It props the opponent into the air and puts them in your control. You can easily follow up with a downsmash or grab at this point. It works better on some characters more than others, like floaties (Peach and Marth are good floaty examples). Do this to get the upper hand. I have a Monopoly game to go play now, but I hope this is good enough information for you.

 

[Sneakz]

Thanks chu for the insight, but I really wont pay attention to that tier list, If i did I'd probably drop Doc and pick up on Fox :S not gonna happen anytime soon, Doc kicks ***.

Thanks for the peach help Kashakunaki, I usually hang out with my freinds on the weekends and seeing as I dont go to the same school as them, I rarely see em on week days.

Jab combos? WOW i though Jab combos was just A-A-A ... not A-A and D-Smash or grab, im going try that out for sure, It should work well on characters like lugi and peach right? not a fox? Cause I wanna know if its possible to pull off? Like if I were to do it would some one be able to C-stick smash me after the A-A?

Thanks

 

[chu12ch]

jab combos should work well on a bunch of people, but just make sure to mix it up... dsmash after the 1st hit one time, then the 2nd hit next...
And yeah, the tier list is just a measure of the maximum skill... so if ur better with doc than ur opponent is with fox, you should do fine... especially with that amazing surgical towel...

 

[Kashakunaki]

Surgical towel... you're such an outcast, dude.

Anyways, yeah. Jab combos are mircale workers. Most definitely work them into your gameplay. They are a huge factor into why I beat Marths and Peachs half the time.

 

[chu12ch]

what use would a doctor have for a cape... its not like he flies or anything... he needs to wipe the sweat off his head when hes operating though...

 

[SmashMac]

Another interesting tactic to implement in your game would be the use of taking advantage of animations/frames as far as moves go and their duration. What I mean by this is, say you're going to use Doc's dair. His dair is odd in the sense that it has an awkward L-cancel to it. The L-cancel always seems to feel a bit weird. Now, if you were to know the exact duration of the animation of his dair, you could start it (the move and it’s animation) so that by the time you end it, you would've gotten the effect that you wanted from it. However, since the animation would end before you hit the ground, you wouldn't really have to L-cancel. Nevertheless, you would be able to instantaneously react when you hit the floor. This really helps since there aren’t any frames of lag once you hit the floor (maybe 1 frame). If you tried to use this tactic in your game with Doc’s moves and took advantage of the animation’s durations in the right manner, you’d have an easier time, at least as far as set-ups, combos, and grabs go.

 

[Sneakz]

lol at surgical towel, I call it the "Flag" :S .... cause you know i thought marios was the "cape" ... and his was like a flag .... weird but you cant break habits so yah lol

Thanks SmashMac I dont think Ill ever be able to figure out how long it takes for the drill to start and end .... ( lets say it was 5 sec) and then time my attack so it takes me exactly 5 seconds for me to start the attack and hit the ground .... but thanks for the idea anyway, has anyone actually done things such as that with the characters? and would that be better then just L-cancelling anyway?

 

[Sneakz]

O_o Oh **** I ranked up NICE no more n00b beside my name

 

[chu12ch]

yeah, i've been doing that recently... it reminds me of float cancelling with peach, in terms of the lag...

 

[taylorb9113]

I'd just like to say that this was a helpful thread, as I just starting playing Doc ..yesterday.

I think Pills are great combo starters. I like to Jump -> Pill -> Grab because they either shield or get stunned for a second usually.

I can Wavedash/Waveland alright, not near as good as I would like though. I don't really use it much in combat though, because I'm not too great with it. Practicing with Ice Climbers/Luigi made it easier to WD with everyone, in my opinion >.>

Anyways, I was trying to respond to half the things here in one post.
Thanks for the info, everyone. Good luck with your Smashing.

 

[Sneakz]

Thanks for the input taylorb

... feel free to keep posting hints and tricks, this IS my first ever topic and I just dont want to see it die sooo yah...

Also, if anyone knows. how to exactly Up-B cancell? I hear that you must smash the stick in the oppisite direction of you Up-B ... but it just aint working for me ... am I doing it to slow? or even to early?

 

[chu12ch]

ur doing it too slow...

 

[Sneakz]

<_< been practicin for like an 1h now ... still cant do it -_-' do i have to jam left then right (vice-versa) while doing Up-B? cause i REALLY cant do it, my freind managed to do it once ..... only once

 

[Kashakunaki]

Sneakz, don't go left and right. You want to guide the control stick in the opposite direction of your Up B. For example, if you Up B to the right, pushing your controller diagonally up and to the right, you want to pull it back diagonally down and to the left. Vice versa also holds true. If you Up B to the left by hitting the control stick diagonally up and to the left, then guide the control stick down and to the right to cancel. I believe this has to be done in a four frame time limit.

 

[Sneakz]

Oh ok, I get it thanks alot, Im doing it a bit more then i did before (all i needed to do was get 1 to do alot better then before >_>), but still not with a high success rate, so ill keep practicing

I kicked both my freinds ***** pretty bad over the last month, they werent even on my level untill last saturday after a party, one of my freinds ( the fox player) figured how to predict and punish my all to predictable Sheild grabs, and Crouch Cancell tatics. The pill still holds its ground but its not to effective on fox, since i get hit real bad if miss or if he runs under it.

So what do i do? ... I know im not really giving any info on what HES doing, but I cant seem to pin point it, it has to do alot with his jumping and learning proper usues of his shine ( HE NEVER USED IT BEFORE LOL, well sometimes on my recoviers, he though he invented that idea to shine guard off the edge <_< ) and hes faster use of the c-stick ( i still do it faster then him but some times I ... i ... sort of lag or something O_o i just dont react as fast as i should.


Well thats the best i can tell you, maybe a couple new stratiges in game can help? I sort of gave up on the B-Air SH Wavedashed strategy thing cause, i simply suck at wavedashing, except after landing from a FULL JUMPED A move or wavedashing after holding the edge and jumping on to the stage. So yah any tips would be helpful

Thx
SneakZ

 

[chu12ch]

I really hope you dont abandon learning the SHBAWD... it's hard to get at first, but when you do eventually get it, it makes you so much faster...

To me, there is nothing more satisfying than shbawding someone off the stage, then edgeguarding with a falling bair, and a double jumped bair (only to up+b in the wrong direction, but it's still the greatest)...

 

[Bullet Bill]

Oh ok, I get it thanks alot, Im doing it a bit more then i did before (all i needed to do was get 1 to do alot better then before >_>), but still not with a high success rate, so ill keep practicing

I kicked both my freinds ***** pretty bad over the last month, they werent even on my level untill last saturday after a party, one of my freinds ( the fox player) figured how to predict and punish my all to predictable Sheild grabs, and Crouch Cancell tatics. The pill still holds its ground but its not to effective on fox, since i get hit real bad if miss or if he runs under it.

So what do i do? ... I know im not really giving any info on what HES doing, but I cant seem to pin point it, it has to do alot with his jumping and learning proper usues of his shine ( HE NEVER USED IT BEFORE LOL, well sometimes on my recoviers, he though he invented that idea to shine guard off the edge <_< ) and hes faster use of the c-stick ( i still do it faster then him but some times I ... i ... sort of lag or something O_o i just dont react as fast as i should.


Well thats the best i can tell you, maybe a couple new stratiges in game can help? I sort of gave up on the B-Air SH Wavedashed strategy thing cause, i simply suck at wavedashing, except after landing from a FULL JUMPED A move or wavedashing after holding the edge and jumping on to the stage. So yah any tips would be helpful

Thx
SneakZ

I play agianst fox all the time. Try to mix up the pills by throwing some on whilst standing and some whilst jumping. Short hop pills work well against fox. Yeah, he can shine them, but the pills usually hit themselves leaving you with an opportunity to grab. Remember, the fox would always prefer to run under the pills than jump over them so lower trajectory pills should be favoured. Don't forget to stop pilling the moment he gets close