That was Windrose. And it did advertise your blog Scar, the whole chat ended up talking about it haha.Forget who but some falcon used the lean tag at the 6-4 match up tourney in Toronto today. He lost.
But it got the chat talking
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Lean Melee - Please submit your questions about how to improve! Yes, you personally!
- Thread starter Scar
- Start date
Windrose
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2009
- Messages
- 1,470
I just can't get a break in the peach matchup. I have very little experience against her. Since you guys were watching that stream, what could I have done better? the videos aren't up yet I think...
Anything major stuff you guys noticed that was wrong?
EDIT:
-I didn't know there was some initiative to get people to use the LEAN tag. I just used it to remind me to employ some stuff from scar's recent tournament videos. It was just a coincidence.
Anything major stuff you guys noticed that was wrong?
EDIT:
-I didn't know there was some initiative to get people to use the LEAN tag. I just used it to remind me to employ some stuff from scar's recent tournament videos. It was just a coincidence.
Mr. Ganondorf
Smash Journeyman
If anyone plays tennis and has read Brad Gilbert's book about Winning Ugly: Mental Warfare in Tennis, I'd be really interested to hear Scar's thoughts on that stuff. I am so thankful that he's taken a thinking man's approach to introspection, practice, habits and improving at competitive Melee. But I wonder about the other side of the coin, like how to take advantage of an opponent when their focus is down. In Winning Ugly, he talks about the "wounded bear vs the person in the lead" mentalities. How people tend to get complacent when in the lead and can fall prey to an opponent determined to make a comeback because they are hungry.
EDIT: When I return to competitive Smash in the fall, I'd like to use the LEAN tag because I agree it's a good reminder to work on playing habits.
EDIT: When I return to competitive Smash in the fall, I'd like to use the LEAN tag because I agree it's a good reminder to work on playing habits.
Inty17
Smash Journeyman
And people say Smash doesn't help you with your life. I love you Scar. :D
Scar
#HarveyDent
thanks everyone for the positive feedback. i'm really excited to continue posting, and i'd love to see more comments on wordpress. here are the next few posts i plan on making, and a summary of them. let me know if you're more interested in one or the other, or if you have any feedback on these.
"Small batch sizes" and the "MVP" (Minimum Viable Product)
The example post showed going through a full feedback loop. The timeline of the entire story was about 10 hours. I thought about what the problem was on the train home, called Tafokints and Darrell and asked them to come over, and started tracking right away. I didn't need to play the best players in the region, I didn't need to make any elaborate plan for how to start focusing, I just needed to start collecting data, and it worked. It's possible that other things would have worked too, but this was real improvement in a few hours. Lean works best when you invest the minimum amount to find out if you're on the right track.
Skill Pyramid and the value of a strong foundation
I believe that skill in competitive gaming is a hierarchy, and results come from building up from a strong foundation. The pyramid as I see it is this:
0: Focus and Tech
1: Strategy and Creativity
2: Adaptation
I'll talk about how I think they work together, and how each level supports the one on top of it. This is going to be subject to a lot of discussion, because it's speculation on my part. I expect that we should discuss the different aspects of "skill" and figure out how they should be set up as a general rule.
Lean as a framework
I think I'd do well to make a post explaining that Lean is a framework built to efficiently diagnose major problems and fix them. Lean is not a way to start winning a few more games quickly, it requires discipline and a good bit of work. This post will be about my idea of how to use lean effectively, and again should be open to discussion as more people start dabbling with the framework.
Q&A
I've received a few questions and comments through PM or through my thread, so I'd like to make posts here and there responding to questions.
"Small batch sizes" and the "MVP" (Minimum Viable Product)
The example post showed going through a full feedback loop. The timeline of the entire story was about 10 hours. I thought about what the problem was on the train home, called Tafokints and Darrell and asked them to come over, and started tracking right away. I didn't need to play the best players in the region, I didn't need to make any elaborate plan for how to start focusing, I just needed to start collecting data, and it worked. It's possible that other things would have worked too, but this was real improvement in a few hours. Lean works best when you invest the minimum amount to find out if you're on the right track.
Skill Pyramid and the value of a strong foundation
I believe that skill in competitive gaming is a hierarchy, and results come from building up from a strong foundation. The pyramid as I see it is this:
0: Focus and Tech
1: Strategy and Creativity
2: Adaptation
I'll talk about how I think they work together, and how each level supports the one on top of it. This is going to be subject to a lot of discussion, because it's speculation on my part. I expect that we should discuss the different aspects of "skill" and figure out how they should be set up as a general rule.
Lean as a framework
I think I'd do well to make a post explaining that Lean is a framework built to efficiently diagnose major problems and fix them. Lean is not a way to start winning a few more games quickly, it requires discipline and a good bit of work. This post will be about my idea of how to use lean effectively, and again should be open to discussion as more people start dabbling with the framework.
Q&A
I've received a few questions and comments through PM or through my thread, so I'd like to make posts here and there responding to questions.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Keeping focus in matches is really hard for me. I think it's probably one of my numerous 'biggest weaknesses'.
God damn it.
God damn it.
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
But with an avatar like that you win sooo hard.
FrootLoop
Smash Lord
I feel most everyone goes through those skill tree stages when they are learning a technique:
0: how to do it (tech)
1: when it's good (strategy)
2: what to do when people catch on to it (adaptation)
0: how to do it (tech)
1: when it's good (strategy)
2: what to do when people catch on to it (adaptation)
Kels88
Smash Lord
I think this is a great thread. Now i understand why i almost lose matches once i get a 2 stock lead on my opponent. And it also helped me a lot this past weekend. Maintaining focus is so hard for me to do for extended periods of time.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
Thinking while playing is exactly where I gain the most improvement. "Why am I getting hit? What am I doing that I am being punished for? Why am I losing?" etc.
The ideology of removing everything that is not helping you to achieve victory is an excellent one and will definitely help. Unfortunately, at a higher level it's more difficult to decide what to do rather than what not to do.
I focus very hard in almost any tournament set. At locals I mess around a bit in pools and round 1 bracket usually but never afterward. Due to this I am always extremely exhausted (mentally) at the end of the tournament, and usually by finals even. This is my biggest weakness right now; stamina.
The ideology of removing everything that is not helping you to achieve victory is an excellent one and will definitely help. Unfortunately, at a higher level it's more difficult to decide what to do rather than what not to do.
I focus very hard in almost any tournament set. At locals I mess around a bit in pools and round 1 bracket usually but never afterward. Due to this I am always extremely exhausted (mentally) at the end of the tournament, and usually by finals even. This is my biggest weakness right now; stamina.
tarheeljks
Smash Lord
this sounds interesting. def wnat to check this out in addition to lean b/c of popular sports i think melee is most similar to tennis
Scar
#HarveyDent
Updated 2/27: Small Batch Sizes
http://leanmelee.wordpress.com/2012/02/27/lean-as-a-framework-and-small-batch-sizes/
Please post your feedback in the thread or in the blog's comments if you can!
http://leanmelee.wordpress.com/2012/02/27/lean-as-a-framework-and-small-batch-sizes/
Please post your feedback in the thread or in the blog's comments if you can!
Violence
Smash Lord
I am definitely going to apply this, personally.
Great read, Bobby. This blog *****.
Great read, Bobby. This blog *****.
BobbySiege
Smash Rookie
Blog is well thought out and well delivered. Excellent work Bobby.
Scar
#HarveyDent
Really? Are they technical terms (validated learning) or what? lol Suggestions?
I did read some parts from the blog. Really fun to se people care about stuff like this. I also would be happy if this turns out really good.
The thing about "not thinking" is something that makes me wonder if I use the right strategy. People maybe wonder if it's true but I actually NEVER think while Im playing. I don't know if this is leading to some good things but also some bad things.
Maybe not thinking is better for concentration but thinking is better to se habbits and you should not overuse any of them. Well I will follow the blog and rethink a lot of things to be sure Im doing the right thing =)
The thing about "not thinking" is something that makes me wonder if I use the right strategy. People maybe wonder if it's true but I actually NEVER think while Im playing. I don't know if this is leading to some good things but also some bad things.
Maybe not thinking is better for concentration but thinking is better to se habbits and you should not overuse any of them. Well I will follow the blog and rethink a lot of things to be sure Im doing the right thing =)
commonyoshi
Smash Hero
Lol Armada, dont fix what isn't broken. 
KrIsP!
Smash Champion
lol Armada, didn't you read the blog? People need ot use this to improve faster than the likes of you to get near your level. Give everyone a chance.
D
Deleted member
Guest
@Scar:
I agree with this idea in some ways, and disagree with it in others.
That said, you're doing a good job of what you're doing so far in the implied sense that you're being honest. If it's a lie, it's a very good one and you have me fooled.
I actually have a lot of insight I'd like to share with you on this on aim sometime.
Just consider the ramifications of what you are doing. As a fellow economist, you should understand the costs of your posts and blog updates.
I'll read the book sometime in the next couple weeks so we'll have more to talk about.
I agree with this idea in some ways, and disagree with it in others.
That said, you're doing a good job of what you're doing so far in the implied sense that you're being honest. If it's a lie, it's a very good one and you have me fooled.
I actually have a lot of insight I'd like to share with you on this on aim sometime.
Just consider the ramifications of what you are doing. As a fellow economist, you should understand the costs of your posts and blog updates.
I'll read the book sometime in the next couple weeks so we'll have more to talk about.
Scar
#HarveyDent
@the economics, I'm happy to provide a framework for everyone to improve. I don't care about being the best personally, though I think it would be cool for me to use my framework to be really good and then share -- I guess I jumped the gun there, but also Lean isn't going to help anyone who doesn't have dedication and hard work behind them. If I can enable players to reach their potential, then I think I've achieved my goal in writing the blog, and I'll be happy to play it out in tournament and lose if they're the better player. I'm also not sure what I could be lying about lol.
Also @Mow, I haven't really explained everything yet, so maybe some of the things you disagree with will be addressed in future posts. You have my AIM, I'm usually on
@Armada, I'm going to write a post soon about how I model the interaction between strategy, tech skill, focus, and creativity. It seems to me that if you don't think at all, then you have a pretty powerful strategy in all situations you recognize, and you can recognize a lot of situations. This is a solid substitute for thinking as far as I can tell. I clearly wasn't able to do well in tournament without it, so I'm giving it a shot now, and it's working well for me.
Also @Mow, I haven't really explained everything yet, so maybe some of the things you disagree with will be addressed in future posts. You have my AIM, I'm usually on
@Armada, I'm going to write a post soon about how I model the interaction between strategy, tech skill, focus, and creativity. It seems to me that if you don't think at all, then you have a pretty powerful strategy in all situations you recognize, and you can recognize a lot of situations. This is a solid substitute for thinking as far as I can tell. I clearly wasn't able to do well in tournament without it, so I'm giving it a shot now, and it's working well for me.
Bones0
Smash Legend
This is such a 2nd place attitude.Lol Armada, dont fix what isn't broken.
I think it's a first place attitude.
Don't fix what isn't broken. That means leave what works alone. Transitively it means fix what is broken. If you improve the broken parts of your game, and keep the functioning parts of it, you are left with gameplay that works.
And since that was directed at Armada, who is currently #1, "you are left with gameplay that works" means you are left with gameplay that will qualify you to be the best in the world.
pretty first place imo if you interpret it the way I did
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Armada can't fix broken pieces of his gameplay, because he doesn't have any
Therefore he looks to improve everything, which can be improved!
And us poor guys scramble and have the biggest problems to even understand where our problems are ...
Does anybody have any good tips at realizing ones mistakes, if one doesns't have acess to videos of his play? I think I'm realizing most of my problems by thinking a bit about matches, but I am not sure if I catch them all.
Therefore he looks to improve everything, which can be improved!
And us poor guys scramble and have the biggest problems to even understand where our problems are ...
Does anybody have any good tips at realizing ones mistakes, if one doesns't have acess to videos of his play? I think I'm realizing most of my problems by thinking a bit about matches, but I am not sure if I catch them all.
KrIsP!
Smash Champion
^Whateve rmade you lose. That.
Scar
#HarveyDent
Xyzz, I think that videos are extremely important, but if you don't have access to any, I highly recommend taking specific notes during games, or immediately after matches, when your memory is fresh. I think it's a severe disadvantage, though.
Scar
#HarveyDent
Update - Help me blog lean!
http://leanmelee.wordpress.com/2012/02/29/lean-blogging-feedback-and-qa/
Tonight I'll be posting about the importance of reliable tech skill. Please post questions! I'd love to give my perspective on your situation to tailor the blog to the reader.
http://leanmelee.wordpress.com/2012/02/29/lean-blogging-feedback-and-qa/
Tonight I'll be posting about the importance of reliable tech skill. Please post questions! I'd love to give my perspective on your situation to tailor the blog to the reader.
boomrested
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2011
- Messages
- 215
Great job Scar. More people should read this, it does exactly what it's intended to: be a framework for finding what works in your playstyle, and what doesn't. If possible, could you do a post about measuring the success of ideas? You made a very clear point about testing new ideas out quickly after you've identified the root problem of your playstyle. What you didn't make clear is how you take that tested idea, and after those 6-odd hours of playing with another smasher from your area, make a clear decision about which ideas are worth keeping. Did you use the feedback loop, a scoring system, or just plain instinct? It would just be helpful if you elaborated on what to do after testing out new ideas. Example would be great.
Scar
#HarveyDent
@Boomrested, I made a new post to attempt to answer this.
http://leanmelee.wordpress.com/2012/02/29/measuring-success-and-failure/
http://leanmelee.wordpress.com/2012/02/29/measuring-success-and-failure/
shmeargle
Smash Apprentice
Well one thing I think that might be good is writing down things in a notebook to write your thoughts and reflect on your game. Idk how far people would go to improve seriously in this game, but I believe it has it's benefits.
1) you are able to monitor your progress and feelings while you play the game.
2) you can set goals to reach out to.
3) writing things down things makes your ideas concrete in order to address some problems that you have and force you to realize that you have to do something about it.
4) you can revisit certain thoughts that you had a bout a particular subject and compare it with how you deal with things now to see what works and doesnt work.
Being an athlete i feel that doing this could apply to this game too.
1) you are able to monitor your progress and feelings while you play the game.
2) you can set goals to reach out to.
3) writing things down things makes your ideas concrete in order to address some problems that you have and force you to realize that you have to do something about it.
4) you can revisit certain thoughts that you had a bout a particular subject and compare it with how you deal with things now to see what works and doesnt work.
Being an athlete i feel that doing this could apply to this game too.
Scar that is a pretty awesome blog. Taking a measurable approach to improvement instead of doing it haphazardly seems great.
On thinking/not-thinking during matches -
I feel like Conscious Thinking is slow. Apply it when you have the time but otherwise just play.
On thinking/not-thinking during matches -
I feel like Conscious Thinking is slow. Apply it when you have the time but otherwise just play.
Scar
#HarveyDent
I'm not really getting a lot of questions - would love more about your personal situation! I should be updating tonight, and possibly streaming tonight/tomorrow. Help me understand what you need help with so we can work together to address it and further develop Lean Gaming.
Bing
Smash Master
Do you have any tips on controller anger or nervousness? I can play fairly solid and technical but as soon as I lose a set, or make a mistake. Its game over. <-- This is becoming an issue of mine, and generally im not an angry person
Zone
Smash Champion
My biggest problem i can only play my best with fox for a short time.
Like I need a 1 hour warm up. Then I play real well for like 2-3 hours. Then after that my tech skill goes to ****.
The last tourney I was at I was doing everything perfectly. Went to buy a water came back and it was like I was just learning how to l-cancel.
My fox at his best is my best character but I'm afraid to use him alot because at random moments it's like I have to relearn all the techs.
Like I need a 1 hour warm up. Then I play real well for like 2-3 hours. Then after that my tech skill goes to ****.
The last tourney I was at I was doing everything perfectly. Went to buy a water came back and it was like I was just learning how to l-cancel.
My fox at his best is my best character but I'm afraid to use him alot because at random moments it's like I have to relearn all the techs.
Vionce
Smash Journeyman
What do you recommend for fixing rolling or ground dodging habits? Against marth I tend to spot dodge when I think i'm at a frame disadvantage, but some people pick up on it, and wait for it and punish.
If there are going to many many posts, then I think the home page should not contain the entire post. Just have a preview of the first 1 or 2 paragraphs, or maybe put some kind of index of all/many posts and just use a preview.
If there are going to many many posts, then I think the home page should not contain the entire post. Just have a preview of the first 1 or 2 paragraphs, or maybe put some kind of index of all/many posts and just use a preview.
Bill_the_Duck
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2011
- Messages
- 48
I need some tips on how to improve in a smash environment that might not be the best for becoming better... to begin with, we usually have 6+ people switching out on one TV. Our group is quite large, but there are... well probably 6-8 of us out of 20 that really care about legitimate playing, and we all have a huge skill gap over the lower players, as well as between each other. There are a lot of problems arising from this, but I'll just point out the ones I find most important (I main Peach if that matters, although I think my Falco and Ganon are close enough to where I could switch mains fairly easily).
Limited playtime- we get together 2-3 times a week to play. Maybe one or two will be only among the serious players, the rest will be with a bunch of people who, frankly, suck, although they are good friends and fun to be around. However, we only have one T.V, so that limits play even more and leads to the next problem.
4P matches- with so many non-serious players, as well as limited playtime on one T.V, we try to get in a bunch of people as quick as possible, leading to 4 person matches. There are occassional 1v1s, but they are between players who just want to see whos better, or we all do a few 1v1s for a little while, but not often.
"Joke" play- its unfortunate, but the less skilled players tend to get frustrated and stop trying when they begin losing to the serious players. For an hour or two they try and sometimes do surprisingly well, but then they start playing stupid characters like Roy, Ness or Pichu after they get Falco D-Air spiked one too many times.
Uneven skill level- even among the serious players, we have vastly differing levels. At the top, a Fox/C. Falc player who dominates everyone except another C. Falc player, who also dominates everyone else. Then a 3-6 block with me, a Luigi, a Shiek and a Samus. Really these 3 are the only players I can get any useful experience out of, but they don't show up as often as others and I feel I'm unable to learn matches against Fast Fallers because of their characters. Finally there is an IC at 7, and two Marth's bringing up 8-9. I beat them all quite easily, although I'm not sure if the IC player is maybe better than I think and just losing so bad because of the horrible Peach-IC matchup.
So... yeah, not a great situation but I'd like to try to make the best of it. Me and the Fox/C. Falc player try to get together more often because we are the two who are free the most and live very close to each other for ease of access, but I don't feel like a get a huge amount of that since he beats me probably about 80% of the time quite easily. Any suggestions? :/
Limited playtime- we get together 2-3 times a week to play. Maybe one or two will be only among the serious players, the rest will be with a bunch of people who, frankly, suck, although they are good friends and fun to be around. However, we only have one T.V, so that limits play even more and leads to the next problem.
4P matches- with so many non-serious players, as well as limited playtime on one T.V, we try to get in a bunch of people as quick as possible, leading to 4 person matches. There are occassional 1v1s, but they are between players who just want to see whos better, or we all do a few 1v1s for a little while, but not often.
"Joke" play- its unfortunate, but the less skilled players tend to get frustrated and stop trying when they begin losing to the serious players. For an hour or two they try and sometimes do surprisingly well, but then they start playing stupid characters like Roy, Ness or Pichu after they get Falco D-Air spiked one too many times.
Uneven skill level- even among the serious players, we have vastly differing levels. At the top, a Fox/C. Falc player who dominates everyone except another C. Falc player, who also dominates everyone else. Then a 3-6 block with me, a Luigi, a Shiek and a Samus. Really these 3 are the only players I can get any useful experience out of, but they don't show up as often as others and I feel I'm unable to learn matches against Fast Fallers because of their characters. Finally there is an IC at 7, and two Marth's bringing up 8-9. I beat them all quite easily, although I'm not sure if the IC player is maybe better than I think and just losing so bad because of the horrible Peach-IC matchup.
So... yeah, not a great situation but I'd like to try to make the best of it. Me and the Fox/C. Falc player try to get together more often because we are the two who are free the most and live very close to each other for ease of access, but I don't feel like a get a huge amount of that since he beats me probably about 80% of the time quite easily. Any suggestions? :/
Scar
#HarveyDent
It seems like mindset is the biggest issue, possibly for more/less everyone. I really want to post tonight, it's been a long time, probably including some resources and how to use lean to improve mindset.
Violence
Smash Lord
Bobby, one of the pillars of Lean Melee is to be able to assess your own problems and areas that need improvement accurately.
I've noticed that a lot of times many players will either not notice their biggest mistakes, or misdiagnose the reason for those mistakes. Do you have any advice on how to better find your own problems?
I've noticed that a lot of times many players will either not notice their biggest mistakes, or misdiagnose the reason for those mistakes. Do you have any advice on how to better find your own problems?