Le Lazy Lurking Link's Listen/Laugh Lounge ♪~ (^ 。^=)

[Anonano]

It is if your name is Tesh.

Also, more good ol' Z'z posting things he thinks he saw but doesn't understand.

Come on, people.

 

[Tesh]

I think Link does okay vs Snake and Olimar. He has a few redeeming traits, but none of them help much against ICs. He IS really bad especially in ways ICs can abuse.

You guys are the ones unreasonably assuming its winnable when none of you have ever won it.

 

[Rizen]

I think Link does okay vs Snake and Olimar. He has a few redeeming traits, but none of them help much against ICs. He IS really bad especially in ways ICs can abuse.

You guys are the ones unreasonably assuming its winnable when none of you have ever won it.

Have you ever played it?

I have won it several times.

 

[Tesh]

against whom?

I was more reasonable than and of you were. You guys basically come down to "i can explode so -2 at worst". I value results, so I'd love to see any of you fight Vinnie or ESAM and make it look winnable.

 

[Rizen]

against whom?

I was more reasonable than and of you were. You guys basically come down to "i can explode so -2 at worst". I value results, so I'd love to see any of you fight Vinnie or ESAM and make it look winnable.

You have offered no results or evidence whatsoever. Do you have anything?

 

[Tesh]

How about the best Links never beating notable ICs or even taking a game from what I've seen?

Look at any other -2 matchup and show me a 99% rate of failure.

 

[Rizen]

How about the best Links never beating notable ICs or even taking a game from what I've seen?

Look at any other -2 matchup and show me a 99% rate of failure.

So you have nothing. You're simply assuming the MU is worse than 5 people, include an ICs player who have played it, say. Recently played it, I'll add.


Awex, Swans, Blast, Darkflame, 420, Detta, DMS, I've taken games or sets off. That I can remember atm. X took a game off Ice Arrow. Huggles a Georgia player, even Vinne acknowledges wins:

Although I haven't really done the MU much with him, I could say that Link is ****ing *** and every time I've seen him win, he outplayed the **** out of them.

You can't use numbers like 99% when you just make them up.

You have to base MUs on when it's played not when it isn't played or it's theory crafting. There's plenty of results you don't see only because you don't want to. The MU is officially stated as -2 for Link. I'm done with this; if you can't see it then you probably never will.

 

[Anonano]

How about notable ICs and notable Links never having played, both being rarities? Vinne himself has just admitted to not having any experience playing notable Links. We've had discussion about how X hasn't played any notable ICs. I mean, come on, how stupid can you be.

Personally, I feel you've already devalued your opinion enough here by heaping insults at us without prior evidence for us to reasonably question your opinion. We've been giving our opinions on the matchup, from our personal experiences, before we've given any sort of overall evaluation of the matchup. This is literally the first time you've attempted to back up your position at all (with "Well, I haven't seen any matches so obviously my opinion is the right one." Quite embarrassing--for you)

What's wrong here is your attitude in approaching a discussion. I'm completely open to accepting another viewpoint here. Z'z had me questioning whether ICs could force drop bombs, effectively taking away Link's counter to ICs best advantage--until Rizen pointed out that you have to manually drop them yourself via the Z button. But you've approached this discussion from the perspective that the battle is already won and the opposition has to be disillusioned. Change your attitude even more, start posting evidence for your opinions before posting them AND YOUR INSULTS TO THE OTHER SIDE. We'll take you seriously then, Tesh.

Seriously. Just start talking sense first and I won't hold it against you. I'll even apologize for flaming you, too.

 

[Tesh]

Hey, I asked if you guys were gonna play it out. Doesn't the best Link leave in Vinnie's region. You guys don't EVEN have theorycraft, one of you even thinks sopo is worse than Link.

As Vinnie stated, the character is far more complex than dash grabbing like the lesser ICs. I haven't a doubt that a top level ICs will show you how little your bombs can protect you. Thats really all I'm asking for. Top level Link vs top level ICs. Then you won't base the matchup on top level link vs unknown ICs.

 

[Z'zgashi]

No they can't. Anytime a character holding an item is hit there is a very small chance they will drop that item.

Theres a pretty big chance, and you can also do this: http://smashboards.com/threads/how-to-cg-people-item-holding-explosives.320446/

btw I dont know anything about this MU, I just noticed people were saying a lot about how holding a bomb stops them from being CG'd when Ive seen ICs consistently get around it. I will say theory crafting though, ICs v Link sounds REALLY bad and Sopo v Link still seems slightly in Popo's favor.

 

[Anonano]

Hey, I asked if you guys were gonna play it out. Doesn't the best Link leave in Vinnie's region.

Why, no. Why haven't they played it out? Not your problem or perrogative to ask, nor is it mine. If Vinnie is gonna "walk the talk" then it's been up to him in years past and it is up to him in the months to come to choose to face Kirin on his own.

Best Link? Dunno. Haven't seen any gameplay at all from him recently. Scizor I know is really good, X is pretty good, but from my personal matches with him over WiFi I'd give best Link to Scizor. But your whining won't make the difference in the MU discussion. So stop whining and get to theorycrafting.

You guys don't EVEN have theorycraft, one of you even thinks sopo is worse than Link.

I probably should read the rest of your post and respond to it, but I stopped reading here to respond. See all of our posts to see our theorycrafting (from our personal playing experience, btw, which is the best kind of theorycrafting). Your theorycrafting?

In general and in the matchup Sopo has a better recovery. He is floaty, so assuming good DI he won't wind up below the ledge. Link however can get sent more up than out and still wind up having to go for the ledge because he fall so fast.

Sopo is actually stronger than Link and stuff like Bair, nair and dtilt can send you out too far to make it back. Aside from link's dair, he isn't very powerful to begin with. You are also going to get chaingrabbed to the ledge when sopo gets a grab.

Toon link does well vs ICs because he can harass them without getting grabbed because he is always in the air, much like Peach, ROB or MK. Link is always on the ground so being wrong is a whole lot riskier than being wrong in the air.

I'd love to see evidence backing your claims though. Fits my pro-ban agenda perfectly if ICs is working hard against low tiers.

So I was incorrect--you did bring a little discussion to the table. Which we summarily debunked.

Need it again?

Otherwise, your theorycrafting has been "SoPo is better than Link" and "We need to see this matchup." First is opinion, not theorycrafting, and the second is something you can't control anyways. So, it is YOU who has no theorycrafting left to support your side, while we've got some good points hanging in the air undebunked.

tl;dr I just wish you'd stop making calls for things you can't have (Vids of the MU between top players) and interjections of your own opinion which has already firmly been disproved. It's insulting.

No, I can guarantee you that ICs can force you to drop it. Ill try and figure out why that is exactly (I remembered hearing about it when it was discovered, but dont remember what it is now) and link you to it. Might take a bit cuz I literally have no idea where to start looking (obviously in the ICs forums, but where in the ICs forums Im not sure) but Ill look. I could also maybe name drop DeLux, ESAM, or GIMR to see if they find this post and do the work for me xD

Theres a pretty big chance, and you can also do this:http://smashboards.com/threads/how-to-cg-people-item-holding-explosives.320446/

btw I dont know anything about this MU, I just noticed people were saying a lot about how holding a bomb stops them from being CG'd when Ive seen ICs consistently get around it.

So, no, you were wrong, they have to do use some obscure timing gimmick to make the bomb explode while neither of the ICs will be affected. "Potentially MU changing?" Yeah. Potentially. Like bombsliding could have potentially made the difference for Link's mobility issue. But it sounds like a fortuitous timing gimmick to me. ICs just have to hope and pray they'll time their force get-up animation right for the bomb to explode during inv. frames. This is a different point than the one you were trying to make before, Z'z. And "consistently"? I very strongly doubt it.

 

[Rizen]

Theres a pretty big chance, and you can also do this: http://smashboards.com/threads/how-to-cg-people-item-holding-explosives.320446/

btw I dont know anything about this MU, I just noticed people were saying a lot about how holding a bomb stops them from being CG'd when Ive seen ICs consistently get around it. I will say theory crafting though, ICs v Link sounds REALLY bad and Sopo v Link still seems slightly in Popo's favor.

What Ano said and

If Link's holding a bomb and gets grabbed he's not being smart with the bomb.

Having bombs doesn't mean Link runs into grabs, it's stupid. Bombs exploding in Link's hand are a last ditch but it means Link didn't use the bomb to escape when he should have. Boomerang can mess up CG spacing too.
Link's bombs have big explosions. CGers don't have to only not let Link be launched they have to not be hit themselves (both ICs in their case) and return to continue the CG in time.

If you think it's really bad then consider this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEwO_WOCchg if Link's platform camping how will ICs land a grab unless Link messes up? How can ICs damage Link without almost equal risk themselves? Keep in mind we're arguing for -2 and ICs do have the advantage. Timeouts are a bigger threat than being CGed from mistakes.

______________________


If anyone ever wonders why I get ticked off about theory crafting this is a good example. When we've played a character for 5 years we know them. Someone who uses a character who can win comes in and acts like they know better than the mains because they have placed with few disadvantage MU. If you don't have experience with a character then you don't have experience with a character.

 

[DeLux]

I think the last time this MU was played at a high level was last summer at Revelations. Scizor went Link one game and I 2 stocked him mid%. Then he went MK. All this while I had a 104 degree fever and felt like keeling over and dying the whole set. I think I dropped one or two grabs, but my memory is pretty hazy from that day for obvious reason. I seem to recall him actually getting a slight lead pretty early but then I just grinded it out and got the win, but we played like 2 hours of friendlies the day before and sick johns so I might be confusing that game with another one.

I don't think Sopo is better than Link, although he does have a powerful gimmick of Dthrow CG > Dtilt or Air Dodge late hit nair gimps. Realistically (although I tend to be pessimistic), it seems pretty even to slight Link's favor with Sopo, just because after the Dthrow gimmicks it just becomes a grind it out fest and contrary to what people seem to think, Sopo is not the next coming of King DDD lol

To my knowledge there isn't any way to make people force drop a bomb (or item) if they are holding it. It seems to be random factor, although I suspect that faster rates of damage per second will increase the chances an item is randomly dropped when hit. Off the top of my head though, when I do get the grab on Link if he happens to be holding the bomb, I know of three different gimmicks (and a fourth that is port priority dependent) that can lead to CGing through the bomb exploding off, all with various timings to augment chances for success to near inescapable as far as I can tell. In actuality, the most likely scenario I get of dropping a CG when a character is holding an explosive is that they drop the item and I don't hear it randomly drop, and I accidentally hit it with an fthrow hitbox or something along those lines. I don't think any of the other ICs know all of these gimmicks like I do though lol

In reading this thread I'm seeing posts that feature wifi play from ICs. ICs are unviable on wifi. I regularly money in tournaments, but will commonly go like 0-10 in ladder using my various AIB accounts. Using wifi as a means of showing the ICvs.anyone matchup is laughable.

TLDR: If Vinnie thinks it's +4 ICs and I think it's +2 ICs, it must be +3 ICs based on the Vinnie-DeLux Mean Rule for ICs MU.

 

[Rizen]

Online sucks for Link bad but the visual aid's nice. People have trouble picturing how Link avoids CGs. ^What's weird is we generally agree on most MUs I've seen opinions on. ZSS was a borderline, not as bad as many -2s, MU and I had no strong objection. I just hate when people say it's -4 (or -3 in ZSS case) because Link's bad with no other reasoning.

 

[DeLux]

lol shouldn't be hard to imagine

You drop a bomb or throw a bomb down and land on the other side of the bomb compared to your opponent. Then you jump away

GG on how to avoid grabs

 

[Anonano]

DeLux, why are you amazing.

Also, this DeLux-Vinnie Mean rule: It will forever be in effect in my heart. If the two of you ever speakest a thing, the mean shall be my law.

 

[Huggles828]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZRij0V6J-I

Here ya go guys! A video of me and my brother playing after a night of alcohol. It's a little tough to see because it's FD, but honestly I think the best part is my brother's ridiculous comments

Recipe for a fun drinking game:
1. Get 3 players. Everyone be on the same team at 300% handicap and play as Ganondorf.
2. Set computer to lv 9 Metaknight.
3. First person to lose all lives takes a shot. If MK wins, everyone takes a shot as well.
4. ???
5. PROFIT!

 

[DeLux]

DeLux, why are you amazing.

Also, this DeLux-Vinnie Mean rule: It will forever be in effect in my heart. If the two of you ever speakest a thing, the mean shall be my law.

I'm actually pretty bad. It's probably part of why I think ICs are so bad.
I suspect Vinnie being really good makes him think ICs are also really good.

 

[Anonano]

Dat humor of yours, I'm its apprentice now though

EDIT: HuggleZ is bringing back beer cancelling. <3 Shintwist_Screampaste and Afro, wonder what happened to them D:

You played pretty decent for being stoned. <3 Hugglez, you need to be around more

 

[LordXav1er]

Sorry been bit busy fun reading tho. But for the most part I can only say that a top Link has not played a top IC really. When this does happen you guys will easily see Sopo is one of Links easiest MUs and the MU is no worse then -2.

I have played a handful of ICs. Prawn, SilverAlloy, Cygnet, IceArrow, Swordgard, Darkflame, Blacktwins, elev, etc to name a few beat all but Silver but it's all my fault for being overly agressive that day in general. When Link is very aggressive he will lose pretty bad to an IC. Sopo no.

ICs was the first notable win I ever had when I was much worse than I am now. While many others in my region were losing to them at time. Got a Dazwa hug that day.

 

[DeLux]

Sorry been bit busy fun reading tho. But for the most part I can only say that a top Link has not played a top IC really.

Did you not read where I said I played Scizor >_>

 

[LordXav1er]

Sorry DeLux I just read it now x_x

My statement was true either way because you believe it's -2 woot. Anyway it is a bit annoying when Links are seen to be -4/-3/-2/ from assumptions. Rather then people actually playing the MUs to provide evidence.

 

[Rizen]

I've played a lot more ICs than listed but didn't beat them.

Anyway it is a bit annoying when Links are seen to be -4/-3/-2/ from assumptions. Rather then people actually playing the MUs to provide evidence.

It's sad how often this happens. More so when Brawl was alive of course. People would post troll threads just saying Link sucks. 'Link's bad so throw him offstage and it's a free gimp. -4 MU'

 

[wWw Dazwa]

ICs was the first notable win I ever had when I was much worse than I am now. While many others in my region were losing to them at time. Got a Dazwa hug that day.

I hugged you because you won a -4 matchup, jus sayin

 

[Anonano]

HERE WE EFFING GO AGAIN

CAN WE PLEASE STOP WITH ALL THE SERIOUS MU TALK

ITS MAKING ME FEEL LIKE I'M IN AN IMPORTANT DEBATE OR SOMETHING

 

[Huggles828]

NO. fun is expressly forbidden in the Link social thread. Only serious business is allowed here, just like the internets intended.

 

[Rizen]

I need more Pit experience. He's one of the characters I almost never play and I realized I don't know the MU very well after playing the admiral.

Whatever happened to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_fyOkrteqM ?
Is the only new Zelda the 3DS one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAluniNRibs and they have no Wii U other than the WW remake?

 

[Bomber7]

NO. fun is expressly forbidden in the Link social thread. Only serious business is allowed here, just like the internets intended.

Because Link players are the most serious about their character. Even more serious than Metaknight players.

 

[Anonano]

Just learned tonight that Link's bombs blow up and continue through Toon Link's bombs.

Learned some tips from KotierWolf and started focusing on punishing TL's landings after bombpulls, boomerang throws and arrows. Link's bomb goes through all of them and hits TL, so that should force a mixup from TL players as any lag after their moves/any projectile they use while landing is punishable by bomb.

Shoutouts to KotierWolf, he has the best spam game of all the Links I've ever played.

 

[Rizen]

Just learned tonight that Link's bombs blow up and continue through Toon Link's bombs.

Learned some tips from KotierWolf and started focusing on punishing TL's landings after bombpulls, boomerang throws and arrows. Link's bomb goes through all of them and hits TL, so that should force a mixup from TL players as any lag after their moves/any projectile they use while landing is punishable by bomb.

Shoutouts to KotierWolf, he has the best spam game of all the Links I've ever played.

^

Link can also safely Zair through all TL's projectiles, including bombs but no Zair stops Link's bombs The problem vs TL is his jumps, floatyness, size and mobility give him the edge in camping. He can move out of the way of Link's spam .

Edit:
The Wolf social has the most adorable pictures people post of wolves:

We should include more Link and LoZ pics

Maybe we can get this thread going again:
http://smashboards.com/threads/hylian-design-links-multimedia-art-thread.326707/

 

[Anonano]

I need frame info on Link's dair when it clashes with an item (like ZSS' armor parts), e.g. how long the stun animation is before he bounces off the part and what frame the hitbox reactivates. Can someone get that? My Wii doesn't work with most hacks, so I can't test this myself.

And while I'm worrying about the stun when dair clashes with stuff, I'd also love it if someone could get frame data on Link's stun after a projectile hits his shield as well.

 

[Bomber7]

that should force a mixup from TL players as any lag after their moves/any projectile they use while landing is punishable by bomb.

Bomb pull -> quickdraw. Zair = lagless landing. Also forcing any Link-based character to mix things up isn't necessarily a good thing (for you), unless it just so happens that Link player is inflexible and otherwise incapable to adapting.

just my 2 cents.

 

[Anonano]

That's the point Bomber, bombs go through the quickdraw and blow TL up. It also goes through TL's own bombs or boomerang if he tries to throw them from the ground/on landing. And if he zairs he'll have to shield, dodge or catch the bombs. :/


Here, maybe I should say it this way for you Bomber: Don't interpret this as an all-catch. Honestly, I think that you're being silly by assuming that I'm using this as an all-catch strategy versus Toon Link. The only time it works is when TL is landing from a boomerang throw/bombpull/arrow shot, and only then if you time throwing the bomb well enough that it will hit TL within a few frames of landing. If TL isn't in a spam animation and is descending nonchalant, it won't hit. Because honestly what TL is going to descend and zair that bomb when he can just catch it or completely move away from it instead? Hopefully you get what I'm talking about now. It only works when TL is already trapped in an animation.

It is a specific strategy for a specific timing.

 

[Bomber7]

I understand now. Though do you know what do after TL is hit with said bomb? Counters aren't really useful unless you can follow through.

 

[Anonano]

I understand now. Though do you know what do after TL is hit with said bomb? Counters aren't really useful unless you can follow through.

I'm not really sure what you're asking. Brawl doesn't have any real follow ups.


At reasonably low percents and mid-range boomerang can combo out of the hitstun of the bomb, or at closerange dash attack can hit as well. I guess theoretically now that I'm thinking about it DACUS could also work but you'd need to have good timing and DACUS distance/slide control for it to work. That's guesswork though as I've never tried to DACUS (as imo it's one of the most overrated moves in the game; only Snake can use it to great effect and for every other character it's just another gimmick).

With the dash attack thing, its back to the usual Brawl grind of reading the opponent to see if they'll airdodge or not, as Link could punish a double jump or fall with an utilt, airdodge is punishable by most ground moves, but again it's just getting the read there.
Most Link mains have the playstyle of going straight back to a neutral position rather than attempting a risky followup, so they'd likely try to jump back and zair after the dash attack, which could catch either the airdodge or the landing depending on the timing of the zair, but would miss the double jump.

As it stands catching TL falling is a simple read-and-punish, so all it is is resetting the spamming game and just another tool Link can use in the MU. It's not anything fabulous. It's like, how is TL going to punish Link if he catches him with an arrow from across the stage? Well, I guess he can shoot another arrow! It just resets the spam game and provides another chance for Link to put the pressure on the TL main rather than vise-versa.

Don't read too much into it, lol.

 

[Bomber7]

How can I read too much into it, everything I see is in red. @__________@

 

[Anonano]

Lol, thanks for the humor. Sorry I've been hard on you.

 

[Bomber7]

It's ok. I'm used to it. I honestly don't think you can be nearly as hard on me as some of the guys I've butt heads with on the PT boards. Some of the guys who are considered active and the best are such data crunchers. I've been knocked around a bit because I'll say something that is simple/logical (at least to me), but it doesn't agree with the data compiled by them. I just tend to brush those kinds of confrontations off because I'm not about to pull out the super microscope and out data crunch them for the sake of winning an argument over what a character can do or not. Which is why I avid any MU or technical data discussion because I'm not looking to get into my character THAT in depth. I like keeping things simple and general, for the most part, or at least when it comes to playing my character. I only say that because I feel like the super data crunchers use that data to basically try to dictate how you should play your character. I disagree with that entirely, so I just walk away silently. The only consequence is that I'm not the best like them, but at least I feel like I can keep my sense of pride that I play my character the way I want, enjoy doing it, and strive to improve upon it. And I probably got way too into that reply. lol.

TL;DR: It's all good bro.

 

[Rizen]

Sorry to get all technical but...

Link has guaranteed followups (when spaced right):
Fsmash 1>Fsmash 2 at low %s
Throw bomb down>(air) Footstool, Nair or Dair works at most %s if spaced right.
Footstool>throw bomb down> combo mentioned above.
Air footstool>FF Nair/Dair
Locks like boomerang>(assuming they don't tech) arrow or jab...>finisher. And other setups.
Well spaced projectiles will combo into each other
Grab release>Dsmash/jab/Dash attack vs Ness and Lucas (provided they don't break out mashing jump during a pummel)
1st hit of Fsmash/Dsmash/Fair>returning wind pull>2nd hit.

Several things aren't guaranteed but are easy to chain if spaced right:
FF Bair/Nair>Utilt/jab etc at low-med%s
Zair>Jab/Dsmash etc
Jab cancels
Utilt>Utilt/Usmash at low %s

I don't think Dair has any stun when it bounces but it might depend on what it hit. I'm not sure.

Link doesn't have combos when punishing landings with bombs (thrown forward) but he gets a great position advantage because bombs always launch up. You can hit with a bomb before they actually land and the opponent won't have jumps restored. Then you can go for juggles with more bombs and (listed from farthest up to close spacing) Uair, Fair/Bair, Utilt/Usmash. Repeat until they return down to the stages.

 

[Anonano]

I think I'm with you on this one, Bomber. All this technical jargon