L-Canceling

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

You're reading it incorrectly is what is happening.

What I am saying is that both sides, the pro and anti L-Cancelling 'parties' if you will, have in my opinion made legitimate points for its inclusion and exclusion. And I say this as a 'semi-pro' L-Cancelling player myself. Logistically I think the anti-L-Cancelling players have better arguments because simply put the mechanic is a matter of player preference and direction by the development team, like I've previously stated, so you can't really make a solid claim for why it has to be in. Despite this though, in my observation, the people who have the biggest problem with L-Cancelling (and usually the people with the poorest arguments) are those who fall under what I described as casual competitive players. This is pretty much for the same reasons why these players will typically have complaints about Melee overall as being too mechanically demanding, just that L-Cancelling is easier to isolate and attack because people smarter or more competitively involved or inclined then them are making legitimate cases against L-Cancelling that coincides with their sentiments that they can parrot and bandwagon.

tl;dr, casual-competitive players usually hate the mechanic the most with the least amount rationale.

Edit: Just so I try to make it clearer, another way to put it is this. A casual competitive player getting trashed by a veteran player because they have a handle on how to L-Cancel, in and of itself, is not a reasonable merit to hate L-Cancelling any more than a bad player in Brawl getting trashed by Meta Knight from an experienced player is to hate Meta Knight. And while there are good, logical reasons to dislike both of them as inclusions in the Smash series, the ones who argue loudest against both are usually the casual competitive players who got trashed by either, and they usually don't have good reasons for their position, or they rely on the arguments of others more experience than they are without understanding why those reasons are legitimate.

I gotcha. I'm sorry for the vitrol of my latest posts then. I misunderstood your post and assumed it to be an attack on the anti-L cancelling side, and for that, I do apologize. You were speaking of those who didn't like L-cancelling for literally no reason, or very obviously transparent reasons, and for that, I can totally understand where you're coming from. Yeesh, boy is my face red. I made myself seem like an idiot, XD.

 

[RODO]

I think the people who want L-cancelling like it because it gives them more control over their characters in the sense that they can follow up combos more than they can without L-cancelling. If it comes back then they know for sure that they will have more control over their characters again. If Smash 4 by default made it easier to follow up on combos, however, then L-cancelling would probably be deemed as unnecessary. It all depends on how much Smash 4 gives us control over our character's actions.

 

[Hitzel]

I think the people who want L-cancelling like it because it gives them more control over their characters in the sense that they can follow up combos more than they can without L-cancelling. If it comes back then they know for sure that they will have more control over their characters again. If Smash 4 by default made it easier to follow up on combos, however, then L-cancelling would probably be deemed as unnecessary. It all depends on how much Smash 4 gives us control over our character's actions.

Well, in other fighting games where there is no/little landing lag on jumping normals, no one ever says "I wish this game had L-Canceling!" So there's something.

A lot of people simply like the fact that L-Canceling makes the game harder to be good at. I think that's potentially destructive but I do understand why people like getting good at games like that. Canceling animations in games is just fun in general.

Unfortunately, the execution barrier is too high for me to play Melee, simple as that. I have pretty terrible execution and limited free time. I can only pick so many games to put in the work towards getting good at, and while Smash is awesome, Melee isn't at the top of my list. I'm better off playing something else and watching a Melee tournament from time to time.

So yeah... people can take that however they want to. I'm not trying to argue anything, just share my perspective.

 

[RODO]

I think the people who want L-cancelling like it because it gives them more control over their characters in the sense that they can follow up combos more than they can without L-cancelling. If it comes back then they know for sure that they will have more control over their characters again. If Smash 4 by default made it easier to follow up on combos, however, then L-cancelling would probably be deemed as unnecessary. It all depends on how much Smash 4 gives us control over our character's actions.

Well, in other fighting games where there is no/little landing lag on jumping normals, no one ever says "I wish this game had L-Canceling!" So there's something.

A lot of people simply like the fact that L-Canceling makes the game harder to be good at. I think that's rather destructive but I do understand why people like getting good at games like that.

Unfortunately, the execution barrier is too high for me to play Melee, simple as that. I have pretty terrible execution and limited free time. I can only pick so many games to put in the work towards getting good at, and while Smash is awesome, Melee isn't at the top of my list. I'm better off playing something else and watching a Melee tournament from time to time.

So yeah... people can take that however they want to. I'm not trying to argue anything, just share my perspective.

You know I might have been one of those people too. I always thought it was an unnecessary addition but man does it feel good when I pull it off. Something about it just feels right to do, idk.

 

[Hitzel]

You know I might have been one of those people too. I always thought it was an unnecessary addition but man does it feel good when I pull it off. Something about it just feels right to do, idk.

Yeah I don't doubt that it's really fun. I play Marvel, a game where animations are being canceled all game long. It may not be quite as difficult, but it still feels good. I mean... there's a reason why most fighting games have animation cancels to some degree. It's fun to do.

Melee is what it is, and it's a good game. I don't think L-Canceling is unnecessary in Melee, but I would question its inclusion in future Smash games unless there was a larger window to hit the shield button.

 

[Ulevo]

I think the people who want L-cancelling like it because it gives them more control over their characters in the sense that they can follow up combos more than they can without L-cancelling. If it comes back then they know for sure that they will have more control over their characters again. If Smash 4 by default made it easier to follow up on combos, however, then L-cancelling would probably be deemed as unnecessary. It all depends on how much Smash 4 gives us control over our character's actions.

It doesn't give you more control over your character. I mean, it does, but if landing lag was automatically halved for everyone it would amount to the same thing. It's more or less just a mechanic that is satisfying to have. It's like landing a skill shot in League of Legends, or landing a headshot in a FPS. These things might not be super difficult to do, but it feels satisfying when you accomplish it. It's like, "Yeah! I did it!" or "I'm doing well, I'm not dropping my L-Cancels!" As far as tangible depth is concerned, there is none. But it creates artificial interactions in the game that make it satisfying to the player. The trade-off argument of course is that having it is unnecessary, and that it isolates a portion of the player base that can't do it. This is the argument I don't buy because even though it is unnecessary to have, I don't think it's out of the realm for anyone to learn. It's a single button input, no more complicated then using the C-Stick to smash, L/R/Z to tech, or down to fast fall, and if someone like Broly can do it then I have a hard time swallowing the excuses other people make.

Now, I'll do the anti L-Cancelling group a favor and give them a bone. Melee isn't a difficult game mechanically because the commands are hard to do, it's difficult because of how many inputs you need to make in the short amount of time. You don't need fast hands in Street Fighter, for example, you just need conditioned hands that are trained. However, in Melee that isn't good enough. If your hands are not fast, you will be mechanically limited. And of course, one way to address this is by limiting the amount of inputs a player needs to make per second. From a designer perspective, if you wanted to lower the actions per second needed to play the game on any given skill level, removing L-Cancelling is the perfect place to start.

 

[RODO]

It doesn't give you more control over your character. I mean, it does, but if landing lag was automatically halved for everyone it would amount to the same thing. It's more or less just a mechanic that is satisfying to have. It's like landing a skill shot in League of Legends, or landing a headshot in a FPS. These things might not be super difficult to do, but it feels satisfying when you accomplish it. It's like, "Yeah! I did it!" or "I'm doing well, I'm not dropping my L-Cancels!" As far as tangible depth is concerned, there is none. But it creates artificial interactions in the game that make it satisfying to the player. The trade-off argument of course is that having it is unnecessary, and that it isolates a portion of the player base that can't do it. This is the argument I don't buy because even though it is unnecessary to have, I don't think it's out of the realm for anyone to learn. It's a single button input, no more complicated then using the C-Stick to smash, L/R/Z to tech, or down to fast fall, and if someone like Broly can do it then I have a hard time swallowing the excuses other people make.

I agree completely.

 

[Hitzel]

It's a single button input, no more complicated then using the C-Stick to smash, L/R/Z to tech, or down to fast fall, and if someone like Broly can do it then I have a hard time swallowing the excuses other people make.

What is Melee's framerate, and how many frames do you have to successfully L-cancel?

I was under the impression that it's 60FPS and you have a 1-frame window to L-Cancel.

 

[RODO]

Wow that Broly video tho...what a beast.

 

[Ulevo]

What is Melee's framerate, and how many frames do you have to successfully L-cancel?

I was under the impression that it's 60FPS and you have a 1-frame window to L-Cancel.

Nah, it's definitely way more generous. It's 6 frames. If I remember correctly, 6 frames is supposed to be the least amount of time a person is capable of reacting to an action spontaneously in a fighting game on the fly, so a planned action like L-Cancelling (particularly one that gives you a method of manipulating when that 6 frame time window occurs) is more than reasonable.

To give people some insight for those of you who maybe don't L-Cancel in Melee, or haven't tried. Just speaking on my own personal experience, I'm not a mechanical player by any means. I can't play Fox or Falco or Ice Climbers (I've never wanted to learn them), and there are certain actions I'll flop up on from time to time. I'll sometimes full jump instead of short hop on Sheik for example. But if there's one thing I never screw up, it's L-Cancels. I pretty much do it flawlessly every single time. I probably miss an L-Cancel less often than I miss a tech, and most of you are accustomed to how tech timing feels, so its very rare. And there are different timings for L-Cancelling too, since the window for you to L-Cancel if you do a whiffed aerial vs an aerial that hits the opponent vs an aerial that hits the enemies shield will all be different thanks to the different durations of lag when/if you hit them. I don't screw it up regardless if the aerial is empty, hits, or hits a shield. It's pretty natural. I also don't play much since I don't have my Wii set up and the people I could play with are on busy schedules. This is all based off of natural feeling rather than practice, and a lot of it I developed from playing Project M, not Melee.

 

[mimgrim]

What is Melee's framerate, and how many frames do you have to successfully L-cancel?

I was under the impression that it's 60FPS and you have a 1-frame window to L-Cancel.

You have a 7 frame window to L-cancel in Melee.

64 had an 11 frame window.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I think you should be able to press L or R during any time mid aerial and when you land on the ground the landing lag is halfed.

I'm also down for just cutting lag on aerials , but landing animations for all the characters would have to be reworked to make it flow organically or it would look weird. Like if Link did a Dair...

L-Cancel: Oh ok, pressing shield sped the animation up

Auto-Cancel (No redesigned animation): What the hell just happened? Duuuuumb...

Auto-Cancel (Redesigned animation): Oh ****! Link's so fast now! My boy ain't playin' games!

Every action has an equal or opposite reaction. I feel like that's what makes L-canceling work. I think some landing animations have to be reworked though. Samus' Uair in Brawl still weirds me out, though.

 

[yahooda]

L-canceling may be returning in some form for Sm4sh based on this trailer, if you watch Mega Man after he gets thrown by Mario at 0:09 he recovers in only several frames and even flashes white briefly. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about this, but it looks a lot like an l-cancel to me.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

my problem with l canceling is not executing it. its pretty easy.
its more along the lines that i have no reason to not use it. Its a useless tech barrier.
I would like it to give me a reason to not use l canceling then ill be fine.( like you can't guard or something)
something that makes you hesitate using l canceling. so it's not all muscle memory.

 

[yahooda]

my problem with l canceling is not executing it. its pretty easy.
its more along the lines that i have no reason to to use it. Its a useless tech barrier.
I would like it to give me a reason to not use l canceling then ill be fine.( like you can't guard or something)
something that makes you hesitate using l canceling. so it's not all muscle memory.

I think that sounds like a pretty cool idea. It would add some more strategy to the game, which I definitely support. It would also be pretty interesting and would help make Smash 4 stand out from the other Smash games in the competitive scene.

 

[RODO]

L-canceling may be returning in some form for Sm4sh based on this trailer, if you watch Mega Man after he gets thrown by Mario at 0:09 he recovers in only several frames and even flashes white briefly. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about this, but it looks a lot like an l-cancel to me.

That's just a teched landing

 

[yahooda]

That's just a teched landing

I guess you're right, yeah. I've been analysing so many of the trailers for so long looking for l-cancels that I guess I mistook a tech for one. At least we know teching is still in the game

 

[J1NG]

my problem with l canceling is not executing it. its pretty easy.
its more along the lines that i have no reason to not use it. Its a useless tech barrier.
I would like it to give me a reason to not use l canceling then ill be fine.( like you can't guard or something)
something that makes you hesitate using l canceling. so it's not all muscle memory.

...
Again, useless is not the correct word. Pressing L or R upon landing has a significant use.
What you mean to say is that it is strategically empty, or binary.
As for the ideas that create strategic choices of when to use L-Cancelling, I don't really like any of the ones that I've seen.
I've suggested that some(if not all) aerials have landing lag, and that the way you would L-Cancel is by basically having a limited form of Turbo mode from Project M, where(if I'm not mistaken) you can cancel an attack with literally anything. I would limit this to one cancel per combo string, which the game keeps track of in training mode(and may as well do so in actual play).
So, as I've said numerous times in the past, you would perform an aerial, land on the ground, and cancel it a la turbo mode. It would be easier since turbo mode basically removes the L/R input, unless you need to cancel into a standing state where L/R would still be useful. I imagine that pressing L or R upon landing would still do the same thing, and if the aerial didn't connect, the limit on cancelling could carry over into the next attack/combo string.

 

[LancerStaff]

...
Again, useless is not the correct word. Pressing L or R upon landing has a significant use.
What you mean to say is that it is strategically empty, or binary.
As for the ideas that create strategic choices of when to use L-Cancelling, I don't really like any of the ones that I've seen.
I've suggested that some(if not all) aerials have landing lag, and that the way you would L-Cancel is by basically having a limited form of Turbo mode from Project M, where(if I'm not mistaken) you can cancel an attack with literally anything. I would limit this to one cancel per combo string, which the game keeps track of in training mode(and may as well do so in actual play).
So, as I've said numerous times in the past, you would perform an aerial, land on the ground, and cancel it a la turbo mode. It would be easier since turbo mode basically removes the L/R input, unless you need to cancel into a standing state where L/R would still be useful. I imagine that pressing L or R upon landing would still do the same thing, and if the aerial didn't connect, the limit on cancelling could carry over into the next attack/combo string.

Sounds awfully un-smashy.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

...
Again, useless is not the correct word. Pressing L or R upon landing has a significant use.
What you mean to say is that it is strategically empty, or binary.
As for the ideas that create strategic choices of when to use L-Cancelling, I don't really like any of the ones that I've seen.
I've suggested that some(if not all) aerials have landing lag, and that the way you would L-Cancel is by basically having a limited form of Turbo mode from Project M, where(if I'm not mistaken) you can cancel an attack with literally anything. I would limit this to one cancel per combo string, which the game keeps track of in training mode(and may as well do so in actual play).
So, as I've said numerous times in the past, you would perform an aerial, land on the ground, and cancel it a la turbo mode. It would be easier since turbo mode basically removes the L/R input, unless you need to cancel into a standing state where L/R would still be useful. I imagine that pressing L or R upon landing would still do the same thing, and if the aerial didn't connect, the limit on cancelling could carry over into the next attack/combo string.

I just need a reason to not use it.
If they can't figure one out just make landing lag alot less frames.

 

[J1NG]

Sounds awfully un-smashy.

I personally would love to see it in action, even if it was a total disaster.

I just need a reason to not use it.

Same here, I was thinking that the incentive to not L-Cancel would come from its limit to one per string, so if you cancel an aerial but don't hit anyone, you cannot cancel again until you make an opponent flinch.
Once per combo string isn't that hard to keep track of, and as an accessible technique, it is something that I think even the most inexperienced players could discover just by mashing buttons. It also creates interesting patterns of attack, similar to how Melee Fox's Reflector allowed itself to be jump cancelled. For example, imagine instantly cancelling Link's dash attack into a roll, or Samus's down tilt into a jump.
One clarification that I might make is that certain B attacks cannot be cancelled unless they hit an opponent so as to prevent their abuse in recoveries.
But, I might also only allow the cancel a three frame window of execution upon some sort of contact with a surface or player object as a way of giving players that dose of tech skill that Melee's L-Cancel is lauded for.
*Edit: I apologize if this sort of thing deviates from the original discussion a bit too much. I have a habit of snowballing my ideas.

 

[LancerStaff]

From a thread we were admittedly derailing...

A dumb and false equivocation. Either show your work on how L-Canceling works for every move to show that only 1% of the time or admit you are just making up numbers solely to support your own claims based on your own opinions.


Making up more stupid non factual statements here. I don't even know what this was meant to rebuke because it's random and dumb. My main argument is that because some players don't use L canceling doesn't mean you should take L-Canceling away from the people who love using it.


DID MY FALSE EQUIVOCATIONS AND MADE UP STATISTIC NOT CONVINCE YOU? WELL, IM SURE MAKING UP A FAKE REALITY CERTAINLY WILL, BECAUSE A FAKE, PARALLEL UNIVERSE WHICH IS DIFFERENT AND THUS HAVE NO BEARING ON THE ARGUMENT WILL PROVE MY POINT. WHY AM I SHOUTING? I'M NOT MY CAP LOCK IS BROKEN.

Well now, if you want true numbers, I'll produce them. All I request is a list moves that can be negatively effected by L-canceling in Melee, because the skill comes in here with making the right choice for the situation, and all other moves aren't negatively effected so they don't require skill in making the choice to L-cancel.

People want L-canceling because it requires skill, no? These mechanics lessen the amount of skill required marginally. Is removing tech barriers good or bad? And I don't want to be forced to use L-canceling to compete. Arguing for L-canceling to return because people want it is lopsided because other people don't want it for one reason or another. This isn't a character or stage you can ignore, this effects every remotely competitive match.

You failed to answer my question or properly rebuff it.

 

[Riposte__]

From a thread we were admittedly derailing...

A.K.A A thread we where all perfectly happy talking about the subject till you came in whining about L-Canceling

Well now, if you want true numbers, I'll produce them. All I request is a list moves that can be negatively effected by L-canceling in Melee, because the skill comes in here with making the right choice for the situation, and all other moves aren't negatively effected so they don't require skill in making the choice to L-cancel.

That's good for a laugh. I'd like the videos of you going through every move and doing ALL the moves and ALL the situation you can L-Cancel them in. you wont because you are a coward that makes up statistics, but it would be funny to me if you tired.

People want L-canceling because it requires skill, no?

No. People want L-Canceling because it removes lag off of attacks making the game play faster making it more exciting with combos possibilities that you couldn't do with out L-Canceling.

You failed to answer my question or properly rebuff it.

Your 'argument' is false equivocations and made up statistics, and needs to be rebuffed as much as if some one said 'sunlight is black'.

 

[LancerStaff]

A.K.A A thread we where all perfectly happy talking about the subject till you came in whining about L-Canceling




That's good for a laugh. I'd like the videos of you going through every move and doing ALL the moves and ALL the situation you can L-Cancel them in. you wont because you are a coward that makes up statistics, but it would be funny to me if you tired.


No. People want L-Canceling because it removes lag off of attacks making the game play faster making it more exciting with combos possibilities that you couldn't do with out L-Canceling.


Your 'argument' is false equivocations and made up statistics, and needs to be rebuffed as much as if some one said 'sunlight is black'.

Takes two to tango, eh?

Who said anything about me making videos? I asked you to make a list, remember?
But let's see here...
There are 26 characters in Melee, with 5 aerials apeice. (I'll ignore zairs for now.) [26x5=130 aerials]
So if there's only one move negatively effected by L-canceling, that's a little less then a percent. Two is a bit less then two. If there was even two moves negatively effected, I'd be pretty close to being right with my phony numbers, and that's with the math in favor of making L-canceling seem to require skill. What if I factored in Specials? Zairs? Grounded A moves? Grabs? Throws? Why not count grounded and aerial Specials differently? And what about more mundane things like running and rolling? Heh, it's suddenly looking more like .1%.
26 chars x (5 airs + 3 smashes + 3 tilts + 1 jab + 4 specials = 16 moves {that I'll count for this example}) = 416 moves, so 4 to 5 moves is about a percent. I'd take it further, but I doubt there's even that many. Looks like I wasn't far off, huh?

Why not just remove some lag? Never said I disliked a simple lag reduction. Many people want L-canceling for the sake of L-canceling, just scroll up and see.

Not quite how it works. If you just ignore it, then who can really say you're not just plugging your ears and trying to save your hide? Just face it head on. If it's really as dopey as you say, you'll just plow right through, if not... Heh.

 

[Angiance]

Hey look, two crazies arguing *eats popcorn*

Oops...

 

[NickLeo]

Honestly, I like L-cancelling.
It's another thing to worry about mid combo and requires more inputs. The more buttons I have to push to do something properly makes me feel much more rewarded as a player.
The more simplified the game gets, the less fun it would be for me. Not because I'd lose some magical advantage over casuals, but because I'd feel like I've accomplished less though my own abilities.

Unfortunately, the odds of L-cancelling returning are very unlikely, but I'm not too worried, I just hope smash 4 doesn't feel as sluggish and limited as Brawl.

 

[Angiance]

I'm actually extremely confident that Smash 4 will turn out better than brawl in terms of speed

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Excellent summary by xezuru of what L-Cancelling means to competitive play, via the Smash Bros. subreddit:

L-Cancelling is the Dribbling of Smash. You master the momentum / rhythm / and timing that makes both the combo game and neutral game more dynamic. Better capability at Dribbling in BBall will give you the movement to better keep the ball in your possession and gives a way for both the holder and the opposition to challenge each-other and steal the rhythm... Nothing in a competitive sequence should be "Free".

 

[Deleted member 245254]

There's so much more to dribbling than simply being a flippant, and arbitrary action in basketball. It allows for rules and regulations that a spectator can visually enhance their observation of the game with.

It actually adds an element of the game that makes it interesting. It's also absolutely necessary to do if you don't want the whistle blown.

L-cancel isn't fundamentally interesting in the same way at all. It's not required. It's not something that can get you a penalty for not doing. It doesn't require anything other than knowing you should do it if you want an advantage.

Bad comparison IMO.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

There's so much more to dribbling than simply being a flippant, and arbitrary action in basketball. It allows for rules and regulations that a spectator can visually enhance their observation of the game with.

It actually adds an element of the game that makes it interesting. It's also absolutely necessary to do if you don't want the whistle blown.

L-cancel isn't fundamentally interesting in the same way at all. It's not required. It's not something that can get you a penalty for not doing. It doesn't require anything other than knowing you should do it if you want an advantage.

Bad comparison IMO.

I'm not sure where your context for requirement is coming from. There are plenty of other advanced techniques used regularly that aren't bound to any kind of penalizing rule but are still necessary to be successful (chains, DACUS, character techs, wavedashing/landing, out of shields, di'ing, hitstun cancelling). Dribbling wasn't made with spectators or regulations in mind. Dribbling prevents players from clutching the ball into their chest and then cannonballing through the court.

L-Cancelling is interesting but maybe you've never played at a level to see first hand what a missed L-Cancel will do. If you're chaining someone into a Falcon Knee of Justice, whiff (lol), then miss the L-Cancel, then you are set up for potential punishment when the enemy comes out of hitstun, in practice making failure a penalizing experience after all. Maintaining control of your character is as important as maintaining control of the ball in basketball, and in non-Brawl games L-Cancelling is a part of that. There's literally no changing that if you want to be successful, so this is also in practice as much of a requirement as dribbling is in basketball.

Having L-Cancelling is not a bottom line for me. I could take it or leave it. I actually played for many years without having experienced what the difference L-Cancelling can have on the game (I don't think the auto-L's in Brawl+ count). L-Cancelling can be mechanically dull but it still has an impact on the game. However, know this: there are maybe 3 to 4x as many combined Melee/PM players than Brawl (and we're also talking about a player base that will kick your (or my) ass with or without L-Cancelling) and they all play those games instead of Brawl for a reason. It's not exclusively for L-Cancelling, but L-Cancelling is part of that reason. If players genuinely didn't want to play with L-Cancelling, then I don't think it would be in Project M and the game just wouldn't be as successful as it is.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I'm not sure where your context for requirement is coming from. There are plenty of other advanced techniques used regularly that aren't bound to any kind of penalizing rule but are still necessary to be successful (chains, DACUS, character techs, wavedashing/landing, out of shields, di'ing, hitstun cancelling). Dribbling wasn't made with spectators or regulations in mind. Dribbling prevents players from clutching the ball into their chest and then cannonballing through the court.

That's what I meant by saying that there's more to dribbling than that comparison gives it credit. My context for it as a requirement is that you literally cannot function in Basketball without knowing how to dribble. You show me a player who's function is devoid of dribbling in Basketball, I will place my foot directly in my mouth, but I'm thinking that isn't a thing.

The l-cancel technique is just there to be used if you wanna, but it's not really an option in pretty much 100% of cases at the competitive level. This creates a divide between casual and competitive players that doesn't need to exist.

L-Cancelling is interesting but maybe you've never played at a level to see first hand what a missed L-Cancel will do. If you're chaining someone into a Falcon Knee of Justice, whiff (lol), then miss the L-Cancel, then you are set up for potential punishment when the enemy comes out of hitstun, in practice making failure a penalizing experience after all. Maintaining control of your character is as important as maintaining control of the ball in basketball, and in non-Brawl games L-Cancelling is a part of that. There's literally no changing that if you want to be successful, so this is also in practice as much of a requirement as dribbling is in basketball.

I know exactly what L-Cancel is capable of doing and not doing to your game. I play Sonic often a lot lately in Project M, and I would find him nigh unplayable without being able to l-cancel the drop kick.

I also don't think it would change the depth of the game if it removed the need for me to process that input for every single dive kick.

Having L-Cancelling is not a bottom line for me. I could take it or leave it. I actually played for many years without having experienced what the difference L-Cancelling can have on the game (I don't think the auto-L's in Brawl+ count). L-Cancelling can be mechanically dull but it still has an impact on the game. However, know this: there are maybe 3 to 4x as many combined Melee/PM players than Brawl (and we're also talking about a player base that will kick your (or my) *** with or without L-Cancelling) and they all play those games instead of Brawl for a reason. It's not exclusively for L-Cancelling, but L-Cancelling is part of that reason. If players genuinely didn't want to play with L-Cancelling, then I don't think it would be in Project M and the game just wouldn't be as successful as it is.

I just have this vision of a Smash that is easy to play, but difficult to master, the difficult part being the spacing, mind games, and choices you make on the field. I'm not unfamiliar with difficult inputs but I'm also not a big fan of them, and I've played games with massively difficult inputs for the right combos that take infinite amounts of practice like Blazblue.

I just don't think it's necessary for a fun, Nintendo-based fighter. It's not even necessary for the combat to be deep. It just seems extraneous and people have grown a liking to it simply because it functionally makes things "harder", and these days people seem to be all about not wanting things to be easier for new players, which is in-directly killing pro-gaming and pro-gaming spectator-ship.

 

[D-idara]

I just don't think it's necessary for a fun, Nintendo-based fighter. It's not even necessary for the combat to be deep. It just seems extraneous and people have grown a liking to it simply because it functionally makes things "harder", and these days people seem to be all about not wanting things to be easier for new players, which is in-directly killing pro-gaming and pro-gaming spectator-ship.

Well...nowadays people are using actual player-frustration to market games (Dark Souls much...?). It's all part of the 'I'm too hardcore to be casual' mentality that has taken over the videogame world, what's wrong with begginers being able to stand a chance without dedicating years of their life to learning and utilizing the commands? I understand that practice must be an actual thing, but why can't that practice be for mindgames, reading and spacing? What's exactly the point of separating both sides with arbitrary barriers? To 'separate the child from the men'? Which IS an etilist, toxic mentality, BTW.

I'm going to keep using the Pokemon argument, the Pokemon franchise brought down almost all of the tech barriers having to do with competitive battling and that only made the game much better and more accessible, people can now spend more time focusing on their strategizing rather than tiresome, annoying, slow EV training and breeding, now people can focus on the actual game, which should be the point...and yes, I don't consider Practice Mode as actually playing the game.

If players genuinely didn't want to play with L-Cancelling, then I don't think it would be in Project M and the game just wouldn't be as successful as it is.

Project M would be miles better if they dropped L-Cancel and kept Wavedash.

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

Seeing our there are 9 pages of this and im a lazy ****, ima go right into my "argument"

Kirby's d-air in smash 64
L-canceled would let you go into other moves very easily, namely up-tlt.
BUT if you didnt l-cancel it, he had a final hitbox that came out when he slammed into the ground, doing a semi weak sideways attack like a d-smash

People argue that L-canceling needs to just "always happen" (I.E. just short landing lag on every aerial attack and that it is something that no player ever doesn't want to do)

Kirby's d-air showed that you can easily have added depth to l-canceling. having a sort of landing hitbox instead of just landing time.
Now if all aerial moves had some sort of landing hitbox this would change everything, maybe sometimes you'd want to get that last hit to push them off the edge slightly, but doing so wouldnt let you go into a grab easily, where as l-canceling gives you the grab attempt.


TL;DR
Kirby's d-air in smash 64 had a hitbox that came out only when you did NOT l-cancel, thus adding player depth to the mechanic.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Seeing our there are 9 pages of this and im a lazy ****, ima go right into my "argument"

Kirby's d-air in smash 64
L-canceled would let you go into other moves very easily, namely up-tlt.
BUT if you didnt l-cancel it, he had a final hitbox that came out when he slammed into the ground, doing a semi weak sideways attack like a d-smash

People argue that L-canceling needs to just "always happen" (I.E. just short landing lag on every aerial attack and that it is something that no player ever doesn't want to do)

Kirby's d-air showed that you can easily have added depth to l-canceling. having a sort of landing hitbox instead of just landing time.
Now if all aerial moves had some sort of landing hitbox this would change everything, maybe sometimes you'd want to get that last hit to push them off the edge slightly, but doing so wouldnt let you go into a grab easily, where as l-canceling gives you the grab attempt.


TL;DR
Kirby's d-air in smash 64 had a hitbox that came out only when you did NOT l-cancel, thus adding player depth to the mechanic.

Great, a character nobody has played within recent smash releases for a decade or more has one specific circumstance in Smash 64 where l-cancel adds a marginal bit of depth...

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

Great, a character nobody has played within recent smash releases for a decade or more has one specific circumstance in Smash 64 where l-cancel adds a marginal bit of depth...

were talking about the mechanic in general. the game/character my example come from have no relevance to the conversation.
It is simply an example of the depth it can add in an example actually used in a smash bros game.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

were talking about the mechanic in general. the game/character my example come from have no relevance to the conversation.
It is simply an example of the depth it can add in an example actually used in a smash bros game.

Can you name any other circumstance where not using l-cancel is better than using it?

 

[Tremendo Dude]

Great, a character nobody has played within recent smash releases for a decade or more has one specific circumstance in Smash 64 where l-cancel adds a marginal bit of depth...

Kirby was the second best performing character in Smash 64 with quite a few players maining him, and as far as I know quite a few people still play 64, so imma disagree with you there.

In all other instances I can think of, though, that is the only time where not L-canceling might be preferable to L-canceling. Though even then, I think not L-canceling still leaves you with less options than L-cancel would, as you could lead into another move easily from the L-canceled D-air, such as a grab or an up-tilt, which would have more combo potential than the potentially combo-dropping last hit of the D-air. (I can't say for sure, I don't play Kirby in SSB64).

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Kirby was the second best performing character in Smash 64 with quite a few players maining him, and as far as I know quite a few people still play 64, so imma disagree with you there.

That's why I said recent smash releases, as in, the previous two.

I'm very aware Kirby was top tier in 64.

In all other instances I can think of, though, that is the only time where not L-canceling might be preferable to L-canceling.

Then it's not a very good argument for l-cancel adding depth.

 

[Priap0s]

...

Every post you do you are on the offense and attack the one you respond to. Can you come with something concrete instead of just claiming things and bash on others? This isn't facebook or whatever. No one is dumb enough to not see through the Bill O'Riley arguing techniques here.

I asked you earlier to explain something further, cause I wasn't quite following. You responded:
"your argument is to ignore examples of why L-canceling is usefully and dismiss it because you don't want to use it."
This in a discussion about L-canceling, something I told you clearly, I perform with no trouble at all since forever. I even said that:
"It is not an issue for me personally, cause I've been doing it forever and like most don't find it very hard to do".
Still you go on offense and make some own weird interpretation of what I said and attack that instead of just answering when your "facts" and claims are getting questioned.

Let's keep it at a healthy conversation in here now. So lets start over: Show some facts to your claims. You can't just say "your wrong" and then call it a day. So can you please explain the Link example further and give some examples of situations where L-cancel is not optimal to do?

 

[LancerStaff]

There's absolutely no choice in L-canceling 99% of the time, so there's essentially no skill involved. Would you want to shield, fastfall, or DACUS every single moment possible? No. There's reasons to use other moves when in position to do those things. Do you want to L-cancel every moment possible? Pretty much. There's no other options. If people want the last hitbox of Roy's nair and Kirby's dair that badly in an automatic L-cancel game, just make it so pressing L adds lag (and the last hitbox) to the move instead. Requires just as much skill, but now you're only pressing the button 1% of the time.

Positives of L-canceling: It requires 'skill' (simple knowledge of the move's existence) to use.
Cons: It artificially divides casual and hardcore, it requires an extra press that could be made automatic and nobody would notice, and endlessly causes people to argue over it.

I don't see any merit in L-canceling existing.