L-cancelling gone?

[Aerozeke]

http://brawlcentral.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=918

The NEW l-cancel, I mean--the one where you have to fast-fall before doing an aerial. Has it really been removed in the demo in Japan? I tried searching this forum, but I couldn't find any news of it. A confirmation would be nice.

 

[FoulPlay]

Uhh... I'm not sure.
I mean, if they've removed fast falling cancel and L-Cancel, it'll just be really weird.
I dunno why they're doing this to be honest, this will dramatically change competitive smash.

 

[SomeguyDom]

Uhh... I'm not sure.
I mean, if they've removed fast falling cancel and L-Cancel, it'll just be really weird.
I dunno why they're doing this to be honest, this will dramatically change competitive smash.

indeed it would..

 

[GreatClayMonkey]

Uhh... I'm not sure.
I mean, if they've removed fast falling cancel and L-Cancel, it'll just be really weird.
I dunno why they're doing this to be honest, this will dramatically change competitive smash.

don't know about fast dalling but l-canceling is out. The reason is the physics system was changed.

 

[slikvik]

well, if this is true, the competitive scene will be reduced to shield grab spamming...

 

[SuperLink9]

Fast falling CAN'T be out! Why would they even do that? it's a very important move and isn't even considered glitchy... unlike L-Cancelling and Wavedashing you can tell it's in there on purpose.

Personally I dunno. I always found L-Cancelling incredibly handy, it'll be a shame if it's gone.

 

[Sanu]

They probably read Gimpyfish's report to see what to fix XD

Brawl = *shrugs*

 

[Rhubarbo]

Imagine it this way:

Let's say L-Cancelling was NEVER discovered (either was wavedashing). People would enjoy Smash just as much. Seriously though, they would STUPID to remove fast falling! I think Smashers have problems to adaptation. See, now you can actually play Smash considering the fact that these glitches have been removed. Brawl is indeed less technical, but Melee was not intended to be technical to begin with!

 

[Rhubarbo]

They probably read Gimpyfish's report to see what to fix XD

Brawl = *shrugs*

As in you are not interested in Brawl? Then why are you on these forums?

 

[Yigguth]

I doubt it's out, but I also doubt things like this will change competitive smash. The better player always wins.

 

[Sanu]

As in you are not interested in Brawl? Then why are you on these forums?

Why are you trying to analyze my opinion so closely? Why do you care so much about what I think? What pertinence does that have to this discussion? And, lastly, who are you to question where I surf and what I read?

 

[Aminar]

I don't get why it matters. All L-cancelling does is reward twitching in melee. The new L-Cancel sounded interesting, it could make certain aerials un L-cancelaable or unshfflble for balance, but if it's gone they already cut down on Aerial landing lag anyway. It shouldn't change the game any to remove it.
This post is directed at complaints about it being gone, not the relevance of the topic.

 

[FoulPlay]

Fast falling CAN'T be out! Why would they even do that? it's a very important move and isn't even considered glitchy... unlike L-Cancelling and Wavedashing you can tell it's in there on purpose.

Personally I dunno. I always found L-Cancelling incredibly handy, it'll be a shame if it's gone.

We, or at least I, wasn't meaning Fast Falling.
I was meaning the lag that is removed from Fast Falling an Aerial in brawl which was found out by Gimpy Fish etc at E4All.

 

[slikvik]

but if it's gone they already cut down on Aerial landing lag anyway. It shouldn't change the game any to remove it.
This post is directed at complaints about it being gone, not the relevance of the topic.

if the reduced lag isnt enough, people will just spam sheild grabs. it will change the game to remove. we lose depth

 

[Metalknux]

well, if this is true, the competitive scene will be reduced to shield grab spamming...

No, the competitive scene will be reduced to discovering new techniques...

 

[JayceMJ]

Has anyone even tried to grab tech in the demo (grab while they're grabbing to push out of a grab). If that's added there's no reason to fear shield grabbing.

 

[Santini]

It really wouldn't surprise me if they took it out. After all, they've already made their stance pretty clear with removing wavedashing and the dumbing down of edgeguarding and item catching.

But I think this was going a little far.
Anyways, Here's to finding some more advanced techniques!

 

[Aminar]

if the reduced lag isnt enough, people will just spam sheild grabs. it will change the game to remove. we lose depth

No worse than Melee with L cancelling, which while it has lots of shield-grabbing isn't that bad. Not to mention being grabbed in brawl is supposed to be not nearly as bad as it was in melee and nothing compared to ssb64

 

[Rhubarbo]

Why would they arbitrarily remove fastfalling now if it was included in the E4 ALL demo? THis whole conversation is hypothetical, so no need to worry. The odds of them removing fastfalling is really low!

 

[slikvik]

Why would they arbitrarily remove fastfalling now if it was included in the E4 ALL demo? THis whole conversation is hypothetical, so no need to worry. The odds of them removing fastfalling is really low!

not hypothetical. read the thread in the link

Buzz: "That was the American demo at E4All. Gimpyfish was talking a more recent demo released in Japan. He has a friend there who fed him information (a reliable source: Kei, formely of the crew SKYPAL)."

 

[gangstajuice02]

it is!!????? i hope it's NOT!!

 

[2.72]

I dunno why they're doing this to be honest, this will dramatically change competitive smash.

Not necessarily. Land lag from aerials has already been significantly reduced, so if it is reduced to the level of L-canceling, then the only change is that people won't press L or R when they hit the ground after performing an aerial. It might change the casual scene, but not the competitive one.

 

[Xanderous]

Not necessarily. Land lag from aerials has already been significantly reduced, so if it is reduced to the level of L-canceling, then the only change is that people won't press L or R when they hit the ground after performing an aerial. It might change the casual scene, but not the competitive one.

This is correct.

 

[Card]

Not necessarily. Land lag from aerials has already been significantly reduced, so if it is reduced to the level of L-canceling, then the only change is that people won't press L or R when they hit the ground after performing an aerial. It might change the casual scene, but not the competitive one.

This is correct

Quoted For Truth.

Also remember... Stop comparing Brawl to Melee. They are totally different games.

 

[Blatherskite]

That link says nothing about fast falling being removed, and I seriously doubt that they removed it. As for L-cancel, let's see a post by Gimpy confirming the link, since he's the source.

And Brawl and Melee are not totally different games. I wish people would stop spewing this rhetoric. Brawl is essentially Melee with prettier graphics, more characters, more stages, more items, etc. Basically, Brawl is just more of Melee with a couple of minor tweaks to the gameplay, such as the removal of the meta game. har har

 

[Link he come to town...]

I think of Brawl for like the original smash actually, and I think it is actually likely that they removed the new L-cancelling, just because of what they did so far. If they do remove lag cancelling it will probably also only make casual gamers better without having to learn anything if the lag is about the same as something already l cancelled.

 

[phanna]

but I also doubt things like this will change competitive smash. The better player always wins.

Truuuuuuuu

Edit: Really, in tournaments amongst good players, I see maybe 1 missed L-cancel all day. Sure technical is fun, but in terms of competitive, right now L-cancelling is only a barrier for noobs to overcome. If noobs could buy a Melee controller that auto-L-cancelled for them, they still wouldn't be able to beat you, but it would be closer - meaning you would have to focus more on the real elements of the game in order to win. So after thinking about it, I would actually like this change (but I would also like some cool tech to slightly speed things up to be discovered too, just nothing as easy as hitting L in a 9 frame window before landing).

Speaking of frames, would Brawl be 60 per second just like Melee...?

 

[Aerozeke]

Well, we can't really know for sure until Gimpyfish himself confirms it for us...

Anyway, it's not so much the removal of l-cancel that I'm concerned about--but rather, what it means for the community. If they [Sakurai and co.] are actively looking for glitches/exploits/possible ATs and removing them, it doesn't look so good for us. Finding new ATs will be more difficult because they have had time to "polish up" the game and remove much of the glitches.

They are dumbing the game down to appeal to casuals, in other words. There will still be noobs and pros... but the gap will be less significant. A less technical metagame means less room for improvement and thus less replayability, and much of the reason Melee lasted so long for me was because of all the advanced techniques and competitive scene. Very lame.

Speaking of frames, would Brawl be 60 per second just like Melee...?

Yes, the game is confirmed to run at 60 fps.

 

[Blue sHell]

Truuuuuuuu

Edit: Really, in tournaments amongst good players, I see maybe 1 missed L-cancel all day. Sure technical is fun, but in terms of competitive, right now L-cancelling is only a barrier for noobs to overcome. If noobs could buy a Melee controller that auto-L-cancelled for them, they still wouldn't be able to beat you, but it would be closer - meaning you would have to focus more on the real elements of the game in order to win.

Exactly phanna. We have already seen that all aerials look like they have been auto-L-Canceled so the taking away of L canceling won't take away from anyone's combo game either. This whole new "fast fall before aerial" to eliminate ALL lag once so ever in my honest opinion should be taken out because it'd reduce the usefulness of shieldgrabbing and shields in general. Think about it. If there was no lag after aerials it'd be the barbaric shield pressure game SSB64 was where if you landed an aerial on someone's shield you could grab THEM after it because of their shield stun.

It would be nice in some ways though because you have to fastfall first so it'd take a little longer to actually do because you'd have to peak your shorthop before actually aerialing with no lag. So basically it'd be a tradeoff between "Should I wait a bit in the air to L-cancel this and have no lag, or should I jump and aerial immediately for mindgames/combos/blahblah so on".

Overall though since the decreased landing lag in general, no, i wouldn't mind if L-canceling was gone. It'd just be more simplified but regardless it'd be the same aerial game as in Melee.

I just really hope this NEW L-cancel is gone that cuts all lag out. It'd be an only offensive game if it were to happen. Defense would just suck.

 

[DarkDragoon]

>.> My theory is...
That Gimpy's japan friend...
Didn't know how to do it right.
So we don't have any confirmation.
-DD

 

[Gimpyfish62]

yes, the new l cancel was removed.

i didn't post anything because i didn't think you people would necessarily accept the evidence

a friend of mine (sillyfox) is in the same crew with kei, a japanese smasher. (skypal is a crew name)

he went to the whobby and one of his matches tried to l cancel the entire match using link, and that was all he did, trying to use the method we found at e for all even.

it was removed, there is no l cancel in brawl
i've known for some time, i posted in the back room about it but not here haha

 

[Turtlefox]

Imagine it this way:

Let's say L-Cancelling was NEVER discovered (either was wavedashing). People would enjoy Smash just as much. Seriously though, they would STUPID to remove fast falling! I think Smashers have problems to adaptation. See, now you can actually play Smash considering the fact that these glitches have been removed. Brawl is indeed less technical, but Melee was not intended to be technical to begin with!

L-Cancelling is not a glitch.

 

[Aerozeke]

Wavedashing down, l-cancelling down... DASH DANCING YOU'RE NEXT!!
jk

Anyway, thanks Gimpy. Indeed, it doesn't look so good for competitive smash, but I still have my hopes up. Thread over.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

it doesn't look good for TECHNICAL smash

let's not confuse our terms here

tech =/= competitive

 

[slikvik]

it doesn't look good for TECHNICAL smash

let's not confuse our terms here

tech =/= competitive

I dunno Gimpy. The technical aspect was half of it. L-cancelling was a means of speeding up the game. It allowed for a decent shield pressure game. You could avoid shield grabs which are spammed at low level play in 64 and melee. It made garbage characters like Bowser even somewhat usable. Its removal slows down the game immensely at the competitive level. I see people in the thread saying that maybe the lag was reduced enough so that it is a sort of auto-cancel. I seriously doubt that. Maybe you can clear that up a little...

 

[boxelder]

Lack of L-canceling could add complexity

Now players will have to be more conscious of the lag following each move and more strategic in choosing their ariels. With L-canceling you're really removing one of the games ballance aspects, which is lag after a move. L canceling could very well take away more than it adds in the long run. In mele you can still combo without L-canceling, and with Brawl's reducded lag times overall I'm sure a little lag after powerful finishing moves won't break things.

As someone whos played numerous games competetively over many iterations I'd advise everyone to avoid panicing. When Quake 3 came out all the Quake 2 pros complained how it was dumbed down because it didn't have glitchy stuff like doubble jumping, but now anyone with a clue can see that Quake 3 is a far better game. This series is made by people who love it, like Qauke, and Brawl with make Mele look old and busted just like mele did to 64. keep faith!

 

[Teeb147]

Why does everyone think L-cancelling is needed to speed up the game?? All moves have generally less lag, so it's sped up, you just dont have to go out of your way to cancel it.. it's great!

NO L_CANCEL = BETTER

 

[Kel]

Since we're throwing around definitions, I just want everyone to know what L-canceling is.

K, so everyone knows that Marth's dtilt or Pikachu's headbutt (jab/ A button) can go really fast, but then lag a lot when you stop pressing the buttons. Right? Well, that's because those moves have INTERRUPTIBLE AS SOON AS FRAMES with itself. IASA frames are used to stop an animation to do something else, in the examples given to do the move again. Well when you hit shield when you land from an arial you also have IASA. That's how L-canceling works. You're interrupting your arial because the game thinks you want your shield to come out earlier.

blah blah glitches, not supposed to be played like that. Whatever, I'm not arguing anything. I'm just saying that's how l-canceling worked. Roll around and Dsmash with items for all I care.

 

[Egret]

You can still press L or R every time you land from an aerial if you feel better with L-canceling, you just don't need too.

 

[xylem]

I dunno Gimpy. The technical aspect was half of it. L-cancelling was a means of speeding up the game. It allowed for a decent shield pressure game. You could avoid shield grabs which are spammed at low level play in 64 and melee. It made garbage characters like Bowser even somewhat usable. Its removal slows down the game immensely at the competitive level. I see people in the thread saying that maybe the lag was reduced enough so that it is a sort of auto-cancel. I seriously doubt that. Maybe you can clear that up a little...

I'm inclined to agree, the way pros can keep up the pressure without caving under pressure themselves is a big part of what makes competitive melee entertaining and addictive. Personally I've come to terms with the fact that the smash metagame is all but dead in brawl. but look on the bright side, at least you won't have to go to tourneys to get the competitive experience . Sakurai's a pretty sharp guy, I'm sure he'll succeed in turning brawl into the egalitarian fairyland where everyone has an equal shot at victory. you know what he really needs to fix also? items. I mean come on you can turn them off and that's ********, items should be on all the time.

on a more serious note, because of brawl's *********** competitive melee will probably be in vogue for at the very least another year, so enjoy it while you can. unfortunately now I gotta hear johns like "so what you beat me at melee, brawl is where it's at son!" ugh...