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LordXav1er

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LordXav1er wrote at 11:33 PM on Jul 9, 2013 :
But on a more serious note I wish I had played you Vinnie at XSmash there is no way in hell Link is -4 vs IC sorry Falco MK and D3 are much better vs Link and am not afraid to prove it.

IC vs Link at worst is -2
 

Tesh

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im curious as to why you think that. I dont wanna talk down about link for being a terrible character, but all he has in this matchup is bombs. He probably loses to sopo (sopo is stronger, has a better recovery, safer close range game).

ICs are not a character you can afford to be slow against, -4 might be a bit harsh, but i couldnt see ICs beating link only as bad as sonic does
 

LordXav1er

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Link never really has to ever approach unlike Sonic. Sonic has a better time running away once he gets enough for a percentage lead. But Link has a really strong time zoning IC's out (the bigger stage/more the platforms) FD the MU could be -3 but besides that its not that troublesome to annoy the crap out of them. I actually think we do so better then TL projectile/spacing wise.

Link is also pretty amazing at separating them compared to most of the cast.

As for your assumption about sopo, no. Better recovery??? Unless you mean horizontally and very high then maybe but otherwise the recovery is much worse then Links. Even then we have tools to hinder that recovery super well such as boomerang, nair, fair, etc... Stronger? Not at all. Safer? Not sure what makes you say that, Sopo drops the MU a lot more so in Links favor.
 

Rizen

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Link vs ICs:
Link can actually land without getting grabbed. There's is almost no time in a game, when played right, that ICs can carry out a CG without being bombed. ICs can deal a lot of damage to Link but he can take a lot. If ICs want to damage Link they'll have to chase him and they take a lot of damage in the process and risk separations too. Bombs and boomerang are great at separating ICs. Link has better reach and can KO relatively early. The big disadvantage Link has is taking tons of damage to avoid CGs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEwO_WOCchg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t0Co9ZXGEI

Like X said, -2.
 

Anonano

is the mano, ya know?
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I've played a pretty good ICs here in Utah. He didn't have the chaingrabs down for Link yet but he's beaten top players in the state (who use more expectable characters rofl), so I feel I've got a pretty good rep here. I tried playing him on FD and I'd say it's a -3. Link really has no options but to camp the edge or try to bait ICs into projectiles. When I would make it back onto the stage, I had a hard time trying to outplay him at all.
That said, even on FD sopo is probably the easiest character to beat I've ever played. Sopo doesn't have good approach options or good counter-spam options. Also, easy and kinda fun to edgeguard against. Whenever Link can get the ICs out of sync, away from each other, or sopo, the MU is probably +2 or 3 in Link's favor. His only real option when alone is to try and chaingrab>fsmash and quite frankly Link laughs at that. It's the perfect angle for DI and Popo can't edgeguard Link effectively. Nair or Uair can KO Link at high percents, but a Sopo who has Link at high percents is a sopo who's been doing his CGs wrong.

On regular stages (since any decent person would ban FD) I'd say it hovers somewhere between -2 and -3. ICs' regular spam game loses to Link at medium or long distances, and it messes with their synchronization, usually knocking Nana away and ruining the camp setup. This is a MU where Link comfortably outcamps, period. However ICs can counter Link's spam game through platforms with nairs/uairs and eventually force some sort of other option out of Link, even on BF. Even fancy or clever mindgames can only do so much before a patient IC player can grab out of it, and even when Link knocks Nana away it is usually close enough that Popo can wait for her to get back, even with button mashing. Essentailly, once they get in close, they win, and that is where Link's main flaw comes in--he can't zone them well enough to keep them away.
 

Tesh

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In general and in the matchup Sopo has a better recovery. He is floaty, so assuming good DI he won't wind up below the ledge. Link however can get sent more up than out and still wind up having to go for the ledge because he fall so fast.

Sopo is actually stronger than Link and stuff like Bair, nair and dtilt can send you out too far to make it back. Aside from link's dair, he isn't very powerful to begin with. You are also going to get chaingrabbed to the ledge when sopo gets a grab.

Toon link does well vs ICs because he can harass them without getting grabbed because he is always in the air, much like Peach, ROB or MK. Link is always on the ground so being wrong is a whole lot riskier than being wrong in the air.

I'd love to see evidence backing your claims though. Fits my pro-ban agenda perfectly if ICs is working hard against low tiers.
 

LordXav1er

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I am actually being fairly generous saying its -2. Considering I have yet to play a TOP IC like Vinnie etc... I honestly think its possibly even or -1 but can't say so until I see high level Link vs IC gameplay. There is only one stage ICs really can play better against a Link which is FD and even then its not super bad its just a little easier for them to catch us with a CG. Tho I believe ICs share this with just about everyone on that stage.

If we really wanna discuss Sopo I would say that's like +2 or +3 Link favor. The MU is drastically easier its like a sign of relief once Nana is dead to be honest. Especially if you continue playing the same way you been playing when they were together. Now if Link decides to play less safe sure he won't get punished as hard but would deserve the death.... I really didn't think I would ever have to discuss Sopo vs Link lol It is like the easiest MU in the world for Link. Unless you wanna count Solimar or Ivysaur only. We can debate this here and now to get them out the way.
 

Tesh

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I think you are looking at how you can avoid the grab without considering that Sopo outclasses link and there are 2 of him. He doesn't even need to chaingrab you. He/they do a buttload of damage, can gimp you and avoid your kill moves....still chaingrabs you to like 100 after you kill nana. Hell its like a mini DDD.

Don't be silly, solimar has like 5 moves and literally cant kill and sopo is actually a functional character that would at least be top of low tier by himself.

But once again, I think we need to see it. I hear you are the one of the best links left so hopefully in the coming months i'll get to see you fight ESAM, Vinnie, Nakat or someone and we can see it in action.
 

LordXav1er

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In general and in the matchup Sopo has a better recovery. He is floaty, so assuming good DI he won't wind up below the ledge. Link however can get sent more up than out and still wind up having to go for the ledge because he fall so fast.

Sopo is actually stronger than Link and stuff like Bair, nair and dtilt can send you out too far to make it back. Aside from link's dair, he isn't very powerful to begin with. You are also going to get chaingrabbed to the ledge when sopo gets a grab.

Toon link does well vs ICs because he can harass them without getting grabbed because he is always in the air, much like Peach, ROB or MK. Link is always on the ground so being wrong is a whole lot riskier than being wrong in the air.

I'd love to see evidence backing your claims though. Fits my pro-ban agenda perfectly if ICs is working hard against low tiers.
And here it goes... never in a million years did I expect this... Ok for Sopo.

Yes he is floatier he recovers a bit better I guess horizontally from above that is fine and all but Link can easily bait the side bs and put ICs in even worse situations till he can't recover or get the kill. Nairs, Fairs, Bombs, BOOMERANG, Bairs and Zairs. I believe even simple arrows will mess it up. Now baiting it for a good dair, fsmash or dsmash can also work wonders depending Sopo percents for if he dies.

Sopo actually stronger then Link? that is surprising if this is actually true... but then again I guess I never allowed Sopos to get near me enough to really see this as they shouldn't get close to Link at all unpunished. CG works similar to Falcos only low percents man after that Sopo isn't getting any and will struggle to kill a Link more then any other character I can name. The dtilt or fsmash finishes can be easily DI'd to the point where Link will recover and Sopo can't really keep Link from recovering. Without at least risking his own life. He must be up a stock or something if he does this,

Link has a very solid ground game he can harass harder then TLs can as unlike TL he has the range and seperates ICs a lot easier, He also has the strength. He may not have the speed but for this particular MU speed isn't that detrimental its moreso being weary of not getting cornered or predictably rolling/something equally silly into a ICs. They can corner Link BEST on FD. Rest of the stages Link can continue to keep away and bombs help so much in the MU. Link has better bombs then TL for this MU.


Eh fine Solimar is easiet character in game. lol there is still Ivy or Sopo for second at least.
 

LordXav1er

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Sopo outclasses Link??? What is this world coming to? Where do you keep hearing these fairy tales? I am seriously too tired to argue a silly statement like this. Link may be a pretty bad character but that statement is perhaps the worst I got in awhile. Sounds more like you want Sopo to beat Link or something. Like wanting Naruto to beat DBZ (I argue with friends all the time about)

Yes I much rather see this play out then talk or debate as I am more a man of action then words. Hence I never really talk about MUs much ever (can ask around or see I don't post much in such threads) but I decided to tonight since it got to me that Vinnie seriously thinks its -4 in ICs favor.

This is worse then when me and Rizen were trying to reason with Samus and ZSS MUs. People aren't giving enough credit to Links these days it is kinda sad.
 

Rizen

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In general and in the matchup Sopo has a better recovery. He is floaty, so assuming good DI he won't wind up below the ledge. Link however can get sent more up than out and still wind up having to go for the ledge because he fall so fast.
In distance yes but only if Link isn't holding a bomb. Link has many more options to defend himself, a longer reach and 2 recoveries (upB and a tether).
Sopo is actually stronger than Link and stuff like Bair, nair and dtilt can send you out too far to make it back. Aside from link's dair, he isn't very powerful to begin with.
Link's stronger.
Link's Dsmash (frame 6) is almost as strong a Oli's purple Dsmash. http://www.ssbwiki.com/Down_smash_chart , Utilt KOs at 140-180%+ assuming good DI, Fsmash 2nd hit is stronger than Ness' Fsmash, Ftilt and Fair 2nd KO around 150%, Uthrow 170-180% and any time Link footstools while holding a bomb/arrow locks/jab locks he gets a Dair. Frame 1 Dair is like Fox's Usmash.
I think you are looking at how you can avoid the grab without considering that Sopo outclasses link and there are 2 of him. He doesn't even need to chaingrab you. He/they do a buttload of damage, can gimp you and avoid your kill moves....still chaingrabs you to like 100 after you kill nana. Hell its like a mini DDD.

Don't be silly, solimar has like 5 moves and literally cant kill and sopo is actually a functional character that would at least be top of low tier by himself.

But once again, I think we need to see it. I hear you are the one of the best links left so hopefully in the coming months i'll get to see you fight ESAM, Vinnie, Nakat or someone and we can see it in action.
SoPo does not outclass Link. Link's stronger, better reach, and out-camps. He's like a mini DDD if DDD had the worst grab reach in the cast. Many characters can CG Link like that including Yoshi, Pika and others and they have better grabs and options.

Sopo is not better than low tiers.

Does this look like a -4 MU to you?
even a year ago http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dxCq8RccGUnot

It's -2, no worse.
 

LordXav1er

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I am pretty positive Sopos CG doesn't last forever like D3s... I really don't know tho now since I never let this possibility happen wow if he can CG longer then Falco I am surprised.

Also to be honest I always felt Link was in that category with ROB, TL, Peach etc that can do well vs ICs.

So far the common thing I see everyone keep saying when it comes to Link MUs is something like "recovery bad get him offstage we win easy" This was probably true in 2008 - 2009 maybe even 2010...

IC has nothing threatening Link offstage besides a fair. Even that spike is pretty easy to defend compared to many others.
 

Anonano

is the mano, ya know?
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SoPo can CG to like 50% and then fsmash Link offstage. He better hope Link DIs down and away and then dairs or uairs on top of it because fsmash is under no circumstances going to kill Link or lead him to a gimp...can't say the same out of a 70% fsmash with Link. Link can eat a bair or nair from SoPo at that percent, offstage, and still make it back.

When it comes to up close, Link wins versus SoPo. Moves like ftilt knock Link into perfect range for Link to attack while SoPo deals with the lag. His jab? Pffft. Same thing. Fsmash is almost guaranteed slower than Link's dsmash (which has comparable range). Most of his moves are good set ups either for his grab or fsmash, and his grab is useless after 50% and his fsmash won't kill Link until 140%+ fresh. Meanwhile, he has absolutely no options to keep Link from spamming him to death except for running at him and using a much weakened uair if Link is platform camping.

You must be a person that thinks Link just dies offstage. Not even nair at 100% is going to lead to a gimp on Link, nor uair at 120% going to lead to a star KO. The fact is that SoPo loses to Link.
 

Huggles828

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Sup guys. So we got a couple videos from the other night playing drunk Super Smash Bros. Good times. I'll upload them for you guys when I get somewhere where I have an internet connection.

Beer canceling ftw!

Edit: I'm not gonna read this wall of text on my phone but I will say ics are not a horrible mu for link. I stopped a solid Georgia player from going solid ics in tourney because he didn't want to deal with my link in that mu . It's -1 or -2. Link can actually fight while running away and can separate the ics pretty well . And lol at sopo even being on the same page as link.
 

Bomber7

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OMG GUYS! TOO SOON... OMFG UNICORNS! I LUUUUURRRRRVVVV UNICRONS! OMERGERDOMERGEROMERGERD! HOLY **** THEY ARE DANCING UNICERNS, MER FERVERERT KERND!

Didn't even know it was my birthday. For you guys, it may be my birthday, but for me, it is just tuesday thursday.

Thanks guys. :)


I'm old now. -_-

Time to go lay in bed and wait for the reaper to come collect me.

I lived a life., I guess. Wasn't good or bad.

Bit of advice. NEVER GET OLD.

ONCE YOU TURN 21, YOU START TO LOSE EVERYTHING!


Your hearing, your mem.... what was I doing again?

Hi guys, my name is Bomber, I use Link casually and for fun! What's up?!
 

Rizen

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We got the birthday date wrong?! I... I am filled with shame.

I'm on these sites way too much so I'm going to only visit every other day. I need to go to bed, darn insomnia.
 

Bomber7

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^
1) that's pretty cool.
2) Not surprised that they finally decided to do this for videogames because I remember seeing an article a year or so ago that said 4D was a technology that was going to be released to the public around this time and in years to come, but for movies.
3) Why focus on an ass of a girl that ain't worth looking at?
4) I like what I see in that thumbnail to the right for the Namco 2012 booth tour. Happy birthday to me.
5) Vibrating seats? Oh that will be popular with the ladies.... :3
 

Vinnie

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I am actually being fairly generous saying its -2. Considering I have yet to play a TOP IC like Vinnie etc... I honestly think its possibly even or -1 but can't say so until I see high level Link vs IC gameplay.
Are you on crack? I could agree to +1.5 popo's favor, but if I'm allowed to use both climbers, it's definitely unwinnable. Trust me, top ICs are wayyyy ahead of the rest of the ICs. You don't get more than 3 chances. I could see if an IC was really sloppy and dropped every grab and killed themselves 2/3 stocks, but a top IC will never not 3 stock a Link. Sorry dude.

Edit: Kirinblaze (the best Link in the world) is in my region. Although I haven't really done the MU much with him, I could say that Link is ****ing ass and every time I've seen him win, he outplayed the **** out of them. ICs vs Link sounds terrible and Link would have to SOMEHOW outcamp a 0-death grab with the 2nd worst character in the game. Good luck. lol
 

LordXav1er

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There is no unwinnable MU for Link. Seems you haven't played a top Link yourself so your opinion is just as valid as mine in that case. Try actually grabbing Link when your grab range isn't anything but laughable compared to the rest of characters that beat Link by grabbing. I can tell you even Pikachu doesn't enjoy it. And he is faster and more likely to grab Link then an ICs ever will.

LINK IS NOT 2ND WORST ANYMORE. Maybe if you live in the past he is.
 

Anonano

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I guarantee you even TOP ICs are going to be dropping a lot more grabs than three when Link's holding a bomb in his hand.

And +1.5 Popo's favor? You're kidding not only yourself but the whole community, Vinnie.
 

Z'zgashi

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when Link's holding a bomb in his hand.
ICs can make you force drop your bomb during a grab, grab the bomb with the other IC, and throw it away. Ive seen Vinnie and like, 2 other ICs do it to Toon Links and Snake's nades before.
 

LordXav1er

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Believe what you want but Link has no -4s. A lot of -3s and -2s. Its not like I said Link was amazing or anything. But if we want to play like children we can.

Falco coming the closest to -4 out of everyone in the cast.
 

Tesh

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Can we set up some kind of hype money match. Some top Link vs Vinnie's sopo(at SKTAR)? I think that could be pretty hype.
On the off chance the Link wins, we follow it up with both ICs vs Link (at Apex).
 

Anonano

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So the answer to my question is "Why yes, Ano, I actually am one of those people!" I've always appreciated prompt and honest responses :)
 

Rizen

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ICs can make you force drop your bomb during a grab, grab the bomb with the other IC, and throw it away. Ive seen Vinnie and like, 2 other ICs do it to Toon Links and Snake's nades before.
No they can't. Anytime a character holding an item is hit there is a very small chance they will drop that item.

Can people saying Link loses to SoPo or Link loses to ICs worse than -2 post some evidence supporting these claims?

___________________________
http://smashboards.com/threads/official-swf-matchup-chart-v3-0.338390/page-10#post-15675221
^
So much Link hate. At least get the facts strait :facepalm:
 

Bomber7

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No they can't. Anytime a character holding an item is hit there is a very small chance they will drop that item.

Do you know how small of a chance we talking about? A couple of months ago, I was playing around with TL, and I could swear I was able to drop my bomb on command when I was hit. Which all I really did was hit Z at a certain time after being hit and I found the bomb would drop. It seemed to happen more consistently than what would be described as a small chance. I could be wrong, but it's just something I remember observing.
 

Rizen

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Do you know how small of a chance we talking about? A couple of months ago, I was playing around with TL, and I could swear I was able to drop my bomb on command when I was hit. Which all I really did was hit Z at a certain time after being hit and I found the bomb would drop. It seemed to happen more consistently than what would be described as a small chance. I could be wrong, but it's just something I remember observing.
It might be more frequent if the Link player is mashing Z. I don't really know.

It's not something that can be forced by the other player. I use bombs a lot and can only think of 2 times Link has dropped a bomb from being hit. This was 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hoHXgN72Yzk#t=243s

If Link's holding a bomb and gets grabbed he's not being smart with the bomb.
 

Bomber7

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It's probably something that will need to be looking into a little further I think. Never hurts to double check our work.
 

Rizen

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FoxIsOpenlyDeceptive might be able to help figure it out. I've never been able to intentionally drop bombs in hitstun.
 
D

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X, the Ice Climbers vs. Link matchup is definitely not that bad for Link. Link is clearly Ice Climbers worst matchup (still very good) in the low tiers. However, it is not even at all. Your only actual win vs ICs is ONE game vs mine. I had no idea what to do in the MU and you did. You got double 2 stocked by Silver Alloy and you have never played any other notable ICs. Link can run away and throw projectiles but it is much easier for ICs to grab link then it is to grab Tink. The matchup is +2 for Ice Climbers.
 

Rizen

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Easy archive of people who played the MU saying it's -2:
IC vs Link at worst is -2
Link vs ICs:
[...]
Like X said, -2.
I'd say it hovers somewhere between -2 and -3.
It's -1 or -2.
X, the Ice Climbers vs. Link matchup is definitely not that bad for Link. Link is clearly Ice Climbers worst matchup (still very good) in the low tiers. The matchup is +2 for Ice Climbers.
The only argument against this is 'Link is a bad character' which is not a MU argument.
 
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