Lag-free online fighting? Absolutely! (GGPO.net)

[Infil]

For those of you who are into the Street Fighter scene, you've no doubt already heard about this absolutely amazing development for online fighters. It's called GGPO (good game, peace out), and introduces a new way to hide latency from online fighters so there is virtually ZERO lag. It sounds too good to be true, but a good SF buddy of mine has already been using GGPO to play Alpha 2 against the big names from California (Watson, Valle, etc), and he says it's more or less just like playing in the living room (we live in Canada). Once the kinks are worked out, as the product is still in the alpha stage, I imagine this will be HUGE. It's already huge among hardcore fighting fans.

I wonder about Brawl's development, and if Nintendo even knows about this recent development. If they could find a way to get this algorithm for Brawl, you can bet online play would be vastly, vastly improved over any solution they currently have.

It's exciting to think that Brawl could be virtually free of lag online (within reason of course!), however, it's also disappointing to realize this solution has perhaps come out too late for it to be included in Brawl. I sure hope Nintendo is able to get their hands on this!

 

[SuperMarcusBros]

wow that would be awesome with lag free fights

 

[Black/Light]

Well, Mario Stikers Charged is said to have great online with virtually 0 lag and thats a high twlich game as well. . . with items and more than 4 characters in 3D.

Nintendo will take care of SSBB online just find. Plus, it might not be too late for this "GGPO" thing your taking about.

 

[The Hymn]

serious? If you are thats great!

if everyone was 100% possitive brawl online didn't have lag there would be a lot less to worry about for poeple like me. sence in smash bros. timing is everything lag would not do.

(told you i put in my 2 cents on online play topics. [inside joke to some poeple])

 

[pikachun00b7]

Good news! No reason NOT to play online.

 

[Katy Parry]

Great news! Can't wait! Just hope they use GGPO.

 

[_Phloat_]

Although, it really doesn't matter for me, I would play with friend in town, I hope they do do this for all those kids that want to show off their WDing to nubcakes

 

[Keige]

If SSB64 works almost lag free (for me it just freezes for a second, but its not lag) then I'm sure SSBB will work okay, at least. But I hope Sakurai does something similar. I'm curious as to how GGPO works
*checks url*
Darn, it doesn't really give a good explanation.

 

[SwordofMarth]

It would seriously rock with no lag

 

[Dantarion]

Idiots...this is a modified emulator called FinalBurn that uses a different way of synching up games(from a glance at the site, it seems to use kaillera still). This has nothing to do with smash, since syncing emulated games is a lot different than actually making a networked game.

Can a mod close this thread before people begin to think that smash or any other game could actually use this.

All this seems to be is a modified emulator.

----------------
EDIT:

Kaillera works by sending the keystrokes of each player in order to synch the game. As a result, if anyone lags, the other peoples game pauses until they aren't lagging, so the games stay in synch. To make it lag less, most kaillera based games have a small input lag, so that if a there is a little bit of lag, its unoticable.

Actual games synch up by sending special packets of information that actually have information about what is going on in the game, like what the players are doing, etc.

When someone lags, it doesn't really effect the rest of the players, since that person doesn't really need the updated data from the other players in to in synch. All that happens is that they see everyone "teleporting" around, since there is such a big lag between position updates from the server.

Smash is being programmed to have online, so it won't be like kaillera. No desynchs :D

 

[bluebomber22]

^^^^
agreed dantarion. brawl isnt going to use this at all

 

[YondaimeMarth]

i am slowly but surely coming to the realization that brawl will not support wifi. it runs too fast and for the quality of audio they are putting in this game it just cannot play online.

 

[Goldkirby]

i am slowly but surely coming to the realization that brawl will not support wifi. it runs too fast and for the quality of audio they are putting in this game it just cannot play online.

I don't think you understand how wi-fi works then.

 

[YondaimeMarth]

I don't think you understand how wi-fi works then.

explain it for me please

 

[Keige]

The audio doesn't matter. The game runs that regardless of what's happening to the other players. Unless you think the Wii is so weak that it can't run audio and use networking functions at the same time.

 

[Toomai]

explain it for me please

The way I understand it, input is the only thing transmitted over the network. Therefore, each Wii runs sounds, visuals, calculations, etc. on their own, while they only collaberate on input, or to sync a random event. Lag doesn't happen because of all the information being sent, it happens simply because information can only go so fast.

 

[Dantarion]

Exactly, this isn't like kaillera, where the game must halt if someone is lagging.

Lagging players will be at a disadvantage.

However, there will HAVE to be input lag, because there is no way for two Wii's to communicate 60 times a second.

EDIT::

Input isn't sent exactly, but the actions resulting from that input do.

For example, it isn't sent that someone is presing "B B B B B B B B", since it only matters what action that button pressing results in, i.e. "Player 1 Fox is a firing his lazer".

The difference is that it is smaller to send actions then it is to send the state of every button and analog stick.

 

[YondaimeMarth]

oh thanks toomal and dantarion i think i understand now.

 

[pikachun00b7]

Lag doesn't happen because of all the information being sent, it happens simply because information can only go so fast.

It goes at the speed of light.

 

[YondaimeMarth]

well i am hoping it goes smoothly and a playable demo at e3

 

[-Wolfy-]

i am slowly but surely coming to the realization that brawl will not support wifi. it runs too fast and for the quality of audio they are putting in this game it just cannot play online.

This jsut saddens me. You have to be under a rock to not have heard Sakurai tell us there will be soem sort of online capabilities, and then they announced that gamespy would be helping manage the matchmaking aspect of Wi-Fi.

Also, I've played PBR, and it's online hasn't lagged for me at all. As quick as each trainer puts in their commands, it continues.

 

[Toomai]

It goes at the speed of light.

That's true. But even the speed of light isn't infinitely fast, and I suspect a normal delay would be about 0.1 seconds, or 6 frames.

 

[pikachun00b7]

That's true. But even the speed of light isn't infinitely fast, and I suspect a normal delay would be about 0.1 seconds, or 6 frames.

299 792 458 mi. / sec. is the speed of light. That is 1998613 miles per frame. So just be within 200,000 miles for frame 1 lag!(We can be at 8000 miles at most apart). So consider two people living the OPPOSITE sides of earth. The lag will be 1/25 FRAMES that is 1/1500 seconds. There will be no lag.

Your statement was 150x exaggerated.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

OMG....


I play Counterstrike Source online FINE.

Im pretty sure they'll figure something out for Brawl, Christ.

 

[Dantarion]

299 792 458 mi. / sec. is the speed of light. That is 1998613 miles per frame. So just be within 200,000 miles for frame 1 lag!(We can be at 8000 miles at most apart). So consider two people living the OPPOSITE sides of earth. The lag will be 1/25 FRAMES that is 1/1500 seconds. There will be no lag.

Your statement was 150x exaggerated.

Your statement makes no sense.

Information on the internet does not travel at the speed of light.

If I ping one of my friends who has the same cable provider as me, the best time I can get is about 15-20 ms at best. Across the US, that time quickly jumps up to 60-120ms.

In order for there to be no lag, the Wii's mush be able to communicate 60 times a second or every 0.016666 seconds.

15ms ping is already at .015 seconds, and that is on a good day.

Now, throw in the fact that everyone isn't going to have 15ms ping with everyone else, and that 4 people may be playing in different parts in the US, and the answer is pretty clear.

THERE WILL BE LAG.

THERE IS LAG IN ALL GAMES, EVEN TURNBASED ONE.

Anyone who believes otherwise, state your points now.

 

[Mr.GAW]

^^^ Agreed. I love when users with low post counts aren't afraid to correct the "veterans" with many posts.

 

[Onifrio]

Your statement makes no sense.

Information on the internet does not travel at the speed of light.

If I ping one of my friends who has the same cable provider as me, the best time I can get is about 15-20 ms at best. Across the US, that time quickly jumps up to 60-120ms.

In order for there to be no lag, the Wii's mush be able to communicate 60 times a second or every 0.016666 seconds.

15ms ping is already at .015 seconds, and that is on a good day.

Now, throw in the fact that everyone isn't going to have 15ms ping with everyone else, and that 4 people may be playing in different parts in the US, and the answer is pretty clear.

THERE WILL BE LAG.

THERE IS LAG IN ALL GAMES, EVEN TURNBASED ONE.

Anyone who believes otherwise, state your points now.

And Im sure dantarion knows this but packets don't go straight from your computer to the computer it's communicating with. They have to go to the ISP and then to the destination's ISP and then the destination...If im not mistaken. Also as for the music. The only way it would slow down gameplay is if the processing power of the wii couldn't process the audio video and the input from you/opponent. If your in a match the music is constantly playing in a thread and doesn't change unless told to do so by an event. Your audio is read off the disc and played on your wii. It's not like your downloading the music from your opponent.

 

[Dantarion]

Right.

Thats why in my example I used someone who has the same ISP as me. The amount of network hardware between you and your opponent is what really creates the lag, not really distance.

Even at lan parties there is lag, even if its just 2-6ms.

I think the misconception about the music was due to someone thinking of the way kaillera works, where lag = stuttering music.

EDIT: And the Wii will be able to handle input/graphics/sound/networking at the same time, I mean, thats what it is designed to do :D

 

[Pegasus Knight]

To further back up Dantarion's points, it's worth emphasizing something that's already been touched upon:

A networked game does not transmit all game data. That is, it does not transmit textures, audio, or other such things to other systems/players. This would require sending multiple megabytes to other players, constantly. Every single game ever would lag mightily under those conditions.

Things like this are instead handled only on the local side. The only information that is sent is things that will change the game-state, and each machine/game-client is left to handle the graphics, sound, etc. on their local end; they are "smart enough" to know what to do when given this information.

I'm probably missing some of the exact technical points of this. But suffice to say, graphical complexity, sound quality, and so forth will virtually never affect network conditions (i.e. true "lag"). Granted, you could toss so many polygons at the game/machine that it takes a framerate hit from rendering all of them, but if that happens...it would lag even in singleplayer mode.

 

[a lot of effs]

GGPO has 1frame of input delay. It's impossible to have anything less unless both players can upload and download 4k a second with less than 15ms. Regardless the game itself compensates and corrects things happening. An example would be during a jump, the trajectory/angle/speed of a jump NEVER CHANGES in Alpha 2 unless you do an attack, so the jump is calculated by your computer, and only changes when the opponent hits a button. Most netcode works like this btw. You don't need and update every frame, just when one happens, and the game corrects it.

I don't know how GGPO makes it near flawless though my MS to Europe is about 100, but like magic I don't have 8frame input delay OR lag to two players I've fought in England.

 

[h2ownage]

Well, Mario Stikers Charged is said to have great online with virtually 0 lag and thats a high twlich game as well. . . with items and more than 4 characters in 3D.

You heard correct, it has almost no lag, just annoying 10 year olds who turn off their Wii just as you score the winning goal.
I'm Australian so I already have Strikers.

 

[YondaimeMarth]

after reading all the replies to this thread i think online will work smoothly now.

 

[nuro]

For those of you who are into the Street Fighter scene, you've no doubt already heard about this absolutely amazing development for online fighters. It's called GGPO (good game, peace out), and introduces a new way to hide latency from online fighters so there is virtually ZERO lag. It sounds too good to be true, but a good SF buddy of mine has already been using GGPO to play Alpha 2 against the big names from California (Watson, Valle, etc), and he says it's more or less just like playing in the living room (we live in Canada). Once the kinks are worked out, as the product is still in the alpha stage, I imagine this will be HUGE. It's already huge among hardcore fighting fans.

I wonder about Brawl's development, and if Nintendo even knows about this recent development. If they could find a way to get this algorithm for Brawl, you can bet online play would be vastly, vastly improved over any solution they currently have.

It's exciting to think that Brawl could be virtually free of lag online (within reason of course!), however, it's also disappointing to realize this solution has perhaps come out too late for it to be included in Brawl. I sure hope Nintendo is able to get their hands on this!

I stopped reading here you have no idea what your talking about.

I play snes games online all the time with emulators. This is a software development for games that have already been made. Games like brawl will use completely different software for its own wifi capabilities not some PC emulator. Comparing Nintendo's abilities to a simple and small software developer is just plan stupid. Nintendo is a 30+ billion dollar industry what your relating to is nothing compared to Nintendo.

 

[Dantarion]

GGPO has 1frame of input delay. It's impossible to have anything less unless both players can upload and download 4k a second with less than 15ms. Regardless the game itself compensates and corrects things happening. An example would be during a jump, the trajectory/angle/speed of a jump NEVER CHANGES in Alpha 2 unless you do an attack, so the jump is calculated by your computer, and only changes when the opponent hits a button. Most netcode works like this btw. You don't need and update every frame, just when one happens, and the game corrects it.

I don't know how GGPO makes it near flawless though my MS to Europe is about 100, but like magic I don't have 8frame input delay OR lag to two players I've fought in England.

GGPO = Kaillera.

And I am pretty sure GGPO players still use the Kaillera setting "Good", which means that the game actually syncs 20 times a second, meaning a max of 3 frames of input lag. All the smash players play with the same setting on Emularena as well.

GGPO cannot compensate for lag in any other way then waiting for the lagging computer to stop lagging. It is a network enabled emulator, and all of them work the same, except for a few nes emulators I know of that can resynch by sending a memory dump :D.

 

[Xanderous]

Twitchy, fast games have been running lag-free for years. What is everyone worried about?

 

[Dantarion]

Twitchy, fast games have been running lag-free for years. What is everyone worried about?

lag-free? No. But many games seem to be lag free, because the lag is so small that you don't notice, or the game uses tricks to hide the fact that it is lagging.

For example, in Counter-Strike, if you are lagging, players that are running forward will just continue to run forward on your screen, because the game assumes that most likely they are still running.

The reason smash will be affected by this, is because there are hardcore gamers that do things like powershield projectiles when they play, which I believe requires pressing the shield button a few frames or even the frame before you are hit.

THERE WILL BE LAG.

The question is, will nintendo do things to make it so we don't notice.
Like, making it eaiser to do things that require precision input.

 

[YondaimeMarth]

lag-free? No. But many games seem to be lag free, because the lag is so small that you don't notice, or the game uses tricks to hide the fact that it is lagging.

For example, in Counter-Strike, if you are lagging, players that are running forward will just continue to run forward on your screen, because the game assumes that most likely they are still running.

The reason smash will be affected by this, is because there are hardcore gamers that do things like powershield projectiles when they play, which I believe requires pressing the shield button a few frames or even the frame before you are hit.

THERE WILL BE LAG.

The question is, will nintendo do things to make it so we don't notice.
Like, making it eaiser to do things that require precision input.

you sure know alot about online play and lagging.

 

[Dantarion]

Thats because I have tried to implement networking code into a 2d platformer type game and networking is full of horrible and fail, especially for someone like me who really has no idea what they were doing.

I ended up learning a lot about how other games do it, and ways to make my networking code not suck.

 

[Takalth]

Just a correction:

The given velocity for the speed of light was the right number but the wrong unit. That number was Meters per second, not Miles per second. Even speed of light communication would have a small lag at 60 frames per second if you're a couple thousand miles away.

 

[Toomai]

Even speed of light communication would have a small lag at 60 frames per second if you're a couple thousand miles away.

Yeah, and that doesn't even account for the fact that technology cannot use the "true" speed of light: there are forced re-routes, fiber optics aren't 100% efficient, wireless may be affected by weather, etc.