Le Lazy Lurking Link's Listen/Laugh Lounge ♪~ (^ 。^=)

[Z'zgashi]

Compare this:

Spoiler

To this:

Spoiler

There are far more unwinnable MUs in Melee than there are in Brawl, and brawl has an extra 10ish characters (and the way the Melee chart works, is theyre estimating how many games out of 10 on average each character should win, so both 1s and 0s are effectively unwinnable in tournament play while in Brawl only -4 is considered unwinnable, yet there are many times -4's have gone the other way).

 

[Rizen]

^A MU also means best of 3 with CPs, strikes and bans not only one game but that was impressive. I think the DK/DDD MU was changed to -/+3. IDK why people call him 'Daydayday', it's Dedede- strong 'E' sound.

People have this mindset that some MUs are 'free' but that's why people actually lose to characters like Ganon. There are no free wins vs really good people; if somebody thinks that way they'll be in for a rude awakening. Some MUs are completely 1 sided but bad characters can make the opponent work for the win.

______________
I didn't play Melee competitively so I don't have an opinion on that.

Edit:
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa108/worldjem7/simple1a.png
Who's Purin (5th down)? Bowser's called Koopa, is this a Japanese list?

 

[Heero Yuy]

It's not even by looking at a sole matchup chart alone. In Melee, I've realized over time it's less about the matchups and more about the skill level. It has way many more factors such with all the Melee mechanics (wavedashing, L-cancelling, etc.) and tech skill that leads to more fluctuating tournament results with characters - which is a good thing. High-ranking low tier characters are more common in Melee for its greater need of these tech skill, indicating more balance overall.

I'm not saying it doesn't apply to Brawl, too, but the fact that Brawl has a much more limited technical game holds back the lower tiers from competing with the upper leagues. Sure there's Link with all of his DACUSing and arrow locking, but it could only get him so far to place subpar in tournaments. No matter how much tech skill a Ganon player has, Snake's Utilt still outweighs heavily the best of the Ganon metagame due to Ganon's greater limitations. Ganon's probably the perfect example because due to L-cancelling being removed, his laggy moves in Melee became his ultimate weakness in Brawl. Low-tiers in Brawl are generally more limited. Melee's mechanics gave him even more potential to compete at a higher level to reduce the lag of Link's moves, increase his ground speed, etc.

(Gah I really tried my best to not sound like a ranting Melee fanboy...)

Edit:

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa108/worldjem7/simple1a.png
Who's Purin (5th down)? Bowser's called Koopa, is this a Japanese list?

Purin is Jigglypuff in Japanese. And yes, this is a Japanese tier list.

 

[Z'zgashi]

As someone who was part of the MU panels and has access to the discussions, DK/DDD wasnt even put up for a change from either side, and in v3 wont be changed when it comes out. And thats v2 right there, the most current one.

And I agree, in Brawl, there are no 'free win MUs'. However, in Melee, against some of the REALLY bad characters, there are a few free win characters, like playing Marth against Kirby; Marth is faster and his fair on landing CANNOT be punished by Kirby, in fact, NOTHING Kirby has can even contest with Marth short hop L canceling fairs over and over again, absolutely nothing. Same with Marth against Pichu/Mewtwo, Marth's fair beats their projectiles. As a Mario/Yoshi/Bowser player in Melee, I absolutely CANNOT play Bowser against Sheik, Sheiks nair, fair, and ftilt beat even my fair, and her needles force me to approach a character who can literally standing ftilt to beat everything but firebreath which is punishable on hit. At least in Brawl I can play Bowser against DDD and ICs and I have options, even if those options are heavily outclassed.

 

[Rizen]

Oh Purin is Jigglypuff. (duh, lol)

DK/DDD is now -/+ 3 btw. See the Final Preparations thread.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Oh it is? Wow, I must not of seen it lol, Im a dumb.

But even then, 11 unwinnable MUs in Brawl with 37 characters (DK/DDD and Jiggs/GW is going to -3, maybe even more if Im missing any changes) and 36 unwinnable MUs in Melee with 26 characters (9 if you only want to count 0s, which is still worse than 11 out of 37 percentage wise, ESPECIALLY if you want to go by the amount of total MUs in the game). 11 out of 666 for Brawl is 1.7% of MUs, 9 out of 325 for Melee is 2.8% of MUs; even worse is 36 out of 325 for 11.1%.

 

[Heero Yuy]

And I agree, in Brawl, there are no 'free win MUs'. However, in Melee, against some of the REALLY bad characters, there are a few free win characters, like playing Marth against Kirby; Marth is faster and his fair on landing CANNOT be punished by Kirby, in fact, NOTHING Kirby has can even contest with Marth short hop L canceling fairs over and over again, absolutely nothing. Same with Marth against Pichu/Mewtwo, Marth's fair beats their projectiles. As a Mario/Yoshi/Bowser player in Melee, I absolutely CANNOT play Bowser against Sheik, Sheiks nair, fair, and ftilt beat even my fair, and her needles force me to approach a character who can literally standing ftilt to beat everything but firebreath which is punishable on hit. At least in Brawl I can play Bowser against DDD and ICs and I have options, even if those options are heavily outclassed.

Sorry but this is a complete opinion. Luigi's superb wavedash in Melee grants him plenty of mobility. Despite having a -2 advantage against the spacies and other high tiers, a good Luigi player can space well a wavedash for faster ground movement and use it as an approach option or tech chase.

Another example, Yoshi - a low-tier character indeed - also has a similar advantage to what I mentioned above. He can literally fit into the same category as how you explained Bowser, and in fact probably has as much potential as his mid-tier Brawl counterpart. In spite of Yoshi's poor air game and approach options, his above average wavedash grants him an excellent approach option to land a Fair or just mindgame the opponent all day. Heck, this one technique grants a lot of abysmal characters options to edgeguard the higher tiers.

If you just wanna talk about Bowser alone, Gimpyfish and DJ Nintendo are both Bowser players whom are able to use Melee's mechanics to their advantage to win against their nigh-unwinnable matchups. These tech skills are absent in Brawl which is why it's far more difficult for the lower tiers to place higher in tournaments.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Another example, Yoshi - a low-tier character indeed - also has a similar advantage to what I mentioned above. He can literally fit into the same category as how you explained Bowser, and in fact probably has as much potential as his mid-tier Brawl counterpart.

Sorry, but this is COMPLETELY wrong. I MAIN Yoshi in Brawl and he is FAR MORE VIABLE than Melee Yoshi, ANYBODY who plays either game's Yoshi can tell you that. BY FAR. Melee Yoshi's viability is more comparable to Brawl Bowser's or Brawl Mario's, and this is coming from someone who plays all those characters. In fact, as a Mario main in Melee, Id say Melee Mario is only a bit more viable than Brawl Yoshi.

 

[Heero Yuy]

Sorry, but this is COMPLETELY wrong. I MAIN Yoshi in Brawl and he is FAR MORE VIABLE than Melee Yoshi, ANYBODY who plays either game's Yoshi can tell you that. BY FAR. Melee Yoshi's viability is more comparable to Brawl Bowser's or Brawl Mario's, and this is coming from someone who plays all those characters. In fact, as a Mario main in Melee, Id say Melee Mario is only a bit more viable than Brawl Yoshi.

Funny how you capitalize your words to assert more. However, there's no backing support in sight, so...

Alright, I'll give you that MU's do come into play in Melee, but they are a far smaller deciding factor than in Brawl. The reason Yoshi is generally a better character is because of his buff he got from Brawl in KO power and whatnot in his aerials and recovery. Yoshi's metagame in Melee is different in almost every aspect. His mobility far exceeds that of Brawl Yoshi's, for example, even if you equalize the frame rate of both games. He plays much differently but mastering his metagame (which is completely different from Brawl's) guarantees a higher spot than what its tier says.

Edit: I'll also note that Melee Yoshi relies heavily on edge guarding, which isn't as crucial in Brawl because it has better recoveries in general. I also do think that Yoshi is a really underrated character in Melee, but moreso for reasons nobody uses him for the great stuff he's got.

 

[Z'zgashi]

There is quite a bit of backing actually, its widely accepted that Brawl Yoshi was just a buffed version of Melee Yoshi since he was given a recovery, Egg Lay went from almost useless to one of his best moves, his grabs are much better, he now has a chain grab in Brawl, Yoshi was given much more kill power, he has better frame data as a whole in Brawl, and much more, literally the ONLY thing Melee Yoshi has on Brawl Yoshi is a better dsmash, but thats more attributed to the lack of long recoveries in Melee since his semi spike on it was deadly. (Also, as for mobility, Melee in general is more mobile, so while Melee Yoshi is technically more mobile, in comparison to the REST of the cast in Melee, Melee Yoshi isnt THAT much more mobile than the rest of the cast, while in Brawl, Yoshi is one of the most mobile characters in the game due to his BEST IN GAME air speed, great b reverses, great run speed, double jump cancels, etc)

And I know theyre very different characters playstyle wise between the two games (I play Yoshi in both lol...), that was never what I was saying though. I was saying Brawl Yoshi is a lot better than Melee Yoshi and that players could do just as well in Brawl tournaments with Brawl Bowser/Mario as you could in Melee tournaments with Melee Yoshi. Melee Mario is definitely better than Brawl Yoshi, but not really by much, and from playing all those characters Id say:
Melee Mario >> Brawl Yoshi >>>>>>> Melee Yoshi > Brawl Mario > Brawl Bowser >>>>> Melee Bowser

 

[Heero Yuy]

Um, mobility wise Melee Yoshi is better, period. Both are fairly high on the running speed, but Melee Yoshi has a wavedash whereas Brawl Yoshi doesn't. And again, Yoshi's (defensive) Melee metagame consists more of movement and edgeguarding, in which Brawl Yoshi can be played more aggressively - which I suppose led to more success for Brawl Yoshis. Do also note that comboing is easier in Melee, where it's one area that I think exceeds Brawl Yoshi. It lies more in the fact that Yoshi mains are very, very rare in Melee. Aside from Leffen and V3ctor (who place modest to high in tournaments with their Yoshis, though note the former isn't a Yoshi main), Yoshi has a lot of stuff in his ridiculous Melee mobility that is hidden.

And Brawl Bowser being better than Melee Bowser is ridiculous. Though I can agree that Yoshi (both games) is better than him, Bowser's options in Brawl are more limited due to there being no way to cancel his laggy aerials and promote his already lackluster mobility. While I can agree they're roughly the same in general tournament placings, there have been two notable Bowser mains in Melee that posed as threats to national-level play while there hasn't really been one in Brawl I can name.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Um, mobility wise Melee Yoshi is better, period. Both are fairly high on the running speed, but Melee Yoshi has a wavedash whereas Brawl Yoshi doesn't. And again, Yoshi's (defensive) Melee metagame consists more of movement and edgeguarding, in which Brawl Yoshi can be played more aggressively - which I suppose led to more success for Brawl Yoshis. Do also note that comboing is easier in Melee, where it's one area that I think exceeds Brawl Yoshi. It lies more in the fact that Yoshi mains are very, very rare in Melee. Aside from Leffen and V3ctor (who place modest to high in tournaments with their Yoshis, though note the former isn't a Yoshi main), Yoshi has a lot of stuff in his ridiculous Melee mobility that is hidden.

Lol, I dont think youre understanding what I mean, Im saying compared to the other characters in the game theyre in. EVERY Melee character pretty much is more mobile than EVERY Brawl character, but Melee Yoshi's mobility compared to other Melee characters, is less good than Brawl Yoshi's mobility compared to other Brawl characters.

And Brawl Bowser being better than Melee Bowser is ridiculous. Bowser's options in Brawl are more limited due to there being no way to cancel his laggy aerials and promote his already lackluster mobility. While I can agree they're roughly the same in general tournament placings, there have been two notable Bowser mains in Melee that posed as threats to national-level play while there hasn't really been one in Brawl I can name.

Once again, compared to the other characters in the game theyre in. OBVIOUSLY having a wave dash and L canceling instantly makes you better than Brawl Bowser, but Melee Bowser compared to other Melee characters in REALLY BAD, and Brawl Bowser compared to other Brawl characters is noticeably less bad in comparison. Do you see what I mean know? Do you get how Im making these comparisons now?

 

[Heero Yuy]

Lol, I dont think youre understanding what I mean, Im saying compared to the other characters in the game theyre in. EVERY Melee character pretty much is more mobile than EVERY Brawl character, but Melee Yoshi's mobility compared to other Melee characters, is less good than Brawl Yoshi's mobility compared to other Brawl characters.

You were underestimating Yoshi's mobility, like, completely. And compared to the other characters in the game? Yeah, Yoshi's way, WAY faster than most of the other characters. Yoshi in Melee has the 9th fastest dashing speed in the game, plus having tied with 4th of the best wavedashes in the game (as good as Marth's, who's known to be a mobile character). Of course, Yoshi's much slower than the rest of the cast alright. But no, I would honestly say he's as fast as Pikachu, and at the most Sheik (where both these characters have poor wavedashes/wavelands).

Once again, compared to the other characters in the game theyre in. OBVIOUSLY having a wave dash and L canceling instantly makes you better than Brawl Bowser, but Melee Bowser compared to other Melee characters in REALLY BAD, and Brawl Bowser compared to other Brawl characters is noticeably less bad in comparison. Do you see what I mean know? Do you get how Im making these comparisons now?

Noticeably less bad? Did you not read when I mentioned Gimpy and DJNintendo whom have high tourney places with Bowser? Back onto the topic of balancing (which Idk how we trailed off from that), Melee's mechanics offer plenty of more options for Bowser to play at top level. Yes, I agree that he's a bad character overall, but he holds more potential than his Brawl counterpart. You initially started the argument of balance, and I'm only giving options to why low-tier Melee characters can more easily compete with the major leagues of Melee and therefore aren't as bad compared to the others, but I think you have completely the wrong idea that I'm merely saying that "if Melee Bowser and Brawl Bowser fought, Melee Bowser would win lolol."

 

[Tesh]

i can take this argument seriously whiile you both use the same color font

 

[Rizen]

^can or can't?
____________________________
Here's what Link's next MU spread is:

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:

I'm happy to say it looks more accurate. The only change I wanted that we didn't get was Samus to 0 (C Falcon's harder than her :/ ).

 

[Heero Yuy]

Good lawd Ike should be -1, I don't think he's that bad. I also kinda feel that Kirby is -3 (he has his own wall of pain that's outrageous).

 

[Rizen]

I can see those. For Kirby there wasn't enough evidence to make the claim he's -3 and he could be a hard -2. Ike's probably -1 but it was close enough to -2 and there wasn't great evidence.
Link has a lot of borderline MUs that could go either way and most of them ended up on the worse side.
Bowser/Jiggz could be +1s.
Samus should be 0. Zelda maybe could go 0.
Yoshi/ZSS/Ike could be hard -1s.
Kirby/Fox/Sheik might be easy -3s or hard -2s.

It feels weird seeing MUs like Fox and Ike in the same category as -2s but the system's far from perfect.

 

[Z'zgashi]

If you want my personal input, Bowser vs Link is closer to 0 than +1 for Bowser imo, so that looks right, but Yoshi vs. Link is definitely -2.

 

[Rizen]

Yoshi's CG puts it at -2. Yoshi has good CP options too. It's kind of weird saying Yoshi and Fox (or another hard -2) are both -2s because Yoshi is much easier. The system's not great in that way.

I agree Bowser is better as even but if I had to lean one way I'd say Link has a very slight advantage.

I would move Ike and Samus to an easier category but in general the chart looks good.

 

[Anonano]

Sorry, Z'z. I can't take any of your theories seriously. For starters, you have to come to the tourney today to prove your
[quote="Z'zgashi, post: 15614390, member: 149572"Link is pretty easy for Yoshi since one grab is a chain grab to the ledge and then a free nair, and then I have you way offstage and can just edge guard lol.[/quote]
theory for me to even consider the Yoshi/Link MU a -2.

Come play today :<

 

[Z'zgashi]

I have family over so I couldnt. And you shouldve gone to the lock in, we couldve played there for literally like, 8 hours straight lol.

 

[Bomber7]

All I see is blue font. Feel free to PM when it's all gone. @_@

 

[Anonano]

I have family over so I couldnt

Funny, I swear there's always a reason you don't make it anymore

In any case, yeah, I've been missing the last couple of events myself because of family. But you ALWAYS have an excuse for not making tournaments :<

 

[Z'zgashi]

Funny, I swear there's always a reason you don't make it anymore

lol outside of random last second smashfests that are over an hour away, Ive only missed two things in the past 2-3 months; the tournament just last weekend due to my family from Ohio flying in to stay a week for the 4th of July, and the Salt Fest since I didnt have the money and was going through some life problems (I was basically homeless that week, with very little money at my disposal that I had to live off of) Even around that time at normal Kafeneios events, I showed up and played friendlies, I just didnt enter due to lack of money. The last couple events though (outside of last week) I came and entered (I even took 5th at the last Kafeneio's tournament). I would show up to the random smashfests by you, but I dont have a car and if I cant get a ride, its hard to travel the hour and a half just to smashfests.

 

[Rizen]

^that sucks I hope things get better for you soon.

 

[Rizen]

Bump.
Happy 4th of July USA Links .

I played some wifi yesterday but my stupid controlstick without protective plastic skin cuts into my thumb . The one I ordered is on backorder so I have to pace my playing for a while :/ I don't want this to happen again: http://imageshack.us/scaled/large/694/thumbbruse003.jpg

An annoying thing about MK is playing as him teaches new players to rely on bad habits like spamming the same move, rolling a lot and being overly aggressive without mindgames.

Edit:
<-Avatar updated btw. My old one was made a lo-o-o-ong time ago with starter photos on Photoshop 5.5.

 

[Bomber7]

Nice Rizen! Also Happy 4th to you all!

Though in these times, I find it ironic we celebrate independence under the rule of 300 tyrants. :x

 

[Heero Yuy]

Happy Fourth, my fellow knights of Hyrule!

...Unfortunately, I'm all the way in Philippines right now for vacation. So no fireworks and no Smash Bros... The best I can do right now is stream videos of various Links. Oh well.

P.S. Liking that new pic, Rizen.

P.S.S. I somehow agree with the latter half of your post, Bomber.

 

[Rizen]

^It's important to remember that it's getting better. We have better freedom of speech, religion, rights to vote regardless of race/gender etc.

And thanks (about my avatar)

 

[Bomber7]

^It's important to remember that it's getting better. We have better freedom of speech, religion, rights to vote regardless of race/gender etc.

And thanks (about my avatar)

I don't see how things are getting better when we still have freedom of speech and religion limited and tainted by political correctness and double standards. The right to vote really isn't an issue in this country anymore (unless it's fraud) because we've all agreed that every US citizen has a right to vote. The real world is scary. The real world is full of stupid people and you scratch your head and wonder how they get away with half the stuff they do. Yada yada. This isn't the place for a political debate. Enjoy your pseudo celebrations y'all. At the end of the day, we still are considered a "free" country with rights endowed by our creator, and despite how corrupt and deviated this country has become from the Constitution, the Enlightenment ideals embedded within the structure of this country's founding will ensure that eventually the right people rise doing what is needed when we are on the brink of destruction.

 

[Rizen]

At the end of the day, we still are considered a "free" country with rights endowed by our creator, and despite how corrupt and deviated this country has become from the Constitution,

How has the constitution corrupted anything? No creator endows rights, the constitution does.
I don't get what you're saying? :/

 

[Heero Yuy]

^

This isn't the place for a political debate.

Anyhow, on-topic. Do any of you play Project M? I recently dropped Link (and by extension, dropped Brawl temporarily in general due to Melee becoming my top priority for the time being) because playing as Link in Brawl was a nightmare. I like his playstyle more in P:M, anyway. If yes from anyone, please do play with me sometime.

 

[Bomber7]

Declaration of Independence: "We hold these truths to be self eveident that all men are created equal, endowed by their creator certain unalienable rights; life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." - Despite not being law like the Constitution, it is still a document of significance outlining what US philosophy is.

Also, do not misunderstand, I said we as a country have become corrupt and we as a country have deviated (or corrupted) from some or much of what the Constitution has set into place. The Constitution has not corrupted anything. Its Amendments reflect the American philosophy outlined in the Declaration of Independence. I just realized that you misinterpreted the meaning of my use of "from". It was supposed to be read in the context of "away from" not "because of".

 

[Z'zgashi]

By their creator it means god lol. I mean, I dont believe in any god, but thats what it means xD

 

[Heero Yuy]

Just keep in mind that more than half of the countries in the world are more corrupt than we are. Pakistan, North Korea, Egypt, etc. are all in harsher shape than America. You can't necessarily blame the government (like Bomber said, it lies more in how we - the people - make it through the amendments) in America, but in those places on the other hand.

 

[Bomber7]

By their creator it means god lol. I mean, I dont believe in any god, but thats what it means xD

It's a delicate thing to say that. Collectively, each colony was founded on the idea of religious freedom, however it was Christian (Protestant) dominated; I'm sure we've all heard the story about how unbearable the Church of England made it for anyone who didn't belong to it. As a nation, we believe in the idea of people coming to this country and being allowed to practice their religion without persecution, so "by their creator" was ingeniously devised to compliment that belief. It's hard to say the US was founded a Christian nation when respectively we were made up of our Christian founded colonies who identified themselves more like a co-existing entity with what we know as the US federal government, however, their's no denying the fact that we were heavily influenced by Judeo-Christian ideologies (which I'm not complaining). All the same, I can't imagine living in any other country, not with founding principles and documents to support it like the DOI and BOR.

@Heeroyuy- I don't play P:M on my own, but when a set-up is available at local tournies I play a bunch of friendlies. Link in P:M is my favorite to play only next to 64 Link. He has the better recovery of Brawl, and has somewhat of a similar fighting flow of 64, not as hard or solid hitting as 64 mind you, but still #2 in my heart. Also they let him have 3 bombs out at once instead of 2. A MUCH NEEDED BUFF (if you can call it that). Well, needed for me at least. lol.

 

[Anonano]

I'm feeling you, Heero; took a short break from Brawl, then competed in a club Smash64 tournament with Melee on the side; then played P:M for three hours today with friends, and after playing the other Link incarnations it is appalling how optionless Brawl Link is. I might drop Brawl for a little while myself to reinvigorate my Melee Link.

Rizen won't mind, since he thinks my Link is horribad.

 

[Heero Yuy]

then played P:M for three hours today with friends, and after playing the other Link incarnations it is appalling how optionless Brawl Link is. I might drop Brawl for a little while myself to reinvigorate my Melee Link.

Couldn't have described my situation any better. Though I seldom use Link in Melee due to a lot of matchups I find overwhelmingly difficult. Here's hoping you're more successful with him than I was.

Bomber, I also very much enjoy Link's buffs in his projectiles. However, somehow I miss his Zair spamming in Brawl...

That awkward moment when I realize Brawl's best Link is Lord Xav1er and Melee's best Link is Lord HDL...

 

[Z'zgashi]

It's a delicate thing to say that. Collectively, each colony was founded on the idea of religious freedom, however it was Christian (Protestant) dominated; I'm sure we've all heard the story about how unbearable the Church of England made it for anyone who didn't belong to it. As a nation, we believe in the idea of people coming to this country and being allowed to practice their religion without persecution, so "by their creator" was ingeniously devised to compliment that belief. It's hard to say the US was founded a Christian nation when respectively we were made up of our Christian founded colonies who identified themselves more like a co-existing entity with what we know as the US federal government, however, their's no denying the fact that we were heavily influenced by Judeo-Christian ideologies (which I'm not complaining). All the same, I can't imagine living in any other country, not with founding principles and documents to support it like the DOI and BOR.

@Heeroyuy- I don't play P:M on my own, but when a set-up is available at local tournies I play a bunch of friendlies. Link in P:M is my favorite to play only next to 64 Link. He has the better recovery of Brawl, and has somewhat of a similar fighting flow of 64, not as hard or solid hitting as 64 mind you, but still #2 in my heart. Also they let him have 3 bombs out at once instead of 2. A MUCH NEEDED BUFF (if you can call it that). Well, needed for me at least. lol.

Look at the pledge of allegiance, 'under god, indivisible'. Just because the majority of everyone in the US was Catholic back in the making of the declaration days and they decided to make catholic references =/= anti freedom of religion in any way.

 

[Bomber7]

Believe it or not, America was established by Protestants. Catholics were hated and kept in Europe. It's all because of the protestant reformation, then England taking it most to heart, their king establishing the church of England forward to the people we know as pilgrims going to America. I learned in my history class, Maryland was the first and only Catholic founded colony, which was one of the first to practice true religious tolerance, though wound up losing its Catholic dominance to Protestantism anyway over the years since its founding (just through natural processes, no revolution or anything).

I also feel that there's this misunderstood notion that just because a country/state claims itself to be of a certain religion or faith, it's impossible to still have any form of religious tolerance and freedom to let others to practice their religion without persecution. At least that's how I feel what you said by "Look at the pledge of allegiance, 'under god, indivisible'. Just because the majority of everyone in the US was Catholic back in the making of the declaration days and they decided to make catholic references =/= anti freedom of religion in any way."

Another thing you should know is that our pledge was originally written without the phrase "Under God", however because the US is highly influenced by Judeo-Christian ideology, it was just thrown in there naturally. I still think the pledge should be said no matter where you are, if you don't believe in God, just don't say it. Don't understand why people want to create lawsuits over it. It's so immature. Another interesting tidbit is that the oath the president takes, "So help me God." was thrown in by George Washington. It's just been said over the years due to tradition.

History is fun to talk about. :D