Koopa VS Kefka -- The Endless Tournament ends! Who took home the prize?

[pawndidater2]

He also brought up how it's because of you guys that people like Soup are having nervous breakdowns and he doesn't want to go through that.

 

[Picture Perfect]

welp it's cool, gheb's devolved into ad hominem and personal attacks

 

[Picture Perfect]

@Soup: You here? I realize you're burnt out of this game too but you were with me for a little while.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

how do you guys do this ****

i don't play mafia personally or seriously (as in take stuff seriously) at all

the hell

and yeah i'll post them here

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't get it either.

Also mass vote me for a bye.

 

[Kantrip]

Removal: Gheb

I know it's sheeping, but a Gheb flip helps us no matter what he flips, even if he's somehow town.

I'll bye somebody later.

No. No it doesn't.

 

[Kantrip]

A scenario where Ryker and Gheb are both town is a very bad one numerically for us. I'll be honest in that I forgot everything about reads in this game other than Joker and WATT being town, though.

 

[Picture Perfect]

No. No it doesn't.

How so? Because of the chance that Gheb might be town? Who's scum then? Us? On a gutread?

 

[Kantrip]

I didn't say that. Yes it's dangerous because Gheb might be town, but that doesn't mean I have a better target. I just think we should be more sure before we use removal. I'd rather not use it than use it incorrectly.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Ok, imma be upfront with this since i don't really see getting it done unless I out it.

one of my personal goals is to spend a night in each of the hotel rooms. I've already roomed in room3, which was a snoozefest. Me and Watt got some stuff done last night in room1, so now i'd like to stay in PP's room next, which is room4. In order to do that, somebody's gotta go to make room.

after that, all that will be left is room2, and then I can settle down wherever I feel I can be most productive. Maybe we can even swap around to get the right people in the right rooms?

As for things that were discussed in the room last night, Watt and I decided there was a pretty good chance Rake was town. I'll try to get into that more later, cuz right now I'm sleepy tired.

 

[Picture Perfect]

I assumed from your follow-up post that was your reasoning, my bad.

But I don't see the point of that argument. You say it's dangerous because the lynchee might be town. There's a chance that any lynchee is town. Hell, you're right, there's a slight chance Gheb somehow, completely illogically might be town (because his play certainly doesn't make sense). So what? Any removal we can use will have that risk. So what's your point with it? You have to explain to me why Gheb is town or why Gheb could flip town. Don't just say "he could flip town and that's problematic." Everyone knows that.

 

[Kantrip]

The thing is this isn't a normal mafia game, and we're not talking about a lynch. Sure, removing scum would help us, but town doesn't win this game through the removal mechanic. If we remove town we just screw ourselves over way more than any mislynch in a regular game.

To convince me to use the removal mechanic, I'm going to need more than someone who is playing really badly. I want mechanical evidence that this person is scum.

 

[Super Fabulous]

I don't think there will be any. If the cop found scum the scum would be removed anyways.

I think it's a good shot to be used on Gheb. We have to use it in the first cycle anyways, so I think it's good that we use it now.

 

[Kantrip]

Scum doesn't get removed by cop until the second cycle thing with the bracket

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Lemme get to a comp before people slaughter gheb

 

[Wots All This Then?]

HI GUYS WHAT'S GOING ON

I posted my reads list in my hotel room, so I'll get onto this. What happened to the Ryker modkill, just out of my curiousity?

Post your reads inthread plz.
Ryker modkill happens at the end of the lunch phase. IIRC

Gheb was being weird in the hotel room. I said "I guess we're playing a match together" and he said he doesn't care, he doesn't play mafia anymore. Then he said Laundry, Ryker, and J suck the fun out of it.

Sounds like salty ghebtown to me.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

after that, all that will be left is room2, and then I can settle down wherever I feel I can be most productive. Maybe we can even swap around to get the right people in the right rooms?

As for things that were discussed in the room last night, Watt and I decided there was a pretty good chance Rake was town. I'll try to get into that more later, cuz right now I'm sleepy tired.

If it's fine we can do a Super fab for PJB room swap?
Also I confirm the discussion thing.

I assumed from your follow-up post that was your reasoning, my bad.

But I don't see the point of that argument. You say it's dangerous because the lynchee might be town. There's a chance that any lynchee is town. Hell, you're right, there's a slight chance Gheb somehow, completely illogically might be town (because his play certainly doesn't make sense). So what? Any removal we can use will have that risk. So what's your point with it? You have to explain to me why Gheb is town or why Gheb could flip town. Don't just say "he could flip town and that's problematic." Everyone knows that.

Why not put gheb off a day and see what happens with ryker's modkill?

I don't think there will be any. If the cop found scum the scum would be removed anyways.

I think it's a good shot to be used on Gheb. We have to use it in the first cycle anyways, so I think it's good that we use it now.

First cycle still has at least 4 more morning phases.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

The reason why I don't want to just axe gheb immediately is because I think there's a solid chance of him flipping town, and in conjunction with the ryker modkill that would be two town players out of the brackets potentially. that absolutely ****s up the numbers game, and I'd prefer to avoid that happening. Especially if ryker is town, in which case I'd want to hold off on that for at least one more day.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Can I just directly post the reads from my room, Nabe?

I have quite a lot of reads, but I want to be sure I can quote stuff directly from my room so I don't get a modkill.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

^paraphrase it, or just copy/paste it and change a few words here and there.
also Nabe is the mod haha, gheb doesn't have anything to do with it.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

I just edited that

I'll post it but paraphrase it a bit :3

 

[Thirdkoopa]

I'll add Bold's and add at least a new sentence each for everyone.

Picture Perfect I read as town, and I don't have much of a reason not to. Usually at some point within 41 pages, there would be something that would make me think "Oh wow, that person's scum" or maybe I'm just not reading enough of in-conscious play is going on. Regardless, remove of the WIFOM and you have someone who's likely town, especially because in these games it's always more likely that a person is town instead of not. (I thought someone else who was ranked obvtown by other people was a bit scummy... and then flipped VT. eh) This makes me more and more want to see Gheb's flip, because Gheb's flip will help all of us at this point, including my scumreads. This (Until later game) is probably one of the few things that could convince me with PP as scum

Super Fabulous comes pretty close; not as much, and there were probably some posts that made me rethink "WAIT, I need to slow down and read this again" but there's not much anti-town here either, and I wouldn't really be suspicious at least until we get what, two-three flips around that contradict that? I don't even think I've seen anyone try to make a case on this hydra. I haven't seen many arguments as well... so I'm a bit wary, but I'll still go with my gut

Wots is giving me town vibes, but as I said in the thread, those are vibes to not care about as much. Just because he's helping us all with how the game runs doesn't mean I'd pull him in as instant town by any means, no no no. If there was someone I'd see myself making a case on on my town list any point in the future, it'd probably be him, but there really isn't much to say. A lot of it has been helping people with the setup instead of commenting more, unlike how when I saw Super Fabulous and PP post, they did wonderful stuff. (PP did an iso of gheb, correct?) He's at least doing stuff around... And getting arguments done. I'm not particularly liking the "IF Ryker AND Gheb flip town" because that's a HUGEEEE If. I feel like there would be SOMETHING to connect the two

ryker I MISS YOU actually youre awesome to skype with waiting on your flip hope you flip scum if not we still love you <3 (where's his flip anyways? someone said he's getting modkilled) - Based on this, some of my other reads might change a slightly little, but this is the only flip that'd make me change bye ryker ):

red ryu you're awesome but i've gotta see you do more brah. I want to get a more comfortable read on you for when we're in the later stages if we both survive that long (Then again I don't see myself getting nightkilled since at least one between Super Fab/PP/Wots is town) RED RYUUUUUU get back in here and dont just comment with me on how people are mean apparently

Pawn... meh. Just meh. Never played with the guy, but could flip either way. If I had to take a bet, coasting scum Yeah, I'm sticking to this

rake posts but rake doesn't post anything i have interest in. gut read says scum, reading says town. I mean he has more substantial than pawn but meh I'll do an ISO of him if we get that far, but there's not much reason to lynch him now, yet, not much reason to keep him around. ****.

potas is scum, either scum or the most useless town i've ever read. I feel like I'd be parroting if I went further, but what I've mostly noticed is parroting, false-sheeping (trying to look like he's not sheeping), and some other garbage I'm sticking with this, in-fact, I might be willing to say kantrip/potas is my biggest scum read but I'm not sure who'd join me

gheb is probably scum with him or really derp town; i read over his ISO or whatever like a few times and I can't see any town intention. Then again, in one game, I just vigged someone I thought like that and guess what, he was derp town! Though I remember Potas deflecting Gheb. I should probably look for that. Regardless, Gheb/Potas for top two scum reads and would honestly be the most unsurprising to see at least one of them flip scum. I'm thinking a litttttle more derp town, but that's really pendant on Pawn/Rake/Potas/Soup's flips... which is a lot of flips to get for that, so I'd be down for getting some WIFOM. The only problem is if he's town, scum know this wagon is boob trapped all over the place.

soup you're ryker level useless except you're not ryker ryu or anyone else awesome well at least you have a nice avatar

ttk you're an asshole and you still are and you're an evil ******* mod, what else do i need to say? go die |:

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Also be aware I'm going to be v/la starting tomorrow afternoon for most of a week.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

First there are no NK's.
Second, Joker read?

 

[Thirdkoopa]

First there are no NK's.
Second, Joker read?

who

 

[Thirdkoopa]

oh, privatejokerbrown, gotcha

I had my read somewhere and it was mainly null.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Don't try to play us for suckers!

@blue: Both statements need citation. Nothing about WATT's posts disallows other people from making input, not even implicitly. I also don't see them attempting to force anything.
@red: Completely wrong. If what you are accusing WATT of were actually true then it would be a scumtell by all means. You also fail to explain what kind of position you are talking about when you say "such a position" and why they'd want to avoid it.
@green: Why not? In all honesty, it's you who has been making that kind of input - a lot of "captain obvious"-style statements that will either get ignored or be pointed out as such. This looks more like justifying your own play as townie rather than WATT's who really hasn't done anything you've accused him of.

First post from Gheb that's not RVS banter-ish. I liked that gheb was breaking down soups post and questioning him on it, and that he touched on more then one aspect of it here.

Eh, not so much that I want to keep things secret. It's just that I have nothing too say that you wouldn't expect me to. I mean, I could be wrong anyway given how different this game is but I think there are more effective strategies regardless - like the one with the cop I mentioned earlier. And if we can just give byes to cleared players each Day phase there's always somebody who can just skip the whole battle thing alltogether.

I can only share Kantrip's sentiments on the lack of motivation. Convincing people of one's read seems to be pretty minor unless you are very sure somebody is scum and you have a very good explanation for it. But things like town-reads or forming a majority kind of fall flat for the most part. Right now most people seem to prefer talking over the mechanics and I honestly can't see anything wrong with that right now.

I'm going to reassert my believe that PJB and Fab are town and am adding WATT to this list as well. WATT's input has been to purposeful to make him a play for one of the coming phases / cycles. As for the other two slots, I can only echo what other people have already said about them, especially PJB. His play as town is just so clearly defined and familiar that one can just tell he's being his town-self. The same holds true for the two heads of Fab.

While PP has a point that not all scumbags are inactive I wouldn't be surprised if 2 of them are. In fact, I don't see what's exactly unlikely about it and this is where I'm finding myself having issues with PP's "rant" post. Because the people he mentioned as possibly scummy for neglecting scumhunt in favor of investigating the mechanics are exactly the people who have tried to make input despite having difficulties to hunt scum in a traditional sense. I find that iffy. Why would he discourage that kind of approach without even knowing whether it's worse in the first place? I would actually claim quite the opposite and find it unsettling that his rant has gotten so much positive feedback when it's largely an attempt to discourage people who have been trying to get things done.
Personally, I would prefer the tourney cop to take a look at that slot at the end of cycle 1 to see whether he's MAF or not - if not, we have a useful clear to hand out a bye to. Seems like win-win to me. I would also like to see the cop reviewing soup's bracket matches during the match phase to prevent him from cheating. Though not as problematic a slot as PP he has done poorly enough overall that he can go asap, especially if he's matched up with PJB, Fab or WATT in the bracket.

These two posts feel like gheb just isn't sure how to play this game, which I feel like scumgheb would make sure he was much more on top of it.

Yet another thing that I think is worth thinking about is to have people change room depending on the overall opinion on their play. For example, we could have 1 room with PJB, WATT, myself and maybe fab for the generally pro-town slots to decrease chances that scum can observe our matches. If we are spot-on with our reads we can isolate scumbags into different rooms and cut down some of the info they would probably like to gain from us.

How does everybody else feel about this idea?

This was actually a pretty novel idea at the itme and It's still something I feel like we should do-don't see a reason for ghebscum to put this out there.

Like, I've read the OP a couple of time and cannot see any point where Nabe mentions that only one poisoner exists, which I think is what you are refering to.

Ghbe not knowing the game. Consider this a townslip.

The reason I have Rake as town is simply because he's not guilty of anything. Sure, he *could* be more active and stuff but he can't be considered worringly inactive in contrast to pawn, Shoco or t3k [leaving out Ryker cuz he got legit johns]. Even PPs and RRs random bursts of activity don't make them that much more active than the Rake tbqh. In terms of scuminess he's out of the pool mainly due to PoE. If I had to name 4 scumbags on the spot I'd say that soup, Kantrip, PP and Shoco are the strongest contenders right now. Rake is more on the level of Ryu - not very active, not very useful atm but very likely not scum, which in this game equals town.

Original Rake reasoning. Yes I know there's not much substantiated here, but I feel like this is a traditional gheb townread explanation.

Only comment I could find on Mafia communcation, nowhere does the OP state that they know each other.

Mafia gheb should know how his own scumteam works yes?

Actually, J was one of them people who reacted that way as well. I also think I remember pawn saying that he thinks it's unlikely that Kantrip vs soup is SvS.

I'd still like to know why. A heated argument between them two - even operating under the assumption they know each other to be scum - doesn't mean ****. So before anybody pulls out his ******** "scum or dumb" platitudes [which a.) are almost only pulled out by scum these days and b.) don't apply to me in either case] I'd like to hear a good explanation on why Kantrip / soup being on the same team is so unlikely that 4 people in unison claim that it can't be that way, that nobody except me is willing to give the idea some thought and that like 2 or 3 people immediately conclude that I'm either dumb or scum, when I'm neither.

This is a fresh input on the thread. It might be wrong, but Kantrip even said about J'd entry post into the game "this type of argument is something that hasn't even been considered yet!" and I odn't see why you wouldn't put the same logic here.(not attacking kantrip here)

The former is your fault and the latter is not true.

Everybody always reads me as scum, not because I am scum but because people lack the intelligence to look at the other side of the coin. I speak truths that the people don't want to hear so they point fingers at me and shout "he's scum". And then I flip town and people - rather than bettering themselves - will point fingers at each others and ignore all the truths I have spoken: I am town. One of PP or Shoco is very likely scum and there's a good chance that soup / Kantrip are in the mix. Also, statistically it's rather likely that we have an inactive scumbag as well.

Talk to me if you're actually interested in finding MAF and getting this game anywhere. PP is the one to talk to when you prefer petty insults, distorted facts and hypocrisy to the max though. It's sad that I even need to write these sentences but it's probably the last thing I am going to post as a player in a mafia game.

Classical Ghebtown salt here, really makes me doubt he is scum.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

oh, privatejokerbrown, gotcha

I had my read somewhere and it was mainly null.

how is joker null? like unless you're considering all mechanical discussion and actions to be null, he should be sterling silver obvtown.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

@Soup: You here? I realize you're burnt out of this game too but you were with me for a little while.

Yeah. I'm here. I think the removal on Gheb is fine. What's your plan if he's town, by the way?

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Why is the removal on gheb fine soup? Am I off basis in 1667?

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

holy ****.

Catching up now

 

[Picture Perfect]

Yeah. I'm here. I think the removal on Gheb is fine. What's your plan if he's town, by the way?

If he's somehow town, I think what I'd do in that regard is check the wagon and see what I can get from it. Depends entirely on a lot of things though.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

If he's somehow town, I think what I'd do in that regard is check the wagon and see what I can get from it. Depends entirely on a lot of things though.

What do we get connections wise if he is scum? Any ideas on that yet?

 

[Wots All This Then?]

There's actually other stuff besides connections^ but I want your opinions on the preliminaries here before I go crazy about it.

 

[Picture Perfect]

The thing is this isn't a normal mafia game, and we're not talking about a lynch. Sure, removing scum would help us, but town doesn't win this game through the removal mechanic. If we remove town we just screw ourselves over way more than any mislynch in a regular game.

I'm well aware of these things. Do you think my confidence is based in anything other than Gheb being scum?

To convince me to use the removal mechanic, I'm going to need more than someone who is playing really badly. I want mechanical evidence that this person is scum.

I'm not sure what you mean by "mechanical evidence." I gave my points on why he's scum in my ISO. Did you read it? If so, what did you disagree with?

 

[Picture Perfect]

What do we get connections wise if he is scum? Any ideas on that yet?

Actually, yes. My room talked more about it but I want things to play out naturally before I comment on it.

 

[Picture Perfect]

There's actually other stuff besides connections^ but I want your opinions on the preliminaries here before I go crazy about it.

The matches?

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Actually, yes. My room talked more about it but I want things to play out naturally before I comment on it.

Alright. Are you fine with juggling fab and joker between our rooms?

The matches?

Not what I had in mind. It revolves around gheb's ideas pertaining to the setup and the mafia faction we all yelled at him for earlier in the game.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Remove: Gheb

 

[Picture Perfect]

If it's fine we can do a Super fab for PJB room swap?
Also I confirm the discussion thing.

This is fine with me.

Why not put gheb off a day and see what happens with ryker's modkill?

Considering it, I don't think we gain anything at all from Ryker's death though. He made no connections in thread and was never here. If we nail scum, whoohoo, but if he's town, damn? I mean, it's not like we can really do anything with this.

I think we need a flip that makes connections to actually get a solid direction from this game. For me, right now, that's Gheb.